Poker Players - do you think that poker is beatable longterm?

i do both every day... and there is no way in hell someone is playing as many hands in a few weeks as Doyle played live in his lifetime... that is just a ridiculous statement...

maybe in a year that would be the case, but even then, who cares?  when you play rush poker you aren't getting anything near the same experience as even playing a normal ring game online, let alone a live table... and playing multi-tabled, you still aren't really "playing" the majority of those hands...

it is apples and oranges...

there's a big difference between saying "Tom Dwan has seen more hands in his short career than Doyle Brunson" and saying "someone who plays multi-table or rush poker for several weeks sees more hands than Doyle Brunson in his lifetime"... i agree with the first statement, but the second statement is false!

also, just because Tom Dwan is a freak of poker, does not mean everyone who sees that many hands online can beat Doyle Brunson... Dwan is more of an exception than a rule when it comes to the online poker world...

Tom Dwan, in my opinion, belongs in the same category as Ivey and Brunson, and nobody else... don't make the mistake of thinking that all online poker players have that level of skill... they do not!

Scal, now I gotta go against you as I think the best players are the live table guys. Internet is good for math but there is no substitute for being able to read players and know the math like the best who play lots of live or some of both.

Also number of hands played lifetime helps to a certain point and then more does not necessarily = better IMHO

there are many who can beat the pros... but Dwan is one of a very small number that can sit at a table with the likes of Ivey, Brunson, Lederer, Negreanu, Matusow, Ferguson, Seidel, Lindgren, etc. and not get their ass consistently handed to them... they might be winning just as much money in poker winnings, because they are capitalizing on this huge ocean of fish that live online, and they are seeing more hands... but the true pros are the ones that can sit at a table with the best of the best, playing high stakes poker, and hold their own consistently... that requires an acute ability to read your opponent, and that is an incredibly large part of what it means to be an expert poker player...

among online players, those are few and far between... very very few... to even hint that online players are taking over among the best in the world is completely off base...

WRONG!  The true "pros" pay their rent and almost solely make their living strictly off their card winnings.  Once you have sponsorship in a site or are part owner of a site, the pro moniker is GONE.  Ivey made his initial nut off his card playing abilities, and I think that justifiably led to his Full Tilt fortune.  So he is an excellent player, but in no way a pro any more since his livelihood is no longer dependent on his poker results.

ugh!  you're talking semantics... i am talking skill level...

forget the word "pros"... let's call it the "best in the game"... and the guys who are the best are the ones who can sit at a live table with the rest of the best, and hold their own... and my point is that Tom Dwan is one of a very small number of online players that can sit at a table with the likes of Ivey, Lederer, Matusow, Brunson, Negreanu, etc., and hold their own... most of those online players get abused when they step into that realm...

Lets say we start with 400 people and we all have to flip a coin, if it lands on heads we get to stay in the game and flip again, if it lands on tails you're out,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, so after the first round of flips about 200 of us gets heads and the other 200 that got tails are out,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, now the 200 winners flip again, this time i get another heads along with about 100 others so we move on,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, we flip again, i get heads again along with about 50 others and we get to keep playing ,,,,,,,,,,,,, we flip again and i get heads yet again with about 25 others so we keep playing,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, we flip again, heads again for me, only about 12 left now, we flip again i get another heads along with about 6 others,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, well we keep flipping and i luckily keep getting heads until i'm the last man standing,,,,am i the greatest coin flipper ever? ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

we might even do this 25 times a year, and out of that 25 flipping contest there might even be someone who wins 2 or 3 times,,,, several more will win 1 time and have several top 25 finishes,,,,, but on the other hand there's going to be flippers that did'nt win and could'nt even get a top 25 finish, are they just terrible coin flippers??? ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, this is kinda how the WPT works,,, you have 300 or 400 players that are very similer in skill but yet after 25 tournaments some are going to look like genuises and others will look like fools, just like the coin flippers!  ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, also the genuises might even go 3 or 4 seasons in a row winning a tournament and finishing in the top 25 several times, and the fools might be so unlucky to never win and have few top 25 finishes, variance guarantee's it ,,,,,,, but if these same 400 players keep at it for years then you'll finally see some flip flopping of the top ranked players,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, thats why someone like Negreanu can look like gold for a few years but then all of a sudden he cant do shit!

 I hear people overuse the term all the time, and "pro" is poor substitute for an excellent player.  That being said, I think of the players you have mentioned, Ivey, Dwan and Doyle Brunson are excellent players.  However, I would consider Lederer and Negreanu decent players at best.  And Matusow is a train wreck waiting to happen. 

I would be curious to see if Dwan can maintain his success long-term, as he plays very aggressive and constantly puts a lot of pressure on his opponent.  He has balls of steel, but I do not know how long that can last.  It seems like tight play by his opponents and the inevitable huge loss in a cash game or two will slow him down.  But only time will tell.  He is one of the most feared in the game today, along with Ivey. 

As far as Negreanu, he irks the hell out of me with his inane babble and his constant misreads.  "I knew you had me beat, but I will donate a bunch of chips just to see your hand." 

One player not mentioned is Phil Laak.  He is a pro IMO, as he consistently plays in big cash games without any sponsorship that I know of.  Even though he is a very intelligent man, I do not see how he does it. 

So by your theory Tiger Woods is not a pro golfer because he makes 95% of his income by endorsements/investments?

He is just happy to be alive right now.

I am specifically referring to people who supposedly make a living off of gambling on cards.  Most good ATHLETES will have the opportunity for endorsements as it comes with the territory.  As far as marketability, what products do poker players endorse besides poker sites?  You do not see Ivey doing ads for Nike, or Doyle Brunson doing them for Metamucil, or Negreanu for feminine hygiene products (even though he would probably excel in that role). 

 Laak puzzles me.  What's his story?  Did he have a life-threatening disease that he overcame, or does he stiff a lot of lenders, like TJ Cloutier is infamous for?  I am not aware of any outside income Laak has to sustain the inevitable losing streak that every gambler incurs.