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2 of the worst beats in one hour I've ever had

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Posted: #26
Quote Originally Posted by badreligion:


thank god someone in here knows about poker, 

i had been raising the limper regardless of wheter he was utg or not, b/c he was call folding so many times

i was starting to think there was no one on covers who knew the first thing about poker

it was a situation based spot, as I had been doing the same exact raise with AA to garbage and folding to reraises, that time I took a shot with a bigger stack, and was ready to fold post flop

thank you for restoring some sanity, i really dont understand the logic in any of these poster threads

its so easy to dominate a game once you figure out players are only playing premium hands



I think the problem is that you are playing 1/2.

A move up to 2/5 would be beneficial (not much, but somewhat) as it is clear in a mere 7 posts you know more than most that play that game.

I can't tell you how many times I've constructed a super-tight image for the table, only to catch Kings on the button, raise, get 4 callers (including the big and small blind) and then get out-flopped (all the while being completely in the dark to the fact they are holding J4 off with a flop of J4Q). 

1/2 players rarely, if ever, care about YOUR image. They are too focused on their own.

A move up in stakes would remove some of the shit hands you detailed. More people at those tables are able to fold AA, and they do care about other's table image. 

All this being said, you want the AA call because you are a monster Fav. This is poker as you know. Just gotta ride it out and keep building your bankroll. 
 
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Posted: #27
"All this being said, you want the AA call because you are a monster Fav. This is poker as you know. Just gotta ride it out and keep building your bankroll."


 
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Posted: #28
Quote Originally Posted by scalabrine:

the commentary in these forums is an embarrassment...

OP, you played both hands perfectly obviously.

Anyone can scold you for playing 35 and losing to AA because you were beat pre-flop. 

But when you play it to the river and make him get all his money in without that last 4, you'll be hailed as genius.

Almost all of us know when nits and rocks are playing a big overpair.

Our entire strategy is to outflop them (which you did) and make them get all their money in when they are huge underdogs, or play scare cards (i.e. 4 to a straight or 4 to a flush) when you have air to bluff them off the big hand.

Apparently, some of these posters don't understand that is one of the simplest concepts in profitable poker. 


Thank god people are creative and play hands other than big pairs.

Playing and winning with a hand like 3/5 opens up the entire tables range and puts people on tilt. That's when the real money starts flying around.

A table of nits is the last table in the room you would ever want to sit at.

 

 

Scal this begs me to ask Are you honestly up or down on poker

 
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Posted: #29
Quote Originally Posted by Iw1nBets:

 

 

scal sounds like he would be up

 

you on the other hand seem like a weak tight fish that would get eaten alive at any real game

 

Scal this begs me to ask Are you honestly up or down on poker

 
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Posted: #30

1wn,

do you wake up and go straight to covers for 18 hours then go to sleep?

Im trying to figure out how you have so many useless posts in such a short period

 

When you figure out there is more to poker then over raising AA preflop and over shoving on the flop and hoping no one connected, then we can talk some poker..

 

But stay out of the big boy's thread, kiddie game is down the street

 
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Posted: #31
Quote Originally Posted by badreligion:

1wn,

do you wake up and go straight to covers for 18 hours then go to sleep?

Im trying to figure out how you have so many useless posts in such a short period

 

When you figure out there is more to poker then over raising AA preflop and over shoving on the flop and hoping no one connected, then we can talk some poker..

 

But stay out of the big boy's thread, kiddie game is down the street

 

 

yeah I know you played those hands flawlessly now that 1 person outta 6 agree with you

 
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Posted: #32
Quote Originally Posted by scalabrine:

the commentary in these forums is an embarrassment...

OP, you played both hands perfectly obviously.

Anyone can scold you for playing 35 and losing to AA because you were beat pre-flop. 

But when you play it to the river and make him get all his money in without that last 4, you'll be hailed as genius.

Almost all of us know when nits and rocks are playing a big overpair.

Our entire strategy is to outflop them (which you did) and make them get all their money in when they are huge underdogs, or play scare cards (i.e. 4 to a straight or 4 to a flush) when you have air to bluff them off the big hand.

Apparently, some of these posters don't understand that is one of the simplest concepts in profitable poker. 


Thank god people are creative and play hands other than big pairs.

Playing and winning with a hand like 3/5 opens up the entire tables range and puts people on tilt. That's when the real money starts flying around.

A table of nits is the last table in the room you would ever want to sit at.


No offense intended but I disagree with almost all of the above...

I don't believe OP played both hands perfectly based on the information he presented. I believe that "as played" he suffered some bad beats but the beat with 53s could have been avoided.

It's probably a mistake to interject hand analysis and poker theory into what is clearly a "bad beat" thread but the cats out of the bag so I'll run with it...

One gap suited connectors (53s, 75s, 42s, etc...) are losers. They can win big pots when they flop monsters but they lose a ton of small pots. Over 40k hands I've shown a small loss playing them (-0.07 BB/Hand). Just muck them...

I don't think that our entire strategy should be to play bad cards and "out flop" nits or bluff them when scare cards come. And I also don't believe that is "one of the simplest concepts in profitable poker".

Simpler (profitable) concepts are: playing good starting hands and building pots we are likely to win (while keeping the pots we are likely to lose small).

Raising an UTG limper w/ 53s is building a pot we are likely to lose. There is no way we have the best hand here... If UTG folds too much then we can exploit that mistake BUT we can find better spots than the one illustrated in the OP.


 
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Posted: #33
Quote Originally Posted by MrGlue:



No offense intended but I disagree with almost all of the above...

I don't believe OP played both hands perfectly based on the information he presented. I believe that "as played" he suffered some bad beats but the beat with 53s could have been avoided.

It's probably a mistake to interject hand analysis and poker theory into what is clearly a "bad beat" thread but the cats out of the bag so I'll run with it...

One gap suited connectors (53s, 75s, 42s, etc...) are losers. They can win big pots when they flop monsters but they lose a ton of small pots. Over 40k hands I've shown a small loss playing them (-0.07 BB/Hand). Just muck them...

I don't think that our entire strategy should be to play bad cards and "out flop" nits or bluff them when scare cards come. And I also don't believe that is "one of the simplest concepts in profitable poker".

Simpler (profitable) concepts are: playing good starting hands and building pots we are likely to win (while keeping the pots we are likely to lose small).

Raising an UTG limper w/ 53s is building a pot we are likely to lose. There is no way we have the best hand here... If UTG folds too much then we can exploit that mistake BUT we can find better spots than the one illustrated in the OP.



Although most of what you say is true, I disagree he shouldn't play 53s against a UTG limper. He knows he's behind any hand that calls his raise. From there out, he can play his hand like he has AA...or any hand for that matter. Of course your can to show a loss over the long term with such hands as you do. That does not mean he cannot play creatively. 

Plus he wasn't building any pot. He flopped the nuts. From that point on, he extracts money from his opponent in the most efficient way possible and eventually got him to shove. The only real hand his opponent can confidently call him with is a big pair, which is questionable call at that if these stacks were deeper. He could have easily been outflopped and was.

Just because he lost with gap suited connectors doesn't mean he played the hand incorrectly.

I like the aggressiveness with a hand no one could possibly put him on and I'll take him at his word he would have gotten away from the hand if he had air on the flop.

Simpler (profitable) concepts are: playing good starting hands and building pots we are likely to win (while keeping the pots we are likely to lose small). 

This is 100% correct. Unfortunately, when you sit at a table for 8 to 16 hours, people will quickly figure out after the first hour that that is your strategy. Then, your profits will only come when another premium hand is up against yours and you both hit the flop. Also, you could easily have KK and your opponent could have AA while you've spent the whole night sitting there like a rock only to get all the money in pre-flop (which wouldn't be incorrect actually). Changing gears is also one of the simpler concepts in poker and was exercised by the OP very well.
 
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Posted: #34
Quote Originally Posted by Iw1nBets:

 

 

Scal this begs me to ask Are you honestly up or down on poker


I would have given up the game a long time ago if it wasn't profitable.

Same with sports betting which is much more fun but much less profitable...
 
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Posted: #35
Quote Originally Posted by scalabrine:


I would have given up the game a long time ago if it wasn't profitable.

Same with sports betting which is much more fun but much less profitable...

 

Good points on both

 
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Posted: #36
Its all about timely aggression
 
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Posted: #37
Quote Originally Posted by scalabrine:


Although most of what you say is true, I disagree he shouldn't play 53s against a UTG limper. He knows he's behind any hand that calls his raise. From there out, he can play his hand like he has AA...or any hand for that matter. Of course your can to show a loss over the long term with such hands as you do. That does not mean he cannot play creatively. 

Plus he wasn't building any pot. He flopped the nuts. From that point on, he extracts money from his opponent in the most efficient way possible and eventually got him to shove. The only real hand his opponent can confidently call him with is a big pair, which is questionable call at that if these stacks were deeper. He could have easily been outflopped and was.

Just because he lost with gap suited connectors doesn't mean he played the hand incorrectly.

I like the aggressiveness with a hand no one could possibly put him on and I'll take him at his word he would have gotten away from the hand if he had air on the flop.

Simpler (profitable) concepts are: playing good starting hands and building pots we are likely to win (while keeping the pots we are likely to lose small). 

This is 100% correct. Unfortunately, when you sit at a table for 8 to 16 hours, people will quickly figure out after the first hour that that is your strategy. Then, your profits will only come when another premium hand is up against yours and you both hit the flop. Also, you could easily have KK and your opponent could have AA while you've spent the whole night sitting there like a rock only to get all the money in pre-flop (which wouldn't be incorrect actually). Changing gears is also one of the simpler concepts in poker and was exercised by the OP very well.


If we're raising UTG limpers w/ 53s then what hands are we NOT raising with? Are we raising with any 2 cards?

How is raising an UTG limper NOT building a pot? Isn't the pot larger after we raise?




 
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Posted: #38
all you need to know about online poker is that its all rigged, You can not win in the long run. Save your money!
 
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Posted: #39
Quote Originally Posted by MrGlue:



If we're raising UTG limpers w/ 53s then what hands are we NOT raising with? Are we raising with any 2 cards?

How is raising an UTG limper NOT building a pot? Isn't the pot larger after we raise?





He conceded he would get away from the hand if he didn't hit the flop. In his case, he hit the flop with 2nd nuts (which are actually the nuts because if your opponent is holding 5/8, anyone goes bust there). 

Just because he raised pre-flop doesn't mean he wasn't trying to steal. That's not 'pot building'. 

Also, when if he misses the flop, he simply releases the hand if the UTG leads out...Again, a pot has increased but it is not 'pot building' in the sense that you speak of.

And to your first question, YES in timely spots depending on your position and who limped, called, etc. 

I don't understand why you have an issue with a pre-flop raise on a limper while in position with 3/5. The hand doesn't even matter really. There is info that may not be disclosed by the OP about the limper that lead to the initial raise.






 
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Posted: #40
Quote Originally Posted by scalabrine:


He conceded he would get away from the hand if he didn't hit the flop. In his case, he hit the flop with 2nd nuts (which are actually the nuts because if your opponent is holding 5/8, anyone goes bust there). 

Just because he raised pre-flop doesn't mean he wasn't trying to steal. That's not 'pot building'. 

Also, when if he misses the flop, he simply releases the hand if the UTG leads out...Again, a pot has increased but it is not 'pot building' in the sense that you speak of.

And to your first question, YES in timely spots depending on your position and who limped, called, etc. 

I don't understand why you have an issue with a pre-flop raise on a limper while in position with 3/5. The hand doesn't even matter really. There is info that may not be disclosed by the OP about the limper that lead to the initial raise.








I don't have a problem w/ attacking limpers. Attacking limpers is profitable; assuming we play well post flop. However, I don't see how attacking limpers w/ any two (as a standard play) could be profitable long term. That means we would be raising 100% of the time facing a limper. Even bad players will pick up on that and we'll start losing fold equity (it may even affect our cbet success).

I do have a problem attacking an UTG limper w/ 2 gap suited connectors. What's he limping with? Is he going to fold that hand to a standard raise? I say, not very often...

So, we are going to see a flop, in a raised pot, w/ the worst hand, against a player who probably won't give us much action EVEN IF we hit a monster flop. Not to mention, he could have limped with AA or KK as a trap (not very often...) and he'll 4bet us into folding.

There are only 3 reasons to bet: to get a worse hand to call, a better hand to fold, or to pick up dead money. OP's pre-flop raise won't succeed in any of those three ways. UTG almost CAN'T call w/ worse OR fold w/ better. And that means there is no dead money to pick up...

OP may have had some crazy specific read on UTG that he didn't mention. That's why (as I mentioned earlier) I was hesitant about talking hand analysis or theory in this thread... BUT he didn't mention it... Hence my comment, "we probably shouldn't be raising UTG limpers w/ 53s" for reasons outlined above.




 
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Posted: #41
So, we are going to see a flop, in a raised pot, w/ the worst hand, against a player who probably won't give us much action EVEN IF we hit a monster flop. Not to mention, he could have limped with AA or KK as a trap (not very often...) and he'll 4bet us into folding.

There are only 3 reasons to bet: to get a worse hand to call, a better hand to fold, or to pick up dead money. OP's pre-flop raise won't succeed in any of those three ways. UTG almost CAN'T call w/ worse OR fold w/ better. And that means there is no dead money to pick up... 


Ok, I concede on those points... I reread the OP and you are correct, UTG pretty much can't fold there making you see a flop with the worst hand...Maybe if OP raised to 27 with a good read he could have pushed a hand inferior to <10 10 out of the pot and ended it there.
 
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Posted: #42
Interesting discussion... Attacking limpers is really profitable but it's also an advanced play that requires some specific conditions. I almost wonder if we should start another thread...

I would like to say, that it's important to remember, when we raise pre-flop with a hand like 53s we are bluffing. And, when we are bluffing we want our opponents to fold. So, we need to have some kind of fold equity... We aren't going to get that from most UTG limpers.

If we've got a guy who calls too much pre and folds too much post, we can plan on raising him pre and betting lots of flops. BUT, if we open up our range for this line to include 53s then we'll be taking this line WAY TOO OFTEN to be profitable. We need a standard range that we attack limpers with and I don't think 53s should be in that range.

We can play 53s but we need to:

1) Limp in after a cascade of limpers, hoping to hit a monster flop.

2) Raise from LP as a steal when it's folded to us.

3) Call a standard raise from a nit (who probably has a big pair) AND will stack with us when we flop monsters.





 
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Posted: #43
Glue/Scal - appreciate the discussion - 1st meaningful and respectful discussion in this forum in a while.
 
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Posted: #44
Quote Originally Posted by MrGlue:



We can play 53s but we need to:

1) Limp in after a cascade of limpers, hoping to hit a monster flop.

2) Raise from LP as a steal when it's folded to us.

3) Call a standard raise from a nit (who probably has a big pair) AND will stack with us when we flop monsters.






agree and again in my opinion its situational based and a lot of feel for the table from past hands and experiences is a great part of the current hand and future actions you take.
 
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Posted: #45
well,,, in conclusion,,, that was a waste of time,,, grrrr
 
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Posted: #46

sorry wrong thread,,, i don't know how that happened


Quote Originally Posted by K4ngur13:

well,,, in conclusion,,, that was a waste of time,,, grrrr

 
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Posted: #47
Quote Originally Posted by MrGlue:

Interesting discussion... Attacking limpers is really profitable but it's also an advanced play that requires some specific conditions. I almost wonder if we should start another thread...

I would like to say, that it's important to remember, when we raise pre-flop with a hand like 53s we are bluffing. And, when we are bluffing we want our opponents to fold. So, we need to have some kind of fold equity... We aren't going to get that from most UTG limpers.

If we've got a guy who calls too much pre and folds too much post, we can plan on raising him pre and betting lots of flops. BUT, if we open up our range for this line to include 53s then we'll be taking this line WAY TOO OFTEN to be profitable. We need a standard range that we attack limpers with and I don't think 53s should be in that range.

We can play 53s but we need to:

1) Limp in after a cascade of limpers, hoping to hit a monster flop.

2) Raise from LP as a steal when it's folded to us.

3) Call a standard raise from a nit (who probably has a big pair) AND will stack with us when we flop monsters.






here's my only problem with 1).

This is how limit games are played (especially low limit games like 2/4 3/6 but this play can happen at any limit).

If you limp with 3 5 suited hoping to catch a flop, you'll flop a straight less than 1% (say 100-1) of the time like OP did here. Odds on flopping 2 pair is about 1.3% (73-1) and odds of flopping 2 of 1 of the upaired cards for trips is about 2% (49-1). 

Now I would not want to flop a flush with those two cards for obvious reasons. People will be chasing one card higher flushes and could also have a higher flush on the flop already. You'll get felted in the process if you don't have the discipline to lay it down. Oh there's also the possibility of the other person flopping the higher straight as you have the sucker's straight with 3 5.

With those odds, at a nine man table, it appears that trying to flop a monster is not a profitable venture if you do it on a regular basis (which could happen at a very weak inexperienced 1-2 table where guys only want to see cheap flops and you put $2 in every time) you can easily bleed your stack this way... and you have the worst two cards of anyone limping most of the time.

Comments?
 
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Posted: #48
Quote Originally Posted by Jelax:

Glue/Scal - appreciate the discussion - 1st meaningful and respectful discussion in this forum in a while.
 
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Posted: #49
If you limp with 3 5 suited hoping to catch a flop, you'll flop a straight less than 1% (say 100-1) of the time like OP did here. Odds on flopping 2 pair is about 1.3% (73-1) and odds of flopping 2 of 1 of the upaired cards for trips is about 2% (49-1). 

SHOULD BE

Odds of flopping Trips is about 1.3% (73-1) and odds of flopping  2 pair  is about 2% (49-1). 
 
 
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Posted: #50
Quote Originally Posted by Jelax:

Glue/Scal - appreciate the discussion - 1st meaningful and respectful discussion in this forum in a while.



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