To address the economic question, the GDP figures of Trump vs. O'bama are in the other thread, "" Positive news for America from President Biden and the Democrats"" Post#1474.
Here is the data ;
2020 ; (2.77%) (Pandemic)
2019 ; 2.29%
2018 ; 2.95%
2017 ; 2.24% (Tax Cuts & Jobs Act passed)
2016 ; 1.67%
2015 ; 2.71%
2014 ; 2.29%
2013 ; 1.84%
2012 ; 2.28%
2011 ; 1.55%
2010 ; 2.71%
2009 ; (2.6%) (Financial Crisis)
Ave. Annual GDP Growth under Trump (2017-2019) ; 2.5%
Ave. Annual GDP Growth under O'bama (2010 - 2017) ; 2.15%
* A few things to note ;
- Years 2009 and 2020 have been thrown out in the data due to the Financial Crisis & the Pandemic.... Keep in mind though, Trump was not able to benefit from the big "bounce back" in 2021, which was 5.95% growth !! O'bama benefited from this clearly in 2010.
- O'bama has absolutely no excuse for "anemic" GDP growth of 1.x % in 2011, 2013, and 2016...
- GDP growth accelerated in 2018 after the 2017 Tax Cuts & Jobs Act was passed.
- The Pandemic seriously interrupted the economic cycle and GDP growth under Trump. It will always remain a big question mark what those numbers in 2020 would've been, absent the Pandemic.
@wallstreetcappers
To address the economic question, the GDP figures of Trump vs. O'bama are in the other thread, "" Positive news for America from President Biden and the Democrats"" Post#1474.
Here is the data ;
2020 ; (2.77%) (Pandemic)
2019 ; 2.29%
2018 ; 2.95%
2017 ; 2.24% (Tax Cuts & Jobs Act passed)
2016 ; 1.67%
2015 ; 2.71%
2014 ; 2.29%
2013 ; 1.84%
2012 ; 2.28%
2011 ; 1.55%
2010 ; 2.71%
2009 ; (2.6%) (Financial Crisis)
Ave. Annual GDP Growth under Trump (2017-2019) ; 2.5%
Ave. Annual GDP Growth under O'bama (2010 - 2017) ; 2.15%
* A few things to note ;
- Years 2009 and 2020 have been thrown out in the data due to the Financial Crisis & the Pandemic.... Keep in mind though, Trump was not able to benefit from the big "bounce back" in 2021, which was 5.95% growth !! O'bama benefited from this clearly in 2010.
- O'bama has absolutely no excuse for "anemic" GDP growth of 1.x % in 2011, 2013, and 2016...
- GDP growth accelerated in 2018 after the 2017 Tax Cuts & Jobs Act was passed.
- The Pandemic seriously interrupted the economic cycle and GDP growth under Trump. It will always remain a big question mark what those numbers in 2020 would've been, absent the Pandemic.
@Rush51 Neither of your suggestions regarding Israel or Ukraine has anything to do with Trump or Biden. Trump got lucky and I am glad he did because the guy does not have the chops for diplomacy or tough choices it is fortunate the soft belly pro shop leader was not tested or given big responsibility, his zero ego would have led to potentially awful results. Ukraine broke the terms of their Russian freedom when they constantly entertained making deals with the west and taunted Putin to do something to stop them and as we see it bit them in the rump. Did you think Russia would twiddle thumbs as Ukraine floated NATO ambitions? Why are we shocked when Russia took action when Ukraine breaks the terms given to be granted a satellite status? That isnt a Biden or Trump issue, but keep pressing the partisan button it works great! The moment Bibi got back in the game the whole region was doomed and notice how the UN and so many impartial leaders are strongly suggesting a different route, but the war monger will not be told what to do, yes that is a partisan blame setup if Ive ever seen one.
Wall, you are seriously off the mark , here. You act as though Russia invaded Ukraine in 2022. No, that is when the "big offensive" took place.
But you are neglecting the fact that Russia invaded Ukraineway back in 2014...... Under that other weak Dem president,.... O'bama.
Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:
@Rush51 Neither of your suggestions regarding Israel or Ukraine has anything to do with Trump or Biden. Trump got lucky and I am glad he did because the guy does not have the chops for diplomacy or tough choices it is fortunate the soft belly pro shop leader was not tested or given big responsibility, his zero ego would have led to potentially awful results. Ukraine broke the terms of their Russian freedom when they constantly entertained making deals with the west and taunted Putin to do something to stop them and as we see it bit them in the rump. Did you think Russia would twiddle thumbs as Ukraine floated NATO ambitions? Why are we shocked when Russia took action when Ukraine breaks the terms given to be granted a satellite status? That isnt a Biden or Trump issue, but keep pressing the partisan button it works great! The moment Bibi got back in the game the whole region was doomed and notice how the UN and so many impartial leaders are strongly suggesting a different route, but the war monger will not be told what to do, yes that is a partisan blame setup if Ive ever seen one.
Wall, you are seriously off the mark , here. You act as though Russia invaded Ukraine in 2022. No, that is when the "big offensive" took place.
But you are neglecting the fact that Russia invaded Ukraineway back in 2014...... Under that other weak Dem president,.... O'bama.
Those stats are not proof of extreme variance at all, most long timers have been here through Bush and Obama and Trump and now Biden and the truth is that the FED erroneously fought to force inflation for a decade through some of Obama and some of Trump, I say erroneous because they think that rates either force or suppress inflation and that is not accurate at all and we saw it then and we see it now.
These clowns think that Volcker is still in charge and that banks actually borrow and lend and make profits off the difference between borrow rates and lending rates. In this theory the concept of monetary policy works- FED lends, banks take funds and create a money multiplier that directly correlates to economic expansion and contraction, its textbook econ 101 right as if I was in college again. That theory is garbage and has been since even before the financial crisis..because the reason for the crisis is that banks speculated and were not lenders and borrowers but speculators and packagers of toxic mortgages to make excess profits. Banks borrowed, issued levered mortages and made a profit off origination fees and interest rates, but then packaged and sold products of low quality due to leveraging and greed and due to this and using such leveraging on trash loans the whole thing caved in. Some similar scenarios caused the expansion and crash of fracking (banks over extended then cut off funding) and the failure of recent silicon valley banks that over leveraged on illiquid assets and crashed.
Point is that the reason why growth was cruddy and was very unimpressive on a historical basis under Trump is the FED could not force inflation..there was too much supply to force higher prices. There was too much supply because capital was cheap and multi nationals could almost finance free expand supply, it cost like zero to produce so to grow sales then you leverage and generate revenue even though the margins were not as good as prices were low due to excess supply. It took a supply crash and a total gutting of excess capacity to kick start inflation. Companies were not producing due to Covid, supply chain crimped production and once the excess supply was depleted the imbalance took hold. Now even with steady to lesser demand, the lack of supply meant higher prices and when you add in higher cost of goods, corps raised prices and they were able to raise prices because there was no competition on supply, all corps were in the same boat so all raised prices and now prices are still elevated due to corporate greed knowing the environment is strong for pricing, AND cost of capital is higher so that marginal excess production is not happening like before, corps are not "over producing" so the inventories are not stockpiling and that means prices will not come crashing down anytime soon...and there is your inflation.
The FED could not force inflation when they wanted, they cannot suppress inflation when they want and that is because banks are not borrowers and lenders, that is why Obama/Trump/Biden are merely puppets in the chair unable to really impact inflation or deflation. If the FED wanted to stop inflation the actual course of action is to stop banks for leveraging and gambling in risk markets, require banks to lend and stop their overnight facility, stop paying banks to park cash and put in place some restrictions on what banks can do with capital borrowed from the FED...that means no more treasury leveraging, no more speculating in futures markets and the stock market, return to borrowing and lending. If the FED wants to break inflation they need to lower rates and increase supply make it cheap again and that would balance the curve.
@Rush51
Those stats are not proof of extreme variance at all, most long timers have been here through Bush and Obama and Trump and now Biden and the truth is that the FED erroneously fought to force inflation for a decade through some of Obama and some of Trump, I say erroneous because they think that rates either force or suppress inflation and that is not accurate at all and we saw it then and we see it now.
These clowns think that Volcker is still in charge and that banks actually borrow and lend and make profits off the difference between borrow rates and lending rates. In this theory the concept of monetary policy works- FED lends, banks take funds and create a money multiplier that directly correlates to economic expansion and contraction, its textbook econ 101 right as if I was in college again. That theory is garbage and has been since even before the financial crisis..because the reason for the crisis is that banks speculated and were not lenders and borrowers but speculators and packagers of toxic mortgages to make excess profits. Banks borrowed, issued levered mortages and made a profit off origination fees and interest rates, but then packaged and sold products of low quality due to leveraging and greed and due to this and using such leveraging on trash loans the whole thing caved in. Some similar scenarios caused the expansion and crash of fracking (banks over extended then cut off funding) and the failure of recent silicon valley banks that over leveraged on illiquid assets and crashed.
Point is that the reason why growth was cruddy and was very unimpressive on a historical basis under Trump is the FED could not force inflation..there was too much supply to force higher prices. There was too much supply because capital was cheap and multi nationals could almost finance free expand supply, it cost like zero to produce so to grow sales then you leverage and generate revenue even though the margins were not as good as prices were low due to excess supply. It took a supply crash and a total gutting of excess capacity to kick start inflation. Companies were not producing due to Covid, supply chain crimped production and once the excess supply was depleted the imbalance took hold. Now even with steady to lesser demand, the lack of supply meant higher prices and when you add in higher cost of goods, corps raised prices and they were able to raise prices because there was no competition on supply, all corps were in the same boat so all raised prices and now prices are still elevated due to corporate greed knowing the environment is strong for pricing, AND cost of capital is higher so that marginal excess production is not happening like before, corps are not "over producing" so the inventories are not stockpiling and that means prices will not come crashing down anytime soon...and there is your inflation.
The FED could not force inflation when they wanted, they cannot suppress inflation when they want and that is because banks are not borrowers and lenders, that is why Obama/Trump/Biden are merely puppets in the chair unable to really impact inflation or deflation. If the FED wanted to stop inflation the actual course of action is to stop banks for leveraging and gambling in risk markets, require banks to lend and stop their overnight facility, stop paying banks to park cash and put in place some restrictions on what banks can do with capital borrowed from the FED...that means no more treasury leveraging, no more speculating in futures markets and the stock market, return to borrowing and lending. If the FED wants to break inflation they need to lower rates and increase supply make it cheap again and that would balance the curve.
Wall, you can make the argument that the FED had ZIRP for many years after the financial crisis BECAUSE of O'bama's weak domestic policies. High regulation, an enemy of free market capitalism,... you know the drill.
Isn't it interesting that the FED moved to increase rates only "after" O'bama left office,...and enter Trump. That's right, the animal spirits, removing onerous, unnecessary regulations, and adopting pro-growth policies . Thus the FED no longer found it necessary to hold a ZIRP when growth re accelerated... Though you lefties like to harp on Trump, he is no dummy and had the right people in place in his cabinet to foster accelerated growth in the economy.
That is the crux of the matter...
** Domestic policy and FISCAL Policy drives MONETARY Policy. The FED only reacts to how anemic or strong the economy is , factors in anticipated inflation rates, and then calibrates interest rates or makes other extraordinary measures (like buying bonds) as needed....
@wallstreetcappers
Wall, you can make the argument that the FED had ZIRP for many years after the financial crisis BECAUSE of O'bama's weak domestic policies. High regulation, an enemy of free market capitalism,... you know the drill.
Isn't it interesting that the FED moved to increase rates only "after" O'bama left office,...and enter Trump. That's right, the animal spirits, removing onerous, unnecessary regulations, and adopting pro-growth policies . Thus the FED no longer found it necessary to hold a ZIRP when growth re accelerated... Though you lefties like to harp on Trump, he is no dummy and had the right people in place in his cabinet to foster accelerated growth in the economy.
That is the crux of the matter...
** Domestic policy and FISCAL Policy drives MONETARY Policy. The FED only reacts to how anemic or strong the economy is , factors in anticipated inflation rates, and then calibrates interest rates or makes other extraordinary measures (like buying bonds) as needed....
I disagree with domestic policy driving monetary policy. I guess all my babbling above didnt hit home, if domestic policy drove monetary policy then ZIRP never happens, OR it is removed once the bank bailout was gone...it did not until after Trump left. Why is that?
Our GDP did not implode enough to warrant ZIRP, sure we dropped but rebounded decently and were quite stable since, nothing deserving of ZIRP and I said that for years right on here.
The ONLY driver of Monetary policy aside from standard deviation outliers is INFLATION...INFLATION is the directive of the FED, barring an outlier that is what causes the FED to act and it is why they have not dropped yet. It is erroneous, it is old school Volcker and it is flawed. Monetary policy works when banks borrow and lend, borrow and lend. Without the lend part the money multiplier STOPS dead in its tracks and the actions of the FED stop, there is no controlling inflation on the fly there is no stimulus of moderate inflation...our country proves this exact point.
The FED thinks the consumer is a puppet, if you give banks cheap cash then they lend it cheap and citizens borrow to spend borrow to buy a car borrow to be a small biz owner...all sounds punchy sweet but banks are not lending the old school way so the FED fails and they know it.
Government policy as per every single econ textbook, every model is MINIMAL, it is such a teeny section of economic driver it is insignificant and so super slow to engage, it takes so long for Trump or Biden to be head during legislation, enactment, flow through and that is why I have said 100x that the actions of Trump are being seen now, the actions of Obama were seen partly through Trump, Biden's actions will be seen in the next term. It means really zero which party is in office. I know that kills you, it wrecks your psyche but partisan gabbing really means nothing, its so stupid and out to lunch it is not worth discussing. We have so many politicians and dark actions which influence government that no party controls anything, your Biden blaming is shallow and boring.
Monetary policy is the push to fast economic action, its too bad the FED wont eat their words and cut out this 25 years of wasted ZIRP and over raising rates, it isnt working and their model is flawed.
@Rush51
I disagree with domestic policy driving monetary policy. I guess all my babbling above didnt hit home, if domestic policy drove monetary policy then ZIRP never happens, OR it is removed once the bank bailout was gone...it did not until after Trump left. Why is that?
Our GDP did not implode enough to warrant ZIRP, sure we dropped but rebounded decently and were quite stable since, nothing deserving of ZIRP and I said that for years right on here.
The ONLY driver of Monetary policy aside from standard deviation outliers is INFLATION...INFLATION is the directive of the FED, barring an outlier that is what causes the FED to act and it is why they have not dropped yet. It is erroneous, it is old school Volcker and it is flawed. Monetary policy works when banks borrow and lend, borrow and lend. Without the lend part the money multiplier STOPS dead in its tracks and the actions of the FED stop, there is no controlling inflation on the fly there is no stimulus of moderate inflation...our country proves this exact point.
The FED thinks the consumer is a puppet, if you give banks cheap cash then they lend it cheap and citizens borrow to spend borrow to buy a car borrow to be a small biz owner...all sounds punchy sweet but banks are not lending the old school way so the FED fails and they know it.
Government policy as per every single econ textbook, every model is MINIMAL, it is such a teeny section of economic driver it is insignificant and so super slow to engage, it takes so long for Trump or Biden to be head during legislation, enactment, flow through and that is why I have said 100x that the actions of Trump are being seen now, the actions of Obama were seen partly through Trump, Biden's actions will be seen in the next term. It means really zero which party is in office. I know that kills you, it wrecks your psyche but partisan gabbing really means nothing, its so stupid and out to lunch it is not worth discussing. We have so many politicians and dark actions which influence government that no party controls anything, your Biden blaming is shallow and boring.
Monetary policy is the push to fast economic action, its too bad the FED wont eat their words and cut out this 25 years of wasted ZIRP and over raising rates, it isnt working and their model is flawed.
Secretary Blinken on a family attacked by Hamas: "The father's eye was gouged out, the mother's breast cut off, the girl's foot amputated, the boy's fingers cut off before they were executed, and then their executioners sat down and had a meal. That is what this society is dealing with."
The sheer amount of terror during a war is incapacitating & unimaginable for most. It is ever present & the country needs to hear these details of war. Personally, Israel has the manpower, firepower, intelligence & the will to fight this war without the US funding.
Because when this war is over, all the cockroaches will descend on the area with plans to make money in the rebuilding process just like they will in Ukraine.
Let's get back on the thread topic....
Secretary Blinken on a family attacked by Hamas: "The father's eye was gouged out, the mother's breast cut off, the girl's foot amputated, the boy's fingers cut off before they were executed, and then their executioners sat down and had a meal. That is what this society is dealing with."
The sheer amount of terror during a war is incapacitating & unimaginable for most. It is ever present & the country needs to hear these details of war. Personally, Israel has the manpower, firepower, intelligence & the will to fight this war without the US funding.
Because when this war is over, all the cockroaches will descend on the area with plans to make money in the rebuilding process just like they will in Ukraine.
Good points. But I have to add a couple of things and a clarification and I have question.
The sheer amount of terror during a war is incapacitating & unimaginable for most. It is ever present & the country needs to hear these details of war.
This is absolutely true. I have been to maybe 8 or 10 'war' zones, conflict areas and insurgency-type skirmishes. They are overwhelmingly bad and you are very correct about this. I have also seen first-hand some strictly terroristic acts, mostly bombings.
But I would like to clarify your statement about this being during a 'war'. This is more than just a terroristic activity or war. This is mutilation and torture and pure sadistic acts. When you put little kids in ovens and turn the ovens on or amputate body parts while they are alive, etc. -- then that is more than just war. You are right that war is bad enough. But you do not normally see this level of that in 'war' or even 'terror'. This is seen sometimes in some of the conflicts in Africa with the amputations and rapes. Sometimes you will see this in the Cartel, but generally against rival Cartels. With the bombings and things like that, it is mainly intended to just kill and terrorize the living. But to torture folks and maim them, including the elderly and children -- that is not just war and terror but pure evil. Even the genocidal 'wars' are not usually this way. They generally are committed to killing off a whole sect of folks. So, you have all of these things coming together at once that makes this worse than an 8th century Barbarian. Like the man said, the Barbarians fight because they like the violence. They not only kill and maim -- the armies of civilized states do that all of the time -- However, these guys go out of their way to inflict pain, to torture, to rape, and above all to humiliate. They exult in their enemies' suffering. That is why they take pictures of the weeping.
Personally, Israel has the manpower, firepower, intelligence & the will to fight this war without the US funding.
I was not clear on your point here. Were you just making a statement of fact? Or were you saying Israel does not need other's help or others should not necessarily feel obligated to help?
@Midnight1
Good points. But I have to add a couple of things and a clarification and I have question.
The sheer amount of terror during a war is incapacitating & unimaginable for most. It is ever present & the country needs to hear these details of war.
This is absolutely true. I have been to maybe 8 or 10 'war' zones, conflict areas and insurgency-type skirmishes. They are overwhelmingly bad and you are very correct about this. I have also seen first-hand some strictly terroristic acts, mostly bombings.
But I would like to clarify your statement about this being during a 'war'. This is more than just a terroristic activity or war. This is mutilation and torture and pure sadistic acts. When you put little kids in ovens and turn the ovens on or amputate body parts while they are alive, etc. -- then that is more than just war. You are right that war is bad enough. But you do not normally see this level of that in 'war' or even 'terror'. This is seen sometimes in some of the conflicts in Africa with the amputations and rapes. Sometimes you will see this in the Cartel, but generally against rival Cartels. With the bombings and things like that, it is mainly intended to just kill and terrorize the living. But to torture folks and maim them, including the elderly and children -- that is not just war and terror but pure evil. Even the genocidal 'wars' are not usually this way. They generally are committed to killing off a whole sect of folks. So, you have all of these things coming together at once that makes this worse than an 8th century Barbarian. Like the man said, the Barbarians fight because they like the violence. They not only kill and maim -- the armies of civilized states do that all of the time -- However, these guys go out of their way to inflict pain, to torture, to rape, and above all to humiliate. They exult in their enemies' suffering. That is why they take pictures of the weeping.
Personally, Israel has the manpower, firepower, intelligence & the will to fight this war without the US funding.
I was not clear on your point here. Were you just making a statement of fact? Or were you saying Israel does not need other's help or others should not necessarily feel obligated to help?
If Israel is not motivated to try and find peace I agree with no military or financial support, it cant be that they dictate their agenda and we just go along with them because they have people in high places in our country and our economy.
I also find it curious how the depth of reporting on harms done to Israeli citizens, repeated videos of American revolt against the Israeli war agenda and yet all the atrocities being done to the other side are covered by the shot of a bomb destroying a building and reference to some unknown number of casualties and when an citizen is killed by a soldier it is just collateral damage and part of the "war" which really is an aggressive invasion.
It would be better if the US and other countries supported peace and sought a solution with both sides finding common ground. To me this smells like a US agenda to find as many reasons as possible to go after Iran and Syria, any way to link them to this is grounds for the US to take action that we have been chomping at the bit for decades.
If Israel is not motivated to try and find peace I agree with no military or financial support, it cant be that they dictate their agenda and we just go along with them because they have people in high places in our country and our economy.
I also find it curious how the depth of reporting on harms done to Israeli citizens, repeated videos of American revolt against the Israeli war agenda and yet all the atrocities being done to the other side are covered by the shot of a bomb destroying a building and reference to some unknown number of casualties and when an citizen is killed by a soldier it is just collateral damage and part of the "war" which really is an aggressive invasion.
It would be better if the US and other countries supported peace and sought a solution with both sides finding common ground. To me this smells like a US agenda to find as many reasons as possible to go after Iran and Syria, any way to link them to this is grounds for the US to take action that we have been chomping at the bit for decades.
Ukraine broke the terms of their Russian freedom when they constantly entertained making deals with the west and taunted Putin to do something to stop them and as we see it bit them in the rump. Did you think Russia would twiddle thumbs as Ukraine floated NATO ambitions? Why are we shocked when Russia took action when Ukraine breaks the terms given to be granted a satellite status?
Unprovoked invasion of Ukraine was solely initiated by Russia. Under United nations charter, Ukraine is a sovereign country that is acting on its right to self defense against Russian aggression. Russia signed agreements that uphold right of countries to choose their own alliances. Helsinki final act (1975) and NATO-Russia founding act (1997). Russia dismissed all NATO efforts to discuss security concerns to prevent war. But Russians still want to believe Ukraine is part of Russia and spread false narratives in an attempt to justify illegal invasion.
Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:
Ukraine broke the terms of their Russian freedom when they constantly entertained making deals with the west and taunted Putin to do something to stop them and as we see it bit them in the rump. Did you think Russia would twiddle thumbs as Ukraine floated NATO ambitions? Why are we shocked when Russia took action when Ukraine breaks the terms given to be granted a satellite status?
Unprovoked invasion of Ukraine was solely initiated by Russia. Under United nations charter, Ukraine is a sovereign country that is acting on its right to self defense against Russian aggression. Russia signed agreements that uphold right of countries to choose their own alliances. Helsinki final act (1975) and NATO-Russia founding act (1997). Russia dismissed all NATO efforts to discuss security concerns to prevent war. But Russians still want to believe Ukraine is part of Russia and spread false narratives in an attempt to justify illegal invasion.
If Israel is not motivated to try and find peace I agree with no military or financial support, it cant be that they dictate their agenda and we just go along with them because they have people in high places in our country and our economy. I also find it curious how the depth of reporting on harms done to Israeli citizens, repeated videos of American revolt against the Israeli war agenda and yet all the atrocities being done to the other side are covered by the shot of a bomb destroying a building and reference to some unknown number of casualties and when an citizen is killed by a soldier it is just collateral damage and part of the "war" which really is an aggressive invasion. It would be better if the US and other countries supported peace and sought a solution with both sides finding common ground. To me this smells like a US agenda to find as many reasons as possible to go after Iran and Syria, any way to link them to this is grounds for the US to take action that we have been chomping at the bit for decades.
Yes, it would be better but they just tried to start this through a diplomatic process, beginning with UN resolution and guess what? The US voted in opposition of this attempt.
"smells like a US agenda"....lmao yes, it STINKS to high heaven like the NEOCON and liberal warmonger agenda. That is exactly what they want.
Time is a flat circle....
Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:
If Israel is not motivated to try and find peace I agree with no military or financial support, it cant be that they dictate their agenda and we just go along with them because they have people in high places in our country and our economy. I also find it curious how the depth of reporting on harms done to Israeli citizens, repeated videos of American revolt against the Israeli war agenda and yet all the atrocities being done to the other side are covered by the shot of a bomb destroying a building and reference to some unknown number of casualties and when an citizen is killed by a soldier it is just collateral damage and part of the "war" which really is an aggressive invasion. It would be better if the US and other countries supported peace and sought a solution with both sides finding common ground. To me this smells like a US agenda to find as many reasons as possible to go after Iran and Syria, any way to link them to this is grounds for the US to take action that we have been chomping at the bit for decades.
Yes, it would be better but they just tried to start this through a diplomatic process, beginning with UN resolution and guess what? The US voted in opposition of this attempt.
"smells like a US agenda"....lmao yes, it STINKS to high heaven like the NEOCON and liberal warmonger agenda. That is exactly what they want.
I disagree on this and have said so many times. Ukraine was given their opportunity FROM Russia and I believe it was under tight guidelines and restrictions on what they could and could not do. Why would Russia give carte blanche to Ukraine when that would give the west a tight straight shot to attack at ease and short range weapons would do great damage it would also signal to the other states which were also granted similarly that they also could get in bed with the west. It would be the largest blunder that Russia could make and that is why Russia stepped in.
This reminds me of Iraq, the first Iraq where we were fed the idiot excuse that Iraq wanted to invade Kuwait and were going to expand their grip on the region so the US needed to defend the region from Saddam...yeah what a load of crap. It worked though because back then the media was not as fast to uncover lies like they are now, we just relied on CIA Bush and trusted that the agenda was legit and it was not. Iraq took an offensive to Kuwait because they were horizontal drilling into Iraqi oil fields and were warned for a long long time to knock it off. Then the wimpy Saudis got nervous and got us to do their dirty work and "protect" them when Iraq was never going to go to Saudi Arabia, their intention was to protect their national oil field production and stop Kuwait from stealing their oil.
The same is going on now, Ukraine is selling a pack of lies to the world in order to get our cash and weapons. Why would Russia take these actions, what in the history of their arrangement would suggest that Russia has any reason to go in there and be militarily aggressive? It makes no sense, Russia granted their independence in the first place, it just does not work from any logical perspective and I do not trust the doods running the scheme there at all.
@thirdperson
I disagree on this and have said so many times. Ukraine was given their opportunity FROM Russia and I believe it was under tight guidelines and restrictions on what they could and could not do. Why would Russia give carte blanche to Ukraine when that would give the west a tight straight shot to attack at ease and short range weapons would do great damage it would also signal to the other states which were also granted similarly that they also could get in bed with the west. It would be the largest blunder that Russia could make and that is why Russia stepped in.
This reminds me of Iraq, the first Iraq where we were fed the idiot excuse that Iraq wanted to invade Kuwait and were going to expand their grip on the region so the US needed to defend the region from Saddam...yeah what a load of crap. It worked though because back then the media was not as fast to uncover lies like they are now, we just relied on CIA Bush and trusted that the agenda was legit and it was not. Iraq took an offensive to Kuwait because they were horizontal drilling into Iraqi oil fields and were warned for a long long time to knock it off. Then the wimpy Saudis got nervous and got us to do their dirty work and "protect" them when Iraq was never going to go to Saudi Arabia, their intention was to protect their national oil field production and stop Kuwait from stealing their oil.
The same is going on now, Ukraine is selling a pack of lies to the world in order to get our cash and weapons. Why would Russia take these actions, what in the history of their arrangement would suggest that Russia has any reason to go in there and be militarily aggressive? It makes no sense, Russia granted their independence in the first place, it just does not work from any logical perspective and I do not trust the doods running the scheme there at all.
@thirdperson I disagree on this and have said so many times. Ukraine was given their opportunity FROM Russia and I believe it was under tight guidelines and restrictions on what they could and could not do. Why would Russia give carte blanche to Ukraine when that would give the west a tight straight shot to attack at ease and short range weapons would do great damage it would also signal to the other states which were also granted similarly that they also could get in bed with the west. It would be the largest blunder that Russia could make and that is why Russia stepped in. This reminds me of Iraq, the first Iraq where we were fed the idiot excuse that Iraq wanted to invade Kuwait and were going to expand their grip on the region so the US needed to defend the region from Saddam...yeah what a load of crap. It worked though because back then the media was not as fast to uncover lies like they are now, we just relied on CIA Bush and trusted that the agenda was legit and it was not. Iraq took an offensive to Kuwait because they were horizontal drilling into Iraqi oil fields and were warned for a long long time to knock it off. Then the wimpy Saudis got nervous and got us to do their dirty work and "protect" them when Iraq was never going to go to Saudi Arabia, their intention was to protect their national oil field production and stop Kuwait from stealing their oil. The same is going on now, Ukraine is selling a pack of lies to the world in order to get our cash and weapons. Why would Russia take these actions, what in the history of their arrangement would suggest that Russia has any reason to go in there and be militarily aggressive? It makes no sense, Russia granted their independence in the first place, it just does not work from any logical perspective and I do not trust the doods running the scheme there at all.
Wallstreet on FIRE today.... spitting those TRUTHS that are so uncomfortable for some of you to hear and comprehend.... BOOM goes the reality bomb
Time is a flat circle....
Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:
@thirdperson I disagree on this and have said so many times. Ukraine was given their opportunity FROM Russia and I believe it was under tight guidelines and restrictions on what they could and could not do. Why would Russia give carte blanche to Ukraine when that would give the west a tight straight shot to attack at ease and short range weapons would do great damage it would also signal to the other states which were also granted similarly that they also could get in bed with the west. It would be the largest blunder that Russia could make and that is why Russia stepped in. This reminds me of Iraq, the first Iraq where we were fed the idiot excuse that Iraq wanted to invade Kuwait and were going to expand their grip on the region so the US needed to defend the region from Saddam...yeah what a load of crap. It worked though because back then the media was not as fast to uncover lies like they are now, we just relied on CIA Bush and trusted that the agenda was legit and it was not. Iraq took an offensive to Kuwait because they were horizontal drilling into Iraqi oil fields and were warned for a long long time to knock it off. Then the wimpy Saudis got nervous and got us to do their dirty work and "protect" them when Iraq was never going to go to Saudi Arabia, their intention was to protect their national oil field production and stop Kuwait from stealing their oil. The same is going on now, Ukraine is selling a pack of lies to the world in order to get our cash and weapons. Why would Russia take these actions, what in the history of their arrangement would suggest that Russia has any reason to go in there and be militarily aggressive? It makes no sense, Russia granted their independence in the first place, it just does not work from any logical perspective and I do not trust the doods running the scheme there at all.
Wallstreet on FIRE today.... spitting those TRUTHS that are so uncomfortable for some of you to hear and comprehend.... BOOM goes the reality bomb
Well said comparison with Afrika and the Cartels. More so obviously in this instance a this is a thousand year old blood feud between two peoples, that is the history and reason for the barbaric nature and disregard for what is considered "modern rules of warfare" we are witnessing.
The West has had / is having its' troubles comprehending this.
Another ethnic conflict is on the horizon as well in the Balkans that is not being yet talked enough about.... Serbia / Kosovo.... next powder keg to blow.
Time is a flat circle....
@Raiders22
Well said comparison with Afrika and the Cartels. More so obviously in this instance a this is a thousand year old blood feud between two peoples, that is the history and reason for the barbaric nature and disregard for what is considered "modern rules of warfare" we are witnessing.
The West has had / is having its' troubles comprehending this.
Another ethnic conflict is on the horizon as well in the Balkans that is not being yet talked enough about.... Serbia / Kosovo.... next powder keg to blow.
I dont see that they were attacked, I see that they are in a 1000 year fight with all their neighbors and this event is one in a long long series of events that both sides bring on the other. The narrative is that this is one sided and that Hamas needs to be wiped off the planet, well that is the Israeli narrative but it is not one I agree with.
Get rid of all the extremists, that includes the Israeli ones too and focus on peace and co-existence but that has never been possible there...both sides hate each other and that means our agenda as a western party should be peace and not war not invasion not conflict. I have not seen this to be the case, Israel is doing what they want and there is never a place for peace as a path to them and that is why I do not fall for their narrative, we have seen this saga for decades and centuries this is just a small piece in that timeline and we will not be making things better by going along with what Israel wants.
@joe pockets
I dont see that they were attacked, I see that they are in a 1000 year fight with all their neighbors and this event is one in a long long series of events that both sides bring on the other. The narrative is that this is one sided and that Hamas needs to be wiped off the planet, well that is the Israeli narrative but it is not one I agree with.
Get rid of all the extremists, that includes the Israeli ones too and focus on peace and co-existence but that has never been possible there...both sides hate each other and that means our agenda as a western party should be peace and not war not invasion not conflict. I have not seen this to be the case, Israel is doing what they want and there is never a place for peace as a path to them and that is why I do not fall for their narrative, we have seen this saga for decades and centuries this is just a small piece in that timeline and we will not be making things better by going along with what Israel wants.
For Israel’s sake, I hope they avoid the US’ error following 9/11 of squandering international support after having been attacked.
When and how did the US error following 9/11 ?? "Squandering international support" as you put it? Was the international community NOT supportive of US military action in Afghanistan following 9/11 ??
Time is a flat circle....
@joe pockets
For Israel’s sake, I hope they avoid the US’ error following 9/11 of squandering international support after having been attacked.
When and how did the US error following 9/11 ?? "Squandering international support" as you put it? Was the international community NOT supportive of US military action in Afghanistan following 9/11 ??
Over 100 were killed in Iran when bombs exploded at a ceremony honoring the Iranian general killed in a drone attack four years ago. The Iranians are pointing the finger at America and want revenge! Basically they are saying this is all Joe Biden's fault, like the MAGAs scream daily in our country about almost everything. Obviously this will become a major source of concern in the region and I think hostilities are about to expand to open warfare within a short time. That would shake the markets worldwide and most likely cause a rise in oil prices everywhere. Our pump prices would rise again, which is bad enough. Of course Biden would be blamed for all of it. But the greater threat beside the instability is a real threat that US boots on the ground may be forced
Breaking news 11:38 et
ISIS is claiming responsibility!
Quote Originally Posted by Zeus4par:
Over 100 were killed in Iran when bombs exploded at a ceremony honoring the Iranian general killed in a drone attack four years ago. The Iranians are pointing the finger at America and want revenge! Basically they are saying this is all Joe Biden's fault, like the MAGAs scream daily in our country about almost everything. Obviously this will become a major source of concern in the region and I think hostilities are about to expand to open warfare within a short time. That would shake the markets worldwide and most likely cause a rise in oil prices everywhere. Our pump prices would rise again, which is bad enough. Of course Biden would be blamed for all of it. But the greater threat beside the instability is a real threat that US boots on the ground may be forced
Quote Originally Posted by Zeus4par: Over 100 were killed in Iran when bombs exploded at a ceremony honoring the Iranian general killed in a drone attack four years ago. The Iranians are pointing the finger at America and want revenge! Basically they are saying this is all Joe Biden's fault, like the MAGAs scream daily in our country about almost everything. Obviously this will become a major source of concern in the region and I think hostilities are about to expand to open warfare within a short time. That would shake the markets worldwide and most likely cause a rise in oil prices everywhere. Our pump prices would rise again, which is bad enough. Of course Biden would be blamed for all of it. But the greater threat beside the instability is a real threat that US boots on the ground may be forced
Breaking news 11:38 et ISIS is claiming responsibility!
so now the magas on social media that were blaming joe biden r doing what now ?
"I'm the MOST HONEST human being that GOD EVER created!" - Donald "the felon" Trump
Quote Originally Posted by Zeus4par:
Quote Originally Posted by Zeus4par: Over 100 were killed in Iran when bombs exploded at a ceremony honoring the Iranian general killed in a drone attack four years ago. The Iranians are pointing the finger at America and want revenge! Basically they are saying this is all Joe Biden's fault, like the MAGAs scream daily in our country about almost everything. Obviously this will become a major source of concern in the region and I think hostilities are about to expand to open warfare within a short time. That would shake the markets worldwide and most likely cause a rise in oil prices everywhere. Our pump prices would rise again, which is bad enough. Of course Biden would be blamed for all of it. But the greater threat beside the instability is a real threat that US boots on the ground may be forced
Breaking news 11:38 et ISIS is claiming responsibility!
so now the magas on social media that were blaming joe biden r doing what now ?
"POTUS is violating Article I of the Constitution by carrying out airstrikes in Yemen without congressional approval. The American people are tired of endless war."
Ironic this Congressperson is citing the US Constitution when she repeatedly has made a habit to previously ignore it....
Time is a flat circle....
"POTUS is violating Article I of the Constitution by carrying out airstrikes in Yemen without congressional approval. The American people are tired of endless war."
The pro-Iranian terrorist group, Hezbollah, based in Lebanon, attacked Israel. Mid-East war threatens to expand.
Hezbollah says it launched dozens of rockets toward Israel in response to strikes in Lebanon
CNN -
Hezbollah said it has launched "dozens of rockets" toward northern Israel on Thursday in response to Israeli strikes that killed two paramedics in Lebanon.
The Iran-backed group — which has one of the most powerful paramilitary forces in the Middle East — said its strikes on the Israeli town of Kiryat Shmona, near the Lebanese border, were also in support of the "steadfast Palestinian people in the Gaza Strip."
Quote Originally Posted by fubah2:
The pro-Iranian terrorist group, Hezbollah, based in Lebanon, attacked Israel. Mid-East war threatens to expand.
Hezbollah says it launched dozens of rockets toward Israel in response to strikes in Lebanon
CNN -
Hezbollah said it has launched "dozens of rockets" toward northern Israel on Thursday in response to Israeli strikes that killed two paramedics in Lebanon.
The Iran-backed group — which has one of the most powerful paramilitary forces in the Middle East — said its strikes on the Israeli town of Kiryat Shmona, near the Lebanese border, were also in support of the "steadfast Palestinian people in the Gaza Strip."
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