Trump Tariffs

@Raiders22

 Well I can tell you that knowing someone who works for one of the largest H1 corps in this country AND having friends and neighbors who work for or worked for Infosys who is a massive H1 corp I know for a fact that every single H1 candidate I met were paid lesser wages, but the H1 corp charged MORE than the candidate got and they kept the balance for profit and gain. I have neighbors who are in the biotech field who got their start with a H1 corp, I know multiple people from India who got the same start, they all were paid under market rates in RETURN for the promise of a GC and the opportunity to stay here and make a better living than in China and India. The demand to get out of India is enormous, I spent hundreds of hours over the years listening to stories about the stress and angst of getting out of India and the way they did it...AND for every 1 that got through the arduous process of getting into those secondary schools and THEN got into the scam H1 queue there were THOUSANDS who did not. The reason why you think and it is not accurate that the "test" scores are higher for those people is that THOSE people are who made it through to that point not the average citizen and those seeking to get through. You are comparing the 1 in 10,000 Chinese or India tech worker to the 1 US student it is a completely inaccurate comparison.

There is a dearth in many segments of the job market including skilled nurses but that does not mean we allow corps to cheat and steal and fraudulently bring in foreign workers versus investing in our OWN infrastructure and develop the talent that exists here. I would say completely eliminate the H1 program and build our own future based on US students not allowing foreign/us corps to cheat and steal the middle class from us using the concept of a lack of workers. My friend says thats a scam that this company specifically laid off US workers and replaced them with H1 contract workers because of cost and ease that they were not doing the HR aspect and cost of having employees that there were others who were doing the tasks and corps downsized then filled with contract workers to save money.

Find solutions domestically and not a solution that diverts profits to corps again and keeps the money in the pockets of US workers. If we want more US students in tech programs then forward that as they do down here at ASU...corps here fund the engineer program and the business program and several corps are involved in teaching and developing students and give them internship opportunities that lead to employment.

I know much more about this but I will not go into detail as it might disclose my persona situation and no way am I going to do that here.

@wallstreetcappers

 I do not think they are bringing them in 'fraudulently'.  This is a legal process.

But, again, that is the same mindset that does want to allow others in fraudulently.  

I think there has been some progress to overcome the scarcity of workers -- but the demand is simply outgrowing it.

If you were to decide to do away with the visas it seriously limits your competitiveness.  If you 'force' companies to hire under-qualified workers it only hurts everyone -- the workers, the companies, the economy, and the country.

I do not see a solid way to get to hiring local-only and hiring the best skill at the same time.  The supply is not growing with the ever-growing demand.

It is not as easy as it would be to pick crops, or something like that, because of the lack of education, training, and skill needed.

It is not an easy thing to solve.

I do not think you can go to the extreme on either end.

Again, a balance has to be met I think.

@wallstreetcappers

 The reason why you think and it is not accurate that the "test" scores are higher for those people is that THOSE people are who made it through to that point not the average citizen and those seeking to get through. You are comparing the 1 in 10,000 Chinese or India tech worker to the 1 US student it is a completely inaccurate comparison.

I am not sure what you mean by this.  This is not opinion.  This is just fact.  These are open competitions.  The tests and the results are what they are.  You even see this with the students at the universities comparatively speaking and where they are from.

@wallstreetcappers

 Find solutions domestically and not a solution that diverts profits to corps again and keeps the money in the pockets of US workers.

They have tried very many.  What other suggestions would you have for them?  You cannot go to the old East German or Soviet way of doing things and force students in the direction you think they are best suited for.

And as always, businesses are in the business to make a profit not just to provide a good or service.  You cannot 'force' them to be less competitive and not expect them to go out of business -- or simply provide an inferior product or service.

That is why the old adage of 'buy American' does not always work.

The "facts" are not accurate that is the point. The comparison grouping is not of the student base of ALL students in India because that is impossible they do not keep math scores for the millions of kids that are in school. You cannot compare a group that the scores are complete, accurate, measured and very detailed to the school system in a third world country like India. It is like how clowns down here say that the math scores of kids in the Basis system are better than those in the local community schools, that comparison is ridiculous and completely inaccurate in so many levels.

You wont do this but if you really want to find out then dig a bit more into how the school systems function in India, they are a disaster and the fight to exit the poverty of India means that parents will pay bribes to get their kids into the school track that gives them opportunity to get out, only a slim fraction of students are able to progress  to a secondary level and that is where the opportunities exist to exit India and go scheme off the US or Europe, most do not make it even to a secondary level (that is like middle school here) and most if they do not get to that level just stop and work for a horrible living there locally, the only real hope to get out is to make that top top top 3-5% that move on to the kind of school that they can have a future and maybe go to university and then get to the US via the HB scheme here. I know what I am saying as I know many parents and families who fought that battle and are lucky to have made that slim percentage where they could even consider more than living in India.

@wallstreetcappers

 The "facts" are not accurate that is the point.

No matter how you do it this works out the same.  Take the top 10%.  The graduating class.  The open competitions.

Simply pick another country if you do not think India does their scores accurate enough for you. 

Compare China, Singapore, etc. to the USA.  The USA is well documented to be behind in educating students.

I do not know what 'facts' you are using that would show otherwise.  Any metric and any subsets shows it to be true.

@wallstreetcappers

 I have been to India many, many times.  Including the very desolate and poverty-ridden areas.

I also have seen the extreme pressure put on kids in the upper castes to succeed.  But with a country of over 1B people you will have a larger amount poor and uneducated people.  

That is not the point.  The point is the ones that are getting educated are getting a better education than the USA students are.  Thus, they are more prepared for the STEM jobs.  I am not comparing West Virginia to poor parts of Goa.  I am comparing the 'educated' to the 'educated'.

That is simply the way it is.

The issue is how does the USA go about fixing it.

@wallstreetcappers

 parents will pay bribes to get their kids into the school track that gives them opportunity

This happens even in the USA.  I think we found that even the richer the folks are the more they want their kids to succeed and they will do all they can to help them.  Even actresses do this apparently.

It is the Dominican of baseball example for education.  Good parents want their kids to succeed.  I can argue that the downfall of this in the USA is a direct path from the lack of emphasis in lots of homes from broken families or simply complacent from an easy life, or even disillusion.  Other countries still continue to place a heavy emphasis on it.

@Raiders22

wsc   

@Raiders22

 You cannot compare data that is inaccurate and then call it facts, that is a flat out dishonest statement. You cannot take the top 10% when you cannot collect the data in India to know what the 10% is and why would you generalize education systems in countries that are not the same? Take ALL of the data not some meaningless unsubstantiated number and then try to correlate a narrative. Where did you come up with 10% anyway? Is this a way for you to shift from the original comment you made about them vs the US? They do not even have the data you are suggesting in a comprehensive fashion. India MIGHT collect data when it serves a narrative but it is not accurate because so few get through the gates to even be in the pool of data. In the US more students enter high school relative to the general population than students do in India. 

School systems are so starkly different I have no idea why you made the original comment, its similar to comparing Basis results down here versus public schools. You correlate a set of data where the parameters are not the same...students that get to secondary level are not comparable to US students in high school and you should know better than this. Why disparage US students by taking fake liberties in formulating conclusions, why not go the full distance and say that students who drop out of high school in the US are less intelligent than university students in India, you are saying the exact same thing...using false data against a different unrelated data set to make a conclusion. It is just weak and inaccurate. I would suggest that graduates from Indian universities are less prepared for the workforce in the US than US students who graduate from US universities. THIS I know for a fact, their university system is incomplete and narrow focused.

@Raiders22

 Don't even waste your time.

@wallstreetcappers

 You are concentrating solely on India.  They are coming mainly in the IT sector and they do very well in that sector.  But it absolutely is fair to compare the top educated to the top educated in each country.  That is supposedly the elite of each country.  This is not data released by India but data collected by independent sources.  Just as any competition.  Do you send your average person to the Olympics or your country's best in each event.  This is the same with the STEM contests and tests, etc.

The competitions and tests are open.

But even if you do not trust India, look at any other country in the STEM fields.  

Singapore, China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Japan, South Korea -- they lead the PISA.  Then you start to have some of the European countries.

The USA is all the way down around 35th place.  

That is not 'inaccurate data'.  This is JUST data.

Of course school systems are starkly different.  But that does not have anything at all to do with it.  How you educate is only reinforced by how well you apply yourself.

The USA system has not changed as much as it is education is not emphasized and the level has been drastically dropped over the years.  So, the kids have been by passed by other countries for those reasons.  There is no ROI or bang for your buck considering all of the money the USA spends.  You can see this in the yearly standardized tests from years ago.  Or even the old primers and texts.

If you feel the school systems need to change to get kids more prepared for STEM jobs, or education in general, why not do it.  What would you do differently that these high-paid administrators have not already tried.

It does not matter at what level you do the sampling the results are the same.  It is as much apples to apples as you can get.

You can make all manner of excuses for the USA students but the education is lacking.

It is not a matter of them being 'less intelligent'; it is a matter of them being 'less educated'.  Therefore, they are less prepared to get jobs in the STEM fields.

Just because someone drops out of school does not make them 'unintelligent' -- but it does usually make them 'less-educated'.

Sure, they may have the capability to learn the STEM fields.  But they did not and these other countries students did.

That is the bottom-line and the question is how to fix it.  I am sure there are students that can learn them.  But they do not want to or are not encouraged to.

That, in and of itself, is not a problem.  If a kid simply wants to be a carpenter, he should be allowed to do that and be happy.

But when a company, and country, need a supply of well-prepared STEM employees/students they have to look beyond the USA currently.

By the way, this is not just in the STEM fields.  They did a study a few years back on the level of Presidential Inauguration speeches.  Early presidents were at a grade level 21 or so, doctorate-level.  Washington at 21 grade level. Lincoln was around 16th grade level. Then I think Wilson was the last speech around that level.  FDR 11th grade level.  Clinton 8th grade level.  But they have dropped way off and the last several President's Inauguration speeches have been around the 5th grade level.  

So, it is even the reading and writing education level in the USA that has dropped drastically.

Gradual decline in all basic education.  So, of course the advanced education and new fields are going to struggle if other countries are beating you at the basics to start with.

@StumpTownStu

It is just a weird situation.  I have known many, many folks that come over on these visas and are top-tier.

But the same folks that got upset with Trump for trying to curtail them the first time also want folks to come do the lower jobs for them.

Now Trump wants to make folks pay a lot more for them and people are unhappy about that also.

People want cheap labor when it suits them.  Because they do not want to do the hard labor work.

But they also do not want people taking the better jobs from them because they are too lazy to get educated and trained in the jobs.  They want to be given the jobs when they are not really truly qualified for them.

So, on one hand they support cheap illegal workers but on the other hand do not support highly-skilled legal workers.

But for years we have had legal work programs for both.  

I assure you that if these visa workers came over and were not effective the companies would stop using them.  

To make it seem like it is for cheap labor is simply a weak attempt to justify the lack of STEM-educated and trained folks.

But as those fields grow everyone cannot do those jobs.  The other jobs need to be done as well.  If everyone went into STEM you would need a program to import plumbers, etc.

@wallstreetcappers

 accurate and applicable data should b the goal    but often so called facts r manipulated

@Raiders22

 Sorry who are you talking to in this rely? Are you addressing my comments or have you wandered into a completely unrelated and off topic generality? You addressed me and made comments which were very inaccurate, I addressed them pointing out the inaccuracies then you keep changing the narrative and claiming false facts then shift yet again to something completely unrelated and of no value to the original content that YOU started.

If you want to have a discussion and you want to try and call me out you have to stick to YOUR content and YOUR statements when someone replies to them. When you throw out the India is better suited in math than the US be prepared to defend the claim, you did not and instead shifted the message to TRY and better fit your claim, then I addressed the audacity and inaccuracies to give proper context and you  then start talking about me wanting US students to be more STEM prepared.

Are you just having a conversation with yourself because you pretty much addressed nothing of my reply which was a DIRECT retort of your false claims to try and minimize my comments. You cannot even try and compare the education systems in the US and India as you did and you cannot claim some figure like India scores better in math and call it fact then refuse to back your claim and have me discredit these strange inaccurate conclusions you falsely made.

@wallstreetcappers

 Not wandering around.  You are doing that as you usually do.

This is what you stated:

There are more than enough US workers especially when there is motivation for opportunity with good paying jobs, this myth of a lack of specialized workers is a scam.

It is totally incorrect.  That is why they are going to other countries to get workers and students.

Many reasons for this:  USA students are not going into STEM enough, the jobs are outgrowing the supply even if more go into the fields, other countries top students are taking advantage of the demand.

You brought up India because of your personal experience.  

I simply pointed out that their supply is mainly in the IT sector and that is a huge demand.

Think about where all of the innovations and creativity is coming from: the USA.  This is a hugely growing sector and they need more and more workers and creators.  The USA simply does not have enough folks going into this.

They have some of, if not the, very best institutions for education in these areas.  But the USA students are not taking advantage of them for various reasons.  As I pointed out one of the main reasons given is that the fields are too hard.

The reason they are too hard is that the basic education level has deteriorated over the years.  I gave you examples of this.  So, therefore the elite students from other countries are able to supply the extra demand in an ever-growing field.

So, you are the one that keeps changing the narrative and wandering off topic.

I was addressing your issue with using foreign workers and that there is a legitimate demand.

The side issues simply tie into why this is the case and is necessary.  Whether you agree with Trump curtailing the visas the first time around or rains the fees this time around are simply side issues.

But isolated personal experience and anecdotal examples cannot outweigh true facts, data, and raw numbers just because you do not agree with the premise. You have to provide real data to support your claim that everyone acknowledges is not true.

So, once again, your presupposition for your whole original diatribe is flat-out wrong.

@wallstreetcappers

 I am not clear why you are tying India strictly to math classes.  I did not say that or even imply that.  I pointed out they are supplying the IT sector for a reason:  they key in on it and take advantage of the demand and opportunity.

But as far as math goes, it is well accepted that the USA lags behind many other countries, especially the various Asian countries I mentioned.

I am not sure TIMMS even incudes India in their research because it is not even considered a developed country in education.  The better evaluation would be as I mentioned peer-to-peer where they apparently do outperform in math as well as other subjects.

But as the meme that went around a while back when the USA finally got a medal in the math competition and they showed a group photo:  all of the students were Asian-American students on the math team.

So, if you want to say some of the research firms are not doing a good job and their numbers are not 'accurate' because it does not support your narrative, I am not sure what to tell you.

If you do not use empirical data to support your stances, then all you have left to stand on is simple emotion and what you like to think.

The numbers are what they are -- and, I guess the feelings are what they are in this case.

Just because the jobs are being filled and there 'appears' to be no 'lack of supply' as some folks claim does not mean at its heart it is not true.

For example, there are plenty of people that do a job for 30 years and are not very good at it.  Just because someone does a job does not mean they are elite-level.

So growing companies that need elite-level folks will have to go outside the USA to completely fill the need until more elite students get into the fields.

We will simply have to disagree on the demand for STEM folks.

I looked because I was curious:

https://www.americanexperiment.org/u-s-math-scores-decline-dramatically-on-international-test/

Apparently India has not participated in PISA since 2009 and so there is no TIMMS data on them.

So it stands to reason that this statement is more than likely true:

What we can reasonably infer

• Given the performance of the “Asian American” subgroup, and especially the overrepresentation of Indian-heritage students in top competition mathematics, it's likely that many Indian students in the U.S. on average perform at or above the U.S. national average in math — especially among higher performing schools or in contexts where there is academic support.
• Among the highest achieving students, Indian Americans likely have a strong advantage (in terms of math performance) relative to the average U.S. student.

So, it stands to reason that the students that concentrate on math will perform better in India than the ones that do in the USA as well.  

But it does not take away from their IT concentration.  They, as I said before, are also a country of over 1B now.  That in itself will provide outliers of course.

But no one doubts that the USA in itself has dropped down the list in math performance and reading/writing performance.  

So, it is not surprise that they would struggle to fill STEM area with elite folks.

@Raiders22

 I responded to your messages to me, no wander no elaboration. I still stand by what I said regarding the H1 visas given to IT firms and I base it off my experience knowing people IN the industry, working FOR companies in the industry, originating FROM the countries that supply the fake supply people actually doing the work and having actual experience not something I read on a website.

My experience and those I spoke with are that the narrative of supply is false it is fake so the company can create a fake need that prior to these firms scheming there was US employees doing the work and still do the work. My friend who is employed by the firm and told me directly that the US company intentionally did a RIF/reorg to remove US workers and replace them with contract sourced people from his IT firm. The work was being done by US workers but the expense of those workers is greater and the only factor was cost, nothing else. I also still say that the skills that these people bring are not what the firm suggests, they come from a narrow focused program based skill set with little actual client based experience. Out of all the people I spent time talking to I do not think a single one had a university education IN the IT field, one friend was a civil engineer working on building government offices and transitioned, another got a degree in naval ship fabrication and transitioned, another had a general degree. India does not have at a university level the specialized IT infrstructure for education that say the ASU system has. What they do is take university graduates and students and train them on software programs and get them designations from programs required by clients then have these people participate in the ecosystem where they learn from observation and from upcoaching not from actually working for clients like you would need here. 

I even had friends who told me straight out they lied on their resume to get the opportunity, they lied in the university degree they had, they lied and filled out the H1 application which requires certain specific experience to qualify, they lied to get the H1 designation that was FASTER in approval. I had another friend who did not lie and came over on a different H1 queue and it took him EIGHT years to pass through the visa queue where the friend who lied got through in ONE year.

I am saying the entire IT H1 visa enterprise is a scam and that it profits the US corps and the H1 corps and it costs the US worker, that is my contention and I base it off actual discussion with people in the industry now today.

The education stuff you forwarded I already commented on, you extrapolate data and what you call facts in an erroneous fashion using false data sets like saying India students score higher in math and that it is a FACT...but you use false data and comparisons so your facts are faulty and not accurate. My original reply going way back was about the fake narrative about H1 visas, you stepped in and here we are a long distance away from the original point because you tried to disprove my contention by using false data and blindly supporting what the H1 corps tell you that there is a need for their services. Well duh what do you think a H1 corp who makes billions in profits is going to say, that they are scamming the US government??? lol yeah they are going to generate a fake pretense and narrative to validate their enterprise.

Cool.  I just am not sure how an isolated example or two in a local area offsets what the overall industry is saying.

If it was all about money and not skill it would be easy to demonstrate.  So, I have to go with the overwhelming data.  I also think the future will demonstrate this even more if something is not done soon.

It doesn't matter if you're discarded because you're inferior or more expensive than the foreign workforce. Businesses aren't in this world to provide work opportunities; they're seeking the highest net profit. If you don't justify the difference in hourly wages (through skills), they shouldn't hire you.

@Raiders22

 Data can be created by the source to fit a narrative, much like you tried with the India student vs the US student...take data and arrange it to fit what you want to accomplish, I am taking my discussions and interaction with PEOPLE not a website, with IT people who came from India and work in the IT industry...many started when there was no IT H1 firms, one came from India to work for Arthur Anderson as a consultant, he hated the grind and decided to change fields and went into SAP consulting after working for a few IT India firms here but he was here already when the visa approval process was fast and easier. He refuses to work for say Infosys because they will bill the client say 200 bucks an hour and pay him 60 bucks an hour where as his own company he can bill a client 120 an hour direct. Another left an Infosys style H1 firm making 45k a year while he got his H1 approval (based on fraud btw) and left to work for a larger firm on the east coast making over 100k. I knew of several Indian men who started their own consulting firms and hired cheap India based labor and did the legwork themselves being client facing and the time difference but taking in the 100% markup and paying the India based IT flunkie local wages, they had say 5-10 under them and that is how they made a living.

Its a scam period...its fake demand dearth to generate profits for them and to save on US labor costs, much like offshoring cust service agents.

@wallstreetcappers

  Data can be created by the source to fit a narrative

Ok? Got any?