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    All Forums | General Discussion

    If Christ died on the cross for all of humanity

    «First Previous 555657 ... 213214215 Next Last»
    Mikniks
    SirJohnDrake
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    Mikniks
    Mikniks
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    Joined: Nov, 2010
    Posts: 1384
    Posted: Dec. 1, 2011 - 8:22 PM ET #1351

    Quote Originally Posted by SirJohnDrake:

     

    After this explanation below I hope it brings some understanding to you as to why an all loving God punishes but I have doubts that non-believers like you can ever be reasonable enough to accept any explanation but who knows.

    If God is all-loving, why would He send people to hell? What is hell? Is it a place of eternal torment? Why create creatures knowing they will end up in an eternity of damnation? Is God helpless to save them all?

    Often times, skeptics try to present an idea so that fairness and compassion necessitate that the Christian God cannot be real. For example, they sometimes say that a truly loving God would not create people He knew would go to eternal punishment. Of course this is only an opinion, but it is sometime raised nonetheless. As one skeptic put it, "If God truly loves us (this sacrificial love you talk about) then he would simply say 'I do not want the child to be born'. He is in control and has that ability, doesn't he? No one would not wish any of their children, whom they love, to go through a life of agonizing pain." The main problem with such an approach is that it is overly simplistic and based on emotionalism, not scripture. So, let's look at what the Word of God says.

    First of all, when God made Adam, He made him good. Adam had the freedom to choose to obey or disobey God. Adam is the one who rebelled. God did not make him rebel and God is not responsible for Adam's rebellion. It would be like a parent having a child knowing that the child would eventually disobey the parent.

     Does this mean that the parent is responsible for the child's rebellion when it occurs because the parent knew it would happen? Of course not. Furthermore, if the parent has more children, does he/she not know that some children may very well turn out good and others bad? Should the parents then not have children because some of them might turn out bad? The skeptic, if he is consistent, would urge parents not to have any children at all lest some of them turn out bad.

    The skeptic might say, "But God knows for a fact who will be bad and good. Why allow the people going to hell to be born in the first place?" But, if this is the case and if God arranged it that no "bad" people were born, then we would all go to hell. You see, Jesus is the only way to be forgiven of our sins. His sacrifice on the cross was necessary in order to make it possible for us to be saved because everyone, "good" and "bad" has sinned. If there were no "bad" people born, then there wouldn't be any "bad" people around who would have sent Jesus to the cross. If that never happened, then we wouldn't be saved from our sins because Jesus would never have been unjustly condemned and His sacrifice would never have happened.

    Second, if someone says that it is wrong for God to allow someone to be born and who will go to hell, then would he rather have God remove our freedom to rebel against Him so that no one can be blamed for sin? If the critic says he only wants those people born who go to heaven, then how are they truly free and how would that fulfill the ultimate plan of God to sacrifice His Son for the redemption of mankind?

    Third, God could have reasons for sending people to hell that we cannot understand.

    Fourth, God is just and always does what is right. Therefore, sending people to hell is the right thing to do, especially when we understand that God is eternally holy and those who sin against God incur an infinite offense because the infinite God is the one who is offended.

    Finally, the Bible simply tells us that people will go to hell. They go there because they are not covered by the sacrifice of Christ. Whether they are created or not does not affect the fact that sinners must be punished; otherwise, the holiness and righteousness of God mean nothing.


    You are aware that Adam never existed right?  The story of Adam and Eve is just that: a story... You can't pick a choose stuff in the bible in an attempt to make your case...

    Why aren't you out killing people who are involved with banking and eating lobsters??  Those are forbidden in the bible, so wouldn't that be god's will??
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by SirJohnDrake:

     

    After this explanation below I hope it brings some understanding to you as to why an all loving God punishes but I have doubts that non-believers like you can ever be reasonable enough to accept any explanation but who knows.

    If God is all-loving, why would He send people to hell? What is hell? Is it a place of eternal torment? Why create creatures knowing they will end up in an eternity of damnation? Is God helpless to save them all?

    Often times, skeptics try to present an idea so that fairness and compassion necessitate that the Christian God cannot be real. For example, they sometimes say that a truly loving God would not create people He knew would go to eternal punishment. Of course this is only an opinion, but it is sometime raised nonetheless. As one skeptic put it, "If God truly loves us (this sacrificial love you talk about) then he would simply say 'I do not want the child to be born'. He is in control and has that ability, doesn't he? No one would not wish any of their children, whom they love, to go through a life of agonizing pain." The main problem with such an approach is that it is overly simplistic and based on emotionalism, not scripture. So, let's look at what the Word of God says.

    First of all, when God made Adam, He made him good. Adam had the freedom to choose to obey or disobey God. Adam is the one who rebelled. God did not make him rebel and God is not responsible for Adam's rebellion. It would be like a parent having a child knowing that the child would eventually disobey the parent.

     Does this mean that the parent is responsible for the child's rebellion when it occurs because the parent knew it would happen? Of course not. Furthermore, if the parent has more children, does he/she not know that some children may very well turn out good and others bad? Should the parents then not have children because some of them might turn out bad? The skeptic, if he is consistent, would urge parents not to have any children at all lest some of them turn out bad.

    The skeptic might say, "But God knows for a fact who will be bad and good. Why allow the people going to hell to be born in the first place?" But, if this is the case and if God arranged it that no "bad" people were born, then we would all go to hell. You see, Jesus is the only way to be forgiven of our sins. His sacrifice on the cross was necessary in order to make it possible for us to be saved because everyone, "good" and "bad" has sinned. If there were no "bad" people born, then there wouldn't be any "bad" people around who would have sent Jesus to the cross. If that never happened, then we wouldn't be saved from our sins because Jesus would never have been unjustly condemned and His sacrifice would never have happened.

    Second, if someone says that it is wrong for God to allow someone to be born and who will go to hell, then would he rather have God remove our freedom to rebel against Him so that no one can be blamed for sin? If the critic says he only wants those people born who go to heaven, then how are they truly free and how would that fulfill the ultimate plan of God to sacrifice His Son for the redemption of mankind?

    Third, God could have reasons for sending people to hell that we cannot understand.

    Fourth, God is just and always does what is right. Therefore, sending people to hell is the right thing to do, especially when we understand that God is eternally holy and those who sin against God incur an infinite offense because the infinite God is the one who is offended.

    Finally, the Bible simply tells us that people will go to hell. They go there because they are not covered by the sacrifice of Christ. Whether they are created or not does not affect the fact that sinners must be punished; otherwise, the holiness and righteousness of God mean nothing.


    You are aware that Adam never existed right?  The story of Adam and Eve is just that: a story... You can't pick a choose stuff in the bible in an attempt to make your case...

    Why aren't you out killing people who are involved with banking and eating lobsters??  Those are forbidden in the bible, so wouldn't that be god's will??
     
    SirJohnDrake
    SirJohnDrake
    All-Star
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Jan, 2006
    Posts: 14765
    Posted: Dec. 1, 2011 - 8:42 PM ET #1352

    You see...lol

    what did I say in my last post. I said,  "I have doubts that non-believers like you can ever be reasonable enough to accept any explanation but who knows."

    Just remember that SirJohnDrake tried to help you... but who am I to believe that non-believers like you, who have a real hard time in accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord Savior will ever agree and understand an explanation coming from me...lol

    But despite this, because I'm a committed disciple of our Lord Savior Jesus Christ, I will always try to help non-believers to see the  

    Reply

    You see...lol

    what did I say in my last post. I said,  "I have doubts that non-believers like you can ever be reasonable enough to accept any explanation but who knows."

    Just remember that SirJohnDrake tried to help you... but who am I to believe that non-believers like you, who have a real hard time in accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord Savior will ever agree and understand an explanation coming from me...lol

    But despite this, because I'm a committed disciple of our Lord Savior Jesus Christ, I will always try to help non-believers to see the  

     
    Mikniks
    Mikniks
    Veteran
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Nov, 2010
    Posts: 1384
    Posted: Dec. 1, 2011 - 9:01 PM ET #1353

    Okay why arent you out killing people who eat lobsters??
    Reply
    Okay why arent you out killing people who eat lobsters??
     
    CRRECORDS
    CRRECORDS
    Veteran
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Dec, 1999
    Posts: 1197
    Posted: Dec. 1, 2011 - 10:18 PM ET #1354

    Quote Originally Posted by SirJohnDrake:

     

    After this explanation below I hope it brings some understanding to you as to why an all loving God punishes but I have doubts that non-believers like you can ever be reasonable enough to accept any explanation but who knows.

    If God is all-loving, why would He send people to hell? What is hell? Is it a place of eternal torment? Why create creatures knowing they will end up in an eternity of damnation? Is God helpless to save them all?

    Often times, skeptics try to present an idea so that fairness and compassion necessitate that the Christian God cannot be real. For example, they sometimes say that a truly loving God would not create people He knew would go to eternal punishment. Of course this is only an opinion, but it is sometime raised nonetheless. As one skeptic put it, "If God truly loves us (this sacrificial love you talk about) then he would simply say 'I do not want the child to be born'. He is in control and has that ability, doesn't he? No one would not wish any of their children, whom they love, to go through a life of agonizing pain." The main problem with such an approach is that it is overly simplistic and based on emotionalism, not scripture. So, let's look at what the Word of God says.

    First of all, when God made Adam, He made him good. Adam had the freedom to choose to obey or disobey God. Adam is the one who rebelled. God did not make him rebel and God is not responsible for Adam's rebellion. It would be like a parent having a child knowing that the child would eventually disobey the parent.

     Does this mean that the parent is responsible for the child's rebellion when it occurs because the parent knew it would happen? Of course not. Furthermore, if the parent has more children, does he/she not know that some children may very well turn out good and others bad? Should the parents then not have children because some of them might turn out bad? The skeptic, if he is consistent, would urge parents not to have any children at all lest some of them turn out bad.

    The skeptic might say, "But God knows for a fact who will be bad and good. Why allow the people going to hell to be born in the first place?" But, if this is the case and if God arranged it that no "bad" people were born, then we would all go to hell. You see, Jesus is the only way to be forgiven of our sins. His sacrifice on the cross was necessary in order to make it possible for us to be saved because everyone, "good" and "bad" has sinned. If there were no "bad" people born, then there wouldn't be any "bad" people around who would have sent Jesus to the cross. If that never happened, then we wouldn't be saved from our sins because Jesus would never have been unjustly condemned and His sacrifice would never have happened.

    Second, if someone says that it is wrong for God to allow someone to be born and who will go to hell, then would he rather have God remove our freedom to rebel against Him so that no one can be blamed for sin? If the critic says he only wants those people born who go to heaven, then how are they truly free and how would that fulfill the ultimate plan of God to sacrifice His Son for the redemption of mankind?

    Third, God could have reasons for sending people to hell that we cannot understand.

    Fourth, God is just and always does what is right. Therefore, sending people to hell is the right thing to do, especially when we understand that God is eternally holy and those who sin against God incur an infinite offense because the infinite God is the one who is offended.

    Finally, the Bible simply tells us that people will go to hell. They go there because they are not covered by the sacrifice of Christ. Whether they are created or not does not affect the fact that sinners must be punished; otherwise, the holiness and righteousness of God mean nothing.

    Sjd, When you look at child that is deformed or diseased does it ease your mind that it is okay because even though your God did this to the child, it is because Adam rebelled and when that child dies he or she will go to a much better place?

    Do you ever wonder what the child thinks when someone tells them this?

    Do you ever wonder, with more time spent in science, research and education these problems might get solved versuses prayer and sitting in a pew?

     

    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by SirJohnDrake:

     

    After this explanation below I hope it brings some understanding to you as to why an all loving God punishes but I have doubts that non-believers like you can ever be reasonable enough to accept any explanation but who knows.

    If God is all-loving, why would He send people to hell? What is hell? Is it a place of eternal torment? Why create creatures knowing they will end up in an eternity of damnation? Is God helpless to save them all?

    Often times, skeptics try to present an idea so that fairness and compassion necessitate that the Christian God cannot be real. For example, they sometimes say that a truly loving God would not create people He knew would go to eternal punishment. Of course this is only an opinion, but it is sometime raised nonetheless. As one skeptic put it, "If God truly loves us (this sacrificial love you talk about) then he would simply say 'I do not want the child to be born'. He is in control and has that ability, doesn't he? No one would not wish any of their children, whom they love, to go through a life of agonizing pain." The main problem with such an approach is that it is overly simplistic and based on emotionalism, not scripture. So, let's look at what the Word of God says.

    First of all, when God made Adam, He made him good. Adam had the freedom to choose to obey or disobey God. Adam is the one who rebelled. God did not make him rebel and God is not responsible for Adam's rebellion. It would be like a parent having a child knowing that the child would eventually disobey the parent.

     Does this mean that the parent is responsible for the child's rebellion when it occurs because the parent knew it would happen? Of course not. Furthermore, if the parent has more children, does he/she not know that some children may very well turn out good and others bad? Should the parents then not have children because some of them might turn out bad? The skeptic, if he is consistent, would urge parents not to have any children at all lest some of them turn out bad.

    The skeptic might say, "But God knows for a fact who will be bad and good. Why allow the people going to hell to be born in the first place?" But, if this is the case and if God arranged it that no "bad" people were born, then we would all go to hell. You see, Jesus is the only way to be forgiven of our sins. His sacrifice on the cross was necessary in order to make it possible for us to be saved because everyone, "good" and "bad" has sinned. If there were no "bad" people born, then there wouldn't be any "bad" people around who would have sent Jesus to the cross. If that never happened, then we wouldn't be saved from our sins because Jesus would never have been unjustly condemned and His sacrifice would never have happened.

    Second, if someone says that it is wrong for God to allow someone to be born and who will go to hell, then would he rather have God remove our freedom to rebel against Him so that no one can be blamed for sin? If the critic says he only wants those people born who go to heaven, then how are they truly free and how would that fulfill the ultimate plan of God to sacrifice His Son for the redemption of mankind?

    Third, God could have reasons for sending people to hell that we cannot understand.

    Fourth, God is just and always does what is right. Therefore, sending people to hell is the right thing to do, especially when we understand that God is eternally holy and those who sin against God incur an infinite offense because the infinite God is the one who is offended.

    Finally, the Bible simply tells us that people will go to hell. They go there because they are not covered by the sacrifice of Christ. Whether they are created or not does not affect the fact that sinners must be punished; otherwise, the holiness and righteousness of God mean nothing.

    Sjd, When you look at child that is deformed or diseased does it ease your mind that it is okay because even though your God did this to the child, it is because Adam rebelled and when that child dies he or she will go to a much better place?

    Do you ever wonder what the child thinks when someone tells them this?

    Do you ever wonder, with more time spent in science, research and education these problems might get solved versuses prayer and sitting in a pew?

     

     
    SirJohnDrake
    SirJohnDrake
    All-Star
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Jan, 2006
    Posts: 14765
    Posted: Dec. 1, 2011 - 10:26 PM ET #1355

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikniks:

    Okay why arent you out killing people who eat lobsters??

    In the book of Leviticus of the Holy Bible, chapter 11, God tells us what are clean and unclean animals. He tells us, "Of all the marine animals, these are ones you may use for food. You may eat anything from the water if it has both fins and scales, whether taken from salt water or from streams.

    But you must never eat animals from the sea or from rivers that do not have both fins and scales. They are detestable to you. This applies both to little creatures that live in shallow water and to all creatures that live in deep water. They will always be detestable to you. You must never eat their meat or even touch their dead bodies. Any marine animal that does not have both fins and scales is detestable to you.---Leviticus 11:9-12

    So these verses above clearly tell us that we are not to eat any water creature which does not have fins and scales. That would include all shellfish. So we must not eat crabs, lobsters, shrimp, abalone, clams, catfish, sharks, dolphins (the mammal), whales, sturgeon, and a host of others.

    But there are also a host of common fish which we may eat. Among the common edible fish are salmon, tuna, bass, and trout. Like the rules for animals, the rules for fish are easily remembered: If they have fins and scales, they are good for food.

    So we should not eat lobsters and the others I have mentioned but nowhere did command us to kill anybody who eats lobster or any other unclean animals that He tells us not to eat.

    I don't know where you are getting that from besides remember one of God's Ten Commandments it says, "Thous shalt not murder"

    Lastly eating crabs, lobsters, shrimp, clams is very unheathy because of the high cholesterol buildup that will result in one's arteries....wow! could this be why God doesn't want us to eat these marine animals!!

    Reply

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikniks:

    Okay why arent you out killing people who eat lobsters??

    In the book of Leviticus of the Holy Bible, chapter 11, God tells us what are clean and unclean animals. He tells us, "Of all the marine animals, these are ones you may use for food. You may eat anything from the water if it has both fins and scales, whether taken from salt water or from streams.

    But you must never eat animals from the sea or from rivers that do not have both fins and scales. They are detestable to you. This applies both to little creatures that live in shallow water and to all creatures that live in deep water. They will always be detestable to you. You must never eat their meat or even touch their dead bodies. Any marine animal that does not have both fins and scales is detestable to you.---Leviticus 11:9-12

    So these verses above clearly tell us that we are not to eat any water creature which does not have fins and scales. That would include all shellfish. So we must not eat crabs, lobsters, shrimp, abalone, clams, catfish, sharks, dolphins (the mammal), whales, sturgeon, and a host of others.

    But there are also a host of common fish which we may eat. Among the common edible fish are salmon, tuna, bass, and trout. Like the rules for animals, the rules for fish are easily remembered: If they have fins and scales, they are good for food.

    So we should not eat lobsters and the others I have mentioned but nowhere did command us to kill anybody who eats lobster or any other unclean animals that He tells us not to eat.

    I don't know where you are getting that from besides remember one of God's Ten Commandments it says, "Thous shalt not murder"

    Lastly eating crabs, lobsters, shrimp, clams is very unheathy because of the high cholesterol buildup that will result in one's arteries....wow! could this be why God doesn't want us to eat these marine animals!!

     
    SirJohnDrake
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    Posted: Dec. 1, 2011 - 10:35 PM ET #1356

    Correction: So we should not eat lobsters and the others I have mentioned but nowhere did He command us to kill anybody who eats lobster or any other unclean animals that He tells us not to eat.

    Reply

    Correction: So we should not eat lobsters and the others I have mentioned but nowhere did He command us to kill anybody who eats lobster or any other unclean animals that He tells us not to eat.

     
    SirJohnDrake
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    Posted: Dec. 1, 2011 - 10:42 PM ET #1357

    Correction: "Thou shalt not murder"

    Reply

    Correction: "Thou shalt not murder"

     
    Rostos
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    Posted: Dec. 1, 2011 - 10:48 PM ET #1358

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikniks:

    So an all good god hands out punishments?!? Don't you see the inconsistency?!? Are you that blind???

    God is an all loving God but he is also a God of wrath. He has morally sufficient reasons to punish beings that rebel against him.

    Reply

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikniks:

    So an all good god hands out punishments?!? Don't you see the inconsistency?!? Are you that blind???

    God is an all loving God but he is also a God of wrath. He has morally sufficient reasons to punish beings that rebel against him.

     
    Rostos
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    Posted: Dec. 1, 2011 - 10:49 PM ET #1359

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikniks:

    And clearly you have trouble reading... I said there are few people who TRULY believe in god. If one is afraid of death, then they don't really believe in god and heaven.

    And how do you KNOW how many people TRUELY believe in God? How do you know? Surveys conducted reveal the amount of people who believe in a higher being, how many of those reveal if they truely believe?

    Reply

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikniks:

    And clearly you have trouble reading... I said there are few people who TRULY believe in god. If one is afraid of death, then they don't really believe in god and heaven.

    And how do you KNOW how many people TRUELY believe in God? How do you know? Surveys conducted reveal the amount of people who believe in a higher being, how many of those reveal if they truely believe?

     
    Rostos
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    Posted: Dec. 1, 2011 - 10:51 PM ET #1360

    [Quote: Originally Posted by Mikniks] How can you speculate that if statistically the greatest fear for almost everyone is death??

    And if I die and there is a god, he can just forgive me for using the brain he gave me... Or is he too much of an asshole? [/Quote

    What on earth are you talking about? The instructions are very clear, accept Christ for who he is and what he did for us and you will be saved. Its really that simple.

    His sending of Christ to us shows his level of love and how much he extends his grace to us....

    Reply

    [Quote: Originally Posted by Mikniks] How can you speculate that if statistically the greatest fear for almost everyone is death??

    And if I die and there is a god, he can just forgive me for using the brain he gave me... Or is he too much of an asshole? [/Quote

    What on earth are you talking about? The instructions are very clear, accept Christ for who he is and what he did for us and you will be saved. Its really that simple.

    His sending of Christ to us shows his level of love and how much he extends his grace to us....

     
    Rostos
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    Posted: Dec. 1, 2011 - 10:54 PM ET #1361

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikniks:


    You are aware that Adam never existed right?  The story of Adam and Eve is just that: a story... You can't pick a choose stuff in the bible in an attempt to make your case...
     
    Adam and Eve NEVER existed? tell us, were you there at the time? Ia am  all eyes...

    Why aren't you out killing people who are involved with banking and eating lobsters??  Those are forbidden in the bible, so wouldn't that be god's will??
     
    God is the judge, not us........
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikniks:


    You are aware that Adam never existed right?  The story of Adam and Eve is just that: a story... You can't pick a choose stuff in the bible in an attempt to make your case...
     
    Adam and Eve NEVER existed? tell us, were you there at the time? Ia am  all eyes...

    Why aren't you out killing people who are involved with banking and eating lobsters??  Those are forbidden in the bible, so wouldn't that be god's will??
     
    God is the judge, not us........
     
    Rostos
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    Posted: Dec. 1, 2011 - 10:56 PM ET #1362

    Quote Originally Posted by CRRECORDS:

    Sjd, When you look at child that is deformed or diseased does it ease your mind that it is okay because even though your God did this to the child, it is because Adam rebelled and when that child dies he or she will go to a much better place?

    Do you ever wonder what the child thinks when someone tells them this?

    Do you ever wonder, with more time spent in science, research and education these problems might get solved versuses prayer and sitting in a pew?

     

    We are ALL born into sin. It doesnt matter who what where how, we are all born into sin and will all die. God is under NO obligation to prolong or extend or improve anyones quality of life......

    What if the baby that dies enters a world far far far better than the one we are living here, is God cruel then?

    Too much emphasis by atheists are put on the quality of life in this world, a world that is only temporary, what is the point?

    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by CRRECORDS:

    Sjd, When you look at child that is deformed or diseased does it ease your mind that it is okay because even though your God did this to the child, it is because Adam rebelled and when that child dies he or she will go to a much better place?

    Do you ever wonder what the child thinks when someone tells them this?

    Do you ever wonder, with more time spent in science, research and education these problems might get solved versuses prayer and sitting in a pew?

     

    We are ALL born into sin. It doesnt matter who what where how, we are all born into sin and will all die. God is under NO obligation to prolong or extend or improve anyones quality of life......

    What if the baby that dies enters a world far far far better than the one we are living here, is God cruel then?

    Too much emphasis by atheists are put on the quality of life in this world, a world that is only temporary, what is the point?

     
    Rostos
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    Posted: Dec. 1, 2011 - 11:04 PM ET #1363

    Quote Originally Posted by SirJohnDrake:

     

    After this explanation below I hope it brings some understanding to you as to why an all loving God punishes but I have doubts that non-believers like you can ever be reasonable enough to accept any explanation but who knows.

    If God is all-loving, why would He send people to hell? What is hell? Is it a place of eternal torment? Why create creatures knowing they will end up in an eternity of damnation? Is God helpless to save them all?

    Often times, skeptics try to present an idea so that fairness and compassion necessitate that the Christian God cannot be real. For example, they sometimes say that a truly loving God would not create people He knew would go to eternal punishment. Of course this is only an opinion, but it is sometime raised nonetheless. As one skeptic put it, "If God truly loves us (this sacrificial love you talk about) then he would simply say 'I do not want the child to be born'. He is in control and has that ability, doesn't he? No one would not wish any of their children, whom they love, to go through a life of agonizing pain." The main problem with such an approach is that it is overly simplistic and based on emotionalism, not scripture. So, let's look at what the Word of God says.

    First of all, when God made Adam, He made him good. Adam had the freedom to choose to obey or disobey God. Adam is the one who rebelled. God did not make him rebel and God is not responsible for Adam's rebellion. It would be like a parent having a child knowing that the child would eventually disobey the parent.

     Does this mean that the parent is responsible for the child's rebellion when it occurs because the parent knew it would happen? Of course not. Furthermore, if the parent has more children, does he/she not know that some children may very well turn out good and others bad? Should the parents then not have children because some of them might turn out bad? The skeptic, if he is consistent, would urge parents not to have any children at all lest some of them turn out bad.

    The skeptic might say, "But God knows for a fact who will be bad and good. Why allow the people going to hell to be born in the first place?" But, if this is the case and if God arranged it that no "bad" people were born, then we would all go to hell. You see, Jesus is the only way to be forgiven of our sins. His sacrifice on the cross was necessary in order to make it possible for us to be saved because everyone, "good" and "bad" has sinned. If there were no "bad" people born, then there wouldn't be any "bad" people around who would have sent Jesus to the cross. If that never happened, then we wouldn't be saved from our sins because Jesus would never have been unjustly condemned and His sacrifice would never have happened.

    Second, if someone says that it is wrong for God to allow someone to be born and who will go to hell, then would he rather have God remove our freedom to rebel against Him so that no one can be blamed for sin? If the critic says he only wants those people born who go to heaven, then how are they truly free and how would that fulfill the ultimate plan of God to sacrifice His Son for the redemption of mankind?

    Third, God could have reasons for sending people to hell that we cannot understand.

    Fourth, God is just and always does what is right. Therefore, sending people to hell is the right thing to do, especially when we understand that God is eternally holy and those who sin against God incur an infinite offense because the infinite God is the one who is offended.

    Finally, the Bible simply tells us that people will go to hell. They go there because they are not covered by the sacrifice of Christ. Whether they are created or not does not affect the fact that sinners must be punished; otherwise, the holiness and righteousness of God mean nothing.

    Very well said

    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by SirJohnDrake:

     

    After this explanation below I hope it brings some understanding to you as to why an all loving God punishes but I have doubts that non-believers like you can ever be reasonable enough to accept any explanation but who knows.

    If God is all-loving, why would He send people to hell? What is hell? Is it a place of eternal torment? Why create creatures knowing they will end up in an eternity of damnation? Is God helpless to save them all?

    Often times, skeptics try to present an idea so that fairness and compassion necessitate that the Christian God cannot be real. For example, they sometimes say that a truly loving God would not create people He knew would go to eternal punishment. Of course this is only an opinion, but it is sometime raised nonetheless. As one skeptic put it, "If God truly loves us (this sacrificial love you talk about) then he would simply say 'I do not want the child to be born'. He is in control and has that ability, doesn't he? No one would not wish any of their children, whom they love, to go through a life of agonizing pain." The main problem with such an approach is that it is overly simplistic and based on emotionalism, not scripture. So, let's look at what the Word of God says.

    First of all, when God made Adam, He made him good. Adam had the freedom to choose to obey or disobey God. Adam is the one who rebelled. God did not make him rebel and God is not responsible for Adam's rebellion. It would be like a parent having a child knowing that the child would eventually disobey the parent.

     Does this mean that the parent is responsible for the child's rebellion when it occurs because the parent knew it would happen? Of course not. Furthermore, if the parent has more children, does he/she not know that some children may very well turn out good and others bad? Should the parents then not have children because some of them might turn out bad? The skeptic, if he is consistent, would urge parents not to have any children at all lest some of them turn out bad.

    The skeptic might say, "But God knows for a fact who will be bad and good. Why allow the people going to hell to be born in the first place?" But, if this is the case and if God arranged it that no "bad" people were born, then we would all go to hell. You see, Jesus is the only way to be forgiven of our sins. His sacrifice on the cross was necessary in order to make it possible for us to be saved because everyone, "good" and "bad" has sinned. If there were no "bad" people born, then there wouldn't be any "bad" people around who would have sent Jesus to the cross. If that never happened, then we wouldn't be saved from our sins because Jesus would never have been unjustly condemned and His sacrifice would never have happened.

    Second, if someone says that it is wrong for God to allow someone to be born and who will go to hell, then would he rather have God remove our freedom to rebel against Him so that no one can be blamed for sin? If the critic says he only wants those people born who go to heaven, then how are they truly free and how would that fulfill the ultimate plan of God to sacrifice His Son for the redemption of mankind?

    Third, God could have reasons for sending people to hell that we cannot understand.

    Fourth, God is just and always does what is right. Therefore, sending people to hell is the right thing to do, especially when we understand that God is eternally holy and those who sin against God incur an infinite offense because the infinite God is the one who is offended.

    Finally, the Bible simply tells us that people will go to hell. They go there because they are not covered by the sacrifice of Christ. Whether they are created or not does not affect the fact that sinners must be punished; otherwise, the holiness and righteousness of God mean nothing.

    Very well said

     
    SirJohnDrake
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    Posted: Dec. 1, 2011 - 11:10 PM ET #1364

    Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

    We are ALL born into sin. It doesnt matter who what where how, we are all born into sin and will all die. God is under NO obligation to prolong or extend or improve anyones quality of life......

    What if the baby that dies enters a world far far far better than the one we are living here, is God cruel then?

    Too much emphasis by atheists are put on the quality of life in this world, a world that is only temporary, what is the point?

    Well said!

    Thanks Rostos I couldn't have said it better as always thanks for your contributions on this thread my friend!

    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

    We are ALL born into sin. It doesnt matter who what where how, we are all born into sin and will all die. God is under NO obligation to prolong or extend or improve anyones quality of life......

    What if the baby that dies enters a world far far far better than the one we are living here, is God cruel then?

    Too much emphasis by atheists are put on the quality of life in this world, a world that is only temporary, what is the point?

    Well said!

    Thanks Rostos I couldn't have said it better as always thanks for your contributions on this thread my friend!

     
    SirJohnDrake
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    Posted: Dec. 1, 2011 - 11:40 PM ET #1365

    Quote Originally Posted by matt4000:

    EX4life, Rostos, SirJohnDrake and the others.

    Thanks for all the great insight, knowledge and Holy Spirit led answers that you guys have gave in this thread.

    I have had many ups and downs as a believer, yet have also learned a lot over the years, but have learned new things thanks to you guys!

    Much appreciated and keep up the good work!

    Matt

    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by matt4000:

    EX4life, Rostos, SirJohnDrake and the others.

    Thanks for all the great insight, knowledge and Holy Spirit led answers that you guys have gave in this thread.

    I have had many ups and downs as a believer, yet have also learned a lot over the years, but have learned new things thanks to you guys!

    Much appreciated and keep up the good work!

    Matt

     
    Mikniks
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    Posted: Dec. 2, 2011 - 12:37 AM ET #1366

    Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death.  Such evil must be purged from Israel. 


    Oh I thought thou shall not murder?  Bible says to kill a LOT...


    And Rostos, you clearly don't understand me...  If you TRULY believe in god and heaven, then you should not be afraid to die...  If you TRULY believe you are going to heaven, then why be scared to die??
    Reply
    Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death.  Such evil must be purged from Israel. 


    Oh I thought thou shall not murder?  Bible says to kill a LOT...


    And Rostos, you clearly don't understand me...  If you TRULY believe in god and heaven, then you should not be afraid to die...  If you TRULY believe you are going to heaven, then why be scared to die??
     
    SYSTEM
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    Posted: Dec. 2, 2011 - 1:22 AM ET #1367

    Quote Originally Posted by SirJohnDrake:

    Well said!

    Thanks Rostos I couldn't have said it better as always thanks for your contributions on this thread my friend!


    sjd rostos
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by SirJohnDrake:

    Well said!

    Thanks Rostos I couldn't have said it better as always thanks for your contributions on this thread my friend!


    sjd rostos
     
    Rostos
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    Posted: Dec. 2, 2011 - 1:24 AM ET #1368

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikniks:

    Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death.  Such evil must be purged from Israel. 


    Oh I thought thou shall not murder?  Bible says to kill a LOT...


    And Rostos, you clearly don't understand me...  If you TRULY believe in god and heaven, then you should not be afraid to die...  If you TRULY believe you are going to heaven, then why be scared to die??

    Watch

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Fd_K9Ia0Lw

    Furthermore, did i say i was scared to die? If so, where?

    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikniks:

    Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death.  Such evil must be purged from Israel. 


    Oh I thought thou shall not murder?  Bible says to kill a LOT...


    And Rostos, you clearly don't understand me...  If you TRULY believe in god and heaven, then you should not be afraid to die...  If you TRULY believe you are going to heaven, then why be scared to die??

    Watch

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Fd_K9Ia0Lw

    Furthermore, did i say i was scared to die? If so, where?

     
    Rostos
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    Posted: Dec. 2, 2011 - 1:24 AM ET #1369

    Quote Originally Posted by SYSTEM:


    sjd rostos

    Just like you and KittyKatz huh?

    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by SYSTEM:


    sjd rostos

    Just like you and KittyKatz huh?

     
    SirJohnDrake
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    Posted: Dec. 2, 2011 - 1:28 AM ET #1370

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikniks:



    Oh I thought thou shall not murder?  Bible says to kill a LOT...


    During the time of Moses in the Old Testament there were punishments for disobedience and these punishments for disobedience from God were direct instructions to Moses to carry out and should not be confused by one thinking God wants us to carry out those punishments today too...no, no, no!!! This is how people can get in serious trouble today by misinterpreting the bible.

    It is like a military commander who gives a direct order to a subordinate to carry out. If someone else sees the order it is not for them to carry out. Only the subordinate who received the order has the authority to carry it out.

     And yes God said "thou shalt not murder" but when He gives a direct order that is the only time where killing is permitted and this killing by the authority of God is justified because it is a killing or punishment for disobedience which to God is a serious capital offense.

     So these killings are not murder....understand? They are justified punishments ordered by God Almighty!

    Again one of God's Ten Commandments says, "Thou shalt not murder"

    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikniks:



    Oh I thought thou shall not murder?  Bible says to kill a LOT...


    During the time of Moses in the Old Testament there were punishments for disobedience and these punishments for disobedience from God were direct instructions to Moses to carry out and should not be confused by one thinking God wants us to carry out those punishments today too...no, no, no!!! This is how people can get in serious trouble today by misinterpreting the bible.

    It is like a military commander who gives a direct order to a subordinate to carry out. If someone else sees the order it is not for them to carry out. Only the subordinate who received the order has the authority to carry it out.

     And yes God said "thou shalt not murder" but when He gives a direct order that is the only time where killing is permitted and this killing by the authority of God is justified because it is a killing or punishment for disobedience which to God is a serious capital offense.

     So these killings are not murder....understand? They are justified punishments ordered by God Almighty!

    Again one of God's Ten Commandments says, "Thou shalt not murder"

     
    Mikniks
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    Posted: Dec. 2, 2011 - 2:35 AM ET #1371

    Rostos, I didn't mean YOU. I was speaking in a general sense. If people TRULY believe in god and heaven, then why be afraid of death?
    Reply
    Rostos, I didn't mean YOU. I was speaking in a general sense. If people TRULY believe in god and heaven, then why be afraid of death?
     
    CRRECORDS
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    Posted: Dec. 2, 2011 - 9:49 AM ET #1372

    Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

    We are ALL born into sin. It doesnt matter who what where how, we are all born into sin and will all die. God is under NO obligation to prolong or extend or improve anyones quality of life......

    What if the baby that dies enters a world far far far better than the one we are living here, is God cruel then?

    Too much emphasis by atheists are put on the quality of life in this world, a world that is only temporary, what is the point?

     To think the atheists put too much emphasis on the quality of life in this world, to use it as negative, is rather cold and insensitive.

    to thine own self be true

    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

    We are ALL born into sin. It doesnt matter who what where how, we are all born into sin and will all die. God is under NO obligation to prolong or extend or improve anyones quality of life......

    What if the baby that dies enters a world far far far better than the one we are living here, is God cruel then?

    Too much emphasis by atheists are put on the quality of life in this world, a world that is only temporary, what is the point?

     To think the atheists put too much emphasis on the quality of life in this world, to use it as negative, is rather cold and insensitive.

    to thine own self be true

     
    bej0101
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    Posted: Dec. 2, 2011 - 12:47 PM ET #1373

    JESUS CHRIST is our LORD and SAVIOR..accept HIM and confess youe sins and the kingdom of heaven will be yours too...AMEN!!
    Reply
    JESUS CHRIST is our LORD and SAVIOR..accept HIM and confess youe sins and the kingdom of heaven will be yours too...AMEN!!
     
    SirJohnDrake
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    Posted: Dec. 2, 2011 - 4:51 PM ET #1374

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikniks:

    Rostos, I didn't mean YOU. I was speaking in a general sense. If people TRULY believe in god and heaven, then why be afraid of death?

    I already answered this question on the previous page post #348.

    What?...you didn't like my answer?...lol  It wasn't good enough for you?...lol

    Reply

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikniks:

    Rostos, I didn't mean YOU. I was speaking in a general sense. If people TRULY believe in god and heaven, then why be afraid of death?

    I already answered this question on the previous page post #348.

    What?...you didn't like my answer?...lol  It wasn't good enough for you?...lol

     
     
    SirJohnDrake
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    Posted: Dec. 2, 2011 - 5:05 PM ET #1375

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikniks:



    What is your excuse for "god" allowing people to die from natural disasters??  How is that okay?  He just lets earthquakes and hurricanes kill millions...  That's nice of him...

    Why does God allow earthquakes, tornados, hurricanes, tsunamis, typhoons, cyclones, mudslides, and other natural disasters? Tragedies such as Hurricane Katrina in 2005, the 2008 cyclone in Myanmar, the 2010 earthquake in Haiti, and the 2011 earthquake/tsunami near Japan cause many people to question God’s goodness.

    It is distressing that natural disasters are often termed "acts of God" while no "credit" is given to God for years, decades, or even centuries of peaceful weather.

    God created the whole universe and the laws of nature (Genesis 1:1). Most natural disasters are a result of these laws at work. Hurricanes, typhoons, and tornados are the results of divergent weather patterns colliding. Earthquakes are the result of the earth’s plate structure shifting. A tsunami is caused by an underwater earthquake.

    The Bible proclaims that Jesus Christ holds all of nature together (Colossians 1:16-17). Could God prevent natural disasters? Absolutely! Does God :16-sometimes influence the weather? Yes, as we see in Deu. 11:17 and James 5:17. Numbers 16:30-34 shows us that God sometimes causes natural disasters as a judgment against sin.

    The book of Revelation describes many events which could definitely be described as natural disasters (Revelation chapters 6, 8, and 16). Is every natural disaster a punishment from God? Absolutely not.

    In much the same way that God allows evil people to commit evil acts, God allows the earth to reflect the consequences sin has had on creation.

    Romans 8:19-21 tells us, "The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God."

    The fall of humanity into sin had effects on everything, including the world we inhabit. Everything in creation is subject to "frustration" and "decay." Sin is the ultimate cause of natural disasters just as it is the cause of death, disease, and suffering.

    We can understand why natural disasters occur. What we do not understand is why God allows them to occur. Why did God allow the tsunami to kill over 225,000 people in Asia? Why did God allow Hurricane Katrina to destroy the homes of thousands of people?

    For one thing, such events shake our confidence in this life and force us to think about eternity. Churches are usually filled after disasters as people realize how tenuous their lives really are and how life can be taken away in an instant. What we do know is this: God is good!

    Many amazing miracles occurred during the course of natural disasters that prevented even greater loss of life. Natural disasters cause millions of people to reevaluate their priorities in life.

     Hundreds of millions of dollars in aid is sent to help the people who are suffering. Christian ministries have the opportunity to help, minister, counsel, pray, and lead people to saving faith in Christ! God can, and does, bring great good out of terrible tragedies (Romans 8:28).

    Reply

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikniks:



    What is your excuse for "god" allowing people to die from natural disasters??  How is that okay?  He just lets earthquakes and hurricanes kill millions...  That's nice of him...

    Why does God allow earthquakes, tornados, hurricanes, tsunamis, typhoons, cyclones, mudslides, and other natural disasters? Tragedies such as Hurricane Katrina in 2005, the 2008 cyclone in Myanmar, the 2010 earthquake in Haiti, and the 2011 earthquake/tsunami near Japan cause many people to question God’s goodness.

    It is distressing that natural disasters are often termed "acts of God" while no "credit" is given to God for years, decades, or even centuries of peaceful weather.

    God created the whole universe and the laws of nature (Genesis 1:1). Most natural disasters are a result of these laws at work. Hurricanes, typhoons, and tornados are the results of divergent weather patterns colliding. Earthquakes are the result of the earth’s plate structure shifting. A tsunami is caused by an underwater earthquake.

    The Bible proclaims that Jesus Christ holds all of nature together (Colossians 1:16-17). Could God prevent natural disasters? Absolutely! Does God :16-sometimes influence the weather? Yes, as we see in Deu. 11:17 and James 5:17. Numbers 16:30-34 shows us that God sometimes causes natural disasters as a judgment against sin.

    The book of Revelation describes many events which could definitely be described as natural disasters (Revelation chapters 6, 8, and 16). Is every natural disaster a punishment from God? Absolutely not.

    In much the same way that God allows evil people to commit evil acts, God allows the earth to reflect the consequences sin has had on creation.

    Romans 8:19-21 tells us, "The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God."

    The fall of humanity into sin had effects on everything, including the world we inhabit. Everything in creation is subject to "frustration" and "decay." Sin is the ultimate cause of natural disasters just as it is the cause of death, disease, and suffering.

    We can understand why natural disasters occur. What we do not understand is why God allows them to occur. Why did God allow the tsunami to kill over 225,000 people in Asia? Why did God allow Hurricane Katrina to destroy the homes of thousands of people?

    For one thing, such events shake our confidence in this life and force us to think about eternity. Churches are usually filled after disasters as people realize how tenuous their lives really are and how life can be taken away in an instant. What we do know is this: God is good!

    Many amazing miracles occurred during the course of natural disasters that prevented even greater loss of life. Natural disasters cause millions of people to reevaluate their priorities in life.

     Hundreds of millions of dollars in aid is sent to help the people who are suffering. Christian ministries have the opportunity to help, minister, counsel, pray, and lead people to saving faith in Christ! God can, and does, bring great good out of terrible tragedies (Romans 8:28).

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