well since this forum finally has a little bit of life, i think this is a very interesting hand that happened in the world series last night on espn.
ngo had the 44 made it 180k preflop (i could be a little off on this number) then tran smooth called him with aa in position. this call was ok in my opinion, especially if ngo was a looser player which he sorta seemed to be. flop was 6sp10sp3cl and ngo checked tran bet 160k (im pretty sure this was the amount) and ngo called. turn was the jcl ngo checked and tran bet 235k which ngo called again. river was the qhearts and ngo went all in for about 1.2 million and tran bitched then folded aa and ngo showed the 44. anyways i got some opinions on this hand, which ill share now.
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To remove first post, remove entire topic.
well since this forum finally has a little bit of life, i think this is a very interesting hand that happened in the world series last night on espn.
ngo had the 44 made it 180k preflop (i could be a little off on this number) then tran smooth called him with aa in position. this call was ok in my opinion, especially if ngo was a looser player which he sorta seemed to be. flop was 6sp10sp3cl and ngo checked tran bet 160k (im pretty sure this was the amount) and ngo called. turn was the jcl ngo checked and tran bet 235k which ngo called again. river was the qhearts and ngo went all in for about 1.2 million and tran bitched then folded aa and ngo showed the 44. anyways i got some opinions on this hand, which ill share now.
i really dont like how tran played this after the flop. i think he was trapping to induce the continuation bet from ngo (or hope ngo caught a sucker piece like raising with kj and hitting the jack) anyways when ngo checked he really didnt know where he was at and i felt he should have made a strong bet on the flop about 300-350k which was about the potsize, this would have ended the hand. this is why slowplaying aa is dangerous because when you underrep, it becomes a tough hand to call when there is a lot of action on the hand and we get to the river.
trans thoughts:
i really think he was pretty deadset that ngo had ak, which is why he was betting so small, b/c he thought he had him drawing dead. by betting so small though, he really put himself in a tough spot on the river.
ngos thoughts:
ill guarantee this guy never had him even close to aa. i really think on the flop he said well not that big a bet maybe hes trying to steal so ill call and see what happens. once tran bets the turn he has to think hes beat for sure, but i think this is where ngo starts to think that tran isnt very strong maybe he has like 109, 10k, 10a or maybe even like 88 and believes that ngo is drawing. so ngo calls and says if the river is a scare card im just gonna shove. the queen of hearts is a pretty scary card because if tran only had the ten there is now 2 overcards and ngo saw fit to fire away and put the pressure on tran.
i really think tran made this hand way too complicated and ended up putting himself in a tougher spot then he should have.
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i really dont like how tran played this after the flop. i think he was trapping to induce the continuation bet from ngo (or hope ngo caught a sucker piece like raising with kj and hitting the jack) anyways when ngo checked he really didnt know where he was at and i felt he should have made a strong bet on the flop about 300-350k which was about the potsize, this would have ended the hand. this is why slowplaying aa is dangerous because when you underrep, it becomes a tough hand to call when there is a lot of action on the hand and we get to the river.
trans thoughts:
i really think he was pretty deadset that ngo had ak, which is why he was betting so small, b/c he thought he had him drawing dead. by betting so small though, he really put himself in a tough spot on the river.
ngos thoughts:
ill guarantee this guy never had him even close to aa. i really think on the flop he said well not that big a bet maybe hes trying to steal so ill call and see what happens. once tran bets the turn he has to think hes beat for sure, but i think this is where ngo starts to think that tran isnt very strong maybe he has like 109, 10k, 10a or maybe even like 88 and believes that ngo is drawing. so ngo calls and says if the river is a scare card im just gonna shove. the queen of hearts is a pretty scary card because if tran only had the ten there is now 2 overcards and ngo saw fit to fire away and put the pressure on tran.
i really think tran made this hand way too complicated and ended up putting himself in a tougher spot then he should have.
it was a good push on the river to rep the straight especially because he had been check-calling all trans bets which gave off the idea that he had been chasing from calling small bets, took a lot of balls to push on the river. Tran butchered the hand it seems but had there been different cards on 4th and 5th street like say 2 and 8 the slow play would have worked.
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it was a good push on the river to rep the straight especially because he had been check-calling all trans bets which gave off the idea that he had been chasing from calling small bets, took a lot of balls to push on the river. Tran butchered the hand it seems but had there been different cards on 4th and 5th street like say 2 and 8 the slow play would have worked.
ya i do agree with you bomber, i think that tran made himself look pretty weak when he really wasnt, however by the river he wasnt superstrong either. ngo really felt like tran was weak. thats why i think you have to try and end the hand when you are gonna mess around with aa, you dont really want to see the hand going to the river.
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ya i do agree with you bomber, i think that tran made himself look pretty weak when he really wasnt, however by the river he wasnt superstrong either. ngo really felt like tran was weak. thats why i think you have to try and end the hand when you are gonna mess around with aa, you dont really want to see the hand going to the river.
yeah he disguised his hand too well i guess then the cards dropped nicely for ngos to set up a bluff on the river.
I tend to protect on the turn now days just incase my opponent hits 2 pair or a set - no worse feeling than having your wired cards beat by a marginal hand. But i will slow play according to what drops on the flop and turn and how my opponent is betting or calling, if i feel a slow play is safe then i will take it to the river, but more often than not i usually like to protect my hands on the turn.
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yeah he disguised his hand too well i guess then the cards dropped nicely for ngos to set up a bluff on the river.
I tend to protect on the turn now days just incase my opponent hits 2 pair or a set - no worse feeling than having your wired cards beat by a marginal hand. But i will slow play according to what drops on the flop and turn and how my opponent is betting or calling, if i feel a slow play is safe then i will take it to the river, but more often than not i usually like to protect my hands on the turn.
i agree with you guys, as much as a dick as ngo seemed, i think he made a nice play on the river. Tran never rep'ed AA at any time, and although I do like the flat call on the flop, he never really made a good enough bet on the flop/turn...
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i agree with you guys, as much as a dick as ngo seemed, i think he made a nice play on the river. Tran never rep'ed AA at any time, and although I do like the flat call on the flop, he never really made a good enough bet on the flop/turn...
Yea that turn bet by Tran was horrible he either bets pot or he should check IMO..betting 235 into a 700 pot is just plan stupid espicially if he had the guy on Ace King..If he bets 700 on the turn he wins a really nice pot right there or he forces NGO into making a mistake like reraising all in (I would think tran calls an all in bet on the turn) Allowing NGO to call that small of a bet really doesnt give him any info as to where he is in the hand if the board pairs NGO can make that same play if the 3rd spade comes NGO can make the same play there is just way to many hands that NGO could have to make betting 235 into a 700 pot profitable play in that spot..I dont mind how he played the hand until the turn although I will definatley agree there are other ways that it could have been played I just think Tran didn't make his major mistake till the turn..Also Clown interesting enough I think Tran could have called at the end had he thought about it a little more.. Why does NGO go all in there if he actually had ace king or a set or any big hand why wouldn't he put in an amount that Tran has to pay off? As I stated in that other thread over bets usually mean weakness and here is another example of that..The last 2 senerios that we have discussed both time the weaker hand over bet.....
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Clown
Yea that turn bet by Tran was horrible he either bets pot or he should check IMO..betting 235 into a 700 pot is just plan stupid espicially if he had the guy on Ace King..If he bets 700 on the turn he wins a really nice pot right there or he forces NGO into making a mistake like reraising all in (I would think tran calls an all in bet on the turn) Allowing NGO to call that small of a bet really doesnt give him any info as to where he is in the hand if the board pairs NGO can make that same play if the 3rd spade comes NGO can make the same play there is just way to many hands that NGO could have to make betting 235 into a 700 pot profitable play in that spot..I dont mind how he played the hand until the turn although I will definatley agree there are other ways that it could have been played I just think Tran didn't make his major mistake till the turn..Also Clown interesting enough I think Tran could have called at the end had he thought about it a little more.. Why does NGO go all in there if he actually had ace king or a set or any big hand why wouldn't he put in an amount that Tran has to pay off? As I stated in that other thread over bets usually mean weakness and here is another example of that..The last 2 senerios that we have discussed both time the weaker hand over bet.....
all good points in this thread so far, i do think that he could have called still on the end profit, i do think he needs to bet harder either on the flop or turn we all seem to agree with this, as there are a lot of scary cards on the river (as well as some super scary ones). honestly he may have called if this was just a regular cash game or tournament, but when he was so set on getting a bracelet that he didnt want to call off on the river with just a pair. extremely gutsy move by ngo tho, sometimes just pure agression gets you the win, but i still think there was no way ngo makes that bet if he knows tran has aa, he has to put him on the 10 or maybe like an 88 99 type hand that just got worse as the hand went on. i really think tran planned on pushing if a queen king ace spade or 4 came, of course the ace would have been a disaster.
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all good points in this thread so far, i do think that he could have called still on the end profit, i do think he needs to bet harder either on the flop or turn we all seem to agree with this, as there are a lot of scary cards on the river (as well as some super scary ones). honestly he may have called if this was just a regular cash game or tournament, but when he was so set on getting a bracelet that he didnt want to call off on the river with just a pair. extremely gutsy move by ngo tho, sometimes just pure agression gets you the win, but i still think there was no way ngo makes that bet if he knows tran has aa, he has to put him on the 10 or maybe like an 88 99 type hand that just got worse as the hand went on. i really think tran planned on pushing if a queen king ace spade or 4 came, of course the ace would have been a disaster.
Yea that turn bet by Tran was horrible he either bets pot or he should check IMO..betting 235 into a 700 pot is just plan stupid espicially if he had the guy on Ace King..If he bets 700 on the turn he wins a really nice pot right there or he forces NGO into making a mistake like reraising all in (I would think tran calls an all in bet on the turn) Allowing NGO to call that small of a bet really doesnt give him any info as to where he is in the hand if the board pairs NGO can make that same play if the 3rd spade comes NGO can make the same play there is just way to many hands that NGO could have to make betting 235 into a 700 pot profitable play in that spot..I dont mind how he played the hand until the turn although I will definatley agree there are other ways that it could have been played I just think Tran didn't make his major mistake till the turn..Also Clown interesting enough I think Tran could have called at the end had he thought about it a little more.. Why does NGO go all in there if he actually had ace king or a set or any big hand why wouldn't he put in an amount that Tran has to pay off? As I stated in that other thread over bets usually mean weakness and here is another example of that..The last 2 senerios that we have discussed both time the weaker hand over bet.....
yup but i guess he had to call too much, 1.2 million i think clown said. How much chips did Tran have? if he had like 5-6 mill perhaps he would have called but i assume he only had something like 2 mill or something then it would have been hard to call, especially, and as clown stated, he's thoughts on winning the bracelet messed with is mind.
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Quote Originally Posted by Profit01:
Clown
Yea that turn bet by Tran was horrible he either bets pot or he should check IMO..betting 235 into a 700 pot is just plan stupid espicially if he had the guy on Ace King..If he bets 700 on the turn he wins a really nice pot right there or he forces NGO into making a mistake like reraising all in (I would think tran calls an all in bet on the turn) Allowing NGO to call that small of a bet really doesnt give him any info as to where he is in the hand if the board pairs NGO can make that same play if the 3rd spade comes NGO can make the same play there is just way to many hands that NGO could have to make betting 235 into a 700 pot profitable play in that spot..I dont mind how he played the hand until the turn although I will definatley agree there are other ways that it could have been played I just think Tran didn't make his major mistake till the turn..Also Clown interesting enough I think Tran could have called at the end had he thought about it a little more.. Why does NGO go all in there if he actually had ace king or a set or any big hand why wouldn't he put in an amount that Tran has to pay off? As I stated in that other thread over bets usually mean weakness and here is another example of that..The last 2 senerios that we have discussed both time the weaker hand over bet.....
yup but i guess he had to call too much, 1.2 million i think clown said. How much chips did Tran have? if he had like 5-6 mill perhaps he would have called but i assume he only had something like 2 mill or something then it would have been hard to call, especially, and as clown stated, he's thoughts on winning the bracelet messed with is mind.
you know what the profit really makes an interesting point as i think about this more. if tran really thinks about this hand what hands could really beat him on the river? theres a 3610jq out there no flush. if tran had spades he probably would have bet the flop, not check called, same thing if he has like 10j 10k somewhere in there. if tran got 10j i really doubt he slowplays. if he has like 89 spades then he got an extremely lucky backdoor straight. maybe he has 66 and slowplayed the set but thats doubtful with 2 flush draws out there. i honestly think tran just said the whole time that ngo had ak and thought he was just extremely unlucky and was beaten. i still think tran has to bet more at some time, and i think his overconfidence in himself killed him here a lot. showing aa on the river, i think he was in essence saying im definitely beat and i was pretty unlucky, which wasnt the case.
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you know what the profit really makes an interesting point as i think about this more. if tran really thinks about this hand what hands could really beat him on the river? theres a 3610jq out there no flush. if tran had spades he probably would have bet the flop, not check called, same thing if he has like 10j 10k somewhere in there. if tran got 10j i really doubt he slowplays. if he has like 89 spades then he got an extremely lucky backdoor straight. maybe he has 66 and slowplayed the set but thats doubtful with 2 flush draws out there. i honestly think tran just said the whole time that ngo had ak and thought he was just extremely unlucky and was beaten. i still think tran has to bet more at some time, and i think his overconfidence in himself killed him here a lot. showing aa on the river, i think he was in essence saying im definitely beat and i was pretty unlucky, which wasnt the case.
yup but i guess he had to call too much, 1.2 million i think clown said. How much chips did Tran have? if he had like 5-6 mill perhaps he would have called but i assume he only had something like 2 mill or something then it would have been hard to call, especially, and as clown stated, he's thoughts on winning the bracelet messed with is mind.
i think they said it would have crippled him if he called and lost so im guessing he had less then 2 mil left.
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Quote Originally Posted by 3BallBomber:
yup but i guess he had to call too much, 1.2 million i think clown said. How much chips did Tran have? if he had like 5-6 mill perhaps he would have called but i assume he only had something like 2 mill or something then it would have been hard to call, especially, and as clown stated, he's thoughts on winning the bracelet messed with is mind.
i think they said it would have crippled him if he called and lost so im guessing he had less then 2 mil left.
i could see how tran puts him on ak though very easily in this hand. on the turn ngo would have had 10 outs (in his mind at least) if he did have ak and would be priced into a call. thats why these bets needed to be bigger from tran, ngos range of hands was too wide that he could be calling with.
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i could see how tran puts him on ak though very easily in this hand. on the turn ngo would have had 10 outs (in his mind at least) if he did have ak and would be priced into a call. thats why these bets needed to be bigger from tran, ngos range of hands was too wide that he could be calling with.
In my opinion i assume Tran thought or knew his Aces were good on that flop as his opponent checked then just called his bet, i also think he thought or knew that J on the turn was harmless so when it was checked to him he was trapping/value betting still. But had that Q been another card i highly doubt ngo would have had the balls to go all in there and it just happened it was a bad card for Tran especially following the J on the turn. I think had that Q been a 5 or something he would have taken this pot down, unless of course ngo was calling bets to set up the possible bluff on the river but i think he thought his pocket 4's were good then it was his decision at the time when the Q came out and there was a possible str8 to bluff the pot.
Tran left himself open for either a bluff or a suck out so with 3 over cards on the board by 4th street he should have protected right, represented his hand and raked the pot instead of slow playing further. But as we analise this, poker is situational and as i stated above i'm sure he thought the strategy was good at the time, i just think it was a bad river card for him.
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In my opinion i assume Tran thought or knew his Aces were good on that flop as his opponent checked then just called his bet, i also think he thought or knew that J on the turn was harmless so when it was checked to him he was trapping/value betting still. But had that Q been another card i highly doubt ngo would have had the balls to go all in there and it just happened it was a bad card for Tran especially following the J on the turn. I think had that Q been a 5 or something he would have taken this pot down, unless of course ngo was calling bets to set up the possible bluff on the river but i think he thought his pocket 4's were good then it was his decision at the time when the Q came out and there was a possible str8 to bluff the pot.
Tran left himself open for either a bluff or a suck out so with 3 over cards on the board by 4th street he should have protected right, represented his hand and raked the pot instead of slow playing further. But as we analise this, poker is situational and as i stated above i'm sure he thought the strategy was good at the time, i just think it was a bad river card for him.
only thing i think is that there was a ton of cards that ngo could have moved in on with on the river, not just the queen, plus by the time 5 cards are out on the board regardless of what they are, aa is just not as strong. when i smooth call aces preflop (which i rarely do, but i have) its usually against an agressive player that i know will continue to bet on the flop (and im in the cutoff or on the button and its just me and him assuming the blinds fold). if he doesnt, the trap didnt work and i think its time to just win the hand and not worry about value as much b/c aa isnt gonna get any better most likely.
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only thing i think is that there was a ton of cards that ngo could have moved in on with on the river, not just the queen, plus by the time 5 cards are out on the board regardless of what they are, aa is just not as strong. when i smooth call aces preflop (which i rarely do, but i have) its usually against an agressive player that i know will continue to bet on the flop (and im in the cutoff or on the button and its just me and him assuming the blinds fold). if he doesnt, the trap didnt work and i think its time to just win the hand and not worry about value as much b/c aa isnt gonna get any better most likely.
i could see how tran puts him on ak though very easily in this hand. on the turn ngo would have had 10 outs (in his mind at least) if he did have ak and would be priced into a call. thats why these bets needed to be bigger from tran, ngos range of hands was too wide that he could be calling with.
Exactly what I was thinking. Tran was 100% sure the guy had ace king..Like you said above clown with all those other possible hands that NGO could have had, NGO wouldn't have played so soft if he had a big hand due to all the potential drawing hands that where out there.So either he had the absolute nuts or he was bluffing on the end. I still say that the all in bet was a wrong play by NGO or I should say that folding was probally the wrong play by Tran strictly because most pro's would value bet in that spot in fear of not getting paid off in the end with a ace high straight. I also think you are exactly right in your assesment that Tran's ego played a big role in this hand....I keep thinking back to Negreanu vs Deeb and Danial value bets the end and Deeb folds it interesting to me not because of what Neg did but more because Deeb was tricked because Daniel's bet look like a value bet. Had Neg. went allin there Deeb calls because in his mind guys (pros) with hands value bet the nuts on the end to get paid and an overbet doesn't fit in those situation because good players put in the amount that will get paid..Just food for thought.....
Also look up the hand between Patrick Antoneis vs Doyle Brunson I think it was Doyles wpt event.. Doyle made "hero" call basicially in the exact sitituation we where talking about the other day. Patrick made ahuge overbet preflop with ace rag and doyle insta calls with a small pair..The intersting part was the short conversation that followed Doyles call...
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Quote Originally Posted by clowninmyside:
i could see how tran puts him on ak though very easily in this hand. on the turn ngo would have had 10 outs (in his mind at least) if he did have ak and would be priced into a call. thats why these bets needed to be bigger from tran, ngos range of hands was too wide that he could be calling with.
Exactly what I was thinking. Tran was 100% sure the guy had ace king..Like you said above clown with all those other possible hands that NGO could have had, NGO wouldn't have played so soft if he had a big hand due to all the potential drawing hands that where out there.So either he had the absolute nuts or he was bluffing on the end. I still say that the all in bet was a wrong play by NGO or I should say that folding was probally the wrong play by Tran strictly because most pro's would value bet in that spot in fear of not getting paid off in the end with a ace high straight. I also think you are exactly right in your assesment that Tran's ego played a big role in this hand....I keep thinking back to Negreanu vs Deeb and Danial value bets the end and Deeb folds it interesting to me not because of what Neg did but more because Deeb was tricked because Daniel's bet look like a value bet. Had Neg. went allin there Deeb calls because in his mind guys (pros) with hands value bet the nuts on the end to get paid and an overbet doesn't fit in those situation because good players put in the amount that will get paid..Just food for thought.....
Also look up the hand between Patrick Antoneis vs Doyle Brunson I think it was Doyles wpt event.. Doyle made "hero" call basicially in the exact sitituation we where talking about the other day. Patrick made ahuge overbet preflop with ace rag and doyle insta calls with a small pair..The intersting part was the short conversation that followed Doyles call...
Exactly what I was thinking. Tran was 100% sure the guy had ace king..Like you said above clown with all those other possible hands that NGO could have had, NGO wouldn't have played so soft if he had a big hand due to all the potential drawing hands that where out there.So either he had the absolute nuts or he was bluffing on the end. I still say that the all in bet was a wrong play by NGO or I should say that folding was probally the wrong play by Tran strictly because most pro's would value bet in that spot in fear of not getting paid off in the end with a ace high straight. I also think you are exactly right in your assesment that Tran's ego played a big role in this hand....I keep thinking back to Negreanu vs Deeb and Danial value bets the end and Deeb folds it interesting to me not because of what Neg did but more because Deeb was tricked because Daniel's bet look like a value bet. Had Neg. went allin there Deeb calls because in his mind guys (pros) with hands value bet the nuts on the end to get paid and an overbet doesn't fit in those situation because good players put in the amount that will get paid..Just food for thought.....
Also look up the hand between Patrick Antoneis vs Doyle Brunson I think it was Doyles wpt event.. Doyle made "hero" call basicially in the exact sitituation we where talking about the other day. Patrick made ahuge overbet preflop with ace rag and doyle insta calls with a small pair..The intersting part was the short conversation that followed Doyles call...
i never heard of this hand could you tell some more about it?
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Quote Originally Posted by Profit01:
Exactly what I was thinking. Tran was 100% sure the guy had ace king..Like you said above clown with all those other possible hands that NGO could have had, NGO wouldn't have played so soft if he had a big hand due to all the potential drawing hands that where out there.So either he had the absolute nuts or he was bluffing on the end. I still say that the all in bet was a wrong play by NGO or I should say that folding was probally the wrong play by Tran strictly because most pro's would value bet in that spot in fear of not getting paid off in the end with a ace high straight. I also think you are exactly right in your assesment that Tran's ego played a big role in this hand....I keep thinking back to Negreanu vs Deeb and Danial value bets the end and Deeb folds it interesting to me not because of what Neg did but more because Deeb was tricked because Daniel's bet look like a value bet. Had Neg. went allin there Deeb calls because in his mind guys (pros) with hands value bet the nuts on the end to get paid and an overbet doesn't fit in those situation because good players put in the amount that will get paid..Just food for thought.....
Also look up the hand between Patrick Antoneis vs Doyle Brunson I think it was Doyles wpt event.. Doyle made "hero" call basicially in the exact sitituation we where talking about the other day. Patrick made ahuge overbet preflop with ace rag and doyle insta calls with a small pair..The intersting part was the short conversation that followed Doyles call...
i never heard of this hand could you tell some more about it?
i never heard of this hand could you tell some more about it?
Doyle was on the BB I Believe and Patrick went all in for a million plus with Ace rag and Doyle insta calls with a small pocket pair( I do not remeber what they where but 3,3 or 4,4 comes to mind)..The interesting part was Patrick looks at Doyle and says how can you make that call with that hand and Doyle replyed to him how could you make that bet with that hand..
This exchange really made me rethink how I think out hands..This all though a very minimal exchange gives you some real nice insight as to the thought process that goes into the determination of calling and folding...The more I learn (read watch listen) The more I am finding that the secret is definatley in the betting more specifically how much how little in each individual spot whether it is preflop, flop turn or river and if it doesn't look right it probally isn't.
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Quote Originally Posted by clowninmyside:
i never heard of this hand could you tell some more about it?
Doyle was on the BB I Believe and Patrick went all in for a million plus with Ace rag and Doyle insta calls with a small pocket pair( I do not remeber what they where but 3,3 or 4,4 comes to mind)..The interesting part was Patrick looks at Doyle and says how can you make that call with that hand and Doyle replyed to him how could you make that bet with that hand..
This exchange really made me rethink how I think out hands..This all though a very minimal exchange gives you some real nice insight as to the thought process that goes into the determination of calling and folding...The more I learn (read watch listen) The more I am finding that the secret is definatley in the betting more specifically how much how little in each individual spot whether it is preflop, flop turn or river and if it doesn't look right it probally isn't.
i see so they basically had a coin flipping contest to survive? doesnt make any sense. anyways this hand is still a lot different then the hand captain was talking about. doyle was probably 100% sure that antonenis didnt have a pair because he had played with him many times. still doyle was barely ahead probably like 55 45 at the very most, and most pros think they are good enough that they do not want that 1-5% advantage for all of their chips. captain also was in the small blind in a multiway pot, i could easily see him saying i have jj i dont want to raise and have a flop with an overcard ill just shove and that would have came into my head if i had the 44. the more money that goes in preflop the less skill involved.
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i see so they basically had a coin flipping contest to survive? doesnt make any sense. anyways this hand is still a lot different then the hand captain was talking about. doyle was probably 100% sure that antonenis didnt have a pair because he had played with him many times. still doyle was barely ahead probably like 55 45 at the very most, and most pros think they are good enough that they do not want that 1-5% advantage for all of their chips. captain also was in the small blind in a multiway pot, i could easily see him saying i have jj i dont want to raise and have a flop with an overcard ill just shove and that would have came into my head if i had the 44. the more money that goes in preflop the less skill involved.
aces arent really a hand you want to have go any further then the flop
My sentiments exactly...Once this got to the river, he was in an impossible call situation. Nice play by Ngo representing the str8. It obviously backfires if Tran makes the call, but for his tourney life he musta been hating his decision to smoothe call the preflop action.
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Quote Originally Posted by clowninmyside:
aces arent really a hand you want to have go any further then the flop
My sentiments exactly...Once this got to the river, he was in an impossible call situation. Nice play by Ngo representing the str8. It obviously backfires if Tran makes the call, but for his tourney life he musta been hating his decision to smoothe call the preflop action.
I certainly would have bet more on the flop (at least 3/4 pot) to make Ngo's call even more of a mistake. However, Tran made a decision to play the hand a certain way and at least he followed through with it (ie. he got unlucky with the board so he had to muck). It's a good lesson to learn....if you decide to play a hand a certain way and you get unlucky with the board, etc., you HAVE to be willing to let the hand go (ie. don't compound your bad luck by losing all your chips). Granted, Ngo didn't have dick, but at least Tran was willing to fold when things didn't break his way.
But I really don't see how you can make a probe bet on a ragged flop with A's.
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I certainly would have bet more on the flop (at least 3/4 pot) to make Ngo's call even more of a mistake. However, Tran made a decision to play the hand a certain way and at least he followed through with it (ie. he got unlucky with the board so he had to muck). It's a good lesson to learn....if you decide to play a hand a certain way and you get unlucky with the board, etc., you HAVE to be willing to let the hand go (ie. don't compound your bad luck by losing all your chips). Granted, Ngo didn't have dick, but at least Tran was willing to fold when things didn't break his way.
But I really don't see how you can make a probe bet on a ragged flop with A's.
Doyle was on the BB I Believe and Patrick went all in for a million plus with Ace rag and Doyle insta calls with a small pocket pair( I do not remeber what they where but 3,3 or 4,4 comes to mind)..The interesting part was Patrick looks at Doyle and says how can you make that call with that hand and Doyle replyed to him how could you make that bet with that hand..
This exchange really made me rethink how I think out hands..This all though a very minimal exchange gives you some real nice insight as to the thought process that goes into the determination of calling and folding...The more I learn (read watch listen) The more I am finding that the secret is definatley in the betting more specifically how much how little in each individual spot whether it is preflop, flop turn or river and if it doesn't look right it probally isn't.
wasn't that hand in a high stakes poker episode? i remember it vaguely Doyle seemed to had made a loose call but it's Doyle Friggin Brunson his been around since like even before cards were invneted or something, his reading skills, instincts and intuition is at a scary level from ancient yeeears of experience plus his played Antonious many times before he knows he could raise with any hand.
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Quote Originally Posted by Profit01:
Doyle was on the BB I Believe and Patrick went all in for a million plus with Ace rag and Doyle insta calls with a small pocket pair( I do not remeber what they where but 3,3 or 4,4 comes to mind)..The interesting part was Patrick looks at Doyle and says how can you make that call with that hand and Doyle replyed to him how could you make that bet with that hand..
This exchange really made me rethink how I think out hands..This all though a very minimal exchange gives you some real nice insight as to the thought process that goes into the determination of calling and folding...The more I learn (read watch listen) The more I am finding that the secret is definatley in the betting more specifically how much how little in each individual spot whether it is preflop, flop turn or river and if it doesn't look right it probally isn't.
wasn't that hand in a high stakes poker episode? i remember it vaguely Doyle seemed to had made a loose call but it's Doyle Friggin Brunson his been around since like even before cards were invneted or something, his reading skills, instincts and intuition is at a scary level from ancient yeeears of experience plus his played Antonious many times before he knows he could raise with any hand.
Forget the hand, which one was the bigger jerkoff in this telecast? I was getting irritated with Tran crying about being bluffed off the pot for the rest of the time he was on. Boo hoo, take your loss like a man. And the other doofus got what he deserved calling the J for the other player and it hit on the river.
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Forget the hand, which one was the bigger jerkoff in this telecast? I was getting irritated with Tran crying about being bluffed off the pot for the rest of the time he was on. Boo hoo, take your loss like a man. And the other doofus got what he deserved calling the J for the other player and it hit on the river.
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