back to an endless Republicans war so 30 years in Iran over or under

@ABooksNightmare

 The Shah was probably before you were born and was a rendering of British influence, that is gone it cannot and will not ever return. But lets go with your thesis even though I consider it 100% impossible. HOW do you make this happen? What needs to take place to make your thesis happen?

Telling me that they want freedom is not WHAT HAPPENS NEXT...that is like me saying I want to play scratch golf and be 21 again, well its a nice idea but not gonna happen and its a dream, nothing else. What happens next is take your ideals and what happens next to forward those and make it happen? We said the same thing with Iraq and NOTHING HAPPENED. Its media mouthwash meant to appease lazy Americans and get them to vote for your guy come midterms. Freedom is not removal of a religious figure and leave the institution and framework in place and say FREEDOM...no that dog dont hunt. To be "free" American style you need to remove all the religion, all the men and put in white guys who are fake Christians and then you have USA religious oppression of minorities and women but not where it is legal to beat your wife and kids like it is there.

To me it is insulting and disingenuous to flower puff reality and actually say that freedom is possible because people want it and Trump is using it as smoke, freedom comes at a cost and a dedication and usually at a massive loss of life to make it happen. Freedom in the Middle East will NEVER happen, no country in the region is free, not a single one.

@ABooksNightmare

 I stated on this site what was next in a step by state post...the only thing I left off is that the Iranian people, which should be all that matters, is that they wish to have their democracy back and they want to elect their officials like we do here....they would be happy with the Shah, Reza, as their leader as they have built trust with that family...Reza had an interview last weekend with one of the news outlets and he stated the same thing that the people wish to have an election and carry forward a democracy.....

To be fair, they were never a 'democracy'.  That was kind of the whole point of such support for the revolution at the time.

Certainly, they had much more freedom.

@wallstreetcappers

 You cant say crazy things and get a pat on the back, I would like to have discussion with non-partisan intelligent people who can see past the smoke and to the fire of issues and in this case I have no idea how anyone could say things you just did or that others have regarding WHY as if because Trump says so then it is so. I call bull on his lies and I back it with truth and fact.

What exactly are you backing up with 'fact' here? It seems just your partisan opinion.

The people in Iran are not going to realize freedoms

Why not?  They had far more freedoms before this regime.  So, why it not stand to reason if they get rid of this regime they ate least can get some of those freedoms back again.  If they had them before, why can they not have them again.

For example:

Generally more freedom under the Shah.

• Women could dress freely (no mandatory hijab).
• Western culture—music, movies, nightlife—was widely allowed.
• Women gained rights such as voting, education access, and careers.
• Cities like Tehran had a very Western-style lifestyle.

After the revolution, the Islamic Republic introduced:

• Mandatory hijab laws
• Gender segregation in some settings
• Religious rules affecting public life and media. 

So in everyday lifestyle, people—especially women—often had more personal freedom before 1979.

@wallstreetcappers

 nobody in that region has freedoms except MEN and those in religious power.

Nonsense.  You cannot think of any countries that women do not have freedoms or power.

Try real hard -- because it is your least favorite country anywhere.

For example:

it’s fair to say many people in the region face significant restrictions, especially in authoritarian states.

2. But it’s false that “nobody has freedoms except men and religious elites”

That’s too broad. The Middle East is very diverse, and freedoms vary widely by country.

Examples:

• Israel – democratic system with elections, independent courts, and strong civil liberties.
• Lebanon – more open media and political pluralism (though unstable).
• Jordan and Kuwait – limited political freedoms but some elections and civic space.
• United Arab Emirates and Qatar – authoritarian politically but allow relatively more personal lifestyle freedoms.

Gender inequality is real but not absolute

Women in many Middle Eastern countries face legal or cultural discrimination, but they still participate in education, business, and politics in varying degrees. For example:

• Women attend universities and work in professions in countries like Iran, Turkey, Israel, and the Gulf states.
• Some countries have female ministers, judges, or parliament members.

True: Many Middle Eastern governments restrict political freedoms, and gender inequality is widespread.

False: It’s not accurate to say no one has freedoms except men or religious elites—freedom levels vary widely across countries and societies in the region.

@wallstreetcappers

 That is how you use facts to back up your opinion.

Not just what you 'feel' to back up your partisan opinion because you do not like someone or a country.

There are many countries in that area that are far, far better than Iran; AND, Iran used to be much, much better.

So, why do you insist they can NEVER be better again.

Arepas and tequeños Monday

Maybe khoreshtas and kebabs next week 

@Raiders22

 First off I do not consider Israel to be part of the general middle east because they were given the land not that it was theirs and they only exist due to the US backing them, the core of the middle east is the opposite in most every way from religion to resources to social structure and for sure the government structure even though Israel is not democratic it is nothing like the others, it is the wrong example for pretty much every reason possible and it would not exist without backing. The others on your list fit and your description of what they are is 100% wrong. The UAE, Qatar, Lebanon Kuwait especially these are all countries with similar construct and it is funny that you bring up those names because I was going to pose a question about what the DIFFERENCE is between most all these countries from each other, what is different between Iraq, Iran, UAE, Qatar, SA etc etc? 

I think the largest difference is resources and location and the land structure. So a few of the countries have the bounty of the resources AND location versus others but the dynamic of politics, government, social formations are all similar with very little variance. The areas with the greatest resources and wealth are more progressive and technologically advanced so SA, Qatar, UAE vs Iran and Iraq but the underlying dynamic of oppression and male dominance the existence of extremist religeon/politics is the same even with a progressive society from the access to more western features. The underlying social structure is the same the abuses are still there its like going to NYC vs Ozark Missouri, both are the US and both have structure inside a standard deviation even with the differences...that is how I identify the countries in the middle east outside of the Truman Show set which is Israel. 

No matter where you are in the region there is no universal freedom and there never can be for EVERYONE not just wealthy people and men. I have an co-worker from many years ago who moved to the UAE for a spouses job and lived there for 5-6 years and that was their experience even as expats the social construct is palpable and extreme exactly as I am describing and there is no way around it and it will never be more than it is.

So when you wax poetic about the Shah from the 70s its just a dream its the past and the present has no semblence of the past, that is gone and will never return outside of King Trump taking over the country and destroying the religion that is woven into the political and social framework and that will NEVER happen.

The best aspect of Saddam was he quelled religious differences and did not allow it to control the social fabric so Iraq will never be as progressive as it was when he was in power ever again because now religion has borged the country and that cannot be reversed IMO.

Freedom to you is one that the ultra high majority cannot and never will experience. Trump can lie and mislead all day long it will not change what is truth and what can be possible and what has absolutely no chance.

oil is at 115, asia looks for us oil to fuel energy.

iranian leader hit and wounded but is safe states son of Iranian president, secretary of war ( what the president refers to hefseth said this will be done to completion on is time table 

iraq embassy hit with drone Israel hit as well 

.... 

After intelligence briefing, democrat Chris Murphy criticizes Trump incoherent strategy which is unlikely to achieve objectives.  He claims the result would be endless war instead of regime change or end of Iran nuclear program.  Polls show most Americans have no confidence Trump make the right decisions.  No other president has started a war with so little public support.

@wallstreetcappers 

First off I do not consider Israel to be part of the general middle east because they were given the land not that it was theirs and they only exist due to the US backing them

Your lede into this cannot start like this if you are going to base things off of facts.

The lede sentence or paragraph is what you build the rest of the argument or point around.

This has to start off coherently for the rest of it to make sense.

The point that Israel is a country and is in the Middle East is just fact.

That you and many others do not like it or support it does not take away from that.  The Muslim countries, understandably, do not like it.  They simply want the entire region and the entire World converted or dead.

They were always in the area and are originally from the area.

The entire point is that they are a country that has freedom and is a Democracy.  So, it can be done in the area.

However you parse it, whether the land was ‘given’ or ‘divided’ — it was done.  There was a lot of nuance and reasoning for trying to get some ‘separation’ in the area at the time.

But many countries have been started through many various reasons.  That simply does not take away from the fact that they are now countries.

My entire point about that was that they are a country and a religion in the area that has freedoms and is a Democracy.  In fact, the entire Western world has their values, regions, and laws based from them.

As I said, there are many folks like you that are not Muslim and not from the area that feel the way you do.  But they do not fully understand why they feel this way.

You can take folks from Israel and place them in the middle of any other people in the World and they will become hated in a very short time.  We have seen this repeatedly in the past.  You could take a group of them and place them in the middle of the Inuits and they start to loathe them.

The reasons for this are multi-faceted and multi-layered.

To say the USA is the sole reason that Israel survives is also disingenious.  They survived many, many years and wars without support from the USA.  But because the USA now supports the only Democracy in the area should not be a bad thing.

It is the vitriol and hate for the entire country, people, and religion that is truly unreasonable. 

In any debate or discussion there is nothing wrong at all about conceding some points that do not affect the overall discussion.

This point really should be conceded because it does not really detract from the fact that the other peoples do have freedom issues.  

But it allows for the fact that it can be done and should be supported whenever it can be.  This can even lead into encouraging the furthering of it with Lebanon, Jordan, UAE, etc.

@wallstreetcappers

 the core of the middle east is the opposite in most every way from religion to resources to social structure and for sure the government structure even though Israel is not democratic it is nothing like the others, it is the wrong example for pretty much every reason possible and it would not exist without backing.

The very fact that they are 'opposite' of the others is the reason they have more freedom.

So, they are the EXACT example in the region to use for what can be done for the folks there.

But you are welcome to use some of the others that have more freedom.

Or you can use the fact that Iran used to have those freedoms.

@wallstreetcappers

I was going to pose a question about what the DIFFERENCE is between most all these countries from each other, what is different between Iraq, Iran, UAE, Qatar, SA etc etc? 

I think the largest difference is resources and location and the land structure.

Yes, but it is only part of the overall picture.

You can see how tourists and developers are scared away from countries that are war-prone.  

Even now the UAE makes most of its money from non-oil industries.

You can track a lot of this regional stuff all the way back to the fall of the Ottoman Empire to see how these conflicts started and have hindered progress in certain countries.

@wallstreetcappers

 No matter where you are in the region there is no universal freedom and there never can be for EVERYONE not just wealthy people and men.

In the radical Muslim countries, sure.

In the non-Muslim country, no.

In the the non-radical countries, somewhat.

That is where you strive to get progress towards more freedoms and we have certainly seen this.

So, I do not think you can confidently say, 'never'.

 That would be a sad reality when Europe is currently having to face this down and the USA soon will have to.  

Then you have parts of Africa and even Asia that are seeing it.

That is just too pessimistic of a view for me to take.

@wallstreetcappers

 So when you wax poetic about the Shah from the 70s its just a dream its the past and the present has no semblence of the past, that is gone and will never return outside of King Trump taking over the country and destroying the religion that is woven into the political and social framework and that will NEVER happen.

It is not 'waxing poetic' -- it is just the reality.

So, to say they can never return to those freedoms is also too pessimistic to me.

@wallstreetcappers

 The best aspect of Saddam was he quelled religious differences and did not allow it to control the social fabric so Iraq will never be as progressive as it was when he was in power ever again because now religion has borged the country and that cannot be reversed IMO.

When you have to pick out a 'best aspect' if a dictator and that is what you are forced to choose is not a good thing.

That is the entire point in other places that allows some of the 'freedoms'.  A lot of time it starts with 'allowing religious differences'.  You see this in the West and in Israel as the best examples.

Now, you could be correct that it cannot be reversed.  But the hope is that it can be, even if it takes a while.

@wallstreetcappers

 Freedom to you is one that the ultra high majority cannot and never will experience. Trump can lie and mislead all day long it will not change what is truth and what can be possible and what has absolutely no chance.

This is hard to consolidate with the examples of it happening over the years and in the past.

I am not sure Trump has actual thoughts on this, or cares.  That has not been a stated goal of his.

But I think your view of the region is too confining.  

You then have to ask what happens as the gradual aggression spreads into other areas.

Do they simply concede their freedoms because there is no avoidance.

I would like to hope not.

But I get how folks can take this stance.

@nature1970

oil is at 115

It isn't 

asia looks for us oil to fuel energy

This is actually a portion of the overall plan from Venezuela to Iran.

@Raiders22

 My contention is two fold, they are NOT a democracy number one, and number two they only exist due to the protection and backing of the USA and thus my Truman Show tv set analogy. Israel would be gone inside six months if the US ever were to stop allowing them to exist. There is no other example you can give regarding a faux democracy outside of the US backed and granted Israel.

Both sides want the other knocked off completely so why do you preface that as something only the Muslim countries want, I am positive you know the Bible OT and it is not a mystery that Israel in the fabric of their religion and belief structure still to this day is if you are not part of their faith and especially if you do not allow them to have what they feel is theirs, they want you dead period. Both sides share this view the only differences is ONE party has the backing of the most powerful military in the world and the other does not.

Is the US supposed to sit by and ignore the massacring of 35,000 citizens who were protesting against the way they were treated and for wanting freedom?

This is really the question. You don't have to like the war, but if you were for aide, money and weaponizing in Ukraine, how can you ignore what was taking place in January of this year when those people were killed by machine guns no less.....

No doubt something had to be done because that should not be allowed in this day and age...people in the US complain about a few deaths to protestors, where is the same compassion and anger about the death of 35,000 people in a month for essentially doing nothing but speaking out about the way they are treated.....

Some people are misguided because most in here were all for supporting corrupt Ukraine, but are heavily against supporting Israel to take out Iran's regime.... 

@wallstreetcappers

  My contention is two fold, they are NOT a democracy number one

Got it. 

Yes, they are technically what is known as parliamentary democracy.

They have several political parties.

They have the same separate branches of government that you do.

Obviously, the folks have all of the freedoms we talked about -- including speech and press, to discuss political issues.

You will not find any political scientist that really dispute their top of government.

There are some that will dispute the type, or level, it because of the tensions there -- but it is considered a democracy.

@wallstreetcappers

 number two they only exist due to the protection and backing of the USA

As, I pointed out above, they did fine well before the USA started aiding them.

But you say this as if it is a bad thing to protect them.

So what?  What is wrong with helping an ally and the only democracy in the area.

There is a certain amount of obligation that a lot of folks see in that situation.  This also would apply in other areas of the world as well and not just with Israel.

@wallstreetcappers

 Both sides want the other knocked off completely so why do you preface that as something only the Muslim countries want

You have stated this before as if it is true; it simply is not true.

There is nothing in the Israeli documents or teachings that say this; unlike in the opposite.

This is an example that would have to be backed up by facts.

It is still the old "if they lay their guns down" one thing would happen for sure and if the others did another would happen, etc.

@wallstreetcappers

 I am positive you know the Bible OT and it is not a mystery that Israel in the fabric of their religion and belief structure still to this day is if you are not part of their faith and especially if you do not allow them to have what they feel is theirs, they want you dead period. Both sides share this view the only differences is ONE party has the backing of the most powerful military in the world and the other does not.

Again, this is not true.  You haver to look at the context of the reasons certain things were done in the OT.  It was NOT done because they wanted to wipe them out first.  

The evidence against this attitude is quite obvious by the various folks that are allowed in the country today.  They only ask to not be attacked by those folks.

The total opposite is shown by the long history of the radicals scheming to wipe them out every chance they can -- either one at a time, or as many as they can at once.

@wallstreetcappers

 Again, you are not even close to the only one that feels this way.

This is what I was referring to earlier about why people do not even fully know why they feel this way.  

There are plenty of people that call themselves Christians that feel this way, non-religious folks, and plenty of Muslims as well.

This is the absolutely the only race/religion that so many people feel this way about.  

Look at what is happening even now in the West.  Folks are encouraging one group to come in and will. not say a word against them while totally condemning the other group.

So, I know people feel this way.  But they do a very poor job of articulating why and they do not stop to ask why they cannot fully realize the reason(s) for this.

It is not rational so that makes it hard to reason out without understanding all of the dynamics.  People only see a part of the situation from afar.

@ABooksNightmare

 Is the US supposed to sit by and ignore the massacring of 35,000 citizens who were protesting against the way they were treated and for wanting freedom?

This argument, as well, cannot stand on its own.

There are plenty of other examples where is happening and has happened in the past and the USA did very little, if anything.