But it is more complex than the MW issue when you include all of that.
For example, we live in a culture now that wants what we want right now and cannot wait. We also want to keep up with others or even outdo them.
Years ago folks didn't do this. They waited until they could afford things to buy them. They didn't live above their means and they planned for retirement now. Our whole country lives on debt unnecessarily. If they lived within their means they would do much better.
MW will have a lagging effect is all. Simply hurts the ones that get axed because of it when they have no skill to do anything else. And eventually leads to raises all over and then MW is lower once again than it should be.
We have been through many downturns in the economy. People are just way less prepared now. The economy cannot be in a constant state of boom all of the time.
Offshoring is not the issue is once was now that it had turned around. But it still need to be addressed.
I'm already upset with decisions we made 20 years ago now.
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WSC. I also agree with most of it.
But it is more complex than the MW issue when you include all of that.
For example, we live in a culture now that wants what we want right now and cannot wait. We also want to keep up with others or even outdo them.
Years ago folks didn't do this. They waited until they could afford things to buy them. They didn't live above their means and they planned for retirement now. Our whole country lives on debt unnecessarily. If they lived within their means they would do much better.
MW will have a lagging effect is all. Simply hurts the ones that get axed because of it when they have no skill to do anything else. And eventually leads to raises all over and then MW is lower once again than it should be.
We have been through many downturns in the economy. People are just way less prepared now. The economy cannot be in a constant state of boom all of the time.
Offshoring is not the issue is once was now that it had turned around. But it still need to be addressed.
I'm already upset with decisions we made 20 years ago now.
My point is why are we focusing on the lowest wages when that isnt the problem..
Why the angst about MW when who cares what the MW is, we should try our hardest to focus on the gap and not what the lowest make in wages.
I have some friends that work for a big firm down here that does a ton of HB visas and so I know a great deal about the why and how of it, also know MANY people on these and also who got their GC's..
The reason for the visas in the IT world is two fold...one that China is a player in areas of growth for many IT companies, so they are hiring Chinese IT folk and the rationale is they communicate to that market The other reason is India workers...and many IT firms have outsourced labor to the north and south India IT centers, so the HB1 visas get approved because the workers here are communicating with the outsourced staff and a normal US IT worker cannot communicate in Hindi or Telugu where most of the IT centers are focused in India..so the US worker cannot compete with the lower wages and the language barriers that US companies have created to protect their profits.
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My point is why are we focusing on the lowest wages when that isnt the problem..
Why the angst about MW when who cares what the MW is, we should try our hardest to focus on the gap and not what the lowest make in wages.
I have some friends that work for a big firm down here that does a ton of HB visas and so I know a great deal about the why and how of it, also know MANY people on these and also who got their GC's..
The reason for the visas in the IT world is two fold...one that China is a player in areas of growth for many IT companies, so they are hiring Chinese IT folk and the rationale is they communicate to that market The other reason is India workers...and many IT firms have outsourced labor to the north and south India IT centers, so the HB1 visas get approved because the workers here are communicating with the outsourced staff and a normal US IT worker cannot communicate in Hindi or Telugu where most of the IT centers are focused in India..so the US worker cannot compete with the lower wages and the language barriers that US companies have created to protect their profits.
So what you're saying wall is that we haven't prepared ourselves very well to flourish in a global economy?
How many normal IT US citizens can communicate in Chinese, Telugu or Hindi or India languages?
Companies outsource to lower cost centers like China and India and in the process have created a market for lower cost HB visa employees.
Companies pay HB visa employees lower rates than US employees (I know this for a verifiable FACT) so they benefit bringing over foreign workers...they pay them less and also outsource operations to those areas and benefit from the MUCH lower labor costs in the process.
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Quote Originally Posted by bowlslit:
So what you're saying wall is that we haven't prepared ourselves very well to flourish in a global economy?
How many normal IT US citizens can communicate in Chinese, Telugu or Hindi or India languages?
Companies outsource to lower cost centers like China and India and in the process have created a market for lower cost HB visa employees.
Companies pay HB visa employees lower rates than US employees (I know this for a verifiable FACT) so they benefit bringing over foreign workers...they pay them less and also outsource operations to those areas and benefit from the MUCH lower labor costs in the process.
We need to then focus on teaching our school students how to speak Chinese and Hindi..along with computer skills ..
...........
You are looking at only part of the equation..
IT firms first outsourced to save money and have divisions in those countries...this was done to save money.
THEN they figured out (I know this for yet another FACT) that there is a difference between IT experience and skills in those areas and here..the quality of workers is higher here and their experience is better, so they do better work...SO these same IT firms bring people in on HB visas, they have I think it is 8 years on these visas before the company has to commit to paying for GC status...during those years they are paid less than market wages, and they get EXPERIENCE in the process..they get acclimated to how we do business here and they are also able to communicate and manage the low cost IT divisions in the other countries.
Then once the HB extensions are exhausted the company will give GC clearance and test the waters for getting acceptance. The application for GC hedges on that employees importance to the company and the fact that said company cannot hire a US worker that can fluently communicate with the low cost IT groups in another country...it is an intentional cost savings measure that MANY IT firms use, especially ones that are doing client based contract IT work.
The issue isnt knowing the language, it is these companies are intentionally using these measures to edge out the US worker..on BOTH ends of the equation.
I know this because I know MANY MANY HB/GC people in the area I live..and I know the processes and the whys and how it all works.
The only thing that will change this is to cut off the IT HB visas and GC visas, or tax corporations commensurate for their offshoring and going around the US worker...make the decision NOT a cost savings benefit for that corporation, protect our workers and dont let these firms take advantage of our strengths and also avoid taxation by offshoring.
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Quote Originally Posted by SarasotaSlim:
We need to then focus on teaching our school students how to speak Chinese and Hindi..along with computer skills ..
...........
You are looking at only part of the equation..
IT firms first outsourced to save money and have divisions in those countries...this was done to save money.
THEN they figured out (I know this for yet another FACT) that there is a difference between IT experience and skills in those areas and here..the quality of workers is higher here and their experience is better, so they do better work...SO these same IT firms bring people in on HB visas, they have I think it is 8 years on these visas before the company has to commit to paying for GC status...during those years they are paid less than market wages, and they get EXPERIENCE in the process..they get acclimated to how we do business here and they are also able to communicate and manage the low cost IT divisions in the other countries.
Then once the HB extensions are exhausted the company will give GC clearance and test the waters for getting acceptance. The application for GC hedges on that employees importance to the company and the fact that said company cannot hire a US worker that can fluently communicate with the low cost IT groups in another country...it is an intentional cost savings measure that MANY IT firms use, especially ones that are doing client based contract IT work.
The issue isnt knowing the language, it is these companies are intentionally using these measures to edge out the US worker..on BOTH ends of the equation.
I know this because I know MANY MANY HB/GC people in the area I live..and I know the processes and the whys and how it all works.
The only thing that will change this is to cut off the IT HB visas and GC visas, or tax corporations commensurate for their offshoring and going around the US worker...make the decision NOT a cost savings benefit for that corporation, protect our workers and dont let these firms take advantage of our strengths and also avoid taxation by offshoring.
Let me also add that the HB employee is not to blame here at all..
India specifically has turned into a massive IT center, especially in two areas in the country..they are teaching locals there what is needed to get these IT jobs, this is an OUT for the low standard of living many have..second is the medical field, same goes there..people get a university degree and come here under student visa status to finish their doctor degree and residency, then they can earn a great ammt more here vs in India for example.
The worker sacrifices a great deal coming here..they are paid low wages, they are on a constant 2 yr extension stress, they have limitations to what future they will have, what loans they can have, the things they buy because if they are rejected on their extension they are shipped out of the country in like a week time and have to immediately drop everything. That happened to a friend of mine, the company messed up the extension paperwork and he and his family were gone for two months while the company fixed the issue. The company holds these people hostage in many sense of the word..they know that the employee will work for less than average wages, they are dependant on the company to let them stay in this country...it really is a bad situation.
Many of these people work US hours, then go home and work until 2-3 AM communicating with their co-workers in India or China and managing operations there...then get a few hours of sleep and back at it here. It is very tough seeing these hard working nice people get abused as they are...but really its exactly how it happens over and over and over..
And if the worker does not do as they are told then the company can send them back at any time...and that also happens.
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Let me also add that the HB employee is not to blame here at all..
India specifically has turned into a massive IT center, especially in two areas in the country..they are teaching locals there what is needed to get these IT jobs, this is an OUT for the low standard of living many have..second is the medical field, same goes there..people get a university degree and come here under student visa status to finish their doctor degree and residency, then they can earn a great ammt more here vs in India for example.
The worker sacrifices a great deal coming here..they are paid low wages, they are on a constant 2 yr extension stress, they have limitations to what future they will have, what loans they can have, the things they buy because if they are rejected on their extension they are shipped out of the country in like a week time and have to immediately drop everything. That happened to a friend of mine, the company messed up the extension paperwork and he and his family were gone for two months while the company fixed the issue. The company holds these people hostage in many sense of the word..they know that the employee will work for less than average wages, they are dependant on the company to let them stay in this country...it really is a bad situation.
Many of these people work US hours, then go home and work until 2-3 AM communicating with their co-workers in India or China and managing operations there...then get a few hours of sleep and back at it here. It is very tough seeing these hard working nice people get abused as they are...but really its exactly how it happens over and over and over..
And if the worker does not do as they are told then the company can send them back at any time...and that also happens.
Very informative,,,but,, fi we cut off H-1B visas and GC visas, or tax corporations for offshoring ...can American corporations find enough qualified American workers to take their place, at this time ..even at a higher rate of pay ?
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Very informative,,,but,, fi we cut off H-1B visas and GC visas, or tax corporations for offshoring ...can American corporations find enough qualified American workers to take their place, at this time ..even at a higher rate of pay ?
Very informative,,,but,, fi we cut off H-1B visas and GC visas, or tax corporations for offshoring ...can American corporations find enough qualified American workers to take their place, at this time ..even at a higher rate of pay ?
They now exist..its why these corps bring foreign workers here, not vice versa..and its why their main operations are here.
In these "developing" IT countries the style of instruction is like how this country was 30 yrs ago...BOOK study..study study study...its how they teach there...and the class sizes are huge because so many people want OUT of their economic condition so most are flocking to IT and medical. In fact in India at a middle school grade they separate most kids into two categories, either IT or medical..and start that education path early.
The style of learning in the US is unlike anywhere, the way we learn to collaborate, innovate, create, work in groups and are able to client face, do presentations..all of that is not taught in these countries. So for sure we have the skills here.
What we dont have here is a COST advantage for corporations. Offshoring happened to cut costs period..no other reason. I have a friend who is in upper level management at one of the larger firms and we have discussed quite a bit about the what and whys and the differences between there and here. Firms open offices in these tech areas of India specifically and set up shop there and the workers will do much of the grunt work, the hard programming work for HALF or less of what an HB employee here will and the rate of an HB vs a US employee I think is about 60-70%...so if a US employee would make 100k, an HB makes 60-65k for the same position.
There are plenty of US workers to do the job, the issue is profits for these corporations only...margins and profits. Skill sets actually are worse for foreign workers, they lack the current skills needed in a global work environment..the high performers come here and are taught here..and they in return gain access to a higher standard of living and higher wage rate.
Many will work as IT slaves for 6-8 yrs, once they get their GC they jump ship to another firm and get a 30% pay raise because they are no longer chained to the IT firm that brought them here under those low wages and high hour requirements.
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Quote Originally Posted by SarasotaSlim:
Very informative,,,but,, fi we cut off H-1B visas and GC visas, or tax corporations for offshoring ...can American corporations find enough qualified American workers to take their place, at this time ..even at a higher rate of pay ?
They now exist..its why these corps bring foreign workers here, not vice versa..and its why their main operations are here.
In these "developing" IT countries the style of instruction is like how this country was 30 yrs ago...BOOK study..study study study...its how they teach there...and the class sizes are huge because so many people want OUT of their economic condition so most are flocking to IT and medical. In fact in India at a middle school grade they separate most kids into two categories, either IT or medical..and start that education path early.
The style of learning in the US is unlike anywhere, the way we learn to collaborate, innovate, create, work in groups and are able to client face, do presentations..all of that is not taught in these countries. So for sure we have the skills here.
What we dont have here is a COST advantage for corporations. Offshoring happened to cut costs period..no other reason. I have a friend who is in upper level management at one of the larger firms and we have discussed quite a bit about the what and whys and the differences between there and here. Firms open offices in these tech areas of India specifically and set up shop there and the workers will do much of the grunt work, the hard programming work for HALF or less of what an HB employee here will and the rate of an HB vs a US employee I think is about 60-70%...so if a US employee would make 100k, an HB makes 60-65k for the same position.
There are plenty of US workers to do the job, the issue is profits for these corporations only...margins and profits. Skill sets actually are worse for foreign workers, they lack the current skills needed in a global work environment..the high performers come here and are taught here..and they in return gain access to a higher standard of living and higher wage rate.
Many will work as IT slaves for 6-8 yrs, once they get their GC they jump ship to another firm and get a 30% pay raise because they are no longer chained to the IT firm that brought them here under those low wages and high hour requirements.
Many will work as IT slaves for 6-8 yrs, once they get their GC they jump ship to another firm and get a 30% pay raise because they are no longer chained to the IT firm that brought them here under those low wages and high hour requirements.
Yep amazing the MW workers can't figure out how to do this sort of jumping up to advance. Just simply two or three different issues. But to simply ignore the MW attempt and say there are more pressing things to fix the economy still doesn't address why so many folks stay making low wages when, as you point out, they can get a skill and advance. The theory of bringing the wages closer together in middle to supposedly fix everything may not be the answer. You are inflating the bottom on a false notion and trying to discourage growth at the top. I just don't think that is great for the economy to grow.
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Many will work as IT slaves for 6-8 yrs, once they get their GC they jump ship to another firm and get a 30% pay raise because they are no longer chained to the IT firm that brought them here under those low wages and high hour requirements.
Yep amazing the MW workers can't figure out how to do this sort of jumping up to advance. Just simply two or three different issues. But to simply ignore the MW attempt and say there are more pressing things to fix the economy still doesn't address why so many folks stay making low wages when, as you point out, they can get a skill and advance. The theory of bringing the wages closer together in middle to supposedly fix everything may not be the answer. You are inflating the bottom on a false notion and trying to discourage growth at the top. I just don't think that is great for the economy to grow.
When you write replies like this it makes me wonder if you really think before you respond. It seems poorly thought out and very antagonistic with the goal of being combative only.
Read what you wrote for the last 7-8 lines and think through what you said...it goes completely against current economic status, it is exactly what we have done for the last several decades and over the last 6-7 yrs it has come home to roost.
What real growth have we gained doing exactly the opposite of what you wrote? This current economic environment is exactly the reverse, all gains are on the TOP and the chasm between the bottom and middle is gaping wide, the middle as you are trying to criticize is evaporating...so how much real growth have we experienced doing EXACTLY what you are suggesting?
The wealthy have never been wealthier, the top have never experienced a greater proportion of economic wealth..has this equated to any growth to the economy? Even with FED funds rate at zero and the top gaining all the bounty, our growth is 2% and the real growth to the non-elite is negative..
So how can you seriously write what you did unless you really do not get it..or what I think is you are AGAIN trying to pick a fight, why else would you write such ridiculous words like that?
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When you write replies like this it makes me wonder if you really think before you respond. It seems poorly thought out and very antagonistic with the goal of being combative only.
Read what you wrote for the last 7-8 lines and think through what you said...it goes completely against current economic status, it is exactly what we have done for the last several decades and over the last 6-7 yrs it has come home to roost.
What real growth have we gained doing exactly the opposite of what you wrote? This current economic environment is exactly the reverse, all gains are on the TOP and the chasm between the bottom and middle is gaping wide, the middle as you are trying to criticize is evaporating...so how much real growth have we experienced doing EXACTLY what you are suggesting?
The wealthy have never been wealthier, the top have never experienced a greater proportion of economic wealth..has this equated to any growth to the economy? Even with FED funds rate at zero and the top gaining all the bounty, our growth is 2% and the real growth to the non-elite is negative..
So how can you seriously write what you did unless you really do not get it..or what I think is you are AGAIN trying to pick a fight, why else would you write such ridiculous words like that?
Please don't chastise me dl because I am cheering on Wall. I know this upsets you when certain people do it, such as myself. Ya gotta admit though, he is on fire and killin it. Singing a tune I love to hear. Been sayin a lot of the same myself.
Kinda like watching Kershaw throw a no hitter. Batters are just standin there watching strikes go by.
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Wallstreetcappers
Please don't chastise me dl because I am cheering on Wall. I know this upsets you when certain people do it, such as myself. Ya gotta admit though, he is on fire and killin it. Singing a tune I love to hear. Been sayin a lot of the same myself.
Kinda like watching Kershaw throw a no hitter. Batters are just standin there watching strikes go by.
[Quote: Originally Posted bybettingforfun]WallstreetcappersPlease don't chastise me dl because I am cheering on Wall. I know this upsets you when certain people do it, such as myself. Ya gotta admit though, he is on fire and killin it. Singing a tune I love to hear. Been sayin a lot of the same myself.Kinda like watching Kershaw throw a no hitter. Batters are just standin there watching strikes go by.[/Quote]
Huh? Why would it bother me?
If anything you see bowslit is no where to be found. He scurried off with his tail between his legs stewing somewhere because a real discussion broke out on his prescribed talking point.
It's funny you even mention me when I have absolutely no connection to wallstreet or even the discussion in this thread.
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[Quote: Originally Posted bybettingforfun]WallstreetcappersPlease don't chastise me dl because I am cheering on Wall. I know this upsets you when certain people do it, such as myself. Ya gotta admit though, he is on fire and killin it. Singing a tune I love to hear. Been sayin a lot of the same myself.Kinda like watching Kershaw throw a no hitter. Batters are just standin there watching strikes go by.[/Quote]
Huh? Why would it bother me?
If anything you see bowslit is no where to be found. He scurried off with his tail between his legs stewing somewhere because a real discussion broke out on his prescribed talking point.
It's funny you even mention me when I have absolutely no connection to wallstreet or even the discussion in this thread.
Nah. Simply saying that MW is what the thread is about. Not about outsourcing---which has turned around. Or class separation.
It is still a Liberal trick to try the class separating thing.
If the issue is trying to narrow the gap why not try to raise the bottom legitimately instead of falsely rewarding them and trying to make it look like something is achieved. It doesn't work. You still have uneducated, unskilled, and a largely lazier sector that was rewarded, for what?
Then trying to curtail the elite producers. Some may be a legitimate concern with outsourcing and whatnot. But times simply change. We don't farm anymore. We by and large have turned service. If people at the top adapt and change why attempt to stop them as long as it is legit practice? Throwing all of these issues into this and then stating that raising MW because of all of this just has no economic basis. In fact, there are pockets to the contrary.
So if you are confused by the last part about MW bettering themselves or us giving them the tools to better themselves instead of propping them up and treating them as legit careers --- then you are simply missing the entire point of this thread. And throwing all of the muddling in about the economy and gaps and middle class disappearing --- just makes it look like you are trying to sound as if you have an economics degree or background to back it up and people should take your word for it. I would rather someone just say they feel sorry for MW folks and not try to justify it with things that have no bearing on it. Bottom line is folks should not try to live on MW. And if they do they should be very, very frugal. No amount of shuffling numbers can change a person's ambition or work ethic. It simply doesn't work that way.
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Nah. Simply saying that MW is what the thread is about. Not about outsourcing---which has turned around. Or class separation.
It is still a Liberal trick to try the class separating thing.
If the issue is trying to narrow the gap why not try to raise the bottom legitimately instead of falsely rewarding them and trying to make it look like something is achieved. It doesn't work. You still have uneducated, unskilled, and a largely lazier sector that was rewarded, for what?
Then trying to curtail the elite producers. Some may be a legitimate concern with outsourcing and whatnot. But times simply change. We don't farm anymore. We by and large have turned service. If people at the top adapt and change why attempt to stop them as long as it is legit practice? Throwing all of these issues into this and then stating that raising MW because of all of this just has no economic basis. In fact, there are pockets to the contrary.
So if you are confused by the last part about MW bettering themselves or us giving them the tools to better themselves instead of propping them up and treating them as legit careers --- then you are simply missing the entire point of this thread. And throwing all of the muddling in about the economy and gaps and middle class disappearing --- just makes it look like you are trying to sound as if you have an economics degree or background to back it up and people should take your word for it. I would rather someone just say they feel sorry for MW folks and not try to justify it with things that have no bearing on it. Bottom line is folks should not try to live on MW. And if they do they should be very, very frugal. No amount of shuffling numbers can change a person's ambition or work ethic. It simply doesn't work that way.
Being antagonistic would be telling someone they don't think before responding. Instead of simply addresses and countering folk's points that you supposedly disagree with or do not understand. Preferably with quotes or studies from experts. As has been done with the other side in the MW part of this thread.
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Being antagonistic would be telling someone they don't think before responding. Instead of simply addresses and countering folk's points that you supposedly disagree with or do not understand. Preferably with quotes or studies from experts. As has been done with the other side in the MW part of this thread.
I've always viewed generic,across the board raises like birthday parties- Neither are based on merit, but rather, based on simply existing..... I suppose you could even add gift giving in late December to that....
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I've always viewed generic,across the board raises like birthday parties- Neither are based on merit, but rather, based on simply existing..... I suppose you could even add gift giving in late December to that....
The minimum wage arguments are such a perfect example of Democratic pandering. I cannot imagine that even the most ardent liberals are supportive of the notion of a $15 wage unless they are looking for rampant inflation and the disappearance of small business.
A $15 wage (without addressing tariffs or import taxes) will certainly result in the absolute monopoly by companies like Walmart with the disappearance of American run small businesses along with the accompanying increase in the costs of necessities.
Obviously, lesser increases aren't as damning but the correlative result offers workers much less of a realistic wage without a corresponding reform in taxes.
It is the classic example of the mantra that permeates within those critical of the "policies you can't pay for" actions of the Dems.
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The minimum wage arguments are such a perfect example of Democratic pandering. I cannot imagine that even the most ardent liberals are supportive of the notion of a $15 wage unless they are looking for rampant inflation and the disappearance of small business.
A $15 wage (without addressing tariffs or import taxes) will certainly result in the absolute monopoly by companies like Walmart with the disappearance of American run small businesses along with the accompanying increase in the costs of necessities.
Obviously, lesser increases aren't as damning but the correlative result offers workers much less of a realistic wage without a corresponding reform in taxes.
It is the classic example of the mantra that permeates within those critical of the "policies you can't pay for" actions of the Dems.
In 2014, 75 economists signed a letter from Economic Policy Institute to Congress endorsing a small increase of federal minimum wage. The belief that raising minimum wage damage employment is largely unfounded opinion based on old flawed research.
States that have increased their minimum above federal rate have experienced no adverse effects in their job market. According to Center for Economic Policy Research, higher minimum wage lowers employee turnover, and increase consumer spending to boost economy.
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In 2014, 75 economists signed a letter from Economic Policy Institute to Congress endorsing a small increase of federal minimum wage. The belief that raising minimum wage damage employment is largely unfounded opinion based on old flawed research.
States that have increased their minimum above federal rate have experienced no adverse effects in their job market. According to Center for Economic Policy Research, higher minimum wage lowers employee turnover, and increase consumer spending to boost economy.
If anything you see bowslit is no where to be found. He scurried off with his tail between his legs stewing somewhere because a real discussion broke out on his prescribed talking point.
It's funny you even mention me when I have absolutely no connection to wallstreet or even the discussion in this thread.
If anything you see bowslit is no where to be found. He scurried off with his tail between his legs stewing somewhere because a real discussion broke out on his prescribed talking point.
It's funny you even mention me when I have absolutely no connection to wallstreet or even the discussion in this thread.
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