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"National Minimum wage increase is trouble"

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Posted: #26
Quote Originally Posted by Raiders22:

That's actually part of the problem.  Nobody is begrudging someone, who is worth it, getting more.  But to give someone more just because they do not have the ambition or skill to do anything but minimum wage jobs is not the correct thing to do. Yes,  there are people also that will actually do the minimu wage jobs better---and they will do it for less also!  Sure, someone may do a higher skilled job better.  But eventually supply and demand will dictate that person will get paid more.  Unless, as you imply, money doesn't mean that much to them and they 'settle' or are okay with getting less than they deserve.

You mixed in a couple of things there and assumed a couple of things that are not always true to imply the MW should be raised.  But it becomes a cycle then.    

How do you know who working these jobs are good hard working people and who is not? How many times has the wage been increased in the last 25 years and has it spelled doom for for Americas industrial output.One thing is certain the rich will get richer regardless of a buck here & there till it gets to 15. And for some one who is not begrudging another one a buck you sure sound like it. .If it was left up to big business you would have people here working for pennies as they do in other countries.
 
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Posted: #27
Quote Originally Posted by bowlslit[Quote: Originally Posted by dl36:

What a waste of a post.What exactly do you mean with your first sentence?Ironic that you make a waste of a post to say that. Lol!There was a typo.I meant to say it's funny to see how prescribed talking points try to be defended when faced with reality.It's also funny that the insults, name calling and trying to call me a liberal pop up.Seems like a meltdown is starting rather than addressing my statements
I did address your stupid statement. It was stupid and had no value. Calling the issue a talking point shows how dumb people really are.Thats not an insult, it's the reality you spoke of earlier.


Minimum wage is a talking point in current rhetoric.

It's weird that you are launching insults because you are meltdown again. The usual suspects see you folding and are rushing in to try to help you.

I don't get why my statement is stupid. I mean did you even understand what I said? As you can see I'm all clarification of you are not grasping what I said.

Can you tell me what my position on minimum wage even is?

But of course I'm asking you a simple question which typically results in more name calling, insults, angry denial and cut-and-run from giving and answer.

Typical bowslit. Lol!

It's pretty obvious you're in need of some bail outs at this point in your tailspin. Let's see if the usual suspects respond


Minimum wage is a talking point in current rhetoric.

It's weird that you are launching insults because you are meltdown again. The usual suspects see you folding and are rushing in to try to help you.

I don't get why my statement is stupid. I mean did you even understand what I said? As you can see I'm all clarification of you are not grasping what I said.

Can you tell me what my position on minimum wage even is?

But of course I'm asking you a simple question which typically results in more name calling, insults, angry denial and cut-and-run from giving and answer.

Typical bowslit. Lol!

It's pretty obvious you're in need of some bail outs at this point in your tailspin. Let's see if the usual suspects respond
 
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Posted: #28
Quote Originally Posted by SarasotaSlim:

Killer_B, I see I must be a lot older than you ....I started working in a bowling alley too ..setting pins ..for 25 cents a game.  no health care coverage,no raises ,no tips.. just a lot of bruises...lol
We used to basically run one and when ever there were money games some one in the back would give a strong push to the back catch as soon as the ball would strike the pins ( duckpins ) it would add a few maybe 6 pins per game to our scores.
 
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Posted: #29
Quote Originally Posted by bowlslit:


The issue is far more complex than what you or any other lib has articulated.

What happens to the price of two bedroom apartments when suddenly more people are in the market to acquire one? What happens to ambition when financial merit is handed to them?

What happens to the price of houses when suddenly a lot of people are in the market to purchase one? What happens to the economy when the unsustainable market corrects itself?

"Far more complex..."   - Bowlslit
and 15 bucks an hour is gonna create this..gmab
 
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Posted: #30
Quote Originally Posted by Killer_B:

If there's 10 people for a job, 5 that are model employees and 5 that are slackers, why should they all make $15 (or whatever $ amount you wish to assign the MW)? The business/employee determines wages, always has and always should. If the employee doesn't like the wage, go find another position. Certainly a "minimum wage" is necessary but I believe where its at is accurate. 

The people that want to pay the McDonald's help will be the first to shrill about why the soda will be $3 and the cheeseburger that used to be $1.50 cost $4. People will stop going, as they will to many businesses because they won't accept or can afford the costs of paying a high school student $15 to flip burgers part-time.

My first job was in a bowling alley. I started at cleaning it, then worked the counter, worked on the machine (pin chaser), maintained the lanes and drilled bowling balls. I'd say yes I earned the $2.65 I started at. I got a raise when it went to $2.90. I knew at the time there was no money in working in a bowling alley. I got a real job that started at $3.50 an hour. I didn't have the "entitled" mentality that Gen X has been infected with today.  
And why should those 5 good ones that accept it work for less than they should simply because the employer can get away with it. I appreciate your hard work and success  reminds me of our president.
 
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Posted: #31
Quote Originally Posted by SarasotaSlim:

Killer_B, I see I must be a lot older than you ....I started working in a bowling alley too ..setting pins ..for 25 cents a game.  no health care coverage,no raises ,no tips.. just a lot of bruises...lol

True slim, the electric pinsetter had been invented before my time. Brunswick paid no bennies as well though. And no one, I mean no one ever got overtime. That $4 an hour rate was never breached. I never saw anything like the turmoil and investigation that would've caused if anybody ever got 15 minutes at $4 an hour... I learned so much working there about how business worked on a local level and since it was owned by Brunswick, I also got a taste of how the corporate hacks operate as well.

My place was 20 Ten Pin lanes and 20 Duckpin lanes. Eventually, they pulled all the ducks out, and shortly after that the neighborhood fell and it became a church, along with the mall next to it, both of which are still today. We used to joke that my father uttered so many religious references while bowling  that it was destined to become a church. I had so many good times in that place, it closed in 1989 and I still miss it.
 
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Posted: #32
[Quote: Originally Posted byBiscuiteater1]
Quote Originally Posted by bowlslit:

The issue is far more complex than what you or any other lib has articulated.What happens to the price of two bedroom apartments when suddenly more people are in the market to acquire one? What happens to ambition when financial merit is handed to them?What happens to the price of houses when suddenly a lot of people are in the market to purchase one? What happens to the economy when the unsustainable market corrects itself?"Far more complex..."   - Bowlslit
and 15 bucks an hour is gonna create this..gmab


Its a cart before horse argument that can only work if other agree with doomsdays apocalyptic predictions. It's a strategy embedded in many of the taking points about things like obamacare, the economy, or whatever the prescribed talking point


Its a cart before horse argument that can only work if other agree with doomsdays apocalyptic predictions. It's a strategy embedded in many of the taking points about things like obamacare, the economy, or whatever the prescribed talking point
 
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Posted: #33
Quote Originally Posted by Biscuiteater1:

and 15 bucks an hour is gonna create this..gmab

See Darryl, that's what it's supposed to look like when you quote someone. Their quote is inside the box. Not outside. Duh

Biscuit, when I bought my first home my wife and I were both making about 13 per hour. We were paying 9% interest and had extra money left over. The house was only a 130k home but the answer to your quote is not only yes but duh.
 
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Posted: #34
Quote Originally Posted by bowlslit:


See Darryl, that's what it's supposed to look like when you quote someone. Their quote is inside the box. Not outside. Duh

Biscuit, when I bought my first home my wife and I were both making about 13 per hour. We were paying 9% interest and had extra money left over. The house was only a 130k home but the answer to your quote is not only yes but duh.
Things were different back in the day.Thanks for your opinion
 
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Posted: #35
Quote Originally Posted by dl36:

and 15 bucks an hour is gonna create this..gmab

Its a cart before horse argument that can only work if other agree with doomsdays apocalyptic predictions. It's a strategy embedded in many of the taking points about things like obamacare, the economy, or whatever the prescribed talking point
No doubt about it
 
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Posted: #36
Quote Originally Posted by Biscuiteater1:

How do you know who working these jobs are good hard working people and who is not? How many times has the wage been increased in the last 25 years and has it spelled doom for for Americas industrial output.One thing is certain the rich will get richer regardless of a buck here & there till it gets to 15. And for some one who is not begrudging another one a buck you sure sound like it. .If it was left up to big business you would have people here working for pennies as they do in other countries.
No. I don't begrudge someone earning more; I begrudge them simply being given more because we feel sorry for them. Huge difference. 
You know who is a good hard worker by evaluations, track record, and various other tools. For example, a good hard worker rarely continues to make ONLY minimum wage throughout their career.  They advance nearly always because of being a good hard worker. 
Yes. Many studies will show you the correlation there is. Of course it doesn't doom it as much as dampen it and take away from free market effect. Rich will always get rich in a free market.  That has absolutely nothing to do with minimum wage.  You are simply confusing two subjects and falling for the Left's okey-doke to feel sorry for MW workers and trying to compare it to the rich and how they are getting richer. 
Many, many, many of the rich once made MW. They didn't stay at it for their career though.  That is the point.  If you want to help people ---don't give to them for no reason---increase their skill and knowledge and make them more valuable to the employers at large.  
There are many studies and articles and books in the MW effect --- especially in a smaller and connected sector.  I would like for you to read a few and study up on them.  If you do this you seem reasonable enough to change your opinion somewhat.  Unless your mind is simply made up on ideology.  But if you want numbers and examples---they are certainly there for you.  Ideology will ignore them.  Which is what the Left does with this topic. 
 
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Posted: #37
Your opinion that if left up to companies they would pay pennies will only take the argument so far.  Then it gets too heavy to carry on and has to be dropped. 
Innovation and production drives too many companies.  If you and your company simply pay everyone pennies then you go out of business quickly.  Others will pay more for the innovators and producers.  For sure there is a range that grunt workers will be retained by both companies---and that is the issue. 
 
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Posted: #38
I'll work for $15 an hour Señor...even for less than $10 an hour ...$10 is "Mucho dinero" to me Señor..
 
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Posted: #39
Quote Originally Posted by Raiders22:

No. I don't begrudge someone earning more; I begrudge them simply being given more because we feel sorry for them. Huge difference. 
You know who is a good hard worker by evaluations, track record, and various other tools. For example, a good hard worker rarely continues to make ONLY minimum wage throughout their career.  They advance nearly always because of being a good hard worker. 
Yes. Many studies will show you the correlation there is. Of course it doesn't doom it as much as dampen it and take away from free market effect. Rich will always get rich in a free market.  That has absolutely nothing to do with minimum wage.  You are simply confusing two subjects and falling for the Left's okey-doke to feel sorry for MW workers and trying to compare it to the rich and how they are getting richer. 
Many, many, many of the rich once made MW. They didn't stay at it for their career though.  That is the point.  If you want to help people ---don't give to them for no reason---increase their skill and knowledge and make them more valuable to the employers at large.  
There are many studies and articles and books in the MW effect --- especially in a smaller and connected sector.  I would like for you to read a few and study up on them.  If you do this you seem reasonable enough to change your opinion somewhat.  Unless your mind is simply made up on ideology.  But if you want numbers and examples---they are certainly there for you.  Ideology will ignore them.  Which is what the Left does with this topic. 
Many other studies will show just how much wages have stayed low.And increasing the mw is not because people feel sorry for them, it's because if they work hard they deserve it.out.
 
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Posted: #40
Quote Originally Posted by Biscuiteater1:

Things were different back in the day.Thanks for your opinion

Thanks for proving my point. Interest rates are WAY lower than 9% nowadays.

What else is so different? Thanks for elaborating the first time.

What is it with you libs? You make a statement like this and can't even provide an idea to support it. What is your IQ....36?
 
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Posted: #41
Quote Originally Posted by Biscuiteater1:

No doubt about it

Hey look another lib that agrees with Darryl. Go figure that!
 
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Posted: #42
Quote Originally Posted by Raiders22:

Your opinion that if left up to companies they would pay pennies will only take the argument so far.  Then it gets too heavy to carry on and has to be dropped. 
Innovation and production drives too many companies.  If you and your company simply pay everyone pennies then you go out of business quickly.  Others will pay more for the innovators and producers.  For sure there is a range that grunt workers will be retained by both companies---and that is the issue. 

Spot on!

Some call it a brain drain.
 
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Posted: #43
Not sure how anyone in this thread can bemoan the raise of min wage given the direction of the job market the last decade plus.

I think in another 20 yrs we (well most people) will criticize our decisions and the pain it has brought to the current time in the future.

Job creation has come from low paying service jobs and part time work, and the over 55 age group is outpacing the younger age workers for job creation.

This means many things...it means older workers are being forced to work crappy low end jobs because they didnt prepare, underestimated costs to retire, consumed too much and didnt save while younger..whatever the reasons..all of the reasons are bad reasons, I dont want the older group to be forced to work and for crappy wages.

Also the number of not looking unemployed is at multi-decade highs, and that means the jobs available are not going to cover what they lost and people are getting frustrated with the lack of quality jobs in our economy.

The wage growth has been stagnant since 2007, companies are not raising wages and the rate of change is below the real inflation rate..so people are losing the battle of pathetic inflation..not good.

What we are evolving into is a massive chasm of a few good jobs and a ton of low wage crap jobs..and that is not healthy for any economy.

We have allowed corps to offshore the higher cost jobs to lower cost centers so they can keep their margins up and thus their earnings/stock prices/bonuses for execs etc.

Why are we mad at a min wage of 15 bucks? Why not be mad at our political system which has allowed offshoring, that rewards stock buybacks and gives disincentive to invest in human capital and R&D. 

I dont care if min wage is 15 an hour, if I dont like the cost of the services related to the jobs that offer min wage, I dont have to shop there..or I can adjust what I purchase. I dont think it would hurt our economy if people spent more wisely and we focused on how we can build up our middle class and corral in the chasm between the upper and lower.

I can tell you this, the cost of this chasm is going to be enormous to the future of our kids...who is going to support the aging population who cannot make ends meet let alone save for the future OR have disposable income to support economic growth?
 
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Posted: #44
Here in lies part of the problem.   Repubs r not saying they r "mad" about min wage.   That what u dems ascribe to them    U care about the downtrodden so repubs must be uncaring selfish mfs.   Rather, repubs say raising the minimum wage should not be done because it is merely a gimmick that will have little effect other than inflationary.

Also, if your going to have a conceptual argument bout the problems w US economy then get to the heart of the problem.  The U.S. has turned into an economy where 67% of the jobs r service related.  Even a village idiot like myself knows it is not sustainable.
 
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Posted: #45
But the village idiot that made this thread doesn't seem to have a clue. Only doomsday predictions and prognostications prescribed to him.
 
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Posted: #46
[Quote: Originally Posted bySarasotaSlim]I'll work for $15 an hour Señor...even for less than $10 an hour ...$10 is "Mucho dinero" to me Señor..[/Quote]

Funny how certain types of people are so dependent on the race card
 
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Posted: #47
Wallstreetcappers, I read your post above ..read it twice as a matter of fact ..and I can't find anything you posted, that I can disagree with ..(what's this world coming to ?) ..

As far as the MW it can be raised to $15 ..$20 an hour,but it will only speed up the technology( e.g. robots) that will replace many of the workers,that had their wages increased by a mandatory minimum wage increase. Company's will adjust to the MMW increases also by hiring more efficient and skilled workers,allowing them to use less workers.  In the mean time,, those that were making $15  and more an hour already... will have to see their wages increased  proportionally or the their incentive to do better will suffer..and hurt their production..

Besides the things you mentioned ..what we have is work force loaded with low-skilled people ( and allowing more to come in) who's skills and education have not kept up with an ever changing global world..

We already issue 85,000 or more new H-1B visas each government fiscal year...company's that don't off shore jobs,, shore them here ..

I agree, we have a big problem and gulf you refer to is only going to widen in the future.. raising the MW will never solve it..a educated and skilled work force is a better solution ..we need to let supply and demand dictate the price company's pay their works ..

...and like you said... you don't have to shop there..or you can adjust what you purchase. ..Workers can do the same.. not enough money for the work they are doing go somewhere else or adjust you're skills to qualify for a higher paying job..
 
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Posted: #48
Quote Originally Posted by Biscuiteater1:

Many other studies will show just how much wages have stayed low.And increasing the mw is not because people feel sorry for them, it's because if they work hard they deserve it.out.
Correct.  And that is a separate issue.  That's not the MW. That's the whole economic dynamic. The MW is a different deal. 
Absolutely it is because they feel sorry for them. Sure they work hard.  But some jobs are not labor intensive and skill intensive. There are others that make good deal more than MW. These jobs are very labor intensive and stressful and require a skill.  It can be argued that they are underpaid for what they do also.  But nobody is arguing for their pay to be raised.  It is not a good talking point.  Then you have people that have a stress free cushy job that has a great salary. Nobody is calling for their pay to be cut.  It is only for the MW guy and cuts for execs. It is always jealous and sympathy. 
Waiting a window at fast food joint simply is not hard.  So it is not that they work hard. 
 
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Posted: #49
Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:

Not sure how anyone in this thread can bemoan the raise of min wage given the direction of the job market the last decade plus.

I think in another 20 yrs we (well most people) will criticize our decisions and the pain it has brought to the current time in the future.

Job creation has come from low paying service jobs and part time work, and the over 55 age group is outpacing the younger age workers for job creation.

This means many things...it means older workers are being forced to work crappy low end jobs because they didnt prepare, underestimated costs to retire, consumed too much and didnt save while younger..whatever the reasons..all of the reasons are bad reasons, I dont want the older group to be forced to work and for crappy wages.

Also the number of not looking unemployed is at multi-decade highs, and that means the jobs available are not going to cover what they lost and people are getting frustrated with the lack of quality jobs in our economy.

The wage growth has been stagnant since 2007, companies are not raising wages and the rate of change is below the real inflation rate..so people are losing the battle of pathetic inflation..not good.

What we are evolving into is a massive chasm of a few good jobs and a ton of low wage crap jobs..and that is not healthy for any economy.

We have allowed corps to offshore the higher cost jobs to lower cost centers so they can keep their margins up and thus their earnings/stock prices/bonuses for execs etc.

Why are we mad at a min wage of 15 bucks? Why not be mad at our political system which has allowed offshoring, that rewards stock buybacks and gives disincentive to invest in human capital and R&D. 

I dont care if min wage is 15 an hour, if I dont like the cost of the services related to the jobs that offer min wage, I dont have to shop there..or I can adjust what I purchase. I dont think it would hurt our economy if people spent more wisely and we focused on how we can build up our middle class and corral in the chasm between the upper and lower.

I can tell you this, the cost of this chasm is going to be enormous to the future of our kids...who is going to support the aging population who cannot make ends meet let alone save for the future OR have disposable income to support economic growth?


Everybody read this as many times as it takes to sink in.   Well done Wall.
 
 
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Posted: #50
Quote Originally Posted by shiek:

Here in lies part of the problem.   Repubs r not saying they r "mad" about min wage.   That what u dems ascribe to them    U care about the downtrodden so repubs must be uncaring selfish mfs.   Rather, repubs say raising the minimum wage should not be done because it is merely a gimmick that will have little effect other than inflationary.

Also, if your going to have a conceptual argument bout the problems w US economy then get to the heart of the problem.  The U.S. has turned into an economy where 67% of the jobs r service related.  Even a village idiot like myself knows it is not sustainable.
I agree. But also think it is a difference of ideologies. Both want better for MW folks.  Right thinks Left wants to take from folks making the money and simply give to poorer.  Left thinks Right feels they should be able to pull themselves together just by saying so. Neither is absolutely true. 
Yes. More service related. But things are always changing.  Look at the ag industry a hundred years ago.  Most folks worked there.  Now very few do. Etc etc. 
Left feels simply easing MW fixes problem.  It is short term at best. Right would like long term fix.  Get education skill and don't stay at MW. 
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