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    All Forums | General Discussion

    Who would you label a "choker" in sports?

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    HutchEmAll
    earthWake
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    HutchEmAll
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    Posted: May. 15, 2013 - 6:03 PM ET #26

    Quote Originally Posted by earthWake:


    in 2009, he hit over .365 in the playoffs, with 6 home runs, 18 RBIs and 15 runs...in 15 games. Not to mention he had clutch hit after clutch hit, some of them homeruns in the 9th when they were trailing. 

    ....You call that DECENT 

    We're not discussing level of suckiness......or greatness.....just weather they deserve the label.  

    I heard Yankee fan after Yankee fan rip his a$$ time and time and time again for failing in the playoffs.  Does that one year he came through in spades change all that?  That is the question.  
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    Quote Originally Posted by earthWake:


    in 2009, he hit over .365 in the playoffs, with 6 home runs, 18 RBIs and 15 runs...in 15 games. Not to mention he had clutch hit after clutch hit, some of them homeruns in the 9th when they were trailing. 

    ....You call that DECENT 

    We're not discussing level of suckiness......or greatness.....just weather they deserve the label.  

    I heard Yankee fan after Yankee fan rip his a$$ time and time and time again for failing in the playoffs.  Does that one year he came through in spades change all that?  That is the question.  
     
    earthWake
    earthWake
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    Posted: May. 15, 2013 - 6:13 PM ET #27

    Quote Originally Posted by HutchEmAll:


    We're not discussing level of suckiness......or greatness.....just weather they deserve the label.  

    I heard Yankee fan after Yankee fan rip his a$$ time and time and time again for failing in the playoffs.  Does that one year he came through in spades change all that?  That is the question.  

    To me personally yes. In my mind you could never be a choker if you win a ring and especially if you had a vital part in winning that ring. Obviously there are exceptions to this rule, but this situation isn't one of them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HutchEmAll:


    We're not discussing level of suckiness......or greatness.....just weather they deserve the label.  

    I heard Yankee fan after Yankee fan rip his a$$ time and time and time again for failing in the playoffs.  Does that one year he came through in spades change all that?  That is the question.  

    To me personally yes. In my mind you could never be a choker if you win a ring and especially if you had a vital part in winning that ring. Obviously there are exceptions to this rule, but this situation isn't one of them.
     
    mattbrot
    mattbrot
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    Posted: May. 15, 2013 - 6:14 PM ET #28

    Quote Originally Posted by earthWake:


    in 2009, he hit over .365 in the playoffs, with 6 home runs, 18 RBIs and 15 runs...in 15 games. Not to mention he had clutch hit after clutch hit, some of them homeruns in the 9th when they were trailing. 

    ....You call that DECENT 

    Ok so he was way bette rthan decent that year. But how about his career numbers with runners on base / in scoring position or in the playoffs?  

    I do not have an axe to grind with Rod. He is obviously a great player. Unfortunately he was also a cheater (but taht really does not bother me either). But there is no doubt that he has a reputation as a player who for the most part underperformed when it mattered most.
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    Quote Originally Posted by earthWake:


    in 2009, he hit over .365 in the playoffs, with 6 home runs, 18 RBIs and 15 runs...in 15 games. Not to mention he had clutch hit after clutch hit, some of them homeruns in the 9th when they were trailing. 

    ....You call that DECENT 

    Ok so he was way bette rthan decent that year. But how about his career numbers with runners on base / in scoring position or in the playoffs?  

    I do not have an axe to grind with Rod. He is obviously a great player. Unfortunately he was also a cheater (but taht really does not bother me either). But there is no doubt that he has a reputation as a player who for the most part underperformed when it mattered most.
     
    earthWake
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    Posted: May. 15, 2013 - 6:38 PM ET #29

    Quote Originally Posted by mattbrot:


    Ok so he was way bette rthan decent that year. But how about his career numbers with runners on base / in scoring position or in the playoffs?  

    I do not have an axe to grind with Rod. He is obviously a great player. Unfortunately he was also a cheater (but taht really does not bother me either). But there is no doubt that he has a reputation as a player who for the most part underperformed when it mattered most.

    Fair enough.

    I am a Yankees fan and not really fond of A-rod, but he absolutely killed the 2009 playoffs.

    I can think off the top of my head when he hit a tying home run in the 9th vs the twins, also hit a tying 9th inning homer vs the Angels, had a key 2 out, 2 run double in a tie game 4 vs the Phillies, and ofcourse that huge homer off the camera in game 3.

    That clutchess makes him not a choker, but a disappointment in the playoffs. 
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattbrot:


    Ok so he was way bette rthan decent that year. But how about his career numbers with runners on base / in scoring position or in the playoffs?  

    I do not have an axe to grind with Rod. He is obviously a great player. Unfortunately he was also a cheater (but taht really does not bother me either). But there is no doubt that he has a reputation as a player who for the most part underperformed when it mattered most.

    Fair enough.

    I am a Yankees fan and not really fond of A-rod, but he absolutely killed the 2009 playoffs.

    I can think off the top of my head when he hit a tying home run in the 9th vs the twins, also hit a tying 9th inning homer vs the Angels, had a key 2 out, 2 run double in a tie game 4 vs the Phillies, and ofcourse that huge homer off the camera in game 3.

    That clutchess makes him not a choker, but a disappointment in the playoffs. 
     
    mattbrot
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    Posted: May. 15, 2013 - 6:39 PM ET #30

    Quote Originally Posted by calabrinluvstran:

    Big red chokes us every night to help function.

    stupid.  get out of here with that nonsense, You must be an SEC fan. 
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    Quote Originally Posted by calabrinluvstran:

    Big red chokes us every night to help function.

    stupid.  get out of here with that nonsense, You must be an SEC fan. 
     
    mattbrot
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    Posted: May. 15, 2013 - 6:43 PM ET #31

    Quote Originally Posted by earthWake:


    Fair enough.

    I am a Yankees fan and not really fond of A-rod, but he absolutely killed the 2009 playoffs.

    I can think off the top of my head when he hit a tying home run in the 9th vs the twins, also hit a tying 9th inning homer vs the Angels, had a key 2 out, 2 run double in a tie game 4 vs the Phillies, and ofcourse that huge homer off the camera in game 3.

    That clutchess makes him not a choker, but a disappointment in the playoffs. 

    to be fair -- I do not actually know the numbers. I just know that I have heard it enough in the media that he is not necessarily clutch.

    I do not have time now but will lokk into it later tonight. Out of curiosity if nothing else
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    Quote Originally Posted by earthWake:


    Fair enough.

    I am a Yankees fan and not really fond of A-rod, but he absolutely killed the 2009 playoffs.

    I can think off the top of my head when he hit a tying home run in the 9th vs the twins, also hit a tying 9th inning homer vs the Angels, had a key 2 out, 2 run double in a tie game 4 vs the Phillies, and ofcourse that huge homer off the camera in game 3.

    That clutchess makes him not a choker, but a disappointment in the playoffs. 

    to be fair -- I do not actually know the numbers. I just know that I have heard it enough in the media that he is not necessarily clutch.

    I do not have time now but will lokk into it later tonight. Out of curiosity if nothing else
     
    lennon65
    lennon65
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    Posted: May. 15, 2013 - 7:21 PM ET #32

    myself.

     if you're a pro athelete there's no such thing as a choke. being a pro you've already made it to the show.

    i think ryne sandbergs' wife did alot of choking in the 80's and 90's  on his teamates c ocks. just ask dave martinez and rafael palmeiro


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    myself.

     if you're a pro athelete there's no such thing as a choke. being a pro you've already made it to the show.

    i think ryne sandbergs' wife did alot of choking in the 80's and 90's  on his teamates c ocks. just ask dave martinez and rafael palmeiro


     
    mattbrot
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    Posted: May. 15, 2013 - 7:32 PM ET #33

    Quote Originally Posted by lennon65:

    myself.

     if you're a pro athelete there's no such thing as a choke. being a pro you've already made it to the show.

    i think ryne sandbergs' wife did alot of choking in the 80's and 90's  on his teamates c ocks. just ask dave martinez and rafael palmeiro



     I hear you in the sense that everyone of these guys are LIGHT YEARS ahead of 99% of the population. But IMO the question is who is a "choker",, in other words who does not perform when it matter the most. You can be a great player, by historical standards, but always seem to underperform in the big moment and be a "choker". Conversly you can be a career .200 hitter and hit .250 in the playoffs or when runners are in scoring position and be considered clutch. 

    IMO the point is how do you perform relative to your "regular standards" when it matters the most.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lennon65:

    myself.

     if you're a pro athelete there's no such thing as a choke. being a pro you've already made it to the show.

    i think ryne sandbergs' wife did alot of choking in the 80's and 90's  on his teamates c ocks. just ask dave martinez and rafael palmeiro



     I hear you in the sense that everyone of these guys are LIGHT YEARS ahead of 99% of the population. But IMO the question is who is a "choker",, in other words who does not perform when it matter the most. You can be a great player, by historical standards, but always seem to underperform in the big moment and be a "choker". Conversly you can be a career .200 hitter and hit .250 in the playoffs or when runners are in scoring position and be considered clutch. 

    IMO the point is how do you perform relative to your "regular standards" when it matters the most.
     
    lennon65
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    Posted: May. 15, 2013 - 7:55 PM ET #34

    Quote Originally Posted by mattbrot:


     I hear you in the sense that everyone of these guys are LIGHT YEARS ahead of 99% of the population. But IMO the question is who is a "choker",, in other words who does not perform when it matter the most. You can be a great player, by historical standards, but always seem to underperform in the big moment and be a "choker". Conversly you can be a career .200 hitter and hit .250 in the playoffs or when runners are in scoring position and be considered clutch.

    .

    IMO the point is how do you perform relative to your "regular standards" when it matters the most.


    then imo it's john starks 1 for 18 from field in '94 game 7.


    Buckner would've never beaten mookie to the bag in time in '86.





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    Quote Originally Posted by mattbrot:


     I hear you in the sense that everyone of these guys are LIGHT YEARS ahead of 99% of the population. But IMO the question is who is a "choker",, in other words who does not perform when it matter the most. You can be a great player, by historical standards, but always seem to underperform in the big moment and be a "choker". Conversly you can be a career .200 hitter and hit .250 in the playoffs or when runners are in scoring position and be considered clutch.

    .

    IMO the point is how do you perform relative to your "regular standards" when it matters the most.


    then imo it's john starks 1 for 18 from field in '94 game 7.


    Buckner would've never beaten mookie to the bag in time in '86.





     
    TRAIN69
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    Posted: May. 15, 2013 - 7:56 PM ET #35

    Quote Originally Posted by ZiggyDawg:

    " The Mailman Don't Deliver on Sundays "

    almost forgot, Karl Malone.

    Not true. He simply had the bad fortune of playing when Jordan was also on the court....EVERYONE "choked" vs MJ

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiggyDawg:

    " The Mailman Don't Deliver on Sundays "

    almost forgot, Karl Malone.

    Not true. He simply had the bad fortune of playing when Jordan was also on the court....EVERYONE "choked" vs MJ

     

     
    bcnd33
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    Posted: May. 15, 2013 - 8:08 PM ET #36

    Jason Collins
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    Jason Collins
     
    TRAIN69
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    Posted: May. 15, 2013 - 8:09 PM ET #37

    Quote Originally Posted by bcnd33:

    Jason Collins

    I get it!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by bcnd33:

    Jason Collins

    I get it!!

     
    Getty3
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    Posted: May. 15, 2013 - 8:11 PM ET #38

    Quote Originally Posted by lennon65:



    then imo it's john starks 1 for 18 from field in '94 game 7.


    Buckner would've never beaten mookie to the bag in time in '86.





    The Red Sox would never have even been in the World Series if it weren't for the improbable Dave Henderson home run off Donnie Moore. Even still, the Angels needed to only take one of the last 2 games in Boston, but didn't.

    Meanwhile, Buckner's error didn't lose the Series or even the game. Sox reliever Bob Stanley (the second pitcher of the inning) threw a wild pitch on a 2 strike count to plate the tying run. Prior, Calvin Schiraldi allowed a 2 out, 2 strike single to Ray Knight to keep the inning alive.
     The Sox still had a chance to win the Series with a win in game 7 but blew a 3 run lead and failed to do so. 
    So many goats, chokers, and losers, but we only remember a select few.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lennon65:



    then imo it's john starks 1 for 18 from field in '94 game 7.


    Buckner would've never beaten mookie to the bag in time in '86.





    The Red Sox would never have even been in the World Series if it weren't for the improbable Dave Henderson home run off Donnie Moore. Even still, the Angels needed to only take one of the last 2 games in Boston, but didn't.

    Meanwhile, Buckner's error didn't lose the Series or even the game. Sox reliever Bob Stanley (the second pitcher of the inning) threw a wild pitch on a 2 strike count to plate the tying run. Prior, Calvin Schiraldi allowed a 2 out, 2 strike single to Ray Knight to keep the inning alive.
     The Sox still had a chance to win the Series with a win in game 7 but blew a 3 run lead and failed to do so. 
    So many goats, chokers, and losers, but we only remember a select few.
     
    lennon65
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    Posted: May. 15, 2013 - 8:26 PM ET #39

    Quote Originally Posted by Getty3:

    The Red Sox would never have even been in the World Series if it weren't for the improbable Dave Henderson home run off Donnie Moore. Even still, the Angels needed to only take one of the last 2 games in Boston, but didn't.

    Meanwhile, Buckner's error didn't lose the Series or even the game. Sox reliever Bob Stanley (the second pitcher of the inning) threw a wild pitch on a 2 strike count to plate the tying run. Prior, Calvin Schiraldi allowed a 2 out, 2 strike single to Ray Knight to keep the inning alive.
     The Sox still had a chance to win the Series with a win in game 7 but blew a 3 run lead and failed to do so. 
    So many goats, chokers, and losers, but we only remember a select few.


     i'm a met fan. i know the drill. why don't you ask dave martinez how rynes' wife loves the c ock? being that you're a rays fan
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    Quote Originally Posted by Getty3:

    The Red Sox would never have even been in the World Series if it weren't for the improbable Dave Henderson home run off Donnie Moore. Even still, the Angels needed to only take one of the last 2 games in Boston, but didn't.

    Meanwhile, Buckner's error didn't lose the Series or even the game. Sox reliever Bob Stanley (the second pitcher of the inning) threw a wild pitch on a 2 strike count to plate the tying run. Prior, Calvin Schiraldi allowed a 2 out, 2 strike single to Ray Knight to keep the inning alive.
     The Sox still had a chance to win the Series with a win in game 7 but blew a 3 run lead and failed to do so. 
    So many goats, chokers, and losers, but we only remember a select few.


     i'm a met fan. i know the drill. why don't you ask dave martinez how rynes' wife loves the c ock? being that you're a rays fan
     
    Getty3
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    Posted: May. 15, 2013 - 8:31 PM ET #40

    Quote Originally Posted by lennon65:



     i'm a met fan. i know the drill. why don't you ask dave martinez how rynes' wife loves the c ock? being that you're a rays fan
    I didn't even know about this horrible situation from the past. Dave apparently has a nice wife and 4 kids. I suppose people should be forgiven for their sins if they're sincere about it. 
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    Quote Originally Posted by lennon65:



     i'm a met fan. i know the drill. why don't you ask dave martinez how rynes' wife loves the c ock? being that you're a rays fan
    I didn't even know about this horrible situation from the past. Dave apparently has a nice wife and 4 kids. I suppose people should be forgiven for their sins if they're sincere about it. 
     
    searchwarrant
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    Posted: May. 15, 2013 - 8:39 PM ET #41

    Pablo Montoya.

    Give the moron 3 straight pole positions in consecutive starts in an any F1 race and he'll still finish 5th.

    No mas F1 Pablo.

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    Pablo Montoya.

    Give the moron 3 straight pole positions in consecutive starts in an any F1 race and he'll still finish 5th.

    No mas F1 Pablo.

     
    lennon65
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    Posted: May. 15, 2013 - 8:49 PM ET #42

    Quote Originally Posted by Getty3:

    I didn't even know about this horrible situation from the past. Dave apparently has a nice wife and 4 kids. I suppose people should be forgiven for their sins if they're sincere about it. 


     you can google it. been friends with davey since 1973. Brentwood LI
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    Quote Originally Posted by Getty3:

    I didn't even know about this horrible situation from the past. Dave apparently has a nice wife and 4 kids. I suppose people should be forgiven for their sins if they're sincere about it. 


     you can google it. been friends with davey since 1973. Brentwood LI
     
    DickTracy
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    Posted: May. 15, 2013 - 9:01 PM ET #43

    Whoever said Romo, I agree 100%. Can't get out of his own way in close/big games.
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    Whoever said Romo, I agree 100%. Can't get out of his own way in close/big games.
     
    TheGoldenGoose
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    Posted: May. 15, 2013 - 9:27 PM ET #44


    You can take Bill Buckner off this list.  The 86 Red Sox never make it to the Playoffs, never mind the World Series, without Buckner.  Day-in, day-out, all summer long, this guy taped his legs up four hours before game time and always gave 110%.  Absolutely no choker here.
    ~~~~~ZOSO~~~~~
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    You can take Bill Buckner off this list.  The 86 Red Sox never make it to the Playoffs, never mind the World Series, without Buckner.  Day-in, day-out, all summer long, this guy taped his legs up four hours before game time and always gave 110%.  Absolutely no choker here.
     
    BDUBB
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    Posted: May. 15, 2013 - 9:47 PM ET #45

    Byung Hyun Kim, almost single handedly cost us the only World Series we will ever win in my lifetime.
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    Byung Hyun Kim, almost single handedly cost us the only World Series we will ever win in my lifetime.
     
    mattbrot
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    Posted: May. 15, 2013 - 11:21 PM ET #46

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGoldenGoose:


    You can take Bill Buckner off this list.  The 86 Red Sox never make it to the Playoffs, never mind the World Series, without Buckner.  Day-in, day-out, all summer long, this guy taped his legs up four hours before game time and always gave 110%.  Absolutely no choker here.

    I agree. IMO when we talk about a "choker" there is a huge difference between a guy who had a one time "royal F up" (Buckner) vs a guy who has a history of underperforming in the clutch (Sergio).

      
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGoldenGoose:


    You can take Bill Buckner off this list.  The 86 Red Sox never make it to the Playoffs, never mind the World Series, without Buckner.  Day-in, day-out, all summer long, this guy taped his legs up four hours before game time and always gave 110%.  Absolutely no choker here.

    I agree. IMO when we talk about a "choker" there is a huge difference between a guy who had a one time "royal F up" (Buckner) vs a guy who has a history of underperforming in the clutch (Sergio).

      
     
    ZiggyDawg
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    Posted: May. 15, 2013 - 11:24 PM ET #47

    Karl Malone had the uncanny ability to brick freethrows when it mattered the most no matter how many chances he got. I remember watching him n saying to myself ...."oh darn this , why bother,  this sh1t's not goin in"  .... there's worse out there but man  alive he let Jordan n the Bulls off the hook a ton of times.
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    Karl Malone had the uncanny ability to brick freethrows when it mattered the most no matter how many chances he got. I remember watching him n saying to myself ...."oh darn this , why bother,  this sh1t's not goin in"  .... there's worse out there but man  alive he let Jordan n the Bulls off the hook a ton of times.
     
    mattbrot
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    Posted: May. 15, 2013 - 11:27 PM ET #48

    Quote Originally Posted by mattbrot:


    I agree. IMO when we talk about a "choker" there is a huge difference between a guy who had a one time "royal F up" (Buckner) vs a guy who has a history of underperforming in the clutch (Sergio).

      

    However, I can also see the argument that the error by Buckner was such a crucial and routine play that it can also be considered a major choke job.  
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattbrot:


    I agree. IMO when we talk about a "choker" there is a huge difference between a guy who had a one time "royal F up" (Buckner) vs a guy who has a history of underperforming in the clutch (Sergio).

      

    However, I can also see the argument that the error by Buckner was such a crucial and routine play that it can also be considered a major choke job.  
     
    bookieassassin
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    Posted: May. 16, 2013 - 1:42 AM ET #49

    Roberto Duran .....vs SR Leonard..........."no mas"

    '92 Oilers blowing 32 pt lead vs Buffalo (led by Frank Reich)

    Cowboy TE Jackie Smith dropping TD pass in SB Xlll or so.....costing Dallas the game and a few HOF berths too (probably)

    Chris Webber 'time' out '93 or so

    How bout Boise K Kyle Brotzman 2010.....shanking kick after kick vs Nevada.......
    It is better to be feared - than to be loved.
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    Roberto Duran .....vs SR Leonard..........."no mas"

    '92 Oilers blowing 32 pt lead vs Buffalo (led by Frank Reich)

    Cowboy TE Jackie Smith dropping TD pass in SB Xlll or so.....costing Dallas the game and a few HOF berths too (probably)

    Chris Webber 'time' out '93 or so

    How bout Boise K Kyle Brotzman 2010.....shanking kick after kick vs Nevada.......
     
     
    TheGoldenGoose
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    Posted: May. 16, 2013 - 2:31 AM ET #50

    Quote Originally Posted by bookieassassin:

    Roberto Duran .....vs SR Leonard..........."no mas"

    '92 Oilers blowing 32 pt lead vs Buffalo (led by Frank Reich)

    Cowboy TE Jackie Smith dropping TD pass in SB Xlll or so.....costing Dallas the game and a few HOF berths too (probably)

    Chris Webber 'time' out '93 or so

    How bout Boise K Kyle Brotzman 2010.....shanking kick after kick vs Nevada.......



    I had $300 on Buffalo that game.

    Ended up with the best push of my gambling career.  
    ~~~~~ZOSO~~~~~
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    Quote Originally Posted by bookieassassin:

    Roberto Duran .....vs SR Leonard..........."no mas"

    '92 Oilers blowing 32 pt lead vs Buffalo (led by Frank Reich)

    Cowboy TE Jackie Smith dropping TD pass in SB Xlll or so.....costing Dallas the game and a few HOF berths too (probably)

    Chris Webber 'time' out '93 or so

    How bout Boise K Kyle Brotzman 2010.....shanking kick after kick vs Nevada.......



    I had $300 on Buffalo that game.

    Ended up with the best push of my gambling career.  
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