• Forums
  • Best Betting Sites
  • Sportsbook Promos
  • Best Sports Betting Apps
  • NFL Betting Forum
  • NBA Betting Forum
  • MLB Betting Forum
  • NHL Betting Forum
  • NCAAF Betting Forum
  • NCAAB Betting Forum
  • Soccer Betting Forum
  • Tennis Betting Forum
  • General Discussion
  • Help Forum
  • Guidelines
  • FAQ
  • Forum Updates
    Covers Logo
    Covers App
    Faster picks. Smarter bets.
    All in the NEW Covers App
    Download on the App Store Download on the Google Play Store
    • Sports
      • NFL
        • Back
        • NFL
        • NFL Home
        • Scores & Matchups
        • Prop Projections
        • NFL Picks
        • Weather
        • Injuries
      • NCAAF
        • Back
        • NCAAF
        • NCAAF Home
        • Scores & Matchups
        • Prop Projections
        • NCAAF Picks
        • Weather
        • Injuries
      • NBA
        • Back
        • NBA
        • NBA Home
        • Scores & Matchups
        • Prop Projections
        • NBA Picks
        • Injuries
      • NCAAB
        • Back
        • NCAAB
        • NCAAB Home
        • Scores & Matchups
        • NCAAB Picks
        • Injuries
      • MLB
        • Back
        • MLB
        • MLB Home
        • Scores & Matchups
        • Prop Projections
        • MLB Picks
        • Weather
        • Injuries
      • NHL
        • Back
        • NHL
        • NHL Home
        • Scores & Matchups
        • Prop Projections
        • NHL Picks
        • Injuries
      • Soccer
      • UFC
      • WNBA
        • Back
        • WNBA
        • WNBA Home
        • Scores & Matchups
        • WNBA Picks
        • Injuries
      • CFL
        • Back
        • CFL
        • CFL Home
        • Scores & Matchups
        • CFL Picks
      • Golf
        • Back
        • Golf
        • Golf Home
        • Golf Odds
        • Masters Odds
        • PGA Championship Odds
        • US Open Odds
        • British Open Odds
        • Ryder Cup Odds
        • Golf Picks
    • Odds
      • All Odds
      • NFL
      • NCAAF
      • NBA
      • NCAAB
      • MLB
      • NHL
      • Golf
      • Soccer Odds
        • Back
        • Soccer Odds
        • MLS Odds
        • Champions League Odds
        • Premier League Odds
      • UFC
      • WNBA
      • CFL
      • Election Odds
      • Futures
        • Back
        • Futures
        • NFL
        • NBA
        • MLB
        • NHL
        • NCAAB
        • NCAAF
      • Sports Odds History
    • Picks
      • All Picks
      • NFL
      • NBA
      • NHL
      • MLB
      • NCAAF
      • NCAAB
      • Golf
      • WNBA
      • CFL
      • User Picks
      • Team User Picks
      • Consensus Picks
        • Back
        • Consensus Picks
        • All Consensus Picks
        • NFL
        • NBA
        • NHL
        • MLB
        • NCAAF
        • NCAAB
        • CFL
        • WNBA
        • Consensus FAQ
        • Public Money
    • Prop Projections
      • NFL
      • NBA
      • MLB
      • NHL
    • Betting
      • US Betting Sites
      • Canada Betting Sites
      • Sportsbook Reviews
      • States
        • Back
        • States
        • US Legal Tracker
        • Revenue Tracker
        • Arizona
        • Arkansas
        • California
        • Colorado
        • Connecticut
        • DC
        • Florida
        • Georgia
        • Illinois
        • Indiana
        • Iowa
        • Kansas
        • Kentucky
        • Louisiana
        • Maine
        • Maryland
        • Massachusetts
        • Michigan
        • Mississippi
        • Missouri
        • Nevada
        • New Hampshire
        • New Jersey
        • New York
        • North Carolina
        • Ohio
        • Oregon
        • Pennsylvania
        • Tennessee
        • Texas
        • Vermont
        • Virginia
        • West Virginia
        • Wyoming
      • Provinces
        • Back
        • Provinces
        • Alberta
        • British Columbia
        • Manitoba
        • New Brunswick
        • Newfoundland and Labrador
        • Northwest Territories
        • Nova Scotia
        • Nunavut
        • Ontario
        • Prince Edward Island
        • Quebec (English)
        • Quebec (francais)
        • Saskatchewan
        • Yukon
      • By Sport
        • Back
        • By Sport
        • Baseball
        • Basketball
        • Boxing
        • College Football
        • F1
        • Football
        • Super Bowl
        • Golf
        • Hockey
        • Horse Racing
        • March Madness
        • Soccer
        • UFC
        • World Cup
      • Betting Apps
        • Back
        • Betting Apps
        • Best Sports Betting Apps USA
        • Ontario Sports Betting Apps
      • Rest of World
        • Back
        • Rest of World
        • UK Betting Offers
          • Back
          • UK Betting Offers
          • UK Betting Sites
          • bet365 Bonus Code UK
          • 888Sport Promo Code UK
          • William Hill Sign up Offer
          • Betway Sign up Offer
          • BetVictor Bonus Code UK
      • Betting Guides
        • Back
        • Betting Guides
        • All Guides
        • Glossary
        • Betting Calculators
          • Back
          • Betting Calculators
          • Odds Converter
          • Parlay Calculator
        • Futures Betting Guide
        • Moneyline Betting Guide
        • Over/Under Betting Guide
        • Parlay Betting Guide
        • Point Spread Betting Guide
        • Prop Betting Guide
        • Sports Betting Guides
          • Back
          • Sports Betting Guides
          • How To Bet On Sports Guide
          • NFL Betting Guide
          • NHL Betting Guide
          • NBA Betting Guide
          • MLB Betting Guide
          • NCAAB Betting Guide
          • NCAAF Betting Guide
          • Golf Betting Guide
          • Tennis Betting Guide
        • Teaser Betting Guide
      • Betting News
        • Back
        • Betting News
        • All News
        • Industry News
        • Podcasts
        • Covers Videos
        • Covers Writers
        • Offers & Boosts
    • Promos
      • Sportsbook Promos
      • Canada Sportsbook Promos
      • Bonuses By Sportsbook
        • Back
        • Bonuses By Sportsbook
        • bet365 Bonus Code
        • BET99 Promo Code
        • BetMGM Bonus Code
        • BetRivers Bonus Code
        • Caesars Sportsbook Promo
        • DraftKings Promo Code
        • Fanatics Sportsbook Promo
        • FanDuel Promo Code
        • Hard Rock Bet Promo Code
        • Sports Interaction Promo
        • Stake Promo Code
        • theScore Bet Promo Code
        • TonyBet Promo Code
      • Bonuses By Region
        • Back
        • Bonuses By Region
        • Arkansas Promos
        • Arizona Promos
        • Colorado Promos
        • Connecticut Promos
        • DC Promos
        • Illinois Promos
        • Indiana Promos
        • Iowa Promos
        • Kansas Promos
        • Kentucky Promos
        • Louisiana Promos
        • Maine Promos
        • Maryland Promos
        • Massachusetts Promos
        • Michigan Promos
        • Missouri Promos
        • New Jersey Promos
        • New York Promos
        • North Carolina Promos
        • Ohio Promos
        • Pennsylvania Promos
        • Tennessee Promos
        • Vermont Promos
        • Virginia Promos
        • West Virginia Promos
        • Wyoming Promos
    • Forum & Contests
      • All Forums
      • NFL Betting Forum
      • MLB Betting Forum
      • NCAAB Betting Forum
      • NCAAF Betting Forum
      • NBA Betting Forum
      • NHL Betting Forum
      • Soccer Betting Forum
      • Contests
        • Back
        • Contests
        • Contests Home
        • Streak Survivor
        • King of Covers
        • My Contests
    • Casino
      • Sweepstakes Casino
        • Back
        • Sweepstakes Casino
        • Sweepstakes Casino
        • Sweepstakes No-Deposit Bonuses
        • Sweepstakes Promos
          • Back
          • Sweepstakes Promos
          • Card Crush
          • Casino.click
          • Chanced Casino
          • Crown Coins Casino
          • FreeSpin Casino
          • LoneStar
          • McLuck
          • Mega Bonanza Casino
          • PlayFame
          • Pulsz
          • Stake.us
      • US Casinos
        • Back
        • US Casinos
        • US Online Casinos
        • US Online Casino Bonuses
        • Casino Promos
          • Back
          • Casino Promos
          • bet365 Casino Promo Code
          • BetRivers Casino Promo
          • Borgata Casino Bonus Code
          • Caesars Casino Bonus Code
          • DraftKings Casino Promo
          • Fanatics Casino Promo
          • FanDuel Casino Promo Code
          • Golden Nugget Casino Promo
          • Hard Rock Bet Casino Promo
          • Hollywood Casino Promo Code
      • Canada Casinos
        • Back
        • Canada Casinos
        • Canada Online Casinos
        • Provinces
          • Back
          • Provinces
          • Alberta Online Casino
          • BC Online Casino
          • Ontario Online Casinos
        • Casino Promos
          • Back
          • Casino Promos
          • BC.GAME Bonus Code
          • Cloudbet Promo Code
          • RainBet Promo Code
          • Roobet Promo Code
          • Shuffle Promo Code
          • Thrill Promo Code
    • Prediction Markets
      • Prediction Markets
      • Prediction Market Apps
      • Prediction Market Promos
      • Kalshi Promo Code
      • Polymarket Promo Code
      • DraftKings Predictions Promo Code
      • Novig Promo Code
      • ProphetX Promo Code
      • Underdog Promo Code
      • OG Promo Code
      • Fanatics Markets Promo Code
      • Plus500 Promo Code
    • NFL Week 2
      NFL Week 2
      • NFL Odds
      • NFL Picks
      • NFL Prediction Markets
      • NFL Betting Sites
    Covers Account
    Log in Create account
    Join free Log in
    All Forums | Poker

    A couple of poker pros gone busto

    «First Previous 123 ... 567 Next Last»
    JamesD816
    BIGfnPOO
    earthWake
    Bling
    Fortmax
    ...
    Participants:
    Search model icon
    Views: 73291
    Posts: 161
    «First Previous 123 ... 567 Next Last»
     
    JamesD816
    JamesD816
    Prospect
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Jan, 2013
    Posts: 65
    Posted: Jun. 17, 2013 - 3:11 AM ET #101



    Thank you Bling, BigF 


    Hello Earth. Let me respond to your post. I was asked to list 20 different potential weaknesses I have noticed at a poker table. Going into detail on each would have been quite time consuming. Thats why I mentioned in my post if anyone wants me to elaborate on a specific weakness just ask and I will when I have the time.  Now to  your question.

      No of course you do not ALWAYS continuation bet after you raised preflop.  Although guys like Dan Harrington and Barry Greenstein made a fortune doing just that in the last 25 years. In the old days the logic was simple, you made a pre flop bet which implied strength. Your opponent called and did not raise, which implies weakness. So if you "continue the story" and raise the flop more often then not you will take the pot down immediately since more then likely your opponent missed the flop. The odds of flopping a single pair or better is 32% and of course most of that is bottom or middle pair which is nothing special. So a continuation bet was far more often then not the best play.

      Unfortunately modern players know that flopping a pair is difficult. Flopping two pair if you have non paired cards is TWO PERCENT. So 1 out of 50 times!  So sometimes when you continuation bet opponents will float or even raise you. Float means call with nothing to steal the pot later on the turn or river with a bluff of their own. These types of techniques were not employed 15 years ago so now as the pre flop aggressor you have to be more savvy then in the old days. All of this means the continuation bet is not as rock solid as it used to be. It is still something you NEED to do, but you can not just close your eyes and throw chips at the pot like in the old days and get your opponent to fold 80+%  of the time.  

    Ok so when do we continuation bet even if we miss the flop when playing live poker ?? 

    1. Dry flops are a good spot to continuation bet . A dry flop is a board your opponent probably missed. For example 3-6-10 rainbow ( three suits) probably did not help him or you. If you bet here even IF your opponent got a piece of this flop he may fear you have an over pair and he is still in trouble. Also you do not have to worry about him having two pair or an over pair himself. Why not you ask? Because if he had two of these crappy  cards he would not have called your raise pre flop and if he had an over pair he would have re raised you preflop. These are great spots to make a continuation bet.

    2.  If a flop is in your raise range.  For instance lets say you raise pre flop with 77 and the flop is A K 8 rainbow. Well that is certainly a bad flop for your actual hand but its a good flop for your range. As the pre flop aggressor those two high cards on the flop are very scary to your opponent. So many raising hands will smack that flop in the mouth that even if he has a piece, K10 suited for example, he will fear you have the Ace or have his King out kicked. Also you dont have to fear his range too much because if he has AA KK or AK he is probably raising you pre flop not just calling you. So unless he has 88 and flopped bottom set you are putting him in a tough spot with this continuation bet. 
    3. Opponent tendencies is the most important aspect of continuation betting. I did not put it on top because many times you do not know your opponent well enough to have any info on his tendencies. However sometimes you do. Lets say you do know your opponents some, well the tight players that only stick around with Top pair or better you should absolutely make a continuation bet even if you completely missed the flop. The guys who short stack or are maniacs  and often push all in if they are facing a bet after the flop you have to be more cautious with. You only bet against them with a piece of the flop, whether it be a draw or a pair.

    4. Multi barrel bluffs  are also critical to beating anything higher then 1-2/2-5 NL games. When a flop comes and you do make a continuation bet be aware of cards that would make a turn bet scary to your opponent and what will not. I will give an extreme example to illustrate.  Lets say you raise pre flop with 66  and get one caller. Flop is A Q 7 and you make your continuation bet but your  opponent calls. The turn is a 2. This is not a great card to bluff at because if your opponent felt he was okay with A Q 7  then the 2 certainly isnt going to strike the fear of god into him. Now if the turn is a King a second barrel is more likely to get your opponent to fold. Because a king smacks right in the middle of your hand range, that 2 certainly did not.

    5. Bet your draws on the flop. If you pick up a strong flush or straight draw on the flop bet it. You may scoop the pot right there and if you do not you will bloat the pot which will be hugely beneficial if you make the draw on the turn. If you make the draw on the turn a check on the turn can also be very effective because it makes it look like you are upset that 3rd club came or the third straight card. Many times your opponent will perceive your check as weakness and bet into your very strong hand trying to represent that they hit the draw you actually hit. These spots can really be profitable and you need to exploit whenever possible

    When not to continuation bet if you missed flop

    1. Multiway pots, three or four players greatly increases the chance of a call or two that you do not want

    2  A calling station called your pre flop raise. If you missed the flop calling stations can be a nightmare. Unless you are prepared to fire a second or even third bullet tread carefully. if you hit the flop they are heaven on earth if not it may be time to shut it down 

    3  Very coordinated flop. 8d 9d 10s type flops are not something to normally continuation bet against. You want to see 2c 6d 10h type flops. Coordinated flops give your opponents too many possibilities and he may have gotten a piece.

    4 being out of position against the opponent that called pre flop is also a negative but not a critical factor regarding continuation bets after you missed the flop.

    5. Your one caller was the short stack and he is virtually pot committed. This is rare but it happens. Lets say you are playing 5-10 and there is a limper or two and you make it 40 to go. The only caller of your 40 is a player who is currently really low on chips, lets say he had 75 before the hand started. Well now he called your 40 and there is 115 in the pot after the flop. He only has 35 left so putting him all in would mean he has to call 35 for a chance to win 150, if he is a smart player he is calling with virtually anything so be aware of this type of situation. 

    6. If someone is on super tilt and having a tough session ( lets say he just had to re buy in the last 5-10 minutes) be wary of continuation betting with nothing. He may be very reluctant to surrender his hand just out of frustration.

    Those are some of the tactics to employ when you raise pre flop and miss the flop. There is tons more of course but this is some of the basics.

     
    Reply
    Quote Post
    0
    Report User


    Thank you Bling, BigF 


    Hello Earth. Let me respond to your post. I was asked to list 20 different potential weaknesses I have noticed at a poker table. Going into detail on each would have been quite time consuming. Thats why I mentioned in my post if anyone wants me to elaborate on a specific weakness just ask and I will when I have the time.  Now to  your question.

      No of course you do not ALWAYS continuation bet after you raised preflop.  Although guys like Dan Harrington and Barry Greenstein made a fortune doing just that in the last 25 years. In the old days the logic was simple, you made a pre flop bet which implied strength. Your opponent called and did not raise, which implies weakness. So if you "continue the story" and raise the flop more often then not you will take the pot down immediately since more then likely your opponent missed the flop. The odds of flopping a single pair or better is 32% and of course most of that is bottom or middle pair which is nothing special. So a continuation bet was far more often then not the best play.

      Unfortunately modern players know that flopping a pair is difficult. Flopping two pair if you have non paired cards is TWO PERCENT. So 1 out of 50 times!  So sometimes when you continuation bet opponents will float or even raise you. Float means call with nothing to steal the pot later on the turn or river with a bluff of their own. These types of techniques were not employed 15 years ago so now as the pre flop aggressor you have to be more savvy then in the old days. All of this means the continuation bet is not as rock solid as it used to be. It is still something you NEED to do, but you can not just close your eyes and throw chips at the pot like in the old days and get your opponent to fold 80+%  of the time.  

    Ok so when do we continuation bet even if we miss the flop when playing live poker ?? 

    1. Dry flops are a good spot to continuation bet . A dry flop is a board your opponent probably missed. For example 3-6-10 rainbow ( three suits) probably did not help him or you. If you bet here even IF your opponent got a piece of this flop he may fear you have an over pair and he is still in trouble. Also you do not have to worry about him having two pair or an over pair himself. Why not you ask? Because if he had two of these crappy  cards he would not have called your raise pre flop and if he had an over pair he would have re raised you preflop. These are great spots to make a continuation bet.

    2.  If a flop is in your raise range.  For instance lets say you raise pre flop with 77 and the flop is A K 8 rainbow. Well that is certainly a bad flop for your actual hand but its a good flop for your range. As the pre flop aggressor those two high cards on the flop are very scary to your opponent. So many raising hands will smack that flop in the mouth that even if he has a piece, K10 suited for example, he will fear you have the Ace or have his King out kicked. Also you dont have to fear his range too much because if he has AA KK or AK he is probably raising you pre flop not just calling you. So unless he has 88 and flopped bottom set you are putting him in a tough spot with this continuation bet. 
    3. Opponent tendencies is the most important aspect of continuation betting. I did not put it on top because many times you do not know your opponent well enough to have any info on his tendencies. However sometimes you do. Lets say you do know your opponents some, well the tight players that only stick around with Top pair or better you should absolutely make a continuation bet even if you completely missed the flop. The guys who short stack or are maniacs  and often push all in if they are facing a bet after the flop you have to be more cautious with. You only bet against them with a piece of the flop, whether it be a draw or a pair.

    4. Multi barrel bluffs  are also critical to beating anything higher then 1-2/2-5 NL games. When a flop comes and you do make a continuation bet be aware of cards that would make a turn bet scary to your opponent and what will not. I will give an extreme example to illustrate.  Lets say you raise pre flop with 66  and get one caller. Flop is A Q 7 and you make your continuation bet but your  opponent calls. The turn is a 2. This is not a great card to bluff at because if your opponent felt he was okay with A Q 7  then the 2 certainly isnt going to strike the fear of god into him. Now if the turn is a King a second barrel is more likely to get your opponent to fold. Because a king smacks right in the middle of your hand range, that 2 certainly did not.

    5. Bet your draws on the flop. If you pick up a strong flush or straight draw on the flop bet it. You may scoop the pot right there and if you do not you will bloat the pot which will be hugely beneficial if you make the draw on the turn. If you make the draw on the turn a check on the turn can also be very effective because it makes it look like you are upset that 3rd club came or the third straight card. Many times your opponent will perceive your check as weakness and bet into your very strong hand trying to represent that they hit the draw you actually hit. These spots can really be profitable and you need to exploit whenever possible

    When not to continuation bet if you missed flop

    1. Multiway pots, three or four players greatly increases the chance of a call or two that you do not want

    2  A calling station called your pre flop raise. If you missed the flop calling stations can be a nightmare. Unless you are prepared to fire a second or even third bullet tread carefully. if you hit the flop they are heaven on earth if not it may be time to shut it down 

    3  Very coordinated flop. 8d 9d 10s type flops are not something to normally continuation bet against. You want to see 2c 6d 10h type flops. Coordinated flops give your opponents too many possibilities and he may have gotten a piece.

    4 being out of position against the opponent that called pre flop is also a negative but not a critical factor regarding continuation bets after you missed the flop.

    5. Your one caller was the short stack and he is virtually pot committed. This is rare but it happens. Lets say you are playing 5-10 and there is a limper or two and you make it 40 to go. The only caller of your 40 is a player who is currently really low on chips, lets say he had 75 before the hand started. Well now he called your 40 and there is 115 in the pot after the flop. He only has 35 left so putting him all in would mean he has to call 35 for a chance to win 150, if he is a smart player he is calling with virtually anything so be aware of this type of situation. 

    6. If someone is on super tilt and having a tough session ( lets say he just had to re buy in the last 5-10 minutes) be wary of continuation betting with nothing. He may be very reluctant to surrender his hand just out of frustration.

    Those are some of the tactics to employ when you raise pre flop and miss the flop. There is tons more of course but this is some of the basics.

     
     
    JamesD816
    JamesD816
    Prospect
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Jan, 2013
    Posts: 65
    Posted: Jun. 17, 2013 - 3:53 AM ET #102

    Quote Originally Posted by Bling:

    James, thanks for the info.  You are by far the most knowledgeable player to grace this thread.


    I have a question on #21.  Can you expound further on the reverse free roll?  There are times where I will bet in the situation that you just mentioned, i.e when I have a set, top two pair, etc. when there is an open ended straight draw or maybe even 4 to a flush at times when I am pretty sure my opponent was not on those draws.  I strike first so he cannot bet to try to bluff me out of the pot.  Is that what you were implying?

    That is not it exactly no but it is similar. Reverse free rolls are a little less nuanced and usually involve an all in wager/  But I want to address what you posted first because these type of mistakes are costly. Then I will explain the reverse free roll ( I think Phil Laak coined the term, others call it a negative free roll, I will provide a link later in this post and a short summary)

     In your example if you truly have confidence in your read on your opponent then betting is a horrible decision. Lets use your example.  You have a set and there is a four card flush or a straight possibility on the board. You are confident your opponent does not have either of these completed draws.  If you feel strongly why would you "strike first" and bet?  If you are correct and you do bet he is going to fold  because he does not have a hand that can EVER call with the board you described. Therefore this bet can never be profitable. If you are correct you make no money ( because he folds) and worse if you are wrong he calls or re raises with his flush or straight and you lose even more money. If you are confident he does not have the straight or flush and you have  a set let him bet and then just flat call.  If you are correct you are going to catch his bluff and win his money. DO NOT raise  in this spot because if he has the flush or straight he will re raise and you are going to be left wondering whether he is still bluffing and may call re raise despite the fact that he is virtually never going to re raise in that spot without having the flush, and a strong flush at that.


    Ok now to the reverse/negative freeroll. I will give an EXTREME hypothetical example to hopefully give you an understanding of what a reverse/negative freeroll is. Then you can read the link and see a more typical example. I am giving this example just because it makes the definition easier to understand. Of course it is hypothetical

    You have Ac6c and 5 million dollars in front of you .  Your opponent has 4.5 million in front of him and that is all the money either of you has in the world.   You have no idea what cards your opponent holds. He is a great player and the pot only has 5 thousand dollars in it as we go to the river. 

    The board reads   7c 8c 9c 3d 10c

    You had the nut flush and now catch the bottom end of the straight flush on the river.  A reverse freeroll would be if you bet your 5 million on the river. Why is this a reverse freeroll and a HORRIBLE bet?  Well there is only 1 card that can beat you. The Jack of clubs of course. The problem with your bet is there is NO CHANCE you get a call from your opponent unless he has that card. So you only get a call if you lose and will never get a call if you have the best hand.  Do you understand? The example you posted is similar in a sense, but in your example you DO have a way to make some money, by checking and letting the guy bluff into your set.

    Here is the wiki definition of a negative freeroll

    Negative freeroll - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    Hope this helps. if not tell me why and I will try to be more clear
    Reply
    Quote Post
    0
    Report User
    Quote Originally Posted by Bling:

    James, thanks for the info.  You are by far the most knowledgeable player to grace this thread.


    I have a question on #21.  Can you expound further on the reverse free roll?  There are times where I will bet in the situation that you just mentioned, i.e when I have a set, top two pair, etc. when there is an open ended straight draw or maybe even 4 to a flush at times when I am pretty sure my opponent was not on those draws.  I strike first so he cannot bet to try to bluff me out of the pot.  Is that what you were implying?

    That is not it exactly no but it is similar. Reverse free rolls are a little less nuanced and usually involve an all in wager/  But I want to address what you posted first because these type of mistakes are costly. Then I will explain the reverse free roll ( I think Phil Laak coined the term, others call it a negative free roll, I will provide a link later in this post and a short summary)

     In your example if you truly have confidence in your read on your opponent then betting is a horrible decision. Lets use your example.  You have a set and there is a four card flush or a straight possibility on the board. You are confident your opponent does not have either of these completed draws.  If you feel strongly why would you "strike first" and bet?  If you are correct and you do bet he is going to fold  because he does not have a hand that can EVER call with the board you described. Therefore this bet can never be profitable. If you are correct you make no money ( because he folds) and worse if you are wrong he calls or re raises with his flush or straight and you lose even more money. If you are confident he does not have the straight or flush and you have  a set let him bet and then just flat call.  If you are correct you are going to catch his bluff and win his money. DO NOT raise  in this spot because if he has the flush or straight he will re raise and you are going to be left wondering whether he is still bluffing and may call re raise despite the fact that he is virtually never going to re raise in that spot without having the flush, and a strong flush at that.


    Ok now to the reverse/negative freeroll. I will give an EXTREME hypothetical example to hopefully give you an understanding of what a reverse/negative freeroll is. Then you can read the link and see a more typical example. I am giving this example just because it makes the definition easier to understand. Of course it is hypothetical

    You have Ac6c and 5 million dollars in front of you .  Your opponent has 4.5 million in front of him and that is all the money either of you has in the world.   You have no idea what cards your opponent holds. He is a great player and the pot only has 5 thousand dollars in it as we go to the river. 

    The board reads   7c 8c 9c 3d 10c

    You had the nut flush and now catch the bottom end of the straight flush on the river.  A reverse freeroll would be if you bet your 5 million on the river. Why is this a reverse freeroll and a HORRIBLE bet?  Well there is only 1 card that can beat you. The Jack of clubs of course. The problem with your bet is there is NO CHANCE you get a call from your opponent unless he has that card. So you only get a call if you lose and will never get a call if you have the best hand.  Do you understand? The example you posted is similar in a sense, but in your example you DO have a way to make some money, by checking and letting the guy bluff into your set.

    Here is the wiki definition of a negative freeroll

    Negative freeroll - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    Hope this helps. if not tell me why and I will try to be more clear
     
    JamesD816
    JamesD816
    Prospect
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Jan, 2013
    Posts: 65
    Posted: Jun. 17, 2013 - 4:05 AM ET #103

    Quote Originally Posted by TRAIN69:

    I agree and understand. I think the problem with trying to grasp poker skill is that there isnt another game/sport to really compare it to. No teams. Cant choose your weapon (no golf clubs, balls,pucks etc), you go into every hand not knowing what 2 cards you are going to look at. You dont know what "the score" is (wether your hand is the best), you have to deduce what the opponent has through various factors.

    I am unsure if there is a ceiling to how good you can get, but the odds/luck part will cripple the best players in the world a good percentage of the time. Winning a poker hand doesnt mean you are better than the other guy. Rare game where a foolish move doesnt mean you will lose.

    Kenny Rogers actually put it best in 1978 :

    "Now Ev'ry gambler knows that the secret to survivin'
    Is knowin' what to throw away and knowing what to keep.
    'Cause ev'ry hand's a winner and ev'ry hand's a loser,
    And the best that you can hope for is to die in your sleep."

    Van


    OK last post of the night.  Then going to bed

     Reading trains posts on covers I can see Poker is not his favorite form of gambling. I have read his sports threads and he does have a stronger opinion and greater expertise in that arena. My favorite part of this quote is the Kenny Rogers quote because as a poker poker player I agree the quote has some validity but train is highlighting the wrong part.

    Now Ev'ry gambler knows that the secret to survivin'
    is knowin what to throw away and knowing what to keep.
    'Cause ev'ry hand's a winner and ev'ry hand's a loser,
    and the best that you can hope for is to die in your sleep.



    That is the part a poker player would agree with.  Good night all
    Reply
    Quote Post
    0
    Report User
    Quote Originally Posted by TRAIN69:

    I agree and understand. I think the problem with trying to grasp poker skill is that there isnt another game/sport to really compare it to. No teams. Cant choose your weapon (no golf clubs, balls,pucks etc), you go into every hand not knowing what 2 cards you are going to look at. You dont know what "the score" is (wether your hand is the best), you have to deduce what the opponent has through various factors.

    I am unsure if there is a ceiling to how good you can get, but the odds/luck part will cripple the best players in the world a good percentage of the time. Winning a poker hand doesnt mean you are better than the other guy. Rare game where a foolish move doesnt mean you will lose.

    Kenny Rogers actually put it best in 1978 :

    "Now Ev'ry gambler knows that the secret to survivin'
    Is knowin' what to throw away and knowing what to keep.
    'Cause ev'ry hand's a winner and ev'ry hand's a loser,
    And the best that you can hope for is to die in your sleep."

    Van


    OK last post of the night.  Then going to bed

     Reading trains posts on covers I can see Poker is not his favorite form of gambling. I have read his sports threads and he does have a stronger opinion and greater expertise in that arena. My favorite part of this quote is the Kenny Rogers quote because as a poker poker player I agree the quote has some validity but train is highlighting the wrong part.

    Now Ev'ry gambler knows that the secret to survivin'
    is knowin what to throw away and knowing what to keep.
    'Cause ev'ry hand's a winner and ev'ry hand's a loser,
    and the best that you can hope for is to die in your sleep.



    That is the part a poker player would agree with.  Good night all
     
    BIGfnPOO
    BIGfnPOO
    MVP
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Jun, 2006
    Posts: 18880
    Posted: Jun. 17, 2013 - 8:48 AM ET #104

    bravo well done. 
    bigFnPOO
    Reply
    Quote Post
    0
    Report User
    bravo well done. 
     
    earthWake
    earthWake
    Captain
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Sep, 2011
    Posts: 6196
    Posted: Jun. 17, 2013 - 4:22 PM ET #105

    Well said JamesD, I wish I knew you so I could pick your brain more 
    Reply
    Quote Post
    0
    Report User
    Well said JamesD, I wish I knew you so I could pick your brain more 
     
    Bling
    Bling
    Legend
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Sep, 2005
    Posts: 41476
    Posted: Jun. 17, 2013 - 7:20 PM ET #106

    Quote Originally Posted by BIGfnPOO:

    bling when u last to act and bet a set on a 4 flush brd and i raise u  where r u?
    In my scenario I am under the gun. 
    Reply
    Quote Post
    0
    Report User
    Quote Originally Posted by BIGfnPOO:

    bling when u last to act and bet a set on a 4 flush brd and i raise u  where r u?
    In my scenario I am under the gun. 
     
    Bling
    Bling
    Legend
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Sep, 2005
    Posts: 41476
    Posted: Jun. 17, 2013 - 7:34 PM ET #107

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesD816:




     In your example if you truly have confidence in your read on your opponent then betting is a horrible decision. Lets use your example.  You have a set and there is a four card flush or a straight possibility on the board. You are confident your opponent does not have either of these completed draws.  If you feel strongly why would you "strike first" and bet?  If you are correct and you do bet he is going to fold  because he does not have a hand that can EVER call with the board you described. Therefore this bet can never be profitable. If you are correct you make no money ( because he folds) and worse if you are wrong he calls or re raises with his flush or straight and you lose even more money. If you are confident he does not have the straight or flush and you have  a set let him bet and then just flat call.  If you are correct you are going to catch his bluff and win his money. DO NOT raise  in this spot because if he has the flush or straight he will re raise and you are going to be left wondering whether he is still bluffing and may call re raise despite the fact that he is virtually never going to re raise in that spot without having the flush, and a strong flush at that.



    Thanks for the reply.  In my example, I would bet to prevent him from going all-in on a bluff forcing me to fold.  Under the gun I would bet something I would be willing to lose (and make it seem like I am trying to get him to call), and if he re-raises I most likely fold because I am 90% sure my read was wrong and he made his hand.  If I do nothing, he knows I most likely don't have the flush or straight and may go all in to steal the pot, knowing I can only call if I made it.   
    Reply
    Quote Post
    0
    Report User
    Quote Originally Posted by JamesD816:




     In your example if you truly have confidence in your read on your opponent then betting is a horrible decision. Lets use your example.  You have a set and there is a four card flush or a straight possibility on the board. You are confident your opponent does not have either of these completed draws.  If you feel strongly why would you "strike first" and bet?  If you are correct and you do bet he is going to fold  because he does not have a hand that can EVER call with the board you described. Therefore this bet can never be profitable. If you are correct you make no money ( because he folds) and worse if you are wrong he calls or re raises with his flush or straight and you lose even more money. If you are confident he does not have the straight or flush and you have  a set let him bet and then just flat call.  If you are correct you are going to catch his bluff and win his money. DO NOT raise  in this spot because if he has the flush or straight he will re raise and you are going to be left wondering whether he is still bluffing and may call re raise despite the fact that he is virtually never going to re raise in that spot without having the flush, and a strong flush at that.



    Thanks for the reply.  In my example, I would bet to prevent him from going all-in on a bluff forcing me to fold.  Under the gun I would bet something I would be willing to lose (and make it seem like I am trying to get him to call), and if he re-raises I most likely fold because I am 90% sure my read was wrong and he made his hand.  If I do nothing, he knows I most likely don't have the flush or straight and may go all in to steal the pot, knowing I can only call if I made it.   
     
    Bling
    Bling
    Legend
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Sep, 2005
    Posts: 41476
    Posted: Jun. 17, 2013 - 7:36 PM ET #108

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesD816:

    You have Ac6c and 5 million dollars in front of you .  Your opponent has 4.5 million in front of him and that is all the money either of you has in the world.   You have no idea what cards your opponent holds. He is a great player and the pot only has 5 thousand dollars in it as we go to the river. 

    The board reads   7c 8c 9c 3d 10c

    You had the nut flush and now catch the bottom end of the straight flush on the river.  A reverse freeroll would be if you bet your 5 million on the river. Why is this a reverse freeroll and a HORRIBLE bet?  Well there is only 1 card that can beat you. The Jack of clubs of course. The problem with your bet is there is NO CHANCE you get a call from your opponent unless he has that card. So you only get a call if you lose and will never get a call if you have the best hand.  Do you understand? The example you posted is similar in a sense, but in your example you DO have a way to make some money, by checking and letting the guy bluff into your set.

    Here is the wiki definition of a negative freeroll

    Negative freeroll - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    Hope this helps. if not tell me why and I will try to be more clear
    Good example, know exactly what you are talking about now
    Reply
    Quote Post
    0
    Report User
    Quote Originally Posted by JamesD816:

    You have Ac6c and 5 million dollars in front of you .  Your opponent has 4.5 million in front of him and that is all the money either of you has in the world.   You have no idea what cards your opponent holds. He is a great player and the pot only has 5 thousand dollars in it as we go to the river. 

    The board reads   7c 8c 9c 3d 10c

    You had the nut flush and now catch the bottom end of the straight flush on the river.  A reverse freeroll would be if you bet your 5 million on the river. Why is this a reverse freeroll and a HORRIBLE bet?  Well there is only 1 card that can beat you. The Jack of clubs of course. The problem with your bet is there is NO CHANCE you get a call from your opponent unless he has that card. So you only get a call if you lose and will never get a call if you have the best hand.  Do you understand? The example you posted is similar in a sense, but in your example you DO have a way to make some money, by checking and letting the guy bluff into your set.

    Here is the wiki definition of a negative freeroll

    Negative freeroll - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    Hope this helps. if not tell me why and I will try to be more clear
    Good example, know exactly what you are talking about now
     
    JamesD816
    JamesD816
    Prospect
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Jan, 2013
    Posts: 65
    Posted: Jun. 17, 2013 - 7:50 PM ET #109

    Quote Originally Posted by Bling:



    Thanks for the reply.  In my example, I would bet to prevent him from going all-in on a bluff forcing me to fold.  Under the gun I would bet something I would be willing to lose (and make it seem like I am trying to get him to call), and if he re-raises I most likely fold because I am 90% sure my read was wrong and he made his hand.  If I do nothing, he knows I most likely don't have the flush or straight and may go all in to steal the pot, knowing I can only call if I made it.   

    What you are saying is you are making a blocker bet.  They are not terribly effective against good players but  against mediocre weak tight players they sometimes get you to a cheap showdown. If you have a good read on your opponent a blocker can sometimes work. Most of  the games I play in I have rarely seen the blocker used effectively. 

    Good article on blocker bets, lets hope I do the link right LOL

    10 More Essential Hold'em Moves: The Blocking Bet
    Reply
    Quote Post
    0
    Report User
    Quote Originally Posted by Bling:



    Thanks for the reply.  In my example, I would bet to prevent him from going all-in on a bluff forcing me to fold.  Under the gun I would bet something I would be willing to lose (and make it seem like I am trying to get him to call), and if he re-raises I most likely fold because I am 90% sure my read was wrong and he made his hand.  If I do nothing, he knows I most likely don't have the flush or straight and may go all in to steal the pot, knowing I can only call if I made it.   

    What you are saying is you are making a blocker bet.  They are not terribly effective against good players but  against mediocre weak tight players they sometimes get you to a cheap showdown. If you have a good read on your opponent a blocker can sometimes work. Most of  the games I play in I have rarely seen the blocker used effectively. 

    Good article on blocker bets, lets hope I do the link right LOL

    10 More Essential Hold'em Moves: The Blocking Bet
     
    Fortmax
    Fortmax
    Rookie
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Mar, 2011
    Posts: 757
    Posted: Jun. 17, 2013 - 8:09 PM ET #110

    Thank you James,its a big help for a newbie in the poker world like me.
    Reply
    Quote Post
    0
    Report User
    Thank you James,its a big help for a newbie in the poker world like me.
     
    BIGfnPOO
    BIGfnPOO
    MVP
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Jun, 2006
    Posts: 18880
    Posted: Jun. 20, 2013 - 7:43 PM ET #111

    there is no long run son it ends when u fold yr hand for the day. tomorrow is not promised. a game of luck.     2 =skill players buck heads  luck shall prevail.shhhhhh
    bigFnPOO
    Reply
    Quote Post
    0
    Report User
    there is no long run son it ends when u fold yr hand for the day. tomorrow is not promised. a game of luck.     2 =skill players buck heads  luck shall prevail.shhhhhh
     
    BIGfnPOO
    BIGfnPOO
    MVP
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Jun, 2006
    Posts: 18880
    Posted: Jun. 20, 2013 - 7:45 PM ET #112

    when i smll the blocker bet i crush u

    when i do the revrse blocker bet u r crizzushed
    bigFnPOO
    Reply
    Quote Post
    0
    Report User
    when i smll the blocker bet i crush u

    when i do the revrse blocker bet u r crizzushed
     
    BIGfnPOO
    BIGfnPOO
    MVP
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Jun, 2006
    Posts: 18880
    Posted: Jun. 20, 2013 - 7:46 PM ET #113

    strong like fkn bull
    bigFnPOO
    Reply
    Quote Post
    0
    Report User
    strong like fkn bull
     
    BIGfnPOO
    BIGfnPOO
    MVP
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Jun, 2006
    Posts: 18880
    Posted: Jun. 21, 2013 - 7:45 PM ET #114

    erick lindgren  strong like bull
    bigFnPOO
    Reply
    Quote Post
    0
    Report User
    erick lindgren  strong like bull
     
    Bling
    Bling
    Legend
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Sep, 2005
    Posts: 41476
    Posted: Jun. 23, 2013 - 12:00 PM ET #115

    Did a block bet successfully in a tournament yesterday.  If I didn't make it, the villain who was behind me would have surely made a bet to try to steal the pot. 
    Reply
    Quote Post
    0
    Report User
    Did a block bet successfully in a tournament yesterday.  If I didn't make it, the villain who was behind me would have surely made a bet to try to steal the pot. 
     
    Bling
    Bling
    Legend
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Sep, 2005
    Posts: 41476
    Posted: Jun. 23, 2013 - 12:01 PM ET #116

    Guy I made a blocker bet against said his name was Big Fucken Poo.   I thought it was a strange name, but then again I am in the South. 
    Reply
    Quote Post
    0
    Report User
    Guy I made a blocker bet against said his name was Big Fucken Poo.   I thought it was a strange name, but then again I am in the South. 
     
    BIGfnPOO
    BIGfnPOO
    MVP
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Jun, 2006
    Posts: 18880
    Posted: Jun. 23, 2013 - 9:22 PM ET #117

      u must rerz blocker bets
    bigFnPOO
    Reply
    Quote Post
    0
    Report User
      u must rerz blocker bets
     
    BIGfnPOO
    BIGfnPOO
    MVP
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Jun, 2006
    Posts: 18880
    Posted: Jun. 23, 2013 - 9:23 PM ET #118

    when a pro gd plyr rzs yr blkr bet  u must rerz  wif air
    bigFnPOO
    Reply
    Quote Post
    0
    Report User
    when a pro gd plyr rzs yr blkr bet  u must rerz  wif air
     
    seriously2013
    seriously2013
    Prospect
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Jul, 2013
    Posts: 5
    Posted: Jul. 16, 2013 - 12:30 PM ET #119

    Quote Originally Posted by scalabrine:


    .

    With regard to the 20% skill comment, it is completely ridiculous.

    In baseball there is skill in swinging the bat or throwing the ball
    In basketball there is skill in shooting the ball
    In hockey there is skill in shooting the puck.
     
    In poker there is ZERO skill in the cards you get to play.
    Imagine if every at bat I have a corked bat and you have a
    20 oz bat , the equivalent of AA vs 2/7....who would be the more successful hitter.
     
    In poker , you haven't any control over the cards you get OR the cards that are in play.....Your 2 cards an the community 5 cards are strictly the LUCK of the draw
     
    I would say if lottery scratchers have zero skill level I would place
    pokers skill level at about 5%...Over the long term you CANNOT win without good cards no matter how skilled your betting
     


    Reply
    Quote Post
    0
    Report User
    Quote Originally Posted by scalabrine:


    .

    With regard to the 20% skill comment, it is completely ridiculous.

    In baseball there is skill in swinging the bat or throwing the ball
    In basketball there is skill in shooting the ball
    In hockey there is skill in shooting the puck.
     
    In poker there is ZERO skill in the cards you get to play.
    Imagine if every at bat I have a corked bat and you have a
    20 oz bat , the equivalent of AA vs 2/7....who would be the more successful hitter.
     
    In poker , you haven't any control over the cards you get OR the cards that are in play.....Your 2 cards an the community 5 cards are strictly the LUCK of the draw
     
    I would say if lottery scratchers have zero skill level I would place
    pokers skill level at about 5%...Over the long term you CANNOT win without good cards no matter how skilled your betting
     


     
    seriously2013
    seriously2013
    Prospect
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Jul, 2013
    Posts: 5
    Posted: Jul. 16, 2013 - 12:35 PM ET #120

    Quote Originally Posted by scalabrine:


    Jimmy,

    Why in the hell would you believe this idiot.

    A) He comes in a thread and pulls the "Do you believe everything you hear?" as a counter to a 2+2 thread with some pretty compelling evidence that it is the actual Barry Greenstein. His evidence? There are people on google with the name Barry Greenstein and it could be one of them. 

    B) Then he claims Poker After Dark and High Stakes Poker was 'fixed' to the point where the deck was dealt in a certain manner to make for good TV.

    His evidence for that claim? Nothing...Not a single shred. Just his speculation...


    Uh, here's some news for you moron. The original PAD episodes were $20K buy-in sit-n-go's. That amount is NOTHING for top pros. They can easily lay that amount. 

    Is that good enough for Packers? Nope! Game MUST be fixed.

    The original HSP espisodes were 50K a seat. Some got up to 100K and top pros like Dwan brought up to 500K. 

    Again, the latter two amounts are NOTHING to top pros.

    Is that good enough for Packers? NOPE. The deck must be fixed as must the stake.

    The evidence? Nothing. Just his opinion.

    Beat it you joke. You've turned this thread on it's head...

     

    But your only evidence is YOUR opinion.......I guess you still believe full tilt was on the level.....

    The lowlifes in the poker world , I'm sorry , the poker "pros" would NEVER be involved in any chicanery.

    I've got a nice bridge for sale

     

    Reply
    Quote Post
    0
    Report User
    Quote Originally Posted by scalabrine:


    Jimmy,

    Why in the hell would you believe this idiot.

    A) He comes in a thread and pulls the "Do you believe everything you hear?" as a counter to a 2+2 thread with some pretty compelling evidence that it is the actual Barry Greenstein. His evidence? There are people on google with the name Barry Greenstein and it could be one of them. 

    B) Then he claims Poker After Dark and High Stakes Poker was 'fixed' to the point where the deck was dealt in a certain manner to make for good TV.

    His evidence for that claim? Nothing...Not a single shred. Just his speculation...


    Uh, here's some news for you moron. The original PAD episodes were $20K buy-in sit-n-go's. That amount is NOTHING for top pros. They can easily lay that amount. 

    Is that good enough for Packers? Nope! Game MUST be fixed.

    The original HSP espisodes were 50K a seat. Some got up to 100K and top pros like Dwan brought up to 500K. 

    Again, the latter two amounts are NOTHING to top pros.

    Is that good enough for Packers? NOPE. The deck must be fixed as must the stake.

    The evidence? Nothing. Just his opinion.

    Beat it you joke. You've turned this thread on it's head...

     

    But your only evidence is YOUR opinion.......I guess you still believe full tilt was on the level.....

    The lowlifes in the poker world , I'm sorry , the poker "pros" would NEVER be involved in any chicanery.

    I've got a nice bridge for sale

     

     
    seriously2013
    seriously2013
    Prospect
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Jul, 2013
    Posts: 5
    Posted: Jul. 16, 2013 - 12:43 PM ET #121

    Anyone who thinks that poker is predominantly a skill game is deluding themselves.........If I face Max Scherzer and had him throw 20 pitches I would hit none.........................If I played a poker "pro" Laak , Hellmuth, Ivey 20 heads up games , it would be a 45/55 result only because they play a bit more but if I was card live and they were card dead , I would win 99% of those because the cards , that you havent any control over determines the winner.......Again when you havent any control over the 2 cards you get and the 5 community cards...PARTICULARLY in the long run ...it is a game of luck....exactly the reason year after year , different young trust fund kids and different degenerate gamblers make up the final table

    In baseball there is skill in swinging the bat or throwing the ball
    In basketball there is skill in shooting the ball
    In hockey there is skill in shooting the puck.
    In poker there is ZERO skill in the cards you get to play.
    Imagine if every at bat I have a corked bat and you have a
    20 oz bat , the equivalent of AA vs 2/7....who would be the more successful hitter.

     
    Reply
    Quote Post
    0
    Report User
    Anyone who thinks that poker is predominantly a skill game is deluding themselves.........If I face Max Scherzer and had him throw 20 pitches I would hit none.........................If I played a poker "pro" Laak , Hellmuth, Ivey 20 heads up games , it would be a 45/55 result only because they play a bit more but if I was card live and they were card dead , I would win 99% of those because the cards , that you havent any control over determines the winner.......Again when you havent any control over the 2 cards you get and the 5 community cards...PARTICULARLY in the long run ...it is a game of luck....exactly the reason year after year , different young trust fund kids and different degenerate gamblers make up the final table

    In baseball there is skill in swinging the bat or throwing the ball
    In basketball there is skill in shooting the ball
    In hockey there is skill in shooting the puck.
    In poker there is ZERO skill in the cards you get to play.
    Imagine if every at bat I have a corked bat and you have a
    20 oz bat , the equivalent of AA vs 2/7....who would be the more successful hitter.

     
     
    earthWake
    earthWake
    Captain
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Sep, 2011
    Posts: 6196
    Posted: Jul. 16, 2013 - 6:15 PM ET #122

    Yeah you might win 7 or 8 of 20 heads up....but u would win about 250 of 2000
    Reply
    Quote Post
    0
    Report User
    Yeah you might win 7 or 8 of 20 heads up....but u would win about 250 of 2000
     
    TRAIN69
    TRAIN69
    Legend
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Oct, 2002
    Posts: 55601
    Posted: Jul. 16, 2013 - 7:30 PM ET #123

    Quote Originally Posted by seriously2013:

    Anyone who thinks that poker is predominantly a skill game is deluding themselves.........If I face Max Scherzer and had him throw 20 pitches I would hit none.........................If I played a poker "pro" Laak , Hellmuth, Ivey 20 heads up games , it would be a 45/55 result only because they play a bit more but if I was card live and they were card dead , I would win 99% of those because the cards , that you havent any control over determines the winner.......Again when you havent any control over the 2 cards you get and the 5 community cards...PARTICULARLY in the long run ...it is a game of luck....exactly the reason year after year , different young trust fund kids and different degenerate gamblers make up the final table

    In baseball there is skill in swinging the bat or throwing the ball
    In basketball there is skill in shooting the ball
    In hockey there is skill in shooting the puck.
    In poker there is ZERO skill in the cards you get to play.
    Imagine if every at bat I have a corked bat and you have a
    20 oz bat , the equivalent of AA vs 2/7....who would be the more successful hitter.

     

    So what you're saying is that its harder to play poker because you dont get to choose your "weapon". In baseball you get to pick your bat and you know exactly where the ball is coming from.....now lets see how good batters would be if the randomly got handed a bat of any length and/or weight and the there are 3 pitchers, one of which will be throwing the ball.....Baseball is a "god given" talent.....Poker is 1/2 & 1/2, the math and situations can be learned, but instinct is innate...

    The "skill" in poker isnt the cards you get to play, its how you play them.

    Come on people.

    Reply
    Quote Post
    0
    Report User
    Quote Originally Posted by seriously2013:

    Anyone who thinks that poker is predominantly a skill game is deluding themselves.........If I face Max Scherzer and had him throw 20 pitches I would hit none.........................If I played a poker "pro" Laak , Hellmuth, Ivey 20 heads up games , it would be a 45/55 result only because they play a bit more but if I was card live and they were card dead , I would win 99% of those because the cards , that you havent any control over determines the winner.......Again when you havent any control over the 2 cards you get and the 5 community cards...PARTICULARLY in the long run ...it is a game of luck....exactly the reason year after year , different young trust fund kids and different degenerate gamblers make up the final table

    In baseball there is skill in swinging the bat or throwing the ball
    In basketball there is skill in shooting the ball
    In hockey there is skill in shooting the puck.
    In poker there is ZERO skill in the cards you get to play.
    Imagine if every at bat I have a corked bat and you have a
    20 oz bat , the equivalent of AA vs 2/7....who would be the more successful hitter.

     

    So what you're saying is that its harder to play poker because you dont get to choose your "weapon". In baseball you get to pick your bat and you know exactly where the ball is coming from.....now lets see how good batters would be if the randomly got handed a bat of any length and/or weight and the there are 3 pitchers, one of which will be throwing the ball.....Baseball is a "god given" talent.....Poker is 1/2 & 1/2, the math and situations can be learned, but instinct is innate...

    The "skill" in poker isnt the cards you get to play, its how you play them.

    Come on people.

     
    vanzack
    vanzack
    Legend
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Nov, 2001
    Posts: 60107
    Posted: Jul. 17, 2013 - 10:25 AM ET #124

    I've read every word in this thread - and others....

    And still maintain that poker is a "threshold" skill, and that the vig eventually chews everyone up unless there are enough "guppies" in the water.

    2000-2006 = tons of guppies
    2006-2013 = not enough guppies

    Stay tuned...

    Support your local animal shelter. I am on twitter.
    Reply
    Quote Post
    0
    Report User

    I've read every word in this thread - and others....

    And still maintain that poker is a "threshold" skill, and that the vig eventually chews everyone up unless there are enough "guppies" in the water.

    2000-2006 = tons of guppies
    2006-2013 = not enough guppies

    Stay tuned...

     
     
    seriously2013
    seriously2013
    Prospect
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Jul, 2013
    Posts: 5
    Posted: Jul. 17, 2013 - 11:58 AM ET #125

    [Quote: Originally Posted by TRAIN69]

    So what you're saying is that its harder to play poker because you dont get to choose your "weapon". In baseball you get to pick your bat and you know exactly where the ball is coming from.....now lets see how good batters would be if the randomly got handed a bat of any length and/or weight and the there are 3 pitchers, one of which will be throwing the ball.....Baseball is a "god given" talent.....Poker is 1/2 & 1/2, the math and situations can be learned, but instinct is innate...

    The "skill" in poker isnt the cards you get to play, its how you play them.

    Come on people.

    EVERY other sport , for lack of a better term, the competitor controls the outcome direcvtly ( bat ,pitch ,pass ,run etc)

    Poker would be like swinging a bat blindfolded....

    Reply
    Quote Post
    0
    Report User
    [Quote: Originally Posted by TRAIN69]

    So what you're saying is that its harder to play poker because you dont get to choose your "weapon". In baseball you get to pick your bat and you know exactly where the ball is coming from.....now lets see how good batters would be if the randomly got handed a bat of any length and/or weight and the there are 3 pitchers, one of which will be throwing the ball.....Baseball is a "god given" talent.....Poker is 1/2 & 1/2, the math and situations can be learned, but instinct is innate...

    The "skill" in poker isnt the cards you get to play, its how you play them.

    Come on people.

    EVERY other sport , for lack of a better term, the competitor controls the outcome direcvtly ( bat ,pitch ,pass ,run etc)

    Poker would be like swinging a bat blindfolded....

    All Forums | Poker
    «First Previous 123 ... 567 Next Last»

    Hot Forums IconHot Forum Topics

    • 🤢🥴💩_ Fubah's risky baseball bets _🥶😲🥵 448,734 Covers arrow
    • Thursday 09/17/2026 737 Covers arrow
    • 🏈🏈🏈 Fubah2's risky CFB bets 257,884 Covers arrow
    • PART DEUX 185 Covers arrow
    • Couple Beers 5,118 Covers arrow
    • NFL LOCKED IN! 97,793 Covers arrow
    • DET@BUFF Under 55 Small Write up 3,202 Covers arrow
    • Week 3 Money 2,728 Covers arrow
    • DET/BILLS live in game comments welcome 701 Covers arrow
    • We have picked a terrible time to have the stupidest president ever 28,965 Covers arrow

    Warning - External Link

    Report User

    Thank you for reporting
    This content is abusive or harmful
    This post is spam
    An error has occurred
    This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.

    Delete Post

    Are you sure you would like to remove this post?

    Remove Thread

    Are you sure you would like to remove this thread?

    Scan Results

    Login/Register

    Happy to have you join the conversation. To do so, please login or create an account.
    Accounts are free and easy to create.

    Search


    Loading…

    Loading…

    About Us
    Contact Us
    Careers
    Our Team
    Brand
    Testimonials
    Betting Guides
    Sportsbook Reviews
    Betting News
    Podcasts
    Responsible Gambling
    Betting Sites
    US Betting Sites
    Canada Betting Sites
    Canada Casinos
    Best Betting Apps
    Contests
    Streak Survivor
    King of Covers
    Ultimate Race
    Office Pools
    The Covers community has
    810,221
    lifetime members worldwide
    Join our community today
    Covers 30 Years Logo Established in 1995,
    Covers is the world
    leader in sports
    betting information.
    21+
    Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER
    Help Privacy Terms of Service Cookies Sitemap Forum
    YouTube logo
    Facebook logo
    Twitter logo
    Instagram logo
    LinkedIn logo
    Google News logo
    Covers is verified safe by:
    Evalon Logo Logo GPWA Logo GDPR logo Logo GeoTrust logo Logo PCI DSS logo Logo
    Copyright © 1995 - 2026 CS Media Ltd. All Rights Reserved.
    If you choose to make use of any information on this website including online sports betting services from any websites that may be featured on this website, we strongly recommend that you carefully check your local laws before doing so.It is your sole responsibility to understand your local laws and observe them strictly.Covers does not provide any advice or guidance as to the legality of online sports betting or other online gambling activities within your jurisdiction and you are responsible for complying with laws that are applicable to you in your relevant locality.Covers disclaims all liability associated with your use of this website and use of any information contained on it.As a condition of using this website, you agree to hold the owner of this website harmless from any claims arising from your use of any services on any third party website that may be featured by Covers.