@Raiders22
I was quoting a WSC'ers comment in one of his long winded diatribes......
Post #14
Quote Originally Posted by Wallstreetcappers
"Even if there was a need for a RIF in the government there is a classy, professional, respectful way of handling a RIF and then there is what Musk does which is parade around trashing others in an unkind and unnecessary way."
@Raiders22
The reply you made does not address the contention or the real issues, it is not about a RIF existing or being necessary and yet you harp on this as a justification for how he is operating and the crude unprofessional way he is conducting himself. Hold him to a high standard and expect him to treat everyone with the highest level of respect and consideration, do not minimize or justify his petty and UNKIND approach. I knew this about him years ago from how he treated/treats Tesla employees and my opinion of him has not been modified or changed, to me all that is being shown is what those aware of him already knew..the guy is a classless jerk and does not know how to be a leader and a high quality executive or in this case government wrecker.
You will never see me justify the poor way of decision making off the reality of the flaws you mentioned. Everyone knows that the DMV is difficult that the wait time for government aid is slow that airport security delays are lousy..not sure why you even bring this up because the solution is not just to blindly wreck an agency because it has areas of improvement. This will not make the government lines less and in fact it will make it worse, now there are fewer people staffing the phones and the offices, the lines for getting through national parks will continue to be horrible, the needs of the citizen will be less taken care of and the financial impact of these cuts are so miniscule it will not make an impact. The real meat on the bones is the lobby protected groups like defense contractors, like the corn scam and farm aid scams, like the solar and EV industries, there is much more meat on the bones with the targets which will not be taken to task because the money and players representing them will not allow it.
Corps have RIFs all the time, the difference between a RIF that is done after evaluation, consideration, buy-in from the groups effected and time spent doing proper research and THEN being respectful and thoughtful versus a petty email dismissal is the difference between the quality of the character of the individual performing the task. Musk is a buzz saw attention seeking clown who is looking to make noise and be seen. If the objective is to efficiently, quietly make an impact he is the LAST person who should be in any position of responsibility...if not Musk, ANYONE with the attention span and ability to do the proper task with the proper consideration and respect.
@wallstreetcappers
I have not ‘harped’ on anything or ‘justified’ what he is doing.
I simply pointed out that the Left is upset about it.
I do not care how he does it.
My questions are still the same to you.
What says he is ultra-conservative?
What exactly did he do to those individuals that are torching things?
All of the rest of the conversation you kept adding in to swerve those two questions.
This is bellyaching by you about a CEO. You do not like any of them. You think they are all bad.
How would you ‘kindly’ tell them they are a waste and inefficient and let them go? What CEO does this in a way that you agree with?
So what if he is direct and has high expectations from employees? That is his right. If someone wants a cushy job where they can be idle — they can go work for the government.
I brought the examples up because it is not that way everywhere.
I can promise you if you go to any company and fire 10-20% have the folks for not working — the rest will go right to work. I have seen it done too often. I am not sure you can be ‘kind’ about it or even need to be. They have milking your company, or in this case the taxpayer, for years.
How kind should that type of person be treated.
Again, answer that question along with the initial two that you brought up but have not directly answered.
I am not questioning the other ‘scams’ you mention — fix those as well.
Why should they start with what you want them to start with. Just fix it all.
Correct. As I said the other option is too slow and would not get it done.
Like I said, Hacksaw Jack had it right — and it worked.
Now others have taken to doing it his way. Musk is no different.
Can you imagine how long it would take the entire government to start up an evaluation system and decide how to proceed. What do you think they are going to do — evaluate going forward, not backwards. Folks always act right around evaluation time. Then when it settles down they go back to being idle. These folks would still be employed at the end of Trump’s term and likely longer.
You have to start somewhere.
Again, “If not Musk, then who?”
[Quote: Originally Posted by Raiders22]@Rush51 It is not just that. They do not like who is doing it or the way it is being done. Can you imagine how long it would take Congress to do it. They would set up committees and hire independent parties to look at it. Even when Obama cut some they didn’t like it. Then it promptly grew back even larger. Like the one guy asked, “If not Musk, then who?”[/Quote]
Those people can take a hike. Lol.... and it shouldn't be lost on anyone that both ( Musk and Trump) are business guys...Trump is not a politician.
To your point, no politician could do what Musk is doing. To which I say,.... keep digging Mr. Musk !
The final point here which makes this so funny is that both were prior Democrats, too !
@Raiders22
So a discussion with you is on your terms and only the two questions you asked? I do not consider that discussion since you do not answer questions yourself and this is not a college class where the professor dictates the terms and the student has to answer the professor. I do not have to only answer your questions, or in a way you find pleasing. Ive answered your questions but not in a way you find acceptable.
Has any other high profile individual attempted to solicit people with money to support their ultra conservative agenda? Musk has multiple times. Musk per his actions shows his viewpoint and I dont care about his CYA vote if there was one, no more than I care if Zuck supported Biden and now Trump as that is a financial decision to protect interests.
The term ultra seems to get under your skin for some reason and since you side more with him you cannot see what someone else might regarding his actions and positions. Do you consider Sanders, AOC, Obama, Biden, Harris to be ultra? Some might...I do not consider any of those as ultra just AOC who is loud and aggressive but some DO see them as ultra based on their position and view. I for sure see Musk as ultra from his actions, his associations, his decisions, his wallet and the way he is aggressive almost to a point of offensive against things like inclusion. The fact Musk has multiple aggressive attempts to forward a strong conservative agenda and also has been meddling in other countries politics forms my conclusion along with his OCD personality, in every thing he does he is ultra to a fault and in politics I consider him one of the most.
@wallstreetcappers
So a discussion with you is on your terms and only the two questions you asked?
Not necessarily. You know I can freestyle with the best of them.
But I am interested in your answers to the two questions. Because you used them as a starting point for your whole diatribe.
Therefore, it has to start somewhere. The beginning usually works.
So, you should be expected to be able to defend your opening statements when asked about them is all I am saying. 
@wallstreetcappers
No sir. The term ultra does not get under my skin.
I am asking why you define Musk as ultra conservative—when absolutely no one else has said this.
If you consider Musk ultra and not Sanders, maybe your definition of ultra is just different.
Everyone knows Sanders is ultra — he even admits it; no one has ever said it about Musk.
What ultra conservative agenda? Cutting waste? Even Obama and Clinton tried that. That is not just a conservative agenda. It just is because Trump is doing it now.
But Musk’s politics have never been known as conservative. Trump either.
So, now that they promote a fiscal responsible economy does not make them ultra anything to me.
Guess it would have been OK to burn down vaccination centers when Biden fired Federal workers who chose not to get vaccinated while allowing illegal immigrants to flood the country unvaccinated.
Or at least "understand" the attacks on vacinne centers.
Funny I saw no remorse for those fired workers. And Biden got COVID three times.
@wallstreetcappers
I for sure see Musk as ultra from his actions, his associations, his decisions, his wallet and the way he is aggressive almost to a point of offensive against things like inclusion.
That is not being ‘ultra-conservative’, maybe ultra -focused or something else.
His wallet? How so? He is not an extravagant spender like some of the ‘ultra-rich’. I think his main house now is 1200 sq ft. I hear he does have a nicer one somewhere.
But he is maybe conservative about money policies. But I really have never heard of anyone considering a bastion of conservative political views.
That is why I question exactly what led you to those conclusions.
I know you don’t like him or any conservatives. But all CEOS are not ultra conservatives. So, I just thought it odd you decided to group him in with all the others you don’t like with that title.
But it is what it is. You see him as ultra conservative and I do not.
@Raiders22
His wallet regarding politics, you think I was talking about his house or the ten plus women he has kids with?
The difference between you and me is that I can see where people would draw conclusions and I did that exact thing right above in my reply to you. I suggested that based on how someone views things it would determine their definition, then what did you do? The usual swat away, minimize a position then claim the exact opposite because it fit your narrative.
You said Sanders is an ultra and were quite smug about it yet any mention of Musk you just point your finger down so condescendingly and either ignore or dismiss any comments made towards that view. You also did not address the points I made regarding the fact he has both pursued conservative agendas here and elsewhere, he has tried financial bribes to citizens to forward his conservative agenda, he has gone to ultra conservative meetings and forwarded his agenda. I can see how you would shade my comments because you agree with him and how you would think that a progressive like Sanders is an ultra because it fits your narrative. I do not see Sanders as an ultra he is a vocal progressive more of a social progressive but there is a good reason why I put him on the list. To one group he might be seen as an ultra another is a progressive another is an expressive democrat it is all about the view of the individual.
@wallstreetcappers
Okay. You said ‘his wallet’. So, yes I assumed you meant ‘his wallet’.
So, what do you mean by his wallet regarding politics?
Because he supported a Trump this time instead of Biden?
Or because he is trying to save the taxpayers money?
Neither of those make him an ultra-conservative.
Does it?
@wallstreetcappers
It is not about fitting my narrative. I would be glad to say he is a conservative. He just has not been known that way before.
Before this cycle do you think he was a conservative, let alone an ultra one? He was never even involved in politics.
I wasn’t smug about saying Sanders is.
No reason to be smug about it That is well known by his voting record and policies and platform when running for office. He readily admits it.
I honestly am not being condescending. I simply wanted you to clarify why you felt that way on those two questions.
You have stated then both multiple times and have not give exact examples of what he did to those individuals to have them torch things — even in other countries.
Then you say he is ultra conservative. But none of your examples are what one typically would think of as a conservative person, let alone an ultra one.
It is not enough to say his agenda and he went to meetings, I am asking you exactly what you mean?
Are you mainly talking about the DOGE stuff?
I mean come on, even Democrats see Sanders this way:
Most Democrats and Democratic-leaning independents describe Sanders’ political views as liberal (70%), including about half (48%) who say he is “very liberal.” By contrast, Democrats are about as likely to describe Biden’s views as moderate (31%) as they are to describe them as liberal (31%); 20% view Biden as conservative.
No clue why you put that in as a reply it has nothing to do with the conversation. You can quote stats all day long it has no bearing to the point but if you like quoting stats then you go right ahead.
I said based on the view of the individual and their perception then term might or might not have meaning. You consider Sanders as an ultra from your political perspective where I view him as a vocal progressive not an ultra liberal. I also asked who else you thought was from several names and in general. I also stated that unlike you I did not put down or minimize your view while claiming the same in reverse, I said it is up to the individual and their perspective. Not sure what you think is gained by holding the same position personally while stomping on the other who has the same view as you but toward a person you do not feel is so. I didnt throw silly stats at you to validate or tear down your view, I dont care who you think is liberal or moderate etc etc there is no altruistic final exam where you or I will expel one or the other for their position.
The entire purpose for my original reply was to say that Musk offended MANY with his classless abusive approach while being the likely single largest beneficiary of government subsidy and bloated abuse via carbon credits, he is the very last person to be determining the outcome of any government workers fate. I also said that there was no good purpose for the obnoxious offensive way he has handled this situation and also that his group has been wrong so many times it is blaringly obvious he is not seeking to help he is seeking to grandstand and be noticed. The real person of character would be respectful, diplomatic, thoughtful and cautious before axing thousands of US workers and would not characterize ANYONE as lazy or bloated or inefficient or of no value. THIS is how you offend people by categorizing them in the fashion he and others from your side has.
The true cost cutting that has value is those which Musk will never do, he is not about saving the government money he is about axing political project 2025 targets and firing faceless and non-represented citizens who cannot defend themselves, they have no recourse to his abuses.
@wallstreetcappers
No clue why you put that in as a reply it has nothing to do with the conversation.
Of course it does. You asked about Sanders. When I gave my opinion you said I was smug and you disagreed.
I simply put it there to back up my stance and point out even your side agrees he is ultra-Liberal.
So, maybe you should re-examine your look at him.
@wallstreetcappers
I also stated that unlike you I did not put down or minimize your view while claiming the same in reverse, I said it is up to the individual and their perspective. Not sure what you think is gained by holding the same position personally while stomping on the other who has the same view as you but toward a person you do not feel is so. I didnt throw silly stats at you to validate or tear down your view, I dont care who you think is liberal or moderate etc etc there is no altruistic final exam where you or I will expel one or the other for their position.
Again, you brought it up. It is not about expelling someone from an opinion. But when folks overwhelming see a person as one way — they likely are that way.
You can look at his voting record and policies.
Because you align with a lot of stuff he promotes maybe you are too close to see it like everyone else see it.
He can be a ‘vocal progressive’ — which nobody but you says he is known as — AND an ultra-Liberal. The man is so Liberal and such a Leftist and admits being a socialist, that he is nearly a Communist.
You really cannot get much more Liberal than him.
What do you think he is JUST a ULTR-Progressive then?
So, either way, yes, he is ULTRA.
@wallstreetcappers
The entire purpose for my original reply was to say that Musk offended MANY with his classless abusive approach while being the likely single largest beneficiary of government subsidy and bloated abuse via carbon credits, he is the very last person to be determining the outcome of any government workers fate.
So? That does NOT make him an Ultra Conservative.
How would you fire the people without offending them? This is simply how it is done when you have to let folks go. There is just no easy way to do it.
What would you have done differently?
@wallstreetcappers
The true cost cutting that has value is those which Musk will never do
Look he cannot cut everything all at once. They have to look at each situation or department.
He may or may not cut what YOU want him to cut. He may not cut what EVERYONE a thinks should be cut.
But at least they are trying to do it. This is something even the Democrats have acknowledged and even attempted before.
You guys on the Left are just upset that Trump and Musk are doing it. So, you get ‘upset’ at the way they do it and what they are cutting.
Don’t you agree that the government is bloated and inefficient?
How else can you do it and get it done in a timely manner?
Can you imagine how long it would take Congress to even look into it?
It would NEVER get done. We have see that for decades.
@wallstreetcappers
You cannot just say arbitrarily that a politician that has well known stances is not what they are. It is not simply up to one’s opinion.
I could say Rand Paul is a vocal Constitutionalist. That does NOT mean he is not also an ultra Conservative.
Most people realize this.
@wallstreetcappers
But exactly what did a Musk do to those people that made them go torch other people’s property?
They also have been threatening Tesla owners and posting their addresses, etc.
Why do that? Most Tesla owners are Liberals and did NOT vote for Trump. So, why attack them?
I really, really am interested how you can state this over and over and when asked about it, just double down on it and never explain what you mean.
These six reply per message approach makes it difficult to answer your reply in a simple way.
Why do I need to re-think my view on Sanders, because you quoted some stat then I need to reconsider my opinion? This approach you do over and over is odd that you think quoting some "expert" or some stat means your view is validated, well that for sure is false. I will state yet again this is multiple times on this same point...you can view someone however you want, if you and your doods here like to think Sanders is an ultra lib then good for you, find some stat or some partisan dood and quote that you are right if that makes you happy. I dont think it has much to do with anything myself. You can have your position as can I and no number of stats or fake experts can change your perspective or mine so why even post it? I consider Sanders as a vocal progressive not an ultra liberal but what does it matter anyway? He is one I listed and I also listed several others with the point being the person who has the view has decided this from their research and observation. I do not need some faceless expert or some stat you found who knows where made by who cares who.
You beat the same drum about validating your opinion based on some list of "folks" and thus it is so, not sure what this has to do with my points either, if you want to have a view based on whatever metrics you deemed as valuable go right ahead. Why do you need to say I align with his stuff, what purpose do you have saying this? And what proof do you have of this generalization? For someone bent on experts and stats you generalize me in a way that is very partisan and off, you have no idea what I side with regarding Sanders or any politician because you have not spent the time in finding out what I agree with and share opinions with, you cant know this so why say it? Quoting your opinion about the man is so Liberan and such a Leftist means what? It means based on whatever metrics you decided to follow that he is as you label him and you can do that I will not be calling you wrong or try to quote some found stat or found expert to invalidate your words. To me Sanders is a vocal progressive, not ultra anything. I dont care that you feel he is the most liberal that liberal can be, what does that matter to me in any fashion?
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