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Carrier...from a Hoosier

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Posted: #51
One other fallacy I want to dismiss now for the lesser educated that credit Trump for something that is actually a penalty to the consumer.

The stock market has gone up to historic highs...why do you think that the market is going up up up? Is it due to higher interest rates or slowdown in global markets, the Chinese and other currencies falling? No all these things should make the market tank, not go up. Is it due to higher wages to US citizens or a stronger job market? No...that also does not exist. Is it due to higher GDP numbers or that people "feel good about things"? OF COURSE NOT....

The market does not give a flying crap about all the above, its media horsesh!t and anyone that knows the markets knows why they are going up.

The fallacy is that Trump (really repubs, not Trump as the president does not really control much in regards to the economy) will reduce taxation on corporations and thus corporations will make more MONEY...the market is going up because the belief is that regulations will decrease and taxation will decrease...both mean higher profits for corporations. Also, both do not mean crap about job creation, median income or improvement for anyone but business executives and owners of stocks.

There is nothing feel good about what is going to happen..reducing regulations and taxation will not mean anything with regards to jobs because corporations do not HIRE when they make more profits...they hire when there is DEMAND for production, they do not hire because they have more money in the bank and if they did they would not be in business very long.

Businesses hire when they do not have production capacity to fill production needs. Businesses have never enjoyed a greater level of profitability in the history of this country...balance sheets are full of cash because these businesses are not hiring because demand is not there...balance sheets are full of cash because offshoring of production increases profits and US employees are being max utilized when corps layoff and force those with jobs to work more for the same pay, squeezing all they can out of their labor pool and not increasing pay.

Understanding the markets is not that difficult yet so many on this site and in the general public are acting quite stupid and failing to see what drives the markets, and it has pretty much zero to do with Trump.

If Trump were to increase taxation and bully companies does that increase or decrease profits? Anyone???

Will stocks go up in price if they are not able to offshore or are taxed more? Up or down?

It goes to show you that corps do not fear Trump and his loud mouth meaningless blabbering, yet so many are soaking it up like mindless fat pigs...

 
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Posted: #52
I am one of those guys that do not mind paying a higher price for product if it means keeping jobs in the US. To be honest about it. I would not even know how much more I would be paying if manufactured in the US. Very complicated issue/problem. Globalization is here. I have no idea how it all shakes out in the future. I want the jobs here so my daughter's generation has an opportunity to succeed. 
 
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Posted: #53
Quote Originally Posted by sundance:

I am one of those guys that do not mind paying a higher price for product if it means keeping jobs in the US. To be honest about it. I would not even know how much more I would be paying if manufactured in the US. Very complicated issue/problem. Globalization is here. I have no idea how it all shakes out in the future. I want the jobs here so my daughter's generation has an opportunity to succeed. 

This is a very small sample size, but I can tell you what happened to us when we were picking products to sell on Amazon.

We have a line of kitchen products, and we were wanting to add rolling pins.  They sell pretty decent on Amazon, so we priced out suppliers.

A US supplier who lives in Indianapolis (my home town) could only produce these particular rolling pins for $12 a piece at his lowest price.  Average selling price for these pins are $15-$18.  Now add packaging, shipping to Amazon warehouses, and marketing fees, and we were above $15.  So we couldn't do that.

In China, I can get the same exact rolling pin in a color package, with an insert with instructions for $3 a piece.  To pay a freight forwarder to get the products over to the US and to the Amazon warehouse is about $3.75 a product.  That puts our cost around $8 a unit.  Then we have to take into account marketing, and storage fees.  That put us at $10-$11 a unit.  We ultimately ended up passing on that product, but those are the numbers.

Here is a product we do sell.  It's a Knee Ice/Heat Gel Pack.  We sell it for $20-$25 online.  We produce it in China for $3.50 a unit.  We get a pack with a color logo printed on it, and full color packaging on all sides.  Our freight forwarder charges about $3.90 a unit for shipping to the states and to the Amazon Warehouse.  That leaves us with a $10-$15 profit on that product, so we are able to sell it and sustain a business.

I contacted US suppliers to see how much they would charge us, and the lowest price I could get was $20 a unit, and that was without a full color package, and shipping to the Amazon Warehouse.  I did some research later on, and found out that the "US Supplier" was a company that basically took our information and then outsourced it to China, and then delivered them to us claiming it was a "Made in the USA" product.  I searched and searched and couldn't even find another US Supplier to make the same Gel Pack.

If we stuck to just buying US only products, you couldn't possibly imagine how much everything would cost.  That same Gel Pack that we sell for $20-$25 we would have to sell for $40 if we had a US supplier try and make it.  And that's just a Gel Pack.

China is just better at manufacturing than the US right now.  We are growing Tech jobs...not manufacturing.  And even if the US tries to really jump on manufacturing now, it's such an uphill battle with how inexpensive the products are from China.  And the other thing about the products from China...not only are they more inexpensive than the US...they are really good quality!!!  They sell cheap stuff, don't get me wrong, but for our ice packs we demand extra stitching on the corners so it doesn't rip, and extra gel in the pack so our packs stay colder longer than our competitors, and they just charge a few cents more per unit and we get a great quality product.

Just to really hammer this point home about quality and price...

Harley Davidson...the all american company.  The Hogs.  Support the Veterans.  American born company.  American Flag on all their commercials and posters.  God, Guns, Country.  Burn our flag...go to jail.  Keep Illegals out.  I mean, the ultimate "Patriotic" company...

Their main manufacturing is in India...lol.  Why?  Their customers couldn't afford it if they built it here.




 
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Posted: #54
I think you need to understand something about China, they are not "better" at all..I think that is another fallacy that people do not understand.

China is a communist country and their government subsidizes industry and their labor pool is cheap..so China is able to produce goods because of unknown, unlimited government subsidy and their labor costs are 10% of what ours is.

I actually think from what I have read that China is less efficient, less productive and lower quality than what is made here and in many countries.

If the US wants to offer unlimited corporate subsidies to build a massive industrial infrastructure AND our workers want to live on Chinese wages I am VERY sure you could get your gel pack for similar or better prices.

What WILL be interesting is when the defaulting on corporate debt and labor costs increase, how China will handle this issue. Their government cannot infinitely subsidize and fund industrial production like this.

Oh and how do you feel about getting cheap goods off the back of awful living conditions and communist treatment of citizens working for your lower cost? For sure it is a sticky situation.
 
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Posted: #55
Great thread  My thanks to Alan and wallstreetcappers for their insights.
 
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Posted: #56
Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:

I think you need to understand something about China, they are not "better" at all..I think that is another fallacy that people do not understand.

China is a communist country and their government subsidizes industry and their labor pool is cheap..so China is able to produce goods because of unknown, unlimited government subsidy and their labor costs are 10% of what ours is.

I actually think from what I have read that China is less efficient, less productive and lower quality than what is made here and in many countries.

If the US wants to offer unlimited corporate subsidies to build a massive industrial infrastructure AND our workers want to live on Chinese wages I am VERY sure you could get your gel pack for similar or better prices.

What WILL be interesting is when the defaulting on corporate debt and labor costs increase, how China will handle this issue. Their government cannot infinitely subsidize and fund industrial production like this.

Oh and how do you feel about getting cheap goods off the back of awful living conditions and communist treatment of citizens working for your lower cost? For sure it is a sticky situation.

I've been to China.  I've been to one of the factories that makes the gel packs we sell.  I've seen their working conditions.  My jaw hit the floor when I saw how different they are than what I expected.  Clean, professional, well maintained, professional workers...it's not what you think.  Sure there probably are some terrible factories, but not the one we use.  I've seen it with my own eyes.  As for how the government treats their civilians, it's out of my control.  I only have one vote in my own country.  My wife and I want to have businesses for ourselves to better our lives, and we made sure that the factories we use don't use child laborers or all that other stuff people think about when they hear about Chinese factories.  My wife and I are pretty excited about going over again to the Canton Fair, and meeting new factories and suppliers because we found it to be a pretty positive experience.

And just to be clear, anytime we pick a product we are interested in selling, we search hard for US suppliers.  Nothing would make me happier than using all US production.  Unfortunately, I haven't found anything even close to working out.  So many businesses use overseas suppliers that it's hard to use a US supplier and compete.  My dream would be to invent something that can I can build from the ground up and use US manufacturing, but we are new into the business of selling products, so I am a VERY small player.

I am actually having my wife work on writing a post for this thread because she is an HR director for a company that does manufacturing in Indianapolis.  She had some interesting thoughts on the Carrier Deal when I was telling her about this thread.  Hopefully, I'll have that coming soon.  
 
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Posted: #57
alan,

I bet you that if the factory in China is as you say it is off the back of government subsidy and heavy corporate debt. It is RARE that the Chinese government allows corporate default because it is a sign of weakness and they are about the image seen outside the country more than eroding their currency stash.

You are a smart person obviously, if a similar massive factory were being made in the US, how much do you think a modernized plant like that and many others would cost and how could you finance it here?

China gives their private industry a big boost because there is no free market in China..the government controls everything and until that changes they will keep funding these plants but for sure there is a cost associated with a plant like that.

Regarding the professional labor force, that CAN be true and for sure again if a foreign business owner from the US is coming to check you out, I am quite sure first that the government knows and second that they would not invite you over if this factory was not something to IMPRESS....do you understand that?

Irregardless if the Chinese worker seems happy and the plant is nice and efficient and clean...the fact is they are oppressed and if you really think about it, the oppression on the CURRENT worker will be much much worse if the government ever does lose control because they are making subsidized, inflation controlled wages, so how can they save and adjust for the inflation that WILL come if the government ever does lose its grip?

Its similar to India...we have many many friends in India and their country is always swamped in inflation, that anyone who worked in say the last 20-30 yrs is substantially ill-equipped to survive in the current inflationary environment..they have 10-15% annual inflation and savings is insufficient to survive the basics let alone have a comfortable lifestyle, and forget about buying property, that is similarly happening in industrialized large cities in China.

Just know that the average Joe in China working now and the last decade in a factory like that is majorly screwed, they have little shot to survive the tidal wave of inflation that should swamp China...they do not have the ability to save and get in front of the future with current wages. It is impossible...and the government cannot and will not be able to infinitely subsidize plants like the one you saw.
 
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Posted: #58
Quote Originally Posted by djbrow:


Well, this great discussion was because of the thought on your original post. You were able to get a seasoned discussion on very important issues which brought a plethora of good responses. Like Ken's above. 

Ken, I don't disagree with anything you have said. What I have railed against for years is that we actually do 'reward' a business by not penalizing them if they take their jobs overseas but leave the headquarters here. We are the only country that does this and Trump is the first major politician to address that. Maybe its semantics but I don't want to have to give companies incentives to stay because it creates a game of poker where the mere threat will lead to benefits. 

I want American companies to be 'rewarded' by staying here by not having to compete with cheaper products from their counterparts, not by lower taxes which just means the money our country needs comes from other pockets. 



 
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Posted: #59
divide n conquer...



wake up
 
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Posted: #60
Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:

I think you need to understand something about China, they are not "better" at all..I think that is another fallacy that people do not understand.

China is a communist country and their government subsidizes industry and their labor pool is cheap..so China is able to produce goods because of unknown, unlimited government subsidy and their labor costs are 10% of what ours is.

I actually think from what I have read that China is less efficient, less productive and lower quality than what is made here and in many countries.


Oh and how do you feel about getting cheap goods off the back of awful living conditions and communist treatment of citizens working for your lower cost? For sure it is a sticky situation.



chinese quality is bad because the demand from walmart and the people who buy it ( southern voting states) want it.

chinese workers get 1-2 breaks and work 12-14 hours. very sad.

american workers get a break every 2 hours. so the quality is a lil better


one smart guy from the west decided to make assembly lines in china and became very rich, his friends saw him become wealthy and did the same thing.

 
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Posted: #61
This is a fairly difficult topic but I liked what Ben Sasse had to say about it.  A rare Republican with some common sense.  I can't believe it.  The manufacturing sector has already changed and the trend is irreversible, just as agriculture experienced that shift as well with the number of Americans who used to be farmers.  It really doesn't matter what Trump does ultimately because he can't save manufacturing for America.  It's a thing of the past and we should be looking to pivot.  Of course, I suppose that's the difference between a conservative mindset and a progressive one.
 
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Posted: #62
Little update on the mood here in Indianapolis on the Carrier deal.  I've had a few days to let in settle in with people, and see what the local media is saying.

I'm very surprised, but there is not a whole lot of hoopla, and celebration to this deal.  It's a very republican state, and most if not all of my Republican friends are luke warm at best.  Here are the general takes from just about everyone I talk to.

1.  It's a nice gesture, but we're still losing 1400 jobs.
2.  These jobs will eventually be gone, so the deal is just delaying the inevitable.
3.  Republicans are not blindly supporting their candidate, they are supporting their stance on government not getting involved in business.

*This point really, really surprised me.  A lot of people around here went crazy for Trump, and I just assumed they would love everything he does.  But I'm very surprised that most people are really separating their love for their candidate, and their honest feelings on this deal.  It's actually refreshing, and I have to give people credit around here for being able to objectively judge this decision not on who made it, but as to how effective this deal actually is.

I was with some guys I do business with today, and we are all entrepreneurs, and all of us kind of felt the same just wondering where you draw the line with helping companies.  Obviously, me and my buddies aren't getting government help, so it leave us with a little bit of a sinking feeling.

I do also want to bring up this point.  Trump and Pence "saved" 850 jobs with tax breaks.  SalesForce added 800 jobs to this city this year back in May, and they are adding 20 more before the end of the year.  The acquired 12 floors of a building downtown to expand their offices next year, so they will single handedly add more jobs than the Carrier deal, but nobody hears about it.  It's not a sexy headline.

SalesForce is a tech company that employs young tech people.  They pay really good.  It just seems to me that it's a metaphor as to what's happening with our economy.  Tech jobs up....we need a tax deal to save some manufacturing jobs.

The economy here in Indiana is strong, but it's just not strong in the manufacturing sector, and that just seems to be what the future holds for us.

*I will have a detailed writeup from my wife about the manufacturing sector here in the midwest for everyone over the next couple days.  There will definitely be some surprising things, and I hope people get a lot out of it.  If we're lucky, maybe some of the politicians and media from LA and NY will see it, and they might read it and learn fro........never mind.  
 
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Posted: #63
Beyond all of what WSC said which I agree with (but nice to see put in very coherent & articulate sentences/paragraphs which I appreciate), it's good to see your posts as well, Alan. Until we get to a point where critical issues are able to be understood well enough to be discussed seriously on both sides, the real & artificial divide (us vs them at all costs fueled daily by the partisan talkin heads/shows which depend primarily on ratings/advertising $$) the winning no matter what just continues. But then that goes back to getting the big $$ & special interest influence out of our politics as at least a starter. Seems like a pipe dream at this point & headin in the wrong direction, but I try to remain hopeful.
 
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Posted: #64
2.  These jobs will eventually be gone, so the deal is just delaying the inevitable.

what will be sad, and i suspect inevitable, is if these jobs are gone in a few years and IN taxpayers are stuck paying carrier the corporate welfare because their tax break deal is for 10 years.  i don't suppose the taxpayers have a right to opt of if carrier moves these jobs out of the state at some point?  more likely, after the publicity dies down, carrier moves the jobs and no one outside of IN really hears about it.  i hope not though. 

but i say it's inevitable because not matter what you think of this, it's obviously a bandaid.  it does nothing to address the problems that prompted carrier to move the jobs in the first place. 
 
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Posted: #65
Yep CD - as far as I can tell, Carrier was just a grandstanding & meaningless gesture that was probably in the works for a while.
Trump is an unqualified & unfit fraud - hopefully, his election won't result in another needless war where multitudes of innocents die.
 
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Posted: #66
Quote Originally Posted by ClubDirt:

2.  These jobs will eventually be gone, so the deal is just delaying the inevitable.

what will be sad, and i suspect inevitable, is if these jobs are gone in a few years and IN taxpayers are stuck paying carrier the corporate welfare because their tax break deal is for 10 years.  i don't suppose the taxpayers have a right to opt of if carrier moves these jobs out of the state at some point?  more likely, after the publicity dies down, carrier moves the jobs and no one outside of IN really hears about it.  i hope not though. 

but i say it's inevitable because not matter what you think of this, it's obviously a bandaid.  it does nothing to address the problems that prompted carrier to move the jobs in the first place. 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA  LOL  LMFAO  LMAO 

Oh no no no no no no no....they get that tax break even if they move the jobs January 23rd.  Deal is done.  

My guess is they slowly move jobs out so that there isn't that one big headline.  People love headlines.  They make a big splash, and they don't have to take into account long-term or big picture issues.  

People don't care if they see the headline in 4 years that says:

"Carrier has slowly moved jobs overseas over the last 4 years"
or
"Indiana Taxpayers still paying for Carrier tax cuts years after jobs moved overseas"

But this one sounds sexier

"Trump saves American Manufacturing Jobs"

Big headline...don't worry about the details.

But people around here are worried about the details.  I'm pleasantly surprised that people are happy about jobs being saved, but they are very concerned with how it was accomplished.  I see a very healthy analysis from people around here that I did not see coming. I'm very proud for how my city and state is reacting.  I hope we keep analyzing some of these decisions the way we've done the Carrier deal.  It's the best way to keep our politicians in check.  Be honest, and thoughtful and let them know that if we voted for them or not, we are going to objectively analyze their decisions not based on political party or preconceived notions, but on the merits and thoughts and planning that went into a decision.  Being skeptical of the person you didn't vote for is easy, but it takes real courage to be skeptical of the person you did vote for and to make sure that their decisions fit into your beliefs, and what you think is important.  I can't tell you how happy I am to see Trump voters around here doing this exact thing.  Maybe us Hoosier hick-rednecks are a little smarter than some people may give us credit for 
 
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Posted: #67
Alan

Just saw this terrific post.
Only recently did I find covers.
Found you too as I am a pga handicapper and you are a terrific pga handicapper.  One of the few on covers I find a "must read".
I know nothing about Nascar and honestly never cared much for it, but I'll have to check your posts if there is $$ to be made!

Totally agree with you on most everything you say, and found your Midwestern take very interesting.  I've spent my entire life in Long Island, NY, the suburbs of New York City.  I spent 7 years in school in Buffalo (undergrad then law school) and saw the difference in the people there.  Definitely more friendly, hard working blue collar types.  Like to drink, play ball, work hard, love their sports teams.  All good stuff. 
The cost of living is so different outside of NY. I saw that in Buffalo, but the town was depressed in the late 70s and 80s when I was there.  Money went very far if you had some.  But the city was full of beat up factories, a steel town gone bad.  I've been back for some baseball team reunions (I pitched a bit for the school team) and there is a revival going on.  The people deserve it. 

I visited West Lafayette, Ind. with my older son, who was accepted at Purdue engineering school.  The school was great BUT the town was dismal.  West Lafayette is dying.  Not sure what can be done there to revive that town.  My son ended up passing on Purdue and is at Penn State, and loves it there.

My buddy and his wife recently moved to Des Moines after his wife, an executive at Meredith Corp., was relocated.  They didn't know what to expect, but love it there.  Sold their $700,00 home in New Jersey and moved to a beautiful home in a fancy neighborhood in Des Moines.  They live like kings.  I visited them with my 14 year old son and we took a road trip from there to Omaha to see Warren Buffet and Charley Munger at the Berkeshire Hathaway Annual meeting 2 years ago.  When we returned my wife asked my son how was Des Moines and he said "it's so much better than where we live!".  And we live in an expensive suburb of NYC!
I too extolled the beauty and lifestyle of the Midwest to the wife.  Everyone so friendly and just a pure way to live as opposed to the grind and stress here.

That said the Carrier deal is a headline but you have dug much deeper into the deal.
Just yesterday I said to a friend (big Trump supporter) that it sets a bad precedent.
Threaten to leave and you get tax breaks on the taxpayer's back.
What about the company next door.  They see this and now they threaten to leave.  Where does it end?
Pretty soon the $.15/year per person adds up and in the end, when the tax breaks expire, they may leave anyway.
Just a bandaid like you said.  There is a much bigger problem which you described so well.  I don't know the answer

Thanks for your insight.  I found it extremely interesting.
 
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Posted: #68
Thanks sacker!  2017 shaping up to be a really profitable PGA season.  Really hit my stride towards the end of the year and I feel like I have a good feel on a lot of golfers.  Maybe we can get some of the guys here in the political forum to check it out 

#freemoney
 
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Posted: #69
Interesting points from all perspectives.   Just want to add from a business/stock guy I understand the concern about setting a bad precedent, but from my perspective I think attitude matters.   Just the idea that trump is sending a message that it's not ok to do what these companies r doing and that he's going to foster a pro business environment seems like a positive.  I think Obamas heart was in the right place but I never understood why he was so intent on demonizing wall st.   Holding some accountable for the 2008 collapse should not have been mutually exclusive w fostering a pro business environment
 
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Posted: #70
alan, what do you know about this?


https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/carrier-plant-moving-600-jobs-mexico-trump-deal-article-1.3188843
 
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This is a true story, and this is not news to us here in the city.  My cousin is one of the managers for Carrier, and over the past few years he has been traveling to Mexico to prepare the factories for production when they move out of Indianapolis.  He is still traveling to Mexico to prepare the factories.  The only thing that changed with the "Carrier Deal" was some logistics.  

The jobs were never going to stay.  Carrier had started this process of moving to Mexico many years ago.  

The deal sounded like a desperate grab for a headline at the time, and it turns out that was all it was.  No jobs were saved, but us taxpayers get the privilege of giving several million dollars to Carrier so they could just go ahead and continue to move workers out of the state and into Mexico.  It's corporate welfare, except we aren't even saving them from anything...lol.  Us taxpayers are literally just giving them 7 million dollar for no f*cking reason.

My fear with Trump when he was running was that he was saying things he didn't believe in, but he was saying them because it was hitting home with the workers in the states he needed to win.  Jobs, Jobs, Jobs hit home here BIG TIME, and unfortunately it is becoming apparent that he either doesn't care about what he ran on, or lied about it completely, but based on the healthcare plan, his tax plan, and deals like this with Carrier, it's becoming more and more obvious he is more interested in helping rich people, and big businesses, and not the common worker who voted for him.

He got the headline when this "deal" was made, but I'm guessing we don't hear him get "mad" or "outraged" about Carrier moving these jobs to Mexico unless the story gets legs in the mainstream.

Not sure how the "working people" who voted for him are going to react, but based on what I hear around here, my guess is they will still love him and vote for him no matter how much he lies to them and takes away from them.


 
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Posted: #72
Quote Originally Posted by alangrrbs:

This is a true story, and this is not news to us here in the city.  My cousin is one of the managers for Carrier, and over the past few years he has been traveling to Mexico to prepare the factories for production when they move out of Indianapolis.  He is still traveling to Mexico to prepare the factories.  The only thing that changed with the "Carrier Deal" was some logistics.  

The jobs were never going to stay.  Carrier had started this process of moving to Mexico many years ago.  

The deal sounded like a desperate grab for a headline at the time, and it turns out that was all it was.  No jobs were saved, but us taxpayers get the privilege of giving several million dollars to Carrier so they could just go ahead and continue to move workers out of the state and into Mexico.  It's corporate welfare, except we aren't even saving them from anything...lol.  Us taxpayers are literally just giving them 7 million dollar for no f*cking reason.

My fear with Trump when he was running was that he was saying things he didn't believe in, but he was saying them because it was hitting home with the workers in the states he needed to win.  Jobs, Jobs, Jobs hit home here BIG TIME, and unfortunately it is becoming apparent that he either doesn't care about what he ran on, or lied about it completely, but based on the healthcare plan, his tax plan, and deals like this with Carrier, it's becoming more and more obvious he is more interested in helping rich people, and big businesses, and not the common worker who voted for him.

He got the headline when this "deal" was made, but I'm guessing we don't hear him get "mad" or "outraged" about Carrier moving these jobs to Mexico unless the story gets legs in the mainstream.

Not sure how the "working people" who voted for him are going to react, but based on what I hear around here, my guess is they will still love him and vote for him no matter how much he lies to them and takes away from them.


I don't believe that for a second. I think Trump was naïve in thinking how easily the problem could be solved, but I don't think he was saying things to mislead the people in the rustbelt states.

It is not an easy problem to solve, and comes down to an age old question. Favor the Consumer or the Worker ? Because Consumers (and big business) are doing just fine with the  lower prices (and fatter profit margins for big business) from decades ago.  So , what's the solution?  In many respects, a lot of the (low)  labor that is now offshore we wouldn't want back. 

And the comment about Chinese production ? Pleeeeeze.  I worked for a tech company for almost 15 years that did their production in China.  I know Chinese production, and we're talking display electronics .  Not good buddy.  Consistency,  and following protocol and procedures is not a strong suit of the Chinese people.  Trust me, and this comment probably surprises a lot of people here in the U.S.. 

There is good reason why Apple has an army of (their own) people at their contract manufacturer's over in China. 


QC (Quality Control) is not their strong suit ... particularly in China.

 
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Posted: #73
Quote Originally Posted by Rush51:

I don't believe that for a second. I think Trump was naïve in thinking how easily the problem could be solved, but I don't think he was saying things to mislead the people in the rustbelt states.

It is not an easy problem to solve, and comes down to an age old question. Favor the Consumer or the Worker ? Because Consumers (and big business) are doing just fine with the  lower prices (and fatter profit margins for big business) from decades ago.  So , what's the solution?  In many respects, a lot of the (low)  labor that is now offshore we wouldn't want back. 

And the comment about Chinese production ? Pleeeeeze.  I worked for a tech company for almost 15 years that did their production in China.  I know Chinese production, and we're talking display electronics .  Not good buddy.  Consistency,  and following protocol and procedures is not a strong suit of the Chinese people.  Trust me, and this comment probably surprises a lot of people here in the U.S.. 

There is good reason why Apple has an army of (their own) people at their contract manufacturer's over in China. 


QC (Quality Control) is not their strong suit ... particularly in China.


You could absolutely be right about Trump with that.  I guess it really doesn't matter if it was deceit or naivety, but it's obvious what he ran on just isn't going to happen.

As for China, I'm certainly not saying every factory is amazing, but your company decided China was good enough for the products, and there are tons of companies that have decided that overseas is the way to go with production, so it can't be that bad.  If the production was a complete disaster, companies wouldn't do business over there.  I don't know what the solution is to make the US more competitive with production with the massive price difference, and I certainly don't have a solution to automation replacing people, and to be honest I haven't heard anyone come up with a legit solution.  It may just be a problem with no solutions.
 
Legend
Participation Meter
Joined: Dec, 2003
Posts: 42786
Posted: #74
Quote Originally Posted by alangrrbs:

This is a true story, and this is not news to us here in the city.  My cousin is one of the managers for Carrier, and over the past few years he has been traveling to Mexico to prepare the factories for production when they move out of Indianapolis.  He is still traveling to Mexico to prepare the factories.  The only thing that changed with the "Carrier Deal" was some logistics.  

The jobs were never going to stay.  Carrier had started this process of moving to Mexico many years ago.  

The deal sounded like a desperate grab for a headline at the time, and it turns out that was all it was.  No jobs were saved, but us taxpayers get the privilege of giving several million dollars to Carrier so they could just go ahead and continue to move workers out of the state and into Mexico.  It's corporate welfare, except we aren't even saving them from anything...lol.  Us taxpayers are literally just giving them 7 million dollar for no f*cking reason.

My fear with Trump when he was running was that he was saying things he didn't believe in, but he was saying them because it was hitting home with the workers in the states he needed to win.  Jobs, Jobs, Jobs hit home here BIG TIME, and unfortunately it is becoming apparent that he either doesn't care about what he ran on, or lied about it completely, but based on the healthcare plan, his tax plan, and deals like this with Carrier, it's becoming more and more obvious he is more interested in helping rich people, and big businesses, and not the common worker who voted for him.

He got the headline when this "deal" was made, but I'm guessing we don't hear him get "mad" or "outraged" about Carrier moving these jobs to Mexico unless the story gets legs in the mainstream.

Not sure how the "working people" who voted for him are going to react, but based on what I hear around here, my guess is they will still love him and vote for him no matter how much he lies to them and takes away from them.



"Save Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security without cuts. Have to do it,"--Donald J. Trump

But Trump's budget proposal will cut $800 billion from Medicaid which he said won't be touched in his election campaign.

Guess what, Trump's own voters would be among hardest hit by his budget!!

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/first-read/trump-s-own-voters-would-be-among-hardest-hit-his-n763491

Can't trust this crap from him.
 
 
Hall of Fame
Participation Meter
Joined: May, 2003
Posts: 28196
Posted: #75
Quote Originally Posted by alangrrbs:

This is a true story, and this is not news to us here in the city.  My cousin is one of the managers for Carrier, and over the past few years he has been traveling to Mexico to prepare the factories for production when they move out of Indianapolis.  He is still traveling to Mexico to prepare the factories.  The only thing that changed with the "Carrier Deal" was some logistics.  

The jobs were never going to stay.  Carrier had started this process of moving to Mexico many years ago.  

The deal sounded like a desperate grab for a headline at the time, and it turns out that was all it was.  No jobs were saved, but us taxpayers get the privilege of giving several million dollars to Carrier so they could just go ahead and continue to move workers out of the state and into Mexico.  It's corporate welfare, except we aren't even saving them from anything...lol.  Us taxpayers are literally just giving them 7 million dollar for no f*cking reason.

My fear with Trump when he was running was that he was saying things he didn't believe in, but he was saying them because it was hitting home with the workers in the states he needed to win.  Jobs, Jobs, Jobs hit home here BIG TIME, and unfortunately it is becoming apparent that he either doesn't care about what he ran on, or lied about it completely, but based on the healthcare plan, his tax plan, and deals like this with Carrier, it's becoming more and more obvious he is more interested in helping rich people, and big businesses, and not the common worker who voted for him.

He got the headline when this "deal" was made, but I'm guessing we don't hear him get "mad" or "outraged" about Carrier moving these jobs to Mexico unless the story gets legs in the mainstream.

Not sure how the "working people" who voted for him are going to react, but based on what I hear around here, my guess is they will still love him and vote for him no matter how much he lies to them and takes away from them.




the person who gets a couple of hundred dollars a month and just sits on his/her behind and does nothing when he/she could be working (i know this isn't that common but they do exist) really piss people off.  the corporations that get millions of dollars in welfare and do nothing to help people with the benefit or even worse, move operations out of the country don't seem to bother people at all, or nearly as much as the former situation.  that kind of mindset, i'll never understand. 
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