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    All Forums | Politics

    Meh, voter fraud is a myth!

    12 Next Last»
    bowlslit
    dl36
    thirdperson
    Skipster
    BWS77
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    bowlslit
    bowlslit
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    Posted: Aug. 18, 2016 - 11:17 PM ET #1

    https://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/peter-roff/2010/07/20/al-franken-may-have-won-his-senate-seat-through-voter-fraud

    He was the key vote in getting Obamacare passed.

    Hmm.
    Reply
    To remove first post, remove entire topic.
    https://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/peter-roff/2010/07/20/al-franken-may-have-won-his-senate-seat-through-voter-fraud

    He was the key vote in getting Obamacare passed.

    Hmm.
     
    dl36
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    Posted: Aug. 19, 2016 - 12:37 AM ET #2

    Why was his vote more key than any other vote?

    I didn't know votes had different worths 
    Reply
    Why was his vote more key than any other vote?

    I didn't know votes had different worths 
     
    bowlslit
    bowlslit
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    Posted: Aug. 19, 2016 - 1:17 AM ET #3

    Swing vote. What is so difficult to understand about that?
    Reply
    Swing vote. What is so difficult to understand about that?
     
    dl36
    dl36
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    Posted: Aug. 19, 2016 - 1:23 AM ET #4

    So a swing vote is with more?  

    Aren't they all proportionally worth the same?
    Reply
    So a swing vote is with more?  

    Aren't they all proportionally worth the same?
     
    dl36
    dl36
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    Posted: Aug. 19, 2016 - 1:25 AM ET #5

    Sorry, I meant to say: 

    So a swing vote is worth more?

    Aren't they all proportionally the same?

    Aren't all votes essentially key as others when you look at the reality in a bigger picture?


    Reply
    Sorry, I meant to say: 

    So a swing vote is worth more?

    Aren't they all proportionally the same?

    Aren't all votes essentially key as others when you look at the reality in a bigger picture?


     
    bowlslit
    bowlslit
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    Posted: Aug. 19, 2016 - 1:27 AM ET #6

    Quote Originally Posted by dl36:

    So a swing vote is with more?  

    Aren't they all proportionally worth the same?


    If you have one vote short of the number they are all useless if you have exactly the amount needed to pass...the last vote is invaluable. If you have one more than needed...any vote above the majority is worthless .

    Are you starting to get it now?
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by dl36:

    So a swing vote is with more?  

    Aren't they all proportionally worth the same?


    If you have one vote short of the number they are all useless if you have exactly the amount needed to pass...the last vote is invaluable. If you have one more than needed...any vote above the majority is worthless .

    Are you starting to get it now?
     
    dl36
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    Posted: Aug. 19, 2016 - 2:06 AM ET #7

    No but all votes are worth the same, and therefore all votes are key and worth the same. 

    Isn't that democracy?

    And why do you keep taunting me asking if I'm starting to get it now? I'm just having a political discussion about our country's legislative process and how all votes are equal as the founding fathers intended with no jabs or insults on my part.

    This is not as bad as the abuse I am taking on the other thread from you but I still do not get why you have act that way...

    But I'm sure you and others will say it's all my fault right?
    Reply
    No but all votes are worth the same, and therefore all votes are key and worth the same. 

    Isn't that democracy?

    And why do you keep taunting me asking if I'm starting to get it now? I'm just having a political discussion about our country's legislative process and how all votes are equal as the founding fathers intended with no jabs or insults on my part.

    This is not as bad as the abuse I am taking on the other thread from you but I still do not get why you have act that way...

    But I'm sure you and others will say it's all my fault right?
     
    bowlslit
    bowlslit
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    Posted: Aug. 19, 2016 - 2:23 AM ET #8

    Quote Originally Posted by dl36:

    No but all votes are worth the same, and therefore all votes are key and worth the same. 

    Isn't that democracy?

    And why do you keep taunting me asking if I'm starting to get it now? I'm just having a political discussion about our country's legislative process and how all votes are equal as the founding fathers intended with no jabs or insults on my part.

    This is not as bad as the abuse I am taking on the other thread from you but I still do not get why you have act that way...

    But I'm sure you and others will say it's all my fault right?


    https://www.startribune.com/did-al-franken-really-cast-the-60th-vote-for-obamacare/238733121/

    As the disputed 2008 election headed for the courts, Senate Democrats were still two votes shy of a filibuster-proof 60-vote “supermajority.” The late Pennsylvania Sen. Arlen Specter changed that in early 2009 by switching parties, becoming a Democrat. That gave the Democrats control of 59 votes, and sharpened the stakes in Minnesota’s protracted recount.

    Franken’s final victory in July 2009 made it 60. But a month later, the health care bill’s most ardent champion, Massachusetts’ Ted Kennedy, died.

    Kennedy’s temporarily appointed replacement, Paul Kirk, could just as easily be considered the “60th vote.” Or, just as plausibly, it was Connecticut independent Joe Lieberman, who held out until the controversial “public option” was jettisoned. Or perhaps more famously, the distinction could go to conservative Nebraska Democrat Ben Nelson, who held out for a Medicaid provision widely derided as the “Cornhusker Kickback.”

    Whoever takes the credit or the blame, the Senate approved the law in December 2009 on a vote of 60-39, the minimum necessary to avoid a GOP filibuster.

    But the drama was far from over. In January 2010, Massachusetts voters elected Republican Scott Brown to fill Kennedy’s seat. Suddenly, there was no more 60th vote.


    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by dl36:

    No but all votes are worth the same, and therefore all votes are key and worth the same. 

    Isn't that democracy?

    And why do you keep taunting me asking if I'm starting to get it now? I'm just having a political discussion about our country's legislative process and how all votes are equal as the founding fathers intended with no jabs or insults on my part.

    This is not as bad as the abuse I am taking on the other thread from you but I still do not get why you have act that way...

    But I'm sure you and others will say it's all my fault right?


    https://www.startribune.com/did-al-franken-really-cast-the-60th-vote-for-obamacare/238733121/

    As the disputed 2008 election headed for the courts, Senate Democrats were still two votes shy of a filibuster-proof 60-vote “supermajority.” The late Pennsylvania Sen. Arlen Specter changed that in early 2009 by switching parties, becoming a Democrat. That gave the Democrats control of 59 votes, and sharpened the stakes in Minnesota’s protracted recount.

    Franken’s final victory in July 2009 made it 60. But a month later, the health care bill’s most ardent champion, Massachusetts’ Ted Kennedy, died.

    Kennedy’s temporarily appointed replacement, Paul Kirk, could just as easily be considered the “60th vote.” Or, just as plausibly, it was Connecticut independent Joe Lieberman, who held out until the controversial “public option” was jettisoned. Or perhaps more famously, the distinction could go to conservative Nebraska Democrat Ben Nelson, who held out for a Medicaid provision widely derided as the “Cornhusker Kickback.”

    Whoever takes the credit or the blame, the Senate approved the law in December 2009 on a vote of 60-39, the minimum necessary to avoid a GOP filibuster.

    But the drama was far from over. In January 2010, Massachusetts voters elected Republican Scott Brown to fill Kennedy’s seat. Suddenly, there was no more 60th vote.


     
    dl36
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    Posted: Aug. 19, 2016 - 2:35 AM ET #9

    Ok so the 59 other votes were just as, if not even more key then no?
    Reply
    Ok so the 59 other votes were just as, if not even more key then no?
     
    bowlslit
    bowlslit
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    Posted: Aug. 19, 2016 - 2:44 AM ET #10

    Quote Originally Posted by dl36:

    Ok so the 59 other votes were just as, if not even more key then no?


    No because if Al Franken didn't win the election the republican incumbent would have won and very likely kept them from the filibuster proof 60th vote.

    Therefore, the 60th vote is more valuable than the 59th vote or any number below
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by dl36:

    Ok so the 59 other votes were just as, if not even more key then no?


    No because if Al Franken didn't win the election the republican incumbent would have won and very likely kept them from the filibuster proof 60th vote.

    Therefore, the 60th vote is more valuable than the 59th vote or any number below
     
    dl36
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    Posted: Aug. 19, 2016 - 2:53 AM ET #11

    But with out the other 59 the whole election thing and 60th vote can happen.  With out that foundation nothing else after matters.  thats why I say as important or more because with out the senate majority none of this happens.

    America had already spoken as to how they wanted this to go by even having the 59 votes to begin witt and each state and vote is worth the same as our forefathers envisioned for our govt today.   Had even one state made a different decision none of that would have mattered but America voted to give Obama the legislative backing he needed. 

    Seems like democracy was working as it's supposed to with each state in the senate having equal weight. 
    Reply
    But with out the other 59 the whole election thing and 60th vote can happen.  With out that foundation nothing else after matters.  thats why I say as important or more because with out the senate majority none of this happens.

    America had already spoken as to how they wanted this to go by even having the 59 votes to begin witt and each state and vote is worth the same as our forefathers envisioned for our govt today.   Had even one state made a different decision none of that would have mattered but America voted to give Obama the legislative backing he needed. 

    Seems like democracy was working as it's supposed to with each state in the senate having equal weight. 
     
    bowlslit
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    Posted: Aug. 19, 2016 - 2:59 AM ET #12

    All of that could be true if convicted felons were allowed to vote.

    And without the 60th vote who the states really sent 59 and one fraudulent candidate. That allows for filibuster.

    Remember, filibuster is evil if the other side is doing it. If your side is doing it, you are standing your ground.
    Reply
    All of that could be true if convicted felons were allowed to vote.

    And without the 60th vote who the states really sent 59 and one fraudulent candidate. That allows for filibuster.

    Remember, filibuster is evil if the other side is doing it. If your side is doing it, you are standing your ground.
     
    bowlslit
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    Posted: Aug. 19, 2016 - 3:03 AM ET #13

    If you are buying a $60 blow up doll from an automated kiosk and you only have $59 you are going home without the doll.

    Without the 60th dollar you have no doll.
    Reply
    If you are buying a $60 blow up doll from an automated kiosk and you only have $59 you are going home without the doll.

    Without the 60th dollar you have no doll.
     
    thirdperson
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    Posted: Aug. 19, 2016 - 9:29 AM ET #14

    According to wikipedia, supreme court ruled in favor of Franken over Coleman and missed allegations of voting irregularities.  Election officials found allegations incorrect.  Some cases involved mistaking a legal voter for felon with the same name.  Others involved felons who had their voting rights reinstated after serving sentence.  Other cases involved felons who didn't vote.  After further investigations, only 43 felons would be charged for illegal voting.  There is insufficient fraud to change election results.
    Reply
    According to wikipedia, supreme court ruled in favor of Franken over Coleman and missed allegations of voting irregularities.  Election officials found allegations incorrect.  Some cases involved mistaking a legal voter for felon with the same name.  Others involved felons who had their voting rights reinstated after serving sentence.  Other cases involved felons who didn't vote.  After further investigations, only 43 felons would be charged for illegal voting.  There is insufficient fraud to change election results.
     
    Skipster
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    Posted: Aug. 19, 2016 - 10:52 AM ET #15

    Quote Originally Posted by bowlslit:



    No because if Al Franken didn't win the election the republican incumbent would have won and very likely kept them from the filibuster proof 60th vote.

    Therefore, the 60th vote is more valuable than the 59th vote or any number below

    Some people are saying that the felons were republicans
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by bowlslit:



    No because if Al Franken didn't win the election the republican incumbent would have won and very likely kept them from the filibuster proof 60th vote.

    Therefore, the 60th vote is more valuable than the 59th vote or any number below

    Some people are saying that the felons were republicans
     
    bowlslit
    bowlslit
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    Posted: Aug. 19, 2016 - 11:18 AM ET #16

    Quote Originally Posted by Skipster:


    Some people are saying that the felons were republicans

    Lol Whoever said that isn't very smart. Even semi smart people know that the majority of felons vote Democratic...and it isn't even close.

    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by Skipster:


    Some people are saying that the felons were republicans

    Lol Whoever said that isn't very smart. Even semi smart people know that the majority of felons vote Democratic...and it isn't even close.

     
    bowlslit
    bowlslit
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    Posted: Aug. 19, 2016 - 11:59 AM ET #17

    Quote Originally Posted by thirdperson:

    According to wikipedia, supreme court ruled in favor of Franken over Coleman and missed allegations of voting irregularities.  Election officials found allegations incorrect.  Some cases involved mistaking a legal voter for felon with the same name.  Others involved felons who had their voting rights reinstated after serving sentence.  Other cases involved felons who didn't vote.  After further investigations, only 43 felons would be charged for illegal voting.  There is insufficient fraud to change election results.

    Riiiiiiiight. All I can say to you is that the referenced article was penned AFTER the Minnesota Supreme Court ruling where the time to truly vet the voters was reasonable. Also, the judges were very likely to be liberal leaning since they were from Minnesota.

    Why should we trust your information and judgment now that we know you completely butchered the stats regarding Americans killed by muslim terrorists?

    Not only did you obfuscate normal murders with terrorists murders, but you failed to account for very recent, high profile, obvious muslim terrorist attacks that killed Americans. Is your memory really that selective, or what?
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by thirdperson:

    According to wikipedia, supreme court ruled in favor of Franken over Coleman and missed allegations of voting irregularities.  Election officials found allegations incorrect.  Some cases involved mistaking a legal voter for felon with the same name.  Others involved felons who had their voting rights reinstated after serving sentence.  Other cases involved felons who didn't vote.  After further investigations, only 43 felons would be charged for illegal voting.  There is insufficient fraud to change election results.

    Riiiiiiiight. All I can say to you is that the referenced article was penned AFTER the Minnesota Supreme Court ruling where the time to truly vet the voters was reasonable. Also, the judges were very likely to be liberal leaning since they were from Minnesota.

    Why should we trust your information and judgment now that we know you completely butchered the stats regarding Americans killed by muslim terrorists?

    Not only did you obfuscate normal murders with terrorists murders, but you failed to account for very recent, high profile, obvious muslim terrorist attacks that killed Americans. Is your memory really that selective, or what?
     
    dl36
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    Posted: Aug. 19, 2016 - 1:01 PM ET #18

    Quote Originally Posted by bowlslit:

    All of that could be true if convicted felons were allowed to vote.

    And without the 60th vote who the states really sent 59 and one fraudulent candidate. That allows for filibuster.

    Remember, filibuster is evil if the other side is doing it. If your side is doing it, you are standing your ground.

    Yes but with out the majority of American states voting to have a democratic majority in the first place the 60th vote meant nothing.  All votes are worth the same as our founding fathers laid out for us.  And America had already spoken to the point of even making this relevant. 

    Then the Supreme Court did their job. The process laid out by our founding fathers worked.  It may not have worked out how you personally wanted it to for the outcome you personally felt should have happened  but America is not designed that way. 

    The 60th $1 bill is worth as much as the other 59.  Without any of them and you don't get to buy your blow up doll
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by bowlslit:

    All of that could be true if convicted felons were allowed to vote.

    And without the 60th vote who the states really sent 59 and one fraudulent candidate. That allows for filibuster.

    Remember, filibuster is evil if the other side is doing it. If your side is doing it, you are standing your ground.

    Yes but with out the majority of American states voting to have a democratic majority in the first place the 60th vote meant nothing.  All votes are worth the same as our founding fathers laid out for us.  And America had already spoken to the point of even making this relevant. 

    Then the Supreme Court did their job. The process laid out by our founding fathers worked.  It may not have worked out how you personally wanted it to for the outcome you personally felt should have happened  but America is not designed that way. 

    The 60th $1 bill is worth as much as the other 59.  Without any of them and you don't get to buy your blow up doll
     
    bowlslit
    bowlslit
    Banned
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Oct, 2008
    Posts: 5625
    Posted: Aug. 19, 2016 - 1:55 PM ET #19

    Quote Originally Posted by dl36:


    Yes but with out the majority of American states voting to have a democratic majority in the first place the 60th vote meant nothing.  All votes are worth the same as our founding fathers laid out for us.  And America had already spoken to the point of even making this relevant. 

    Then the Supreme Court did their job. The process laid out by our founding fathers worked.  It may not have worked out how you personally wanted it to for the outcome you personally felt should have happened  but America is not designed that way. 

    The 60th $1 bill is worth as much as the other 59.  Without any of them and you do't get to buy your blow up doll
    window.post_1471628979978_13 = function(win,msg){ win.postMessage(msg,"*"); }


    Ok dl36 lets put it this way. The score is 27-28 with 00:00 on the clock The bears are lining up to kick the xp that would tie the Cowboys in the super bowl and send it to OT.

    Is that xp really worth the same as all of the other points before it? Really?

    Test
    window.post_1471629016266_36 = function(win,msg){ win.postMessage(msg,"*"); }
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by dl36:


    Yes but with out the majority of American states voting to have a democratic majority in the first place the 60th vote meant nothing.  All votes are worth the same as our founding fathers laid out for us.  And America had already spoken to the point of even making this relevant. 

    Then the Supreme Court did their job. The process laid out by our founding fathers worked.  It may not have worked out how you personally wanted it to for the outcome you personally felt should have happened  but America is not designed that way. 

    The 60th $1 bill is worth as much as the other 59.  Without any of them and you do't get to buy your blow up doll
    window.post_1471628979978_13 = function(win,msg){ win.postMessage(msg,"*"); }


    Ok dl36 lets put it this way. The score is 27-28 with 00:00 on the clock The bears are lining up to kick the xp that would tie the Cowboys in the super bowl and send it to OT.

    Is that xp really worth the same as all of the other points before it? Really?

    Test
    window.post_1471629016266_36 = function(win,msg){ win.postMessage(msg,"*"); }
     
    BWS77
    BWS77
    Legend
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Jan, 2010
    Posts: 35351
    Posted: Aug. 20, 2016 - 12:20 AM ET #20

    Quote Originally Posted by bowlslit:

    window.post_1471628979978_13 = function(win,msg){ win.postMessage(msg,"*"); }


    Ok dl36 lets put it this way. The score is 27-28 with 00:00 on the clock The bears are lining up to kick the xp that would tie the Cowboys in the super bowl and send it to OT.

    Is that xp really worth the same as all of the other points before it? Really?

    Test
    window.post_1471629016266_36 = function(win,msg){ win.postMessage(msg,"*"); }


    Bears and Cowboys both play in the NFC so it's impossible for them to meet in the Super Bowl.   


    This is a sports related site, these kinds of mistakes will not be tolerated going forward.  


    Clean it up, you're better than this!
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by bowlslit:

    window.post_1471628979978_13 = function(win,msg){ win.postMessage(msg,"*"); }


    Ok dl36 lets put it this way. The score is 27-28 with 00:00 on the clock The bears are lining up to kick the xp that would tie the Cowboys in the super bowl and send it to OT.

    Is that xp really worth the same as all of the other points before it? Really?

    Test
    window.post_1471629016266_36 = function(win,msg){ win.postMessage(msg,"*"); }


    Bears and Cowboys both play in the NFC so it's impossible for them to meet in the Super Bowl.   


    This is a sports related site, these kinds of mistakes will not be tolerated going forward.  


    Clean it up, you're better than this!
     
    thirdperson
    thirdperson
    Captain
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Feb, 2005
    Posts: 9499
    Posted: Aug. 20, 2016 - 12:25 AM ET #21

    Quote Originally Posted by bowlslit:


    Riiiiiiiight.  the judges were very likely to be liberal leaning since they were from Minnesota.


    According to factcheck and theHill, most of the judges are appointed by republicans.  Besides, Minnesota has a positive reputation for clean elections. 

    The book "This is not Florida, How Franken won" discredited the flawed allegation that illegal felon voting decided election outcome.  Loser Coleman knew that Franken would win despite any court ruling about how ballots are counted.

    According to Minnpost, judges and Coleman's lawyer said there is no widespread fraud in the election.  Non-partisan judges, canvassing board and supreme court unanimiously approved Franken as winner.
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by bowlslit:


    Riiiiiiiight.  the judges were very likely to be liberal leaning since they were from Minnesota.


    According to factcheck and theHill, most of the judges are appointed by republicans.  Besides, Minnesota has a positive reputation for clean elections. 

    The book "This is not Florida, How Franken won" discredited the flawed allegation that illegal felon voting decided election outcome.  Loser Coleman knew that Franken would win despite any court ruling about how ballots are counted.

    According to Minnpost, judges and Coleman's lawyer said there is no widespread fraud in the election.  Non-partisan judges, canvassing board and supreme court unanimiously approved Franken as winner.
     
    bowlslit
    bowlslit
    Banned
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Oct, 2008
    Posts: 5625
    Posted: Aug. 20, 2016 - 1:38 AM ET #22

    Quote Originally Posted by BWS77:



    Bears and Cowboys both play in the NFC so it's impossible for them to meet in the Super Bowl.   


    This is a sports related site, these kinds of mistakes will not be tolerated going forward.  


    Clean it up, you're better than this!

    Trick question. Probably why I put the word 'test' bottom left corner.

    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by BWS77:



    Bears and Cowboys both play in the NFC so it's impossible for them to meet in the Super Bowl.   


    This is a sports related site, these kinds of mistakes will not be tolerated going forward.  


    Clean it up, you're better than this!

    Trick question. Probably why I put the word 'test' bottom left corner.

     
    SarasotaSlim
    SarasotaSlim
    Covers Rehab
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Jan, 2007
    Posts: 35543
    Posted: Aug. 20, 2016 - 2:28 AM ET #23

    The Detroit Tigers are at home playing the Cleveland Indians..the score is 2 to 2 in the ninth inning ..Detroit has already hit two solo home runs ( Victor Martinez and J.D. Martinez)..it's the bottom of the ninth inning and the Tigers have two outs ...the next man at the plate is MIguel Cabrera and the count is 3-2  Miggie hits a walk off homer one over the right field wall ..

    Who's homer is considered by the fans to be the most important ?

    1.) Victor Martinez
    2.) J.D.Martinez ..or
    3,) Miguel Cabrera's
    Reply
    The Detroit Tigers are at home playing the Cleveland Indians..the score is 2 to 2 in the ninth inning ..Detroit has already hit two solo home runs ( Victor Martinez and J.D. Martinez)..it's the bottom of the ninth inning and the Tigers have two outs ...the next man at the plate is MIguel Cabrera and the count is 3-2  Miggie hits a walk off homer one over the right field wall ..

    Who's homer is considered by the fans to be the most important ?

    1.) Victor Martinez
    2.) J.D.Martinez ..or
    3,) Miguel Cabrera's
     
    BWS77
    BWS77
    Legend
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Jan, 2010
    Posts: 35351
    Posted: Aug. 20, 2016 - 9:02 AM ET #24

    Quote Originally Posted by SarasotaSlim:

    The Detroit Tigers are at home playing the Cleveland Indians..the score is 2 to 2 in the ninth inning ..Detroit has already hit two solo home runs ( Victor Martinez and J.D. Martinez)..it's the bottom of the ninth inning and the Tigers have two outs ...the next man at the plate is MIguel Cabrera and the count is 3-2  Miggie hits a walk off homer one over the right field wall ..

    Who's homer is considered by the fans to be the most important ?

    1.) Victor Martinez
    2.) J.D.Martinez ..or
    3,) Miguel Cabrera's


    Did he hit off of Cody Allen or Andrew Miller?   More likely Allen, no idea why the Indians are using Miller at set up.   Adam Eaton (lefty) hit game winning grand slam the other night off of the right Miller.  Indians will blow this lead down the stretch.   
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by SarasotaSlim:

    The Detroit Tigers are at home playing the Cleveland Indians..the score is 2 to 2 in the ninth inning ..Detroit has already hit two solo home runs ( Victor Martinez and J.D. Martinez)..it's the bottom of the ninth inning and the Tigers have two outs ...the next man at the plate is MIguel Cabrera and the count is 3-2  Miggie hits a walk off homer one over the right field wall ..

    Who's homer is considered by the fans to be the most important ?

    1.) Victor Martinez
    2.) J.D.Martinez ..or
    3,) Miguel Cabrera's


    Did he hit off of Cody Allen or Andrew Miller?   More likely Allen, no idea why the Indians are using Miller at set up.   Adam Eaton (lefty) hit game winning grand slam the other night off of the right Miller.  Indians will blow this lead down the stretch.   
     
     
    Hawky
    Hawky
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    Participation Meter
    Joined: Apr, 2014
    Posts: 3439
    Posted: Aug. 20, 2016 - 6:03 PM ET #25

    dI36 is just a know it all homer. ignore the fraud on your side and point the blame on the other
    Reply
    dI36 is just a know it all homer. ignore the fraud on your side and point the blame on the other
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