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    All Forums | General Discussion

    If Christ died on the cross for all of humanity

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    EX4life
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    EX4life
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    Posted: Nov. 29, 2011 - 4:30 PM ET #1301

    Quote Originally Posted by Drizle:

    It can't be proven Rostos.  But then it never needs to be.  Its a personal belief system.  We all have our own.  It does make for interesting discussion.  And I wouldn't want to disparage another's beliefs cause they didn't jive with mine.  Not my thing.  

    Some things aren't meant and can't be proven. If we were able to understand the fullness of God, He would not be that great of a God. You are right when you say its a personal belief system, and that we all have our own... each of us has a right to believe what we want. But that does not make a particular belief system right. At the end of the day, when all is said and done, and our life here on earth is at an end, there will be Somebody that we will have to stand before. Somebody much greater than all of us. What will we say when He asks us why we didn't believe in Him, when all of the evidence was right there in front of us?
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by Drizle:

    It can't be proven Rostos.  But then it never needs to be.  Its a personal belief system.  We all have our own.  It does make for interesting discussion.  And I wouldn't want to disparage another's beliefs cause they didn't jive with mine.  Not my thing.  

    Some things aren't meant and can't be proven. If we were able to understand the fullness of God, He would not be that great of a God. You are right when you say its a personal belief system, and that we all have our own... each of us has a right to believe what we want. But that does not make a particular belief system right. At the end of the day, when all is said and done, and our life here on earth is at an end, there will be Somebody that we will have to stand before. Somebody much greater than all of us. What will we say when He asks us why we didn't believe in Him, when all of the evidence was right there in front of us?
     
    SYSTEM
    SYSTEM
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    Posted: Nov. 29, 2011 - 4:59 PM ET #1302

    Quote Originally Posted by EX4life:


    Some things aren't meant and can't be proven. If we were able to understand the fullness of God, He would not be that great of a God. You are right when you say its a personal belief system, and that we all have our own... each of us has a right to believe what we want. But that does not make a particular belief system right. At the end of the day, when all is said and done, and our life here on earth is at an end, there will be Somebody that we will have to stand before. Somebody much greater than all of us. What will we say when He asks us why we didn't believe in Him, when all of the evidence was right there in front of us?

    and you know this, how?  this is just your belief...
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by EX4life:


    Some things aren't meant and can't be proven. If we were able to understand the fullness of God, He would not be that great of a God. You are right when you say its a personal belief system, and that we all have our own... each of us has a right to believe what we want. But that does not make a particular belief system right. At the end of the day, when all is said and done, and our life here on earth is at an end, there will be Somebody that we will have to stand before. Somebody much greater than all of us. What will we say when He asks us why we didn't believe in Him, when all of the evidence was right there in front of us?

    and you know this, how?  this is just your belief...
     
    EX4life
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    Posted: Nov. 29, 2011 - 5:13 PM ET #1303

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikniks:

    Evil exists


    AND

    "god" is all good and all powerful...

    This statement is contradictory.  If "god" is all good, he would not allow evil to exist.  If he is all powerful, that would mean he clearly has the power to abolish all evil...

    THEREFORE god can NOT be both all good AND all powerful...


    That is my only point of this post, so don't try to argue a different point, which I know you like to do Rostos...

    Good day sir...

    There are two standard answers to this objection, both of which ultimately fall short. I'll examine these answers before giving what I think is a more complete answer.

    The first answer deals with suffering as well as intentional acts of evil. Some suffering actually benefits us, and is therefore not incompatible with a loving, moral God. Physical pain teaches us our limitations and enables us to survive. When we touch a hot stove or fire and experience pain, we learn to avoid doing so in the future. Other forms of pain are the result of discipline, either from human teachers or from God himself, or are simply consequences of poor choices. Without these forms of suffering, we wouldn't learn to be moral, responsible people.

    Other suffering cant so easily be viewed as beneficial, but there are reasons for it occuring. Some suffering (e.g. disease and natural disasters) is the result of Adam and Eve's rebellion against God. Other forms of evil are the result of beings, both human and demonic, choosing to disobey God. Finally, it is noted that God is not passive with regards to evil, but deals with evil by bringing good out of it and ultimately punishing it and bringing it to an end.

    The second answer is known as the free will defense. God created people with free will, meaning that we can choose to love and obey God or not. It wouldnt be very meaningful if we loved or obeyed God because we were unable to choose otherwise. A computer or talking doll can be made to say, "I love you," but it doesnt have the same meaning as when a human freely chooses to love. Thus, in order for anyones choice to love and follow God to be meaningful, God permits everyone to choose freely what they will do. 
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikniks:

    Evil exists


    AND

    "god" is all good and all powerful...

    This statement is contradictory.  If "god" is all good, he would not allow evil to exist.  If he is all powerful, that would mean he clearly has the power to abolish all evil...

    THEREFORE god can NOT be both all good AND all powerful...


    That is my only point of this post, so don't try to argue a different point, which I know you like to do Rostos...

    Good day sir...

    There are two standard answers to this objection, both of which ultimately fall short. I'll examine these answers before giving what I think is a more complete answer.

    The first answer deals with suffering as well as intentional acts of evil. Some suffering actually benefits us, and is therefore not incompatible with a loving, moral God. Physical pain teaches us our limitations and enables us to survive. When we touch a hot stove or fire and experience pain, we learn to avoid doing so in the future. Other forms of pain are the result of discipline, either from human teachers or from God himself, or are simply consequences of poor choices. Without these forms of suffering, we wouldn't learn to be moral, responsible people.

    Other suffering cant so easily be viewed as beneficial, but there are reasons for it occuring. Some suffering (e.g. disease and natural disasters) is the result of Adam and Eve's rebellion against God. Other forms of evil are the result of beings, both human and demonic, choosing to disobey God. Finally, it is noted that God is not passive with regards to evil, but deals with evil by bringing good out of it and ultimately punishing it and bringing it to an end.

    The second answer is known as the free will defense. God created people with free will, meaning that we can choose to love and obey God or not. It wouldnt be very meaningful if we loved or obeyed God because we were unable to choose otherwise. A computer or talking doll can be made to say, "I love you," but it doesnt have the same meaning as when a human freely chooses to love. Thus, in order for anyones choice to love and follow God to be meaningful, God permits everyone to choose freely what they will do. 
     
    EX4life
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    Posted: Nov. 29, 2011 - 5:13 PM ET #1304

    The problem with both of these answers is that the skeptic can ask in reply, "Why didnt God create a world in which there was no suffering or evil, instead of the present world?" Or in other words, why didnt God simply create heaven and populate it with beings who had free will buit would always choose to love God and do good? There is no suffering in heaven; no one does wrong; there are no physical limitations that would cause us pain. There would be no reason for us to have physical bodies with pain receptors, for there would be nothing that could cause us injury. There would be no reason for us to experience discipline, for we would have all the moral knowledge we needed and would have no desire to do wrong. There would be no reason for testing or other forms of suffering that would result in spiritual growth, for we would be directly in God's presence all of the time. There would be no need for God to punish evil at a later date if there were no evil to begin with. Finally, an omniscient God knows ahead of time who will follow him, and so he could create only those people who would choose him. Alternatively, God could have created only the angels who wouldnt rebel against him, and there would still be beings who freely chose to worship him.

    Why, then, did God create Satan, humans who would choose to sin, and everything else in the present world? I believe the answer is that there is good that exists in this world that could not exist if heaven were the only world.

    One premise on which this thesis depends is the idea that action is more important than words. Its one thing to imagine something, and another to do the work to make it a reality. Its one thing to tell someone you love them and would do anything for them; its quite another to actually donate your kidney to them or spend decades caring for them after theyve been paralyzed from the neck down.

    This idea of action bringing things to completion and therefore being particularly important is also found in the Bible. Abraham had faith in God, but it was not fully expressed or completed until he acted on it by trusting God in a difficult situation. Jesus' incarnation and identification will us was complete because he lived as a human and experienced everything we do, including suffering. Jesus, James and John taught that actions speak louder than words.

    Therefore, a universe in which moral acts are performed has more good in it than a universe in which morality is only an abstraction. A universe that contains two beings who love each other has more love, and therefore more good, than a universe which contains a single being who can only hypothesize that it would love another being. This leads us to the reason why the present world exists: some moral acts cannot be performed in a world that has no suffering or evil. Some examples of these acts include: courage, generosity, justice, repentance, forgiveness, mercy, etc.

    If there were no suffering or evil throughout the history of the world, there would be no instances of any of the above. Some might reply that theyd be willing to make the trade-off and live in a universe that consisted solely of heaven. However, that universe would lack good which this universe contains, and therefore it wouldnt necessarily be a better universe.

    Furthermore, a universe that never contained beings who did evil would mean that God would have no opportunity to act justly or mercifully, or to display his love for his creation as powerfully as he did by paying the penalty for their wrongs. If action completes things such as faith, it also completes God's virtues. This completion glorifies God, for not only are his virtues fully realized and put into practice, they are openly displayed. 

    Why is the glorification of God so important? Its the highest good, and the reason why humanity and the world were created. Skeptics and even some Christians find this objectionable because they misunderstand what it means. It doesnt mean praising someone who doesnt deserve it in order to gratify their ego. Instead, glorifying God is similar to glorifying virtue itself. God is perfectly virtuous and the embodiment of virtue. Therefore, glorifying God means praising someone who is perfectly moral and making his qualities known. This is not only a good in and of itself (because someone who does what is good deserves praise), it furthers morality by publicly calling it desirable, making others aware of God's example and showing them that God will instruct them in morality and enable them to be moral. In shirt, glorifying God results in the glorification and spread of all that is good.
    Reply
    The problem with both of these answers is that the skeptic can ask in reply, "Why didnt God create a world in which there was no suffering or evil, instead of the present world?" Or in other words, why didnt God simply create heaven and populate it with beings who had free will buit would always choose to love God and do good? There is no suffering in heaven; no one does wrong; there are no physical limitations that would cause us pain. There would be no reason for us to have physical bodies with pain receptors, for there would be nothing that could cause us injury. There would be no reason for us to experience discipline, for we would have all the moral knowledge we needed and would have no desire to do wrong. There would be no reason for testing or other forms of suffering that would result in spiritual growth, for we would be directly in God's presence all of the time. There would be no need for God to punish evil at a later date if there were no evil to begin with. Finally, an omniscient God knows ahead of time who will follow him, and so he could create only those people who would choose him. Alternatively, God could have created only the angels who wouldnt rebel against him, and there would still be beings who freely chose to worship him.

    Why, then, did God create Satan, humans who would choose to sin, and everything else in the present world? I believe the answer is that there is good that exists in this world that could not exist if heaven were the only world.

    One premise on which this thesis depends is the idea that action is more important than words. Its one thing to imagine something, and another to do the work to make it a reality. Its one thing to tell someone you love them and would do anything for them; its quite another to actually donate your kidney to them or spend decades caring for them after theyve been paralyzed from the neck down.

    This idea of action bringing things to completion and therefore being particularly important is also found in the Bible. Abraham had faith in God, but it was not fully expressed or completed until he acted on it by trusting God in a difficult situation. Jesus' incarnation and identification will us was complete because he lived as a human and experienced everything we do, including suffering. Jesus, James and John taught that actions speak louder than words.

    Therefore, a universe in which moral acts are performed has more good in it than a universe in which morality is only an abstraction. A universe that contains two beings who love each other has more love, and therefore more good, than a universe which contains a single being who can only hypothesize that it would love another being. This leads us to the reason why the present world exists: some moral acts cannot be performed in a world that has no suffering or evil. Some examples of these acts include: courage, generosity, justice, repentance, forgiveness, mercy, etc.

    If there were no suffering or evil throughout the history of the world, there would be no instances of any of the above. Some might reply that theyd be willing to make the trade-off and live in a universe that consisted solely of heaven. However, that universe would lack good which this universe contains, and therefore it wouldnt necessarily be a better universe.

    Furthermore, a universe that never contained beings who did evil would mean that God would have no opportunity to act justly or mercifully, or to display his love for his creation as powerfully as he did by paying the penalty for their wrongs. If action completes things such as faith, it also completes God's virtues. This completion glorifies God, for not only are his virtues fully realized and put into practice, they are openly displayed. 

    Why is the glorification of God so important? Its the highest good, and the reason why humanity and the world were created. Skeptics and even some Christians find this objectionable because they misunderstand what it means. It doesnt mean praising someone who doesnt deserve it in order to gratify their ego. Instead, glorifying God is similar to glorifying virtue itself. God is perfectly virtuous and the embodiment of virtue. Therefore, glorifying God means praising someone who is perfectly moral and making his qualities known. This is not only a good in and of itself (because someone who does what is good deserves praise), it furthers morality by publicly calling it desirable, making others aware of God's example and showing them that God will instruct them in morality and enable them to be moral. In shirt, glorifying God results in the glorification and spread of all that is good.
     
    EX4life
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    Posted: Nov. 29, 2011 - 5:14 PM ET #1305

    There are some Biblical examples of this principle. Jesus' miraculous healings caused people to believe in him and demonstrated compassion for people, not simply his power. If no one had any needs or wants, Jesus could only have displayed omnipotence; love is more powerfully displayed when one meets another's deeply felt needs. Pharaoh and others were allowed to rebel against God in order that God could display justice and power to everyone in that part of the world - and in fact this formed the basis for Rahab's belief in God. Finally, Paul writes in Romans 9:21-24:

    "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath - prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory - even us, whom he also called, not only from the person but also from the Gentiles?"

    It could be objected that God could have created a single person who did evil and displayed his justice by punishing that one person, or he could have created two evil people, one who would be punished and one who would repent and receive his mercy. However, God didnt create just a handful of people, but billions and billions of them, and he wants all of them to know him. Besides, since God allows each of us to abuse our free will by doing evil, he also gives us the chance to experience repentence, forgiveness and mercy FIRSTHAND, after which we much more fully appreciate his love and who he is.

    Reply
    There are some Biblical examples of this principle. Jesus' miraculous healings caused people to believe in him and demonstrated compassion for people, not simply his power. If no one had any needs or wants, Jesus could only have displayed omnipotence; love is more powerfully displayed when one meets another's deeply felt needs. Pharaoh and others were allowed to rebel against God in order that God could display justice and power to everyone in that part of the world - and in fact this formed the basis for Rahab's belief in God. Finally, Paul writes in Romans 9:21-24:

    "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath - prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory - even us, whom he also called, not only from the person but also from the Gentiles?"

    It could be objected that God could have created a single person who did evil and displayed his justice by punishing that one person, or he could have created two evil people, one who would be punished and one who would repent and receive his mercy. However, God didnt create just a handful of people, but billions and billions of them, and he wants all of them to know him. Besides, since God allows each of us to abuse our free will by doing evil, he also gives us the chance to experience repentence, forgiveness and mercy FIRSTHAND, after which we much more fully appreciate his love and who he is.

     
    EX4life
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    Posted: Nov. 29, 2011 - 5:15 PM ET #1306

    Quote Originally Posted by SYSTEM:


    and you know this, how?  this is just your belief...

    There is more evidence, proof, and truth surrounding God, Jesus and Christianity for even a skeptic to question. Read my thread, I know there is a ton for information, but it answers all of the questions that are being posed here... and if it doesnt answer them, please ask and id love to answer them for you 
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by SYSTEM:


    and you know this, how?  this is just your belief...

    There is more evidence, proof, and truth surrounding God, Jesus and Christianity for even a skeptic to question. Read my thread, I know there is a ton for information, but it answers all of the questions that are being posed here... and if it doesnt answer them, please ask and id love to answer them for you 
     
    SirJohnDrake
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    Posted: Nov. 29, 2011 - 5:34 PM ET #1307

    Quote Originally Posted by booyahz123:


    They edit books of the bible.  

    The books of the Old Testament were written from approximately 1400 B.C. to 400 B.C. The books of the New Testament were written from approximately A.D. 40 to A.D. 90. So, anywhere between 3400 to 1900 years have passed since a book of the Bible was written. In this time, the original manuscripts have been lost. They very likely no longer exist. Also during this time, the books of the Bible have been copied again and again. Copies of copies of copies have been made. In view of this, can we still trust the Bible?

    When God originally inspired men to write His Word, it was God-breathed and inerrant (2 Timothy 3:16-17; John 17:17). The Bible nowhere applies this to copies of the original manuscripts. As meticulous as scribes were with the replication of the Scriptures, no one is perfect. As a result, minor differences arose in the various copies of the Scriptures. Of all of the thousands of Greek and Hebrew manuscripts that are in existence, no two were identical until the printing press was invented in the A.D. 1500s.

    However, any unbiased document scholar will agree that the Bible has been remarkably well-preserved over the centuries. Copies of the Bible dating to the 14th century A.D. are nearly identical in content to copies from the 3rd century A.D. When the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered, scholars were shocked to see how similar they were to other ancient copies of the Old Testament, even though the Dead Sea Scrolls were hundreds of years older than anything previously discovered. Even many hardened skeptics and critics of the Bible admit that the Bible has been transmitted over the centuries far more accurately than any other ancient document.

    There is absolutely no evidence that the Bible has been revised, edited, or tampered with in any systematic manner. The sheer volume of biblical manuscripts makes it simple to recognize any attempts to distort God’s Word. There is no major doctrine of the Bible that is put in doubt as a result of the minor differences that exist between manuscripts.

    Again, the question, can we trust the Bible? Absolutely! God has preserved His Word despite the unintentional failings and intentional attacks of human beings. We can have utmost confidence that the Bible we have today is the same Bible that was originally written. The Bible is God’s Word, and we can trust it (2 Timothy 3:16; Matthew 5:18).

    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by booyahz123:


    They edit books of the bible.  

    The books of the Old Testament were written from approximately 1400 B.C. to 400 B.C. The books of the New Testament were written from approximately A.D. 40 to A.D. 90. So, anywhere between 3400 to 1900 years have passed since a book of the Bible was written. In this time, the original manuscripts have been lost. They very likely no longer exist. Also during this time, the books of the Bible have been copied again and again. Copies of copies of copies have been made. In view of this, can we still trust the Bible?

    When God originally inspired men to write His Word, it was God-breathed and inerrant (2 Timothy 3:16-17; John 17:17). The Bible nowhere applies this to copies of the original manuscripts. As meticulous as scribes were with the replication of the Scriptures, no one is perfect. As a result, minor differences arose in the various copies of the Scriptures. Of all of the thousands of Greek and Hebrew manuscripts that are in existence, no two were identical until the printing press was invented in the A.D. 1500s.

    However, any unbiased document scholar will agree that the Bible has been remarkably well-preserved over the centuries. Copies of the Bible dating to the 14th century A.D. are nearly identical in content to copies from the 3rd century A.D. When the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered, scholars were shocked to see how similar they were to other ancient copies of the Old Testament, even though the Dead Sea Scrolls were hundreds of years older than anything previously discovered. Even many hardened skeptics and critics of the Bible admit that the Bible has been transmitted over the centuries far more accurately than any other ancient document.

    There is absolutely no evidence that the Bible has been revised, edited, or tampered with in any systematic manner. The sheer volume of biblical manuscripts makes it simple to recognize any attempts to distort God’s Word. There is no major doctrine of the Bible that is put in doubt as a result of the minor differences that exist between manuscripts.

    Again, the question, can we trust the Bible? Absolutely! God has preserved His Word despite the unintentional failings and intentional attacks of human beings. We can have utmost confidence that the Bible we have today is the same Bible that was originally written. The Bible is God’s Word, and we can trust it (2 Timothy 3:16; Matthew 5:18).

     
    E-Muffin
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    Posted: Nov. 29, 2011 - 6:17 PM ET #1308

    Booyahz............I can't stop staring at that girl. It is making me thing more and more that there is a god.
    Reply
    Booyahz............I can't stop staring at that girl. It is making me thing more and more that there is a god.
     
    E-Muffin
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    Posted: Nov. 29, 2011 - 6:18 PM ET #1309

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Muffin:

    Booyahz............I can't stop staring at that girl. It is making me thing more and more that there is a god.

     

    Actually, she might just be god.

    Reply

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Muffin:

    Booyahz............I can't stop staring at that girl. It is making me thing more and more that there is a god.

     

    Actually, she might just be god.

     
    SirJohnDrake
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    Posted: Nov. 29, 2011 - 6:22 PM ET #1310

    Quote Originally Posted by booyahz123:


    They do alter and dispute  findings within science and history to make the stories more believable.



    Your statement above is not true, just like your previous statement that the bible has been edited, you are either not being honest or have not done any real research to back your statements up as being true. Let me explain in the following paragraphs.

    Archaeology is an important science that confirms the historical accuracy of the Bible. Since the Bible makes reference to hundreds of cities, kings, and places, we would expect to find evidence from on-site excavations. If we did not find any such evidence, we would highly question the Bible's claim of inspiration and tend to view it as myth and folklore. We would regard the Bible as the product of human imagnation rather than divinely inspired record about real historical events, about real people living in real cities.

    At the turn of the century, skeptics viewed the Bible as myth rather than real world history. For example, the Bible makes over 40 references to the great Hittite Empire. You see, 100 years ago, no archaeological evidence had ever been found to prove it really did exist. "Just another Bible myth!" skeptics charged in an attempt to destroy our faith in the Bible. This, however, cannot be said today, for in 1906, Hugo Winckler uncovered a library of 10,000 clay tablets. These ancient records fully documented the long lost Hittite Empire and confirmed the reliability of the Bible. Later excavations uncovered Boghazkoy, the capital city of this "mythical" empire.

    These discoveries not only authenticate Scripture, but also illuminate many aspects of biblical culture. Abraham's purchase of Ephron's field record the following: "So Ephron's field, which was in Machpelah, which faced Mamre, the field and cave which was in it, and all the trees which were in the field, that were within all the confines of its border, were deeded over to Abraham for a possession in the presence of the sons of Heth." (Genesis 23:17), This reflects the standard Hittite real estate procedure of counting the trees involved in any purchase or sale of land. Note also that the witnesses to Abraham's purchase were the "son's of Heth" -i.e. the Hittites.

    Today, so many Bible cities, names and events have been unearthed through archaeology that the Bible is considered the single most important historical document in existence. Many lost citites have been located using the Bible as a road map. So startling and impressive are some of the finds that one archaeologist was compelled to say, "They are digging up Bible stories!"

    The shovel and spade have confirmed that the historical information of the Bible is both accurate and reliable.

    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by booyahz123:


    They do alter and dispute  findings within science and history to make the stories more believable.



    Your statement above is not true, just like your previous statement that the bible has been edited, you are either not being honest or have not done any real research to back your statements up as being true. Let me explain in the following paragraphs.

    Archaeology is an important science that confirms the historical accuracy of the Bible. Since the Bible makes reference to hundreds of cities, kings, and places, we would expect to find evidence from on-site excavations. If we did not find any such evidence, we would highly question the Bible's claim of inspiration and tend to view it as myth and folklore. We would regard the Bible as the product of human imagnation rather than divinely inspired record about real historical events, about real people living in real cities.

    At the turn of the century, skeptics viewed the Bible as myth rather than real world history. For example, the Bible makes over 40 references to the great Hittite Empire. You see, 100 years ago, no archaeological evidence had ever been found to prove it really did exist. "Just another Bible myth!" skeptics charged in an attempt to destroy our faith in the Bible. This, however, cannot be said today, for in 1906, Hugo Winckler uncovered a library of 10,000 clay tablets. These ancient records fully documented the long lost Hittite Empire and confirmed the reliability of the Bible. Later excavations uncovered Boghazkoy, the capital city of this "mythical" empire.

    These discoveries not only authenticate Scripture, but also illuminate many aspects of biblical culture. Abraham's purchase of Ephron's field record the following: "So Ephron's field, which was in Machpelah, which faced Mamre, the field and cave which was in it, and all the trees which were in the field, that were within all the confines of its border, were deeded over to Abraham for a possession in the presence of the sons of Heth." (Genesis 23:17), This reflects the standard Hittite real estate procedure of counting the trees involved in any purchase or sale of land. Note also that the witnesses to Abraham's purchase were the "son's of Heth" -i.e. the Hittites.

    Today, so many Bible cities, names and events have been unearthed through archaeology that the Bible is considered the single most important historical document in existence. Many lost citites have been located using the Bible as a road map. So startling and impressive are some of the finds that one archaeologist was compelled to say, "They are digging up Bible stories!"

    The shovel and spade have confirmed that the historical information of the Bible is both accurate and reliable.

     
    Rostos
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    Posted: Nov. 29, 2011 - 6:28 PM ET #1311

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Muffin:

     

    Just as a heads up.......the Giant fan is alive and now speaking.

    Did the Giants fan come back from the dead?

    https://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?id=1625187

    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by E-Muffin:

     

    Just as a heads up.......the Giant fan is alive and now speaking.

    Did the Giants fan come back from the dead?

    https://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?id=1625187

     
    Rostos
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    Posted: Nov. 29, 2011 - 6:30 PM ET #1312

    Quote Originally Posted by booyahz123:


    I was an altar boy growing up and the all the priest would take the poor box money and put it in their own pocket.  I don't need to research what I have lived.
    They would have bazaar's and fund raisers to pay for other shit. and use the Catholic School tuition fees for the church.  I went to Saint Catherine of Siena.  

    Priest would take a vow of celibacy and have girlfriends and pay for their apartments.

    you don't need a middle man to help your neighbor

    I'm no atheist but I am not a hypocrite.  There is nothing a church does that people could not do without it.


    Read post 1281.

    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by booyahz123:


    I was an altar boy growing up and the all the priest would take the poor box money and put it in their own pocket.  I don't need to research what I have lived.
    They would have bazaar's and fund raisers to pay for other shit. and use the Catholic School tuition fees for the church.  I went to Saint Catherine of Siena.  

    Priest would take a vow of celibacy and have girlfriends and pay for their apartments.

    you don't need a middle man to help your neighbor

    I'm no atheist but I am not a hypocrite.  There is nothing a church does that people could not do without it.


    Read post 1281.

     
    Rostos
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    Posted: Nov. 29, 2011 - 6:38 PM ET #1313

    Quote Originally Posted by booyahz123:

    1. Christianity: 2.1 billion
    2. Islam: 1.5 billion
    3. Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion
    4. Hinduism: 900 million
    5. Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
    6. Buddhism: 376 million
    7. primal-indigenous: 300 million
    8. African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million
    9. Sikhism: 23 million
    10. Juche: 19 million
    11. Spiritism: 15 million
    12. Judaism: 14 million
    13. Baha'i: 7 million
    14. Jainism: 4.2 million
    15. Shinto: 4 million
    16. Cao Dai: 4 million
    17. Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million
    18. Tenrikyo: 2 million
    19. Neo-Paganism: 1 million
    20. Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
    21. Rastafarianism: 600 thousand
    22. Scientology: 500 thousand
    organized religion.  You dont need to be a member to be a good person.
     
    Where did i say members of religious organisations are better people than non members? Where?

    Every religion on this list has done damage to the world.  The Spanish Inquisition ...............confess or die......... that's some roots to be proud of, even Hitler believed in the power of Christian artifacts.
     
    Atheists are the biggest mass murders in the history of humanity. Nothing even comes close. Stalin, Po Pot etc....

    Crusades with 2 sides claiming they are killing in the name of a God.............
     
    I dont really care what other religions claim. Jesus does NOT teach to kill in the name of God. He teaches the exact opposite. It would be like that Dodgers fan saying the Matt Kemp teaches to you to kill if you lose a game of baseball...

    The Quran , now there's a real winner.........cut off the heads of infidels........does 9-11 even happen without organized religion.
     
    I am not a muslim, so i dont really care. Furthermore, why are you equivocating religions for? Michael Jacksons doctor was charged with murder, are all doctors murderers? Why are you equivocating?

    There is always someone trying to shove their insanity and hypocrisy down everyone's throat.  Who are you really trying to convince me or yourselves.  
     
    No, the teachings of Chirstianity are the source of all goodness, the person that teaches it and acts the opposite way are hypocrites. Look at the teachings, not the actions of the person. It doesnt excuse the person, but you are by passing the teachings of Christianity. 

    Yeah people never donate top shelf food its always crap

    Give your leftovers to your neighbor at least you will have to look them in the face
     
    WHo says people dont? Why are you sitting on your high horse and judging  everyone? Are you perfect? Let the non sinner throw the first stone.

    The world keeps getting worse and all these people members of organized religion.........what a joke
     
    Yeah, lets simply equivocate every religion, why not....very intelligent of you. Again, atheists are the biggest mass murders in the history of humanity. Nothing comes close.
    here's a clip for you hypocrite churchies
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPPg3FfR7no

      

    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by booyahz123:

    1. Christianity: 2.1 billion
    2. Islam: 1.5 billion
    3. Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion
    4. Hinduism: 900 million
    5. Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
    6. Buddhism: 376 million
    7. primal-indigenous: 300 million
    8. African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million
    9. Sikhism: 23 million
    10. Juche: 19 million
    11. Spiritism: 15 million
    12. Judaism: 14 million
    13. Baha'i: 7 million
    14. Jainism: 4.2 million
    15. Shinto: 4 million
    16. Cao Dai: 4 million
    17. Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million
    18. Tenrikyo: 2 million
    19. Neo-Paganism: 1 million
    20. Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
    21. Rastafarianism: 600 thousand
    22. Scientology: 500 thousand
    organized religion.  You dont need to be a member to be a good person.
     
    Where did i say members of religious organisations are better people than non members? Where?

    Every religion on this list has done damage to the world.  The Spanish Inquisition ...............confess or die......... that's some roots to be proud of, even Hitler believed in the power of Christian artifacts.
     
    Atheists are the biggest mass murders in the history of humanity. Nothing even comes close. Stalin, Po Pot etc....

    Crusades with 2 sides claiming they are killing in the name of a God.............
     
    I dont really care what other religions claim. Jesus does NOT teach to kill in the name of God. He teaches the exact opposite. It would be like that Dodgers fan saying the Matt Kemp teaches to you to kill if you lose a game of baseball...

    The Quran , now there's a real winner.........cut off the heads of infidels........does 9-11 even happen without organized religion.
     
    I am not a muslim, so i dont really care. Furthermore, why are you equivocating religions for? Michael Jacksons doctor was charged with murder, are all doctors murderers? Why are you equivocating?

    There is always someone trying to shove their insanity and hypocrisy down everyone's throat.  Who are you really trying to convince me or yourselves.  
     
    No, the teachings of Chirstianity are the source of all goodness, the person that teaches it and acts the opposite way are hypocrites. Look at the teachings, not the actions of the person. It doesnt excuse the person, but you are by passing the teachings of Christianity. 

    Yeah people never donate top shelf food its always crap

    Give your leftovers to your neighbor at least you will have to look them in the face
     
    WHo says people dont? Why are you sitting on your high horse and judging  everyone? Are you perfect? Let the non sinner throw the first stone.

    The world keeps getting worse and all these people members of organized religion.........what a joke
     
    Yeah, lets simply equivocate every religion, why not....very intelligent of you. Again, atheists are the biggest mass murders in the history of humanity. Nothing comes close.
    here's a clip for you hypocrite churchies
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPPg3FfR7no

      

     
    Rostos
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    Posted: Nov. 29, 2011 - 6:40 PM ET #1314

    Quote Originally Posted by booyahz123:


    no records of cash that goes in the basket or box. its like asking a waiter or waitress to claim all their tips on taxes, there is no way of knowing what was really given.........of course they show a loss its supposed to be non-profit..... rich kids get special treatment in Catholic school because they have parents that donate cars and cash.........I lived that as well. 

    but they will spend thousands on a fucking chalice 
     
    I just know when i walk into my church on the weekend, everything is in order, i dont care where the odd dollar gos,  as long as it is in order, thats what counts
    LMFAO

    You don't need a church or religion to help your fellow man 
     
    Absolutely correct.



     

    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by booyahz123:


    no records of cash that goes in the basket or box. its like asking a waiter or waitress to claim all their tips on taxes, there is no way of knowing what was really given.........of course they show a loss its supposed to be non-profit..... rich kids get special treatment in Catholic school because they have parents that donate cars and cash.........I lived that as well. 

    but they will spend thousands on a fucking chalice 
     
    I just know when i walk into my church on the weekend, everything is in order, i dont care where the odd dollar gos,  as long as it is in order, thats what counts
    LMFAO

    You don't need a church or religion to help your fellow man 
     
    Absolutely correct.



     

     
    Rostos
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    Posted: Nov. 29, 2011 - 6:43 PM ET #1315

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikniks:

    Evil exists

    AND

    "god" is all good and all powerful...

    This statement is contradictory.  If "god" is all good, he would not allow evil to exist.  If he is all powerful, that would mean he clearly has the power to abolish all evil...

    THEREFORE god can NOT be both all good AND all powerful...


    That is my only point of this post, so don't try to argue a different point, which I know you like to do Rostos...

    Good day sir...

    God ALLOWS evil into the world.

    This is the biggest emotional argument atheists have. It doesnt disprove an all powerful and loving God.

    Reply

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikniks:

    Evil exists

    AND

    "god" is all good and all powerful...

    This statement is contradictory.  If "god" is all good, he would not allow evil to exist.  If he is all powerful, that would mean he clearly has the power to abolish all evil...

    THEREFORE god can NOT be both all good AND all powerful...


    That is my only point of this post, so don't try to argue a different point, which I know you like to do Rostos...

    Good day sir...

    God ALLOWS evil into the world.

    This is the biggest emotional argument atheists have. It doesnt disprove an all powerful and loving God.

     
    EX4life
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    Posted: Nov. 29, 2011 - 6:44 PM ET #1316

    rostos, sent you a friend request. Id be obliged if you accepted it  thanks
    Reply
    rostos, sent you a friend request. Id be obliged if you accepted it  thanks
     
    Rostos
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    Posted: Nov. 29, 2011 - 6:51 PM ET #1317

    Quote Originally Posted by EX4life:

    The problem with both of these answers is that the skeptic can ask in reply, "Why didnt God create a world in which there was no suffering or evil, instead of the present world?" Or in other words, why didnt God simply create heaven and populate it with beings who had free will buit would always choose to love God and do good? There is no suffering in heaven; no one does wrong; there are no physical limitations that would cause us pain. There would be no reason for us to have physical bodies with pain receptors, for there would be nothing that could cause us injury. There would be no reason for us to experience discipline, for we would have all the moral knowledge we needed and would have no desire to do wrong. There would be no reason for testing or other forms of suffering that would result in spiritual growth, for we would be directly in God's presence all of the time. There would be no need for God to punish evil at a later date if there were no evil to begin with. Finally, an omniscient God knows ahead of time who will follow him, and so he could create only those people who would choose him. Alternatively, God could have created only the angels who wouldnt rebel against him, and there would still be beings who freely chose to worship him.

    Why, then, did God create Satan, humans who would choose to sin, and everything else in the present world? I believe the answer is that there is good that exists in this world that could not exist if heaven were the only world.

    One premise on which this thesis depends is the idea that action is more important than words. Its one thing to imagine something, and another to do the work to make it a reality. Its one thing to tell someone you love them and would do anything for them; its quite another to actually donate your kidney to them or spend decades caring for them after theyve been paralyzed from the neck down.

    This idea of action bringing things to completion and therefore being particularly important is also found in the Bible. Abraham had faith in God, but it was not fully expressed or completed until he acted on it by trusting God in a difficult situation. Jesus' incarnation and identification will us was complete because he lived as a human and experienced everything we do, including suffering. Jesus, James and John taught that actions speak louder than words.

    Therefore, a universe in which moral acts are performed has more good in it than a universe in which morality is only an abstraction. A universe that contains two beings who love each other has more love, and therefore more good, than a universe which contains a single being who can only hypothesize that it would love another being. This leads us to the reason why the present world exists: some moral acts cannot be performed in a world that has no suffering or evil. Some examples of these acts include: courage, generosity, justice, repentance, forgiveness, mercy, etc.

    If there were no suffering or evil throughout the history of the world, there would be no instances of any of the above. Some might reply that theyd be willing to make the trade-off and live in a universe that consisted solely of heaven. However, that universe would lack good which this universe contains, and therefore it wouldnt necessarily be a better universe.

    Furthermore, a universe that never contained beings who did evil would mean that God would have no opportunity to act justly or mercifully, or to display his love for his creation as powerfully as he did by paying the penalty for their wrongs. If action completes things such as faith, it also completes God's virtues. This completion glorifies God, for not only are his virtues fully realized and put into practice, they are openly displayed. 

    Why is the glorification of God so important? Its the highest good, and the reason why humanity and the world were created. Skeptics and even some Christians find this objectionable because they misunderstand what it means. It doesnt mean praising someone who doesnt deserve it in order to gratify their ego. Instead, glorifying God is similar to glorifying virtue itself. God is perfectly virtuous and the embodiment of virtue. Therefore, glorifying God means praising someone who is perfectly moral and making his qualities known. This is not only a good in and of itself (because someone who does what is good deserves praise), it furthers morality by publicly calling it desirable, making others aware of God's example and showing them that God will instruct them in morality and enable them to be moral. In shirt, glorifying God results in the glorification and spread of all that is good.

    Atheists do not realise that evil is the BI PRODUCT of free will.

    Let me ask an atheist.

    Is having sex before or outside marriage evil? The atheist will say no. In Gods eyes, it is a sin.

    Now, is murdering someone evil? I am sure the atheist will say yes. In Gods eyes, murder is also evil.

    So, the atheist wants a world, where they can do what they want even if it is against Gods law, "sex before marriage", but when something bad happens to them, ie, murder or rape, theft etc etc, they want God to intervene. So in a way, they want God as their personal genie?  It doesnt work like that.

    Atheists dont realise that we are put on this earth to either choose to accept God , obey his commands and want to spend eternity with him OR choose to reject God and live away from him for eternity. If we live in a world where the ONLY moral choices we can make are good ones, then we cant make a choice if we want to accept or reject God. We will be puppets. Therefore, unfortuntaley, a bi product of free will is evil.

    If God werent to allow evil in the world, then this website wouldnt exist, porn sites wouldnt exist, brothels wouldnt exist, sex outside marriage wouldnt exist, etc etc etc - ALL actions against God wouldnt be allowed, not just the ones that doesnt suit the atheist...

    Atheists, you cant have it both ways.

    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by EX4life:

    The problem with both of these answers is that the skeptic can ask in reply, "Why didnt God create a world in which there was no suffering or evil, instead of the present world?" Or in other words, why didnt God simply create heaven and populate it with beings who had free will buit would always choose to love God and do good? There is no suffering in heaven; no one does wrong; there are no physical limitations that would cause us pain. There would be no reason for us to have physical bodies with pain receptors, for there would be nothing that could cause us injury. There would be no reason for us to experience discipline, for we would have all the moral knowledge we needed and would have no desire to do wrong. There would be no reason for testing or other forms of suffering that would result in spiritual growth, for we would be directly in God's presence all of the time. There would be no need for God to punish evil at a later date if there were no evil to begin with. Finally, an omniscient God knows ahead of time who will follow him, and so he could create only those people who would choose him. Alternatively, God could have created only the angels who wouldnt rebel against him, and there would still be beings who freely chose to worship him.

    Why, then, did God create Satan, humans who would choose to sin, and everything else in the present world? I believe the answer is that there is good that exists in this world that could not exist if heaven were the only world.

    One premise on which this thesis depends is the idea that action is more important than words. Its one thing to imagine something, and another to do the work to make it a reality. Its one thing to tell someone you love them and would do anything for them; its quite another to actually donate your kidney to them or spend decades caring for them after theyve been paralyzed from the neck down.

    This idea of action bringing things to completion and therefore being particularly important is also found in the Bible. Abraham had faith in God, but it was not fully expressed or completed until he acted on it by trusting God in a difficult situation. Jesus' incarnation and identification will us was complete because he lived as a human and experienced everything we do, including suffering. Jesus, James and John taught that actions speak louder than words.

    Therefore, a universe in which moral acts are performed has more good in it than a universe in which morality is only an abstraction. A universe that contains two beings who love each other has more love, and therefore more good, than a universe which contains a single being who can only hypothesize that it would love another being. This leads us to the reason why the present world exists: some moral acts cannot be performed in a world that has no suffering or evil. Some examples of these acts include: courage, generosity, justice, repentance, forgiveness, mercy, etc.

    If there were no suffering or evil throughout the history of the world, there would be no instances of any of the above. Some might reply that theyd be willing to make the trade-off and live in a universe that consisted solely of heaven. However, that universe would lack good which this universe contains, and therefore it wouldnt necessarily be a better universe.

    Furthermore, a universe that never contained beings who did evil would mean that God would have no opportunity to act justly or mercifully, or to display his love for his creation as powerfully as he did by paying the penalty for their wrongs. If action completes things such as faith, it also completes God's virtues. This completion glorifies God, for not only are his virtues fully realized and put into practice, they are openly displayed. 

    Why is the glorification of God so important? Its the highest good, and the reason why humanity and the world were created. Skeptics and even some Christians find this objectionable because they misunderstand what it means. It doesnt mean praising someone who doesnt deserve it in order to gratify their ego. Instead, glorifying God is similar to glorifying virtue itself. God is perfectly virtuous and the embodiment of virtue. Therefore, glorifying God means praising someone who is perfectly moral and making his qualities known. This is not only a good in and of itself (because someone who does what is good deserves praise), it furthers morality by publicly calling it desirable, making others aware of God's example and showing them that God will instruct them in morality and enable them to be moral. In shirt, glorifying God results in the glorification and spread of all that is good.

    Atheists do not realise that evil is the BI PRODUCT of free will.

    Let me ask an atheist.

    Is having sex before or outside marriage evil? The atheist will say no. In Gods eyes, it is a sin.

    Now, is murdering someone evil? I am sure the atheist will say yes. In Gods eyes, murder is also evil.

    So, the atheist wants a world, where they can do what they want even if it is against Gods law, "sex before marriage", but when something bad happens to them, ie, murder or rape, theft etc etc, they want God to intervene. So in a way, they want God as their personal genie?  It doesnt work like that.

    Atheists dont realise that we are put on this earth to either choose to accept God , obey his commands and want to spend eternity with him OR choose to reject God and live away from him for eternity. If we live in a world where the ONLY moral choices we can make are good ones, then we cant make a choice if we want to accept or reject God. We will be puppets. Therefore, unfortuntaley, a bi product of free will is evil.

    If God werent to allow evil in the world, then this website wouldnt exist, porn sites wouldnt exist, brothels wouldnt exist, sex outside marriage wouldnt exist, etc etc etc - ALL actions against God wouldnt be allowed, not just the ones that doesnt suit the atheist...

    Atheists, you cant have it both ways.

     
    Rostos
    Rostos
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    Posts: 27785
    Posted: Nov. 29, 2011 - 6:56 PM ET #1318

    Quote Originally Posted by EX4life:

    rostos, sent you a friend request. Id be obliged if you accepted it  thanks

    Accepeted mate

    Reply

    Quote Originally Posted by EX4life:

    rostos, sent you a friend request. Id be obliged if you accepted it  thanks

    Accepeted mate

     
    SirJohnDrake
    SirJohnDrake
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    Joined: Jan, 2006
    Posts: 14765
    Posted: Nov. 29, 2011 - 7:03 PM ET #1319

    Quote Originally Posted by booyahz123:


    People are killed every day in the name of religion.



    And so are people being killed every day in the name of no religion. So in otherwords, regardless if there is absolutely no one into religion at all or if everyone was into religion, or whatever, the bottom line is that people are being and will be killed everyday by others and so why do you make it sound like only religious people kill?

    One more point I would like to make, the Christian religion does not command its followers to kill in the name of the Christian religion.

    If anybody who is a Christian kills another, they are doing it on their own and not by a command of the Christian religion.

    One of the Ten Commandments is "Thous shalt not murder"...need I say more?

    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by booyahz123:


    People are killed every day in the name of religion.



    And so are people being killed every day in the name of no religion. So in otherwords, regardless if there is absolutely no one into religion at all or if everyone was into religion, or whatever, the bottom line is that people are being and will be killed everyday by others and so why do you make it sound like only religious people kill?

    One more point I would like to make, the Christian religion does not command its followers to kill in the name of the Christian religion.

    If anybody who is a Christian kills another, they are doing it on their own and not by a command of the Christian religion.

    One of the Ten Commandments is "Thous shalt not murder"...need I say more?

     
    Quantum_Leap
    Quantum_Leap
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    Posts: 14521
    Posted: Nov. 29, 2011 - 7:21 PM ET #1320

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikniks:

    Evil exists

    AND

    "god" is all good and all powerful...

    This statement is contradictory.
      If "god" is all good, he would not allow evil to exist.  If he is all powerful, that would mean he clearly has the power to abolish all evil...

    THEREFORE god can NOT be both all good AND all powerful...


    That is my only point of this post, so don't try to argue a different point, which I know you like to do Rostos...

    Good day sir...

    Simply brilliant.Like a light.

    Reply

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikniks:

    Evil exists

    AND

    "god" is all good and all powerful...

    This statement is contradictory.
      If "god" is all good, he would not allow evil to exist.  If he is all powerful, that would mean he clearly has the power to abolish all evil...

    THEREFORE god can NOT be both all good AND all powerful...


    That is my only point of this post, so don't try to argue a different point, which I know you like to do Rostos...

    Good day sir...

    Simply brilliant.Like a light.

     
    SirJohnDrake
    SirJohnDrake
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    Posts: 14765
    Posted: Nov. 29, 2011 - 7:53 PM ET #1321

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikniks:

    Evil exists

    AND

    "god" is all good and all powerful...

    This statement is contradictory.  If "god" is all good, he would not allow evil to exist.  If he is all powerful, that would mean he clearly has the power to abolish all evil...

    THEREFORE god can NOT be both all good AND all powerful...


    You are wrong, there is absolutely no contradiction here. God is absolutely all good and all powerful. The evil exists here on earth, where people dwell, the evil is in people not God, because God is holy and He is good. Sin originated in man, not in God. God prevents sin's dominion (Rom. 6:14).

    So then the question becomes why does God allow evil in this world? The answer is: Freedom of choice is the God's great gift to the human race. "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants" (Deut. 30:19).

    So He didn't make us into His own personal puppets, where He could control you 24/7 to do only good. He gave you freedom of choice and yes sadly some people choose to do evil.

    But God has, at His own cost, provided a remedy. "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me" (John 14:6).

    Which means if you confess your sins, and ask forgiveness and accept Jesus Christ the only begotten Son of God, our Lord Savior, you will be saved and have eternal life in God's Kingdom of Heaven.

    Reply

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikniks:

    Evil exists

    AND

    "god" is all good and all powerful...

    This statement is contradictory.  If "god" is all good, he would not allow evil to exist.  If he is all powerful, that would mean he clearly has the power to abolish all evil...

    THEREFORE god can NOT be both all good AND all powerful...


    You are wrong, there is absolutely no contradiction here. God is absolutely all good and all powerful. The evil exists here on earth, where people dwell, the evil is in people not God, because God is holy and He is good. Sin originated in man, not in God. God prevents sin's dominion (Rom. 6:14).

    So then the question becomes why does God allow evil in this world? The answer is: Freedom of choice is the God's great gift to the human race. "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants" (Deut. 30:19).

    So He didn't make us into His own personal puppets, where He could control you 24/7 to do only good. He gave you freedom of choice and yes sadly some people choose to do evil.

    But God has, at His own cost, provided a remedy. "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me" (John 14:6).

    Which means if you confess your sins, and ask forgiveness and accept Jesus Christ the only begotten Son of God, our Lord Savior, you will be saved and have eternal life in God's Kingdom of Heaven.

     
    EX4life
    EX4life
    All-Star
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Dec, 2009
    Posts: 13235
    Posted: Nov. 29, 2011 - 8:12 PM ET #1322

    Quote Originally Posted by Quantum_Leap:

    Simply brilliant.Like a light.


    Quantum, already explained  please re-consider that statement
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by Quantum_Leap:

    Simply brilliant.Like a light.


    Quantum, already explained  please re-consider that statement
     
    matt4000
    matt4000
    Veteran
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Aug, 2007
    Posts: 1104
    Posted: Nov. 29, 2011 - 11:49 PM ET #1323

    EX4life, Rostos, SirJohnDrake and the others.

    Thanks for all the great insight, knowledge and Holy Spirit led answers that you guys have gave in this thread.

    I have had many ups and downs as a believer, yet have also learned a lot over the years, but have learned new things thanks to you guys!

    Much appreciated and keep up the good work!

    EX4life,
    I think you should prayerfully consider either copying and pasting answers that you previously addressed into this thread or to type new ones.
    Cause, I highly doubt that others will search through your other thread to find what they are looking for, especially those that are not Christians.
    Just think about it!
    Matt
    Reply
    EX4life, Rostos, SirJohnDrake and the others.

    Thanks for all the great insight, knowledge and Holy Spirit led answers that you guys have gave in this thread.

    I have had many ups and downs as a believer, yet have also learned a lot over the years, but have learned new things thanks to you guys!

    Much appreciated and keep up the good work!

    EX4life,
    I think you should prayerfully consider either copying and pasting answers that you previously addressed into this thread or to type new ones.
    Cause, I highly doubt that others will search through your other thread to find what they are looking for, especially those that are not Christians.
    Just think about it!
    Matt
     
    booyahz123
    booyahz123
    Banned
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Sep, 2006
    Posts: 1668
    Posted: Nov. 30, 2011 - 12:07 AM ET #1324

    Quote Originally Posted by SirJohnDrake:

    Yes, there have been some in the clergy who have molested young boys, and who have been punished for their crimes but what does that have to do with people continuing to go to church?

    There also have been people who are not religious molesting young boys. There are indeed perverted, sinful people out there but it's like you're saying the church is promoting this type of perversion and so you don't understand why people continue to go to church.

    How ignorant on your part to suggest or imply that. You don't make sense at all. Stop blaming the church for the evils that wicked people commit. The ones who are doing it are simply hypocrites.



    The church not only protects its pedophiles but relocates them to a different parish and settled lawsuits for decades to keep the secret, only after people started realizing this was common practice worldwide did the church have a "meeting" saying the pedophilia should stop.

    not once did anyone fire a bishop or say the pope should resign.

    and if the pope believes in God's will why drive around in a bullet proof car.  If any should not be afraid of death it should be the pope.

    The Vatican where people stand in the square waiting to see the pope and get robbed by professional pick pockets..........yeah dont blame the church but people like you blame Paterno

    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by SirJohnDrake:

    Yes, there have been some in the clergy who have molested young boys, and who have been punished for their crimes but what does that have to do with people continuing to go to church?

    There also have been people who are not religious molesting young boys. There are indeed perverted, sinful people out there but it's like you're saying the church is promoting this type of perversion and so you don't understand why people continue to go to church.

    How ignorant on your part to suggest or imply that. You don't make sense at all. Stop blaming the church for the evils that wicked people commit. The ones who are doing it are simply hypocrites.



    The church not only protects its pedophiles but relocates them to a different parish and settled lawsuits for decades to keep the secret, only after people started realizing this was common practice worldwide did the church have a "meeting" saying the pedophilia should stop.

    not once did anyone fire a bishop or say the pope should resign.

    and if the pope believes in God's will why drive around in a bullet proof car.  If any should not be afraid of death it should be the pope.

    The Vatican where people stand in the square waiting to see the pope and get robbed by professional pick pockets..........yeah dont blame the church but people like you blame Paterno

     
     
    booyahz123
    booyahz123
    Banned
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Sep, 2006
    Posts: 1668
    Posted: Nov. 30, 2011 - 12:12 AM ET #1325

    Quote Originally Posted by SirJohnDrake:

    The books of the Old Testament were written from approximately 1400 B.C. to 400 B.C. The books of the New Testament were written from approximately A.D. 40 to A.D. 90. So, anywhere between 3400 to 1900 years have passed since a book of the Bible was written. In this time, the original manuscripts have been lost. They very likely no longer exist. Also during this time, the books of the Bible have been copied again and again. Copies of copies of copies have been made. In view of this, can we still trust the Bible?

    When God originally inspired men to write His Word, it was God-breathed and inerrant (2 Timothy 3:16-17; John 17:17). The Bible nowhere applies this to copies of the original manuscripts. As meticulous as scribes were with the replication of the Scriptures, no one is perfect. As a result, minor differences arose in the various copies of the Scriptures. Of all of the thousands of Greek and Hebrew manuscripts that are in existence, no two were identical until the printing press was invented in the A.D. 1500s.

    However, any unbiased document scholar will agree that the Bible has been remarkably well-preserved over the centuries. Copies of the Bible dating to the 14th century A.D. are nearly identical in content to copies from the 3rd century A.D. When the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered, scholars were shocked to see how similar they were to other ancient copies of the Old Testament, even though the Dead Sea Scrolls were hundreds of years older than anything previously discovered. Even many hardened skeptics and critics of the Bible admit that the Bible has been transmitted over the centuries far more accurately than any other ancient document.

    There is absolutely no evidence that the Bible has been revised, edited, or tampered with in any systematic manner. The sheer volume of biblical manuscripts makes it simple to recognize any attempts to distort God’s Word. There is no major doctrine of the Bible that is put in doubt as a result of the minor differences that exist between manuscripts.

    Again, the question, can we trust the Bible? Absolutely! God has preserved His Word despite the unintentional failings and intentional attacks of human beings. We can have utmost confidence that the Bible we have today is the same Bible that was originally written. The Bible is God’s Word, and we can trust it (2 Timothy 3:16; Matthew 5:18).


    When you remove or omit  books that is editing

    this is fact that not all "books" that were written are in the bible as it is today. It is a historic fact

    The king of England wanted an anullment, couldnt get it, separates from the pope, translates the bible to English.............Im sure he had it edited to suit his needs as well
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by SirJohnDrake:

    The books of the Old Testament were written from approximately 1400 B.C. to 400 B.C. The books of the New Testament were written from approximately A.D. 40 to A.D. 90. So, anywhere between 3400 to 1900 years have passed since a book of the Bible was written. In this time, the original manuscripts have been lost. They very likely no longer exist. Also during this time, the books of the Bible have been copied again and again. Copies of copies of copies have been made. In view of this, can we still trust the Bible?

    When God originally inspired men to write His Word, it was God-breathed and inerrant (2 Timothy 3:16-17; John 17:17). The Bible nowhere applies this to copies of the original manuscripts. As meticulous as scribes were with the replication of the Scriptures, no one is perfect. As a result, minor differences arose in the various copies of the Scriptures. Of all of the thousands of Greek and Hebrew manuscripts that are in existence, no two were identical until the printing press was invented in the A.D. 1500s.

    However, any unbiased document scholar will agree that the Bible has been remarkably well-preserved over the centuries. Copies of the Bible dating to the 14th century A.D. are nearly identical in content to copies from the 3rd century A.D. When the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered, scholars were shocked to see how similar they were to other ancient copies of the Old Testament, even though the Dead Sea Scrolls were hundreds of years older than anything previously discovered. Even many hardened skeptics and critics of the Bible admit that the Bible has been transmitted over the centuries far more accurately than any other ancient document.

    There is absolutely no evidence that the Bible has been revised, edited, or tampered with in any systematic manner. The sheer volume of biblical manuscripts makes it simple to recognize any attempts to distort God’s Word. There is no major doctrine of the Bible that is put in doubt as a result of the minor differences that exist between manuscripts.

    Again, the question, can we trust the Bible? Absolutely! God has preserved His Word despite the unintentional failings and intentional attacks of human beings. We can have utmost confidence that the Bible we have today is the same Bible that was originally written. The Bible is God’s Word, and we can trust it (2 Timothy 3:16; Matthew 5:18).


    When you remove or omit  books that is editing

    this is fact that not all "books" that were written are in the bible as it is today. It is a historic fact

    The king of England wanted an anullment, couldnt get it, separates from the pope, translates the bible to English.............Im sure he had it edited to suit his needs as well
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