dog, I was saying he is lucky he had a relatively big stack and played it like that, if he was in between then yeah he could have been shut out of the pot like you said. A big re-raise or re-raise usually means AA or KK, but it depends on the players too, right. I have had 2 jokers go all in for a few hundred in front of me ( I didn't really know these guys at all so I have to figure them for strength right? ) and I chucked my Pocket J's, turns out these idiots had 6's and 7's, WTF. This guy says he would go all-in w/ JJ anytime. But that is not a good hand to call 2 all-in raises with.
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dog, I was saying he is lucky he had a relatively big stack and played it like that, if he was in between then yeah he could have been shut out of the pot like you said. A big re-raise or re-raise usually means AA or KK, but it depends on the players too, right. I have had 2 jokers go all in for a few hundred in front of me ( I didn't really know these guys at all so I have to figure them for strength right? ) and I chucked my Pocket J's, turns out these idiots had 6's and 7's, WTF. This guy says he would go all-in w/ JJ anytime. But that is not a good hand to call 2 all-in raises with.
in my opinion i think the line you took i the hand was horrible. If there is a straddle of 50 with 4 callers i like to see you come in for a raise of about 300 (pot sized raise) 250 is close enough. It flods around to the bb who you say is a solid player, in my opinion i dont think he is 3 betting you without AA,KK,QQ,AK,most solid players will not 3 bet out of position without a real hand. So he makes it 750 to go, which is roughly one third of your stack. i think the mistake you made in the hand came by calling right here.You say he has 1500 behind by calling 750 you are making your hand very difficult to get away from on a raged flop. Also making it an insta fold if an Ace or a King hit the flop. So given his range of 3 betting i think the optimal play is to fold pre flop. You really have to think about what his range of hands are when he is 3 betting you from the big blind and out of position. I think you will agree that you do not beat much of his range. As is turns out the way you played the hand there is no way you can ever call his shove there. I like a fold preflop or a shove hoping he might fold Q's or AK to a 4 bet. What casino was this at by the way?
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in my opinion i think the line you took i the hand was horrible. If there is a straddle of 50 with 4 callers i like to see you come in for a raise of about 300 (pot sized raise) 250 is close enough. It flods around to the bb who you say is a solid player, in my opinion i dont think he is 3 betting you without AA,KK,QQ,AK,most solid players will not 3 bet out of position without a real hand. So he makes it 750 to go, which is roughly one third of your stack. i think the mistake you made in the hand came by calling right here.You say he has 1500 behind by calling 750 you are making your hand very difficult to get away from on a raged flop. Also making it an insta fold if an Ace or a King hit the flop. So given his range of 3 betting i think the optimal play is to fold pre flop. You really have to think about what his range of hands are when he is 3 betting you from the big blind and out of position. I think you will agree that you do not beat much of his range. As is turns out the way you played the hand there is no way you can ever call his shove there. I like a fold preflop or a shove hoping he might fold Q's or AK to a 4 bet. What casino was this at by the way?
dog, I was saying he is lucky he had a relatively big stack and played it like that, if he was in between then yeah he could have been shut out of the pot like you said. A big re-raise or re-raise usually means AA or KK, but it depends on the players too, right. I have had 2 jokers go all in for a few hundred in front of me ( I didn't really know these guys at all so I have to figure them for strength right? ) and I chucked my Pocket J's, turns out these idiots had 6's and 7's, WTF. This guy says he would go all-in w/ JJ anytime. But that is not a good hand to call 2 all-in raises with.
I understand what you are saying, but the action in front of this guy was in a 2-5 game...a raise UTG to 25 .....3 callers before he acted and one is the best player at table...He considered popping it but flat calls and sees the great Q-6-6 flop. Now if he popped it the guy with K-K behind him raises or pushes and then the guy with A-A of course pushes all in. At this point he would have been facing...raise ....3 callers...his raise...a reraise or push..and then a push...SO FAR don't even know what other action would have came before he had to fold his Q-Q. He stated in his post The previous hand he bluffed and took down a 300 dollar pot, and he "did not want to put 600 in preflop with Q-Q", so he certainly is not pot committed to call if he put 200 in. Flat calling won him a great pot.
I understand what you are saying about "2 dimwits pushing with 6-6 and 7-7" but you can not assume all guys are fools because some are. I had a guy call a pot sized bet (900) the other night with 3-4 suited against a rainbow K-10-3 flop. then he turnd a 4 and my K-Q was no good. He was a good guy, took a shot and got there, what can you do? You still have to play poker assuming people play with some normal structure, for every gus hansen wannabe you play against there are ten on the rail But that is the reason poker is so popular the luck and card variance makes it a game where a guy like that can beat me. Also it is the same reason I do not get up and leave when Phil Laak is at my table because Phil is better then me but factor in the other 7 players, and the fact that luck is a major part of poker I may not only win that session but I may learn something from Phil. Because if all things were equal he would of course kick my butt.
GL guys
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Quote Originally Posted by Godfather16:
dog, I was saying he is lucky he had a relatively big stack and played it like that, if he was in between then yeah he could have been shut out of the pot like you said. A big re-raise or re-raise usually means AA or KK, but it depends on the players too, right. I have had 2 jokers go all in for a few hundred in front of me ( I didn't really know these guys at all so I have to figure them for strength right? ) and I chucked my Pocket J's, turns out these idiots had 6's and 7's, WTF. This guy says he would go all-in w/ JJ anytime. But that is not a good hand to call 2 all-in raises with.
I understand what you are saying, but the action in front of this guy was in a 2-5 game...a raise UTG to 25 .....3 callers before he acted and one is the best player at table...He considered popping it but flat calls and sees the great Q-6-6 flop. Now if he popped it the guy with K-K behind him raises or pushes and then the guy with A-A of course pushes all in. At this point he would have been facing...raise ....3 callers...his raise...a reraise or push..and then a push...SO FAR don't even know what other action would have came before he had to fold his Q-Q. He stated in his post The previous hand he bluffed and took down a 300 dollar pot, and he "did not want to put 600 in preflop with Q-Q", so he certainly is not pot committed to call if he put 200 in. Flat calling won him a great pot.
I understand what you are saying about "2 dimwits pushing with 6-6 and 7-7" but you can not assume all guys are fools because some are. I had a guy call a pot sized bet (900) the other night with 3-4 suited against a rainbow K-10-3 flop. then he turnd a 4 and my K-Q was no good. He was a good guy, took a shot and got there, what can you do? You still have to play poker assuming people play with some normal structure, for every gus hansen wannabe you play against there are ten on the rail But that is the reason poker is so popular the luck and card variance makes it a game where a guy like that can beat me. Also it is the same reason I do not get up and leave when Phil Laak is at my table because Phil is better then me but factor in the other 7 players, and the fact that luck is a major part of poker I may not only win that session but I may learn something from Phil. Because if all things were equal he would of course kick my butt.
that is my exact thinking, by the way I was caught bluffing the hand before, therefore a raise by me with Q-Q although ideal in pretty much every other circumstance, wouldve caused the push and repush to the point where unless I'm ready to go home, putting all my money in with Q's, would not be the most ideal of the optoins
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dog
that is my exact thinking, by the way I was caught bluffing the hand before, therefore a raise by me with Q-Q although ideal in pretty much every other circumstance, wouldve caused the push and repush to the point where unless I'm ready to go home, putting all my money in with Q's, would not be the most ideal of the optoins
dog, he was lucky the way everything played out. And the bluff before the hand would have ensured some big raises on that hand as KK and AA would have shoved.
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dog, he was lucky the way everything played out. And the bluff before the hand would have ensured some big raises on that hand as KK and AA would have shoved.
in my opinion i think the line you took i the hand was horrible. If there is a straddle of 50 with 4 callers i like to see you come in for a raise of about 300 (pot sized raise) 250 is close enough. It flods around to the bb who you say is a solid player, in my opinion i dont think he is 3 betting you without AA,KK,QQ,AK,most solid players will not 3 bet out of position without a real hand. So he makes it 750 to go, which is roughly one third of your stack. i think the mistake you made in the hand came by calling right here.You say he has 1500 behind by calling 750 you are making your hand very difficult to get away from on a raged flop. Also making it an insta fold if an Ace or a King hit the flop. So given his range of 3 betting i think the optimal play is to fold pre flop. You really have to think about what his range of hands are when he is 3 betting you from the big blind and out of position. I think you will agree that you do not beat much of his range. As is turns out the way you played the hand there is no way you can ever call his shove there. I like a fold preflop or a shove hoping he might fold Q's or AK to a 4 bet. What casino was this at by the way?
Tahoe,
I disagree with you regarding several aspects of this hand....
As I said we first have a straddle to 50 and 4 callers, I pop it to 250 he makes it 750 to go. Now you say laying it down preflop when it gets raraised is the right move. I totally disagree, with a straddle 4 callers my 250 and his raise, which is the action so far, there is over 1250 in pot, I am getting over 2.5 -1 to call his raise for an extra 500. So if I am 30% to win this pot I have to call. Only 2 hands beat me AA and KK. If he has QQ then we are 50-50 of course and every other hand I am a favorite or huge favorite and I am getting over 2.5-1 to call.
You say I can not beat much of his range but his range is not limited to the 4 hands you mentioned and even if it was, two of those hands are not bad for me. It was a reraise thats all, it was not like it was the third or fourth raise into a pot. A single raise and then a reraise even versus a solid player I can not immediately think is AA or KK. In a home cash game like this you can not just sit and wait for a huge rush of cards.
I do agree that was a flop I could not mess with and he made a gutsy bet and pushed me out. I think he decided preflop once he bet 1/3 of his chips he was taking a stand on this hand. That is why I disagree with you again and I do not think his position was a disadvantage, it was the exact opposite because he was pushing on the flop. I know I am correct here because he pushed against a BRUTAL flop for him and I was getting 2-1 to call him.
It was a home game in LA,
Nice talking to you
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Quote Originally Posted by tahoecapper:
in my opinion i think the line you took i the hand was horrible. If there is a straddle of 50 with 4 callers i like to see you come in for a raise of about 300 (pot sized raise) 250 is close enough. It flods around to the bb who you say is a solid player, in my opinion i dont think he is 3 betting you without AA,KK,QQ,AK,most solid players will not 3 bet out of position without a real hand. So he makes it 750 to go, which is roughly one third of your stack. i think the mistake you made in the hand came by calling right here.You say he has 1500 behind by calling 750 you are making your hand very difficult to get away from on a raged flop. Also making it an insta fold if an Ace or a King hit the flop. So given his range of 3 betting i think the optimal play is to fold pre flop. You really have to think about what his range of hands are when he is 3 betting you from the big blind and out of position. I think you will agree that you do not beat much of his range. As is turns out the way you played the hand there is no way you can ever call his shove there. I like a fold preflop or a shove hoping he might fold Q's or AK to a 4 bet. What casino was this at by the way?
Tahoe,
I disagree with you regarding several aspects of this hand....
As I said we first have a straddle to 50 and 4 callers, I pop it to 250 he makes it 750 to go. Now you say laying it down preflop when it gets raraised is the right move. I totally disagree, with a straddle 4 callers my 250 and his raise, which is the action so far, there is over 1250 in pot, I am getting over 2.5 -1 to call his raise for an extra 500. So if I am 30% to win this pot I have to call. Only 2 hands beat me AA and KK. If he has QQ then we are 50-50 of course and every other hand I am a favorite or huge favorite and I am getting over 2.5-1 to call.
You say I can not beat much of his range but his range is not limited to the 4 hands you mentioned and even if it was, two of those hands are not bad for me. It was a reraise thats all, it was not like it was the third or fourth raise into a pot. A single raise and then a reraise even versus a solid player I can not immediately think is AA or KK. In a home cash game like this you can not just sit and wait for a huge rush of cards.
I do agree that was a flop I could not mess with and he made a gutsy bet and pushed me out. I think he decided preflop once he bet 1/3 of his chips he was taking a stand on this hand. That is why I disagree with you again and I do not think his position was a disadvantage, it was the exact opposite because he was pushing on the flop. I know I am correct here because he pushed against a BRUTAL flop for him and I was getting 2-1 to call him.
I think the decision you had to make was pre flop. He makes it 750, 500 to you 1250 in the pot and 1500 left in the small stack. Considering your knowledge of the player you have to feel he has AA, KK, I think JJ is a stretch but within the realm and maybe AK. So you are killed by by 2 hands, have 1 killed, and are a slight favorite against the other. The most probable hands have you beat badly. You are either raising or folding. A call puts you committed to the pot as is he. He has one play on the flop and that is to push all in taking advantage of acting first. What board does he not push in with with any of the above hands? Very few unless he hits it real big. So your call might as well be an all in or else fold it pre flop.
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My two cents
I think the decision you had to make was pre flop. He makes it 750, 500 to you 1250 in the pot and 1500 left in the small stack. Considering your knowledge of the player you have to feel he has AA, KK, I think JJ is a stretch but within the realm and maybe AK. So you are killed by by 2 hands, have 1 killed, and are a slight favorite against the other. The most probable hands have you beat badly. You are either raising or folding. A call puts you committed to the pot as is he. He has one play on the flop and that is to push all in taking advantage of acting first. What board does he not push in with with any of the above hands? Very few unless he hits it real big. So your call might as well be an all in or else fold it pre flop.
Just read your response to Tahoe, whose comment I had not read before my post. If you think his range includes even more hands then tahoe thinks, then a shove pre flop is definitely the play. But you said yourself
Yes a guy can go ALL IN with garbage after the flop especially with all that money in already....like 1800 or so....However BEFORE the flop is the issue TS, why would a smart guy , which he is, get cute with a handful of people in for 50 , THEN a raise to 250....he raisng to 750 is risky business...I could have if I had a big enough hand, and some people think Q-Q is good enough, pushed all in right there and force him to call. He had only about 1500 left. I think it is almost impossible with me raising, an aggressive game, and Phil Laak behind him, that a guy would get cute and raise without a BIG hand.
No matter what he has he is putting you to the test on the flop. A check would mean he is a terrible player which you said he is not. So again pre flop is the issue. Your own analysis said you were beat. if you felt you had equity to make a call you had to make a raise and add the fold equity.
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Just read your response to Tahoe, whose comment I had not read before my post. If you think his range includes even more hands then tahoe thinks, then a shove pre flop is definitely the play. But you said yourself
Yes a guy can go ALL IN with garbage after the flop especially with all that money in already....like 1800 or so....However BEFORE the flop is the issue TS, why would a smart guy , which he is, get cute with a handful of people in for 50 , THEN a raise to 250....he raisng to 750 is risky business...I could have if I had a big enough hand, and some people think Q-Q is good enough, pushed all in right there and force him to call. He had only about 1500 left. I think it is almost impossible with me raising, an aggressive game, and Phil Laak behind him, that a guy would get cute and raise without a BIG hand.
No matter what he has he is putting you to the test on the flop. A check would mean he is a terrible player which you said he is not. So again pre flop is the issue. Your own analysis said you were beat. if you felt you had equity to make a call you had to make a raise and add the fold equity.
This is a very solid discussion, but I think mets has an excellent point. There wasn't a board in which he wouldn't have pushed all in on IMO. I really think J-J is a huge stretch for his spot. Even A-K is a bit of a stretch for that kind of re-raise unless the table was super loose. You certainly can't put him on Q-Q. For me, it would have been down to 3 hands....A-A, A-K, and K-K. The guy knows you are tight and you've told him you have a big hand and he cracks you back huge? I probably end up folding that hand to be honest.
Solid discussion though.
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This is a very solid discussion, but I think mets has an excellent point. There wasn't a board in which he wouldn't have pushed all in on IMO. I really think J-J is a huge stretch for his spot. Even A-K is a bit of a stretch for that kind of re-raise unless the table was super loose. You certainly can't put him on Q-Q. For me, it would have been down to 3 hands....A-A, A-K, and K-K. The guy knows you are tight and you've told him you have a big hand and he cracks you back huge? I probably end up folding that hand to be honest.
I think the decision you had to make was pre flop. He makes it 750, 500 to you 1250 in the pot and 1500 left in the small stack. Considering your knowledge of the player you have to feel he has AA, KK, I think JJ is a stretch but within the realm and maybe AK. So you are killed by by 2 hands, have 1 killed, and are a slight favorite against the other. The most probable hands have you beat badly. You are either raising or folding. A call puts you committed to the pot as is he. He has one play on the flop and that is to push all in taking advantage of acting first. What board does he not push in with with any of the above hands? Very few unless he hits it real big. So your call might as well be an all in or else fold it pre flop.
What you say makes alot of sense, of course you can not 100% predict what someone would have done. However since that flop was AWFUL for him and he still had the guts to push on the flop lends alot of credence to your assessment being 100% correct. You may be right I should have pushed preflop, and if I had I don't doubt he would have called but I would have split the pot instead of losing it.
Very well said metslider, would expect nothing else from a fellow mets fan. Thanks for the insight.
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Quote Originally Posted by metslider:
My two cents
I think the decision you had to make was pre flop. He makes it 750, 500 to you 1250 in the pot and 1500 left in the small stack. Considering your knowledge of the player you have to feel he has AA, KK, I think JJ is a stretch but within the realm and maybe AK. So you are killed by by 2 hands, have 1 killed, and are a slight favorite against the other. The most probable hands have you beat badly. You are either raising or folding. A call puts you committed to the pot as is he. He has one play on the flop and that is to push all in taking advantage of acting first. What board does he not push in with with any of the above hands? Very few unless he hits it real big. So your call might as well be an all in or else fold it pre flop.
What you say makes alot of sense, of course you can not 100% predict what someone would have done. However since that flop was AWFUL for him and he still had the guts to push on the flop lends alot of credence to your assessment being 100% correct. You may be right I should have pushed preflop, and if I had I don't doubt he would have called but I would have split the pot instead of losing it.
Very well said metslider, would expect nothing else from a fellow mets fan. Thanks for the insight.
This is a very solid discussion, but I think mets has an excellent point. There wasn't a board in which he wouldn't have pushed all in on IMO. I really think J-J is a huge stretch for his spot. Even A-K is a bit of a stretch for that kind of re-raise unless the table was super loose. You certainly can't put him on Q-Q. For me, it would have been down to 3 hands....A-A, A-K, and K-K. The guy knows you are tight and you've told him you have a big hand and he cracks you back huge? I probably end up folding that hand to be honest.
Solid discussion though.
I understand your point as well hutch, I wont lay down the Q-Q getting better then 2.5-1 for only 500 but I do see where you are coming from, I also agree mets made some valid points. Thanks for your input. Both of you had a real solid perspective and I appreciate you taking the time to add to the discussion.
GL all
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Quote Originally Posted by HutchEmAll:
This is a very solid discussion, but I think mets has an excellent point. There wasn't a board in which he wouldn't have pushed all in on IMO. I really think J-J is a huge stretch for his spot. Even A-K is a bit of a stretch for that kind of re-raise unless the table was super loose. You certainly can't put him on Q-Q. For me, it would have been down to 3 hands....A-A, A-K, and K-K. The guy knows you are tight and you've told him you have a big hand and he cracks you back huge? I probably end up folding that hand to be honest.
Solid discussion though.
I understand your point as well hutch, I wont lay down the Q-Q getting better then 2.5-1 for only 500 but I do see where you are coming from, I also agree mets made some valid points. Thanks for your input. Both of you had a real solid perspective and I appreciate you taking the time to add to the discussion.
Of course nothing is an absolute but if he is decent he has to push there or I suspect you do. Thats the advantage he has being shorter stacked and first to act in that spot. Sometimes those two things are an advantage. But I appreciate you taking the critique as constructive. I certainly don't know all and play much better on a thread when I can sit and think it all the way through.
I really have been trying to think about my hand and when I am committed before we even get to the flop in my game. I play a local 2/5 NL game. What it sounds like you did was analyze everything correctly but your pre flop call put you in the toughest of spots. I probably pissed more money away doing just that then i care to think about. Once I thought about exactly what the shorter stack had in front and how much I was putting in the pot and how much was likely to go in on the flop and turn etc then the game got a lot more simple.
Oh and lets go mets!!! lol
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Dog
Of course nothing is an absolute but if he is decent he has to push there or I suspect you do. Thats the advantage he has being shorter stacked and first to act in that spot. Sometimes those two things are an advantage. But I appreciate you taking the critique as constructive. I certainly don't know all and play much better on a thread when I can sit and think it all the way through.
I really have been trying to think about my hand and when I am committed before we even get to the flop in my game. I play a local 2/5 NL game. What it sounds like you did was analyze everything correctly but your pre flop call put you in the toughest of spots. I probably pissed more money away doing just that then i care to think about. Once I thought about exactly what the shorter stack had in front and how much I was putting in the pot and how much was likely to go in on the flop and turn etc then the game got a lot more simple.
2 things i wouldve done here, you obviously dont want to fold the QQ pre flop, you said the other player made it $750 after you made it $250, so re-raise him to know where you are, folding isnt an option at any point after the flop because you have pot odds. from my quick calculations there just over $2k in the pot, and you said the other player had $1500 left with u having $3k, so even if the player pushes after the flop, $1500 to win $3500-$4000. good value, anyone with a large bankroll makes that call.
but its easy to say now because we all know your cards haha.
so to sum it up, the 2 options were to re-raise preflop or to go all in on the flop, once u called the $750 u had the odds to go all the way.
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2 things i wouldve done here, you obviously dont want to fold the QQ pre flop, you said the other player made it $750 after you made it $250, so re-raise him to know where you are, folding isnt an option at any point after the flop because you have pot odds. from my quick calculations there just over $2k in the pot, and you said the other player had $1500 left with u having $3k, so even if the player pushes after the flop, $1500 to win $3500-$4000. good value, anyone with a large bankroll makes that call.
but its easy to say now because we all know your cards haha.
so to sum it up, the 2 options were to re-raise preflop or to go all in on the flop, once u called the $750 u had the odds to go all the way.
don't even know what other action would have came before he had to fold his Q-Q. He stated in his post The previous hand he bluffed and took down a 300 dollar pot, and he "did not want to put 600 in preflop with Q-Q", so he certainly is not pot committed to call if he put 200 in. Flat calling won him a great pot.
But that is the reason poker is so popular the luck and card variance makes it a game where a guy like that can beat me. Also it is the same reason I do not get up and leave when Phil Laak is at my table because Phil is better then me but factor in the other 7 players, and the fact that luck is a major part of poker I may not only win that session but I may learn something from Phil. Because if all things were equal he would of course kick my butt. 
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