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    All Forums | Poker

    I know this argument gets old...

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    Gunners
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    Gunners
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    Posted: Aug. 2, 2010 - 4:09 PM ET #1

    but this is some good info.  The top portion is dated, but relavent.  Then there is an update in further posts...

    Why Online Poker Is Not Rigged

    by Bill Rini on September 25, 2005

    In this post I will attempt to address every argument I’ve ever heard regarding online poker being rigged. Mind you, I do work for a company that develops online poker software but my motivation is not to convince people to trust *my* employer’s software, rather it is to have a central place where people can point misinformed message board and blog posters who think somebody is pulling something on them. Just point them here and end the thread. If you have heard an argument or have your own argument not covered in this post, please email me and I’ll add it to the list.

    Though it’s more than obvious to many people that most of the major online card rooms are legit, the internet is littered with literally thousands of claims that they’re somehow rigged. Regardless of how many people point out obvious counter-arguments such as the fact that most online card rooms have their games audited by well respected firms to ensure that the games are fair, people continue to insist that online poker is rigged.

    Almost without exception, claims of online poker being rigged fit pretty consistent patterns. For instance, nearly every accusation is presented void of any sort of empirical evidence. Perhaps someone will post a particular hand history of a bad beat but I have yet to see anyone post the results of analyzing 10,000 or 20,000 hand histories to show a true statistical anomaly worthy of further research. Readers are asked to take a leap of faith that this person’s bad beat or his gut feeling about how often certain things happen are indicative of long-term trends.

    This lack of empirical data should be the first clue as to the strength of the argument. First because with a large enough sample size (20,000 hands or more) one not need make any argument as the numbers will speak for themselves. But more importantly, it’s the fact that those making accusations don’t even collect hand history data which exposes a fatal flaw in their argument because nearly every serious online poker player uses a software package like PokerTracker to analyze their play. Not using a tracking software package immediately casts serious doubt on claims made by most accusers that they are experienced, savvy, online poker players.

    Another common characteristic of online-poker-is-rigged claims is a fundamental misunderstanding of probability. Just because something has a low probability of happening doesn’t mean that when it does, something is wrong. In fact, in many cases, quite the opposite is true. Low probability events are expected to happen given a large enough data set. For instance, if you flip a fair coin ten times, the chances of having a run of ten heads (or tails) is .09765625% (0.5^10). However, over a million coin flips, regardless of how seemingly low the probability of a run of ten heads in a row, you expect to get nearly 1000 runs of ten heads in a row. Unexpected things do happen. As long as the chances are above 0%, there’s a chance that it can happen.

    Obviously, this doesn’t apply only to online poker. At the 2005 WSoP, during a televised event, Mark Seif, in two different hands, faced opponents with quads. One flopped quad fives and the other flopped trips and made quads on the turn. The odds against this happening in so few hands that are dealt at one final table are fairly high. Yet it happened. In the 2004 WSoP Gallagher flops quad fives, his opponent with pocket nines pushes all-in and Gallagher obviously calls. The turn and river come 99 giving Gallagher’s opponent quad nines and the winning hand. According to PokerStove, Gallagher was 99.899% to win that hand. Both examples demonstrate that the improbable is not the impossible.

    Yet another common type of accusation is that from a player who has recently changed sites or is relatively new to online poker (though they claim decades of live poker experience). In other words, Party must be rigged because I was a winner on UB or I’ve been playing at Commerce for 25 years as a winning player but I can’t beat the $2/$4 at Paradise. Usually buried in this accusation is that the card room purposely rewards poor play. Since the accuser obviously plays excellent poker, the only explanation for losing at this particular site is that the game must be rigged. The glaring flaw in this argument is that there are many, many solid players playing on the same site and winning. If the deck was being stacked in favor of the fish, how do other players work their way up from .05/.10 micro-limits to playing the $30/$60 game? Based on the accuser’s argument we would have to believe that their consistent winning is due to how poorly they play. That’s an easy argument to refute if you’ve ever read their posts on forums like 2+2 and elsewhere. They are anything but fish.

    But rather than continue with generalities of the accusations being made, let’s jump right into it.

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    but this is some good info.  The top portion is dated, but relavent.  Then there is an update in further posts...

    Why Online Poker Is Not Rigged

    by Bill Rini on September 25, 2005

    In this post I will attempt to address every argument I’ve ever heard regarding online poker being rigged. Mind you, I do work for a company that develops online poker software but my motivation is not to convince people to trust *my* employer’s software, rather it is to have a central place where people can point misinformed message board and blog posters who think somebody is pulling something on them. Just point them here and end the thread. If you have heard an argument or have your own argument not covered in this post, please email me and I’ll add it to the list.

    Though it’s more than obvious to many people that most of the major online card rooms are legit, the internet is littered with literally thousands of claims that they’re somehow rigged. Regardless of how many people point out obvious counter-arguments such as the fact that most online card rooms have their games audited by well respected firms to ensure that the games are fair, people continue to insist that online poker is rigged.

    Almost without exception, claims of online poker being rigged fit pretty consistent patterns. For instance, nearly every accusation is presented void of any sort of empirical evidence. Perhaps someone will post a particular hand history of a bad beat but I have yet to see anyone post the results of analyzing 10,000 or 20,000 hand histories to show a true statistical anomaly worthy of further research. Readers are asked to take a leap of faith that this person’s bad beat or his gut feeling about how often certain things happen are indicative of long-term trends.

    This lack of empirical data should be the first clue as to the strength of the argument. First because with a large enough sample size (20,000 hands or more) one not need make any argument as the numbers will speak for themselves. But more importantly, it’s the fact that those making accusations don’t even collect hand history data which exposes a fatal flaw in their argument because nearly every serious online poker player uses a software package like PokerTracker to analyze their play. Not using a tracking software package immediately casts serious doubt on claims made by most accusers that they are experienced, savvy, online poker players.

    Another common characteristic of online-poker-is-rigged claims is a fundamental misunderstanding of probability. Just because something has a low probability of happening doesn’t mean that when it does, something is wrong. In fact, in many cases, quite the opposite is true. Low probability events are expected to happen given a large enough data set. For instance, if you flip a fair coin ten times, the chances of having a run of ten heads (or tails) is .09765625% (0.5^10). However, over a million coin flips, regardless of how seemingly low the probability of a run of ten heads in a row, you expect to get nearly 1000 runs of ten heads in a row. Unexpected things do happen. As long as the chances are above 0%, there’s a chance that it can happen.

    Obviously, this doesn’t apply only to online poker. At the 2005 WSoP, during a televised event, Mark Seif, in two different hands, faced opponents with quads. One flopped quad fives and the other flopped trips and made quads on the turn. The odds against this happening in so few hands that are dealt at one final table are fairly high. Yet it happened. In the 2004 WSoP Gallagher flops quad fives, his opponent with pocket nines pushes all-in and Gallagher obviously calls. The turn and river come 99 giving Gallagher’s opponent quad nines and the winning hand. According to PokerStove, Gallagher was 99.899% to win that hand. Both examples demonstrate that the improbable is not the impossible.

    Yet another common type of accusation is that from a player who has recently changed sites or is relatively new to online poker (though they claim decades of live poker experience). In other words, Party must be rigged because I was a winner on UB or I’ve been playing at Commerce for 25 years as a winning player but I can’t beat the $2/$4 at Paradise. Usually buried in this accusation is that the card room purposely rewards poor play. Since the accuser obviously plays excellent poker, the only explanation for losing at this particular site is that the game must be rigged. The glaring flaw in this argument is that there are many, many solid players playing on the same site and winning. If the deck was being stacked in favor of the fish, how do other players work their way up from .05/.10 micro-limits to playing the $30/$60 game? Based on the accuser’s argument we would have to believe that their consistent winning is due to how poorly they play. That’s an easy argument to refute if you’ve ever read their posts on forums like 2+2 and elsewhere. They are anything but fish.

    But rather than continue with generalities of the accusations being made, let’s jump right into it.

     
    Gunners
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    Posted: Aug. 2, 2010 - 4:09 PM ET #2

    Claim: More (Quads/Flushes/Straights/Full Houses) get dealt online than is normal.

    Fact: Completely false. As this link points out, and as many hundreds of regular online poker players have confirmed for themselves, given a large enough sample size of data, the numbers are within expected statistical norms.

    Claim: Online card rooms stack the deck in favor of poor players to keep them playing while allowing better players to be sucked out on.

    Fact: Completely false. Again, go look at the actual numbers. Over tens of thousands of hands analyzed by hundreds of people, high card holds up as often as it should, top pair holds up as often as it should, two pair holds up as often as it should, etc. There’s a simple and easy way to test your accusation, use hand histories! The numbers will either prove or disprove your accusations very simply.

    Claim: Online card rooms deal action flops to get more money in the pot so they can make extra rake.

    Fact: Completely false. One more time, go look at the actual numbers. Use the stats from any casino. They’re all going to come out about the same and that same is right about what they should statistically.

    Claim: If online poker rooms were legit they wouldn’t need to base their operations in offshore countries.

    Fact: False. Due to the legal climate in the US regarding online gambling, no site can be hosted or have a base of operations here.

    Claim: If Enron teaches us one thing it’s that corporations are just out to screw people and this makes them prone to rigging games.

    Fact: Debatable. While I, nor anyone, can debate the morality and ethical standards of every casino, the incentive structure for the online casino is highly weighted towards offering a fair game. Fist off, the profits are huge. Go look at Party’s financial statements. Why would one risk the almost instant death of their business if they were found to be rigging games just so they could rake an extra .50 a hand? They would be far more incentivized to just raise the rake than they would be to rig the game. Additionally, there’s far, far more money in going public or being acquired by a larger casino than there is in nickel and diming games. Of course, the most compelling argument is that enough smart people (mathematicians, computer scientists, etc) play poker and religiously track their results that any poker room that was doing something out of the ordinary would be quickly and easily caught thus providing sufficient disincentive.

    In summary, the vast majority of online-poker-is-rigged arguments can be easily resolved by allowing others to view your hand histories. If anything it seems painfully odd that in the thousands upon thousands of claims of online poker being rigged, not one single person has offered compelling data which could be scrutinized by others. Poker is a numbers game and the simplest way to test a hypothesis (say, that online poker is rigged) is to compare the numbers against the expected outcomes. And since many people have and continue to monitor such statistics without discovering evidence of any serious anomalies, the burden of proof rests with the person making the accusation. Simply inferring motives or dispensing anecdotal evidence is not likely to receive any sort of serious consideration when access to empirical data is readily available. The lack of empirical data in any claim that online poker is rigged reeks of suspicion.

    Links to additional resources:

    Perry Friedman and Howard Lederer on Full Tilt’s random shuffling

    PokerStar’s description of their random shuffle

    PokerStar’s independent auditor’s opinion on their shuffle

    Paradise Poker’s independent auditor’s opinion on the fairness of their shuffle

    PartyPoker’s independent auditor’s opinion on their shuffle

    Kahnawake Interactive Gaming Regulations (Kahnawake regulates many of the most popular card rooms)

    How We Learned to Cheat at Online Poker – Though this article is how a security team broke PlanetPoker’s random number generator (RNG), at a higher level it demonstrates that despite a poor RNG the researchers didn’t discover any intentional rigging of the game.

    Fluctuation and the Rigging of Online Poker by Bob Dainauski – Although his intent was to prove or disprove theories regarding the cash-out curse, one can easily see why players who start playing on a new site, perhaps underfunded, experience similar results.

    Shuffling and Randomization by Daniel Kimberg (CardPlayer Magazine)

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    Claim: More (Quads/Flushes/Straights/Full Houses) get dealt online than is normal.

    Fact: Completely false. As this link points out, and as many hundreds of regular online poker players have confirmed for themselves, given a large enough sample size of data, the numbers are within expected statistical norms.

    Claim: Online card rooms stack the deck in favor of poor players to keep them playing while allowing better players to be sucked out on.

    Fact: Completely false. Again, go look at the actual numbers. Over tens of thousands of hands analyzed by hundreds of people, high card holds up as often as it should, top pair holds up as often as it should, two pair holds up as often as it should, etc. There’s a simple and easy way to test your accusation, use hand histories! The numbers will either prove or disprove your accusations very simply.

    Claim: Online card rooms deal action flops to get more money in the pot so they can make extra rake.

    Fact: Completely false. One more time, go look at the actual numbers. Use the stats from any casino. They’re all going to come out about the same and that same is right about what they should statistically.

    Claim: If online poker rooms were legit they wouldn’t need to base their operations in offshore countries.

    Fact: False. Due to the legal climate in the US regarding online gambling, no site can be hosted or have a base of operations here.

    Claim: If Enron teaches us one thing it’s that corporations are just out to screw people and this makes them prone to rigging games.

    Fact: Debatable. While I, nor anyone, can debate the morality and ethical standards of every casino, the incentive structure for the online casino is highly weighted towards offering a fair game. Fist off, the profits are huge. Go look at Party’s financial statements. Why would one risk the almost instant death of their business if they were found to be rigging games just so they could rake an extra .50 a hand? They would be far more incentivized to just raise the rake than they would be to rig the game. Additionally, there’s far, far more money in going public or being acquired by a larger casino than there is in nickel and diming games. Of course, the most compelling argument is that enough smart people (mathematicians, computer scientists, etc) play poker and religiously track their results that any poker room that was doing something out of the ordinary would be quickly and easily caught thus providing sufficient disincentive.

    In summary, the vast majority of online-poker-is-rigged arguments can be easily resolved by allowing others to view your hand histories. If anything it seems painfully odd that in the thousands upon thousands of claims of online poker being rigged, not one single person has offered compelling data which could be scrutinized by others. Poker is a numbers game and the simplest way to test a hypothesis (say, that online poker is rigged) is to compare the numbers against the expected outcomes. And since many people have and continue to monitor such statistics without discovering evidence of any serious anomalies, the burden of proof rests with the person making the accusation. Simply inferring motives or dispensing anecdotal evidence is not likely to receive any sort of serious consideration when access to empirical data is readily available. The lack of empirical data in any claim that online poker is rigged reeks of suspicion.

    Links to additional resources:

    Perry Friedman and Howard Lederer on Full Tilt’s random shuffling

    PokerStar’s description of their random shuffle

    PokerStar’s independent auditor’s opinion on their shuffle

    Paradise Poker’s independent auditor’s opinion on the fairness of their shuffle

    PartyPoker’s independent auditor’s opinion on their shuffle

    Kahnawake Interactive Gaming Regulations (Kahnawake regulates many of the most popular card rooms)

    How We Learned to Cheat at Online Poker – Though this article is how a security team broke PlanetPoker’s random number generator (RNG), at a higher level it demonstrates that despite a poor RNG the researchers didn’t discover any intentional rigging of the game.

    Fluctuation and the Rigging of Online Poker by Bob Dainauski – Although his intent was to prove or disprove theories regarding the cash-out curse, one can easily see why players who start playing on a new site, perhaps underfunded, experience similar results.

    Shuffling and Randomization by Daniel Kimberg (CardPlayer Magazine)

     
    Gunners
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    Posted: Aug. 2, 2010 - 4:10 PM ET #3

    Updates

    Eddie points out that bot software is used on some sites. True. However, most bot programs are specifically banned by nearly every cardroom. PartyPoker and others have specific policies geared at stopping bots from playing on their sites. Most sites have adopted terms of service agreements that allow them to freeze the accounts of anyone suspected of using bot software on their sites. Obviously, for every move that the cardrooms make to prevent bots, bot writers will try to come up with a counter-measure.

    There have been some rumors about smaller sites using bots to fill tables but anecdotal evidence suggests that the bots play softly and usually leave as soon as the tables fill. Not exactly above board but if you stick with the larger poker rooms you can avoid such practices.

    10.12.05 I recently saw someone argue that one cannot prove online poker is not rigged. This person is correct. However, one can prove it to be rigged very easily. Since there lacks any crediable proof of it being rigged, despite the ease of proving it rigged via statistical analysis, one can correctly assume it is not rigged. If it were difficult to prove online poker being rigged then I could see the difficulty in the argument that it can neither be proved or disproved (like God) but this is not such a case. This is more like the theory of relativity in which scientists may not be able to prove it to be valid but they can devise plenty of experiments that would prove it to be false.

    On a side note, despite readers of this site posting the link to this thread on message boards all over the place (usually in threads where some yahoo is claiming online poker is rigged) and plenty more coming to this site to debate me personally, NOT ONE has accepted the challenge of providing their hand histories as proof of what they claim.

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    Eddie points out that bot software is used on some sites. True. However, most bot programs are specifically banned by nearly every cardroom. PartyPoker and others have specific policies geared at stopping bots from playing on their sites. Most sites have adopted terms of service agreements that allow them to freeze the accounts of anyone suspected of using bot software on their sites. Obviously, for every move that the cardrooms make to prevent bots, bot writers will try to come up with a counter-measure.

    There have been some rumors about smaller sites using bots to fill tables but anecdotal evidence suggests that the bots play softly and usually leave as soon as the tables fill. Not exactly above board but if you stick with the larger poker rooms you can avoid such practices.

    10.12.05 I recently saw someone argue that one cannot prove online poker is not rigged. This person is correct. However, one can prove it to be rigged very easily. Since there lacks any crediable proof of it being rigged, despite the ease of proving it rigged via statistical analysis, one can correctly assume it is not rigged. If it were difficult to prove online poker being rigged then I could see the difficulty in the argument that it can neither be proved or disproved (like God) but this is not such a case. This is more like the theory of relativity in which scientists may not be able to prove it to be valid but they can devise plenty of experiments that would prove it to be false.

    On a side note, despite readers of this site posting the link to this thread on message boards all over the place (usually in threads where some yahoo is claiming online poker is rigged) and plenty more coming to this site to debate me personally, NOT ONE has accepted the challenge of providing their hand histories as proof of what they claim.

     
    Gunners
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    Posted: Aug. 2, 2010 - 4:11 PM ET #4

    Sigh: Online Poker Still Isn’t Rigged

    by Bill Rini on May 31, 2010

    Someone just posted a comment on my 2005 post about why online poker is not rigged and I think it brings up some interesting points I haven’t necessarily covered before. So instead of responding where it will be buried in a 5 year old post, I’ll respond to “duh” here.

    Warning a lot of sarcasim
    The numbers you see in this post are mostly fictional but I hope u get my drift
    @ gavin

    You actually believe pokersites are happy with 1 mil as opposed to 100 mill. OK sure I believe you, but only because you said it.

    My common sence tells me that without fishes you dont have a pokersite or at least not one that makes money. All you have are some regs playing other regs obviously a pokersite is more than happy with that.LOL

    Because on any of the big sites, playing cashgames with all regs at your table is why we play poker. We dont want to play weaker bad players, rather loose/flip money with regs.

    The only way a pokersite can keep fish not losing their entire savings, mortgage etc etc to regs is to rig the deck. I mean cmon where’s your common sense, luck plays a part thats why regs lose too often, suuuuure. Its funny though that these fishes never seem to be lucky when playing live, yes they might win a few hands down to luck but beat me or shall I say kill me the way they do online NEVER.

    Actually, it wasn’t until recently that many card rooms figured out that you make money on the fish, not the sharks. In fact, some rooms still haven’t figured that out. I guess I was fortunate to work at online poker rooms who got it very early but I still talk to people who work at poker rooms and various affiliates and they still don’t seem to understand how the poker ecosystem works.

    So, if you’re telling me people too dumb to figure out how the poker money flows through the system would then be smart enough to rig the game in favor of the fish, I find that rather hard to accept.

    And even though we’ve seen countless examples of poker rooms letting serious bugs slip through the system (awarding the pot to the wrong player, security/encryption flaws, etc) how is it that nobody has been caught rigging the game for the fish? Billions and billions of hands dealt and not a single person has been able to find any abnormalities.

    In fact, when I worked at Party we were contacted by a world famous economist who wanted access to a few billion hand histories because he wanted to prove that poker was a skill game. We were in the process of discussing details when another big name poker room stepped in and offered to supply the data. Now, why would two poker rooms get into a pissing contest over supplying their hand histories if they were rigging the game?

    And before anybody talks about UltimateBet and Absolute, they were not rigging the games to favor one player over another. They were allowing players to cheat. That’s different from rigging the game. The outcomes were not changed to favor any player. They did have a backdoor that allowed players to see their opponent’s hole cards but the cards were still dealt as they normally would.

    It’s not impossible to rig the game but a lot harder than most people think. Maybe there is some no-name poker room rigging the games but the larger the room (in terms of players) the less likely it is.

    I litterally dont stand a chance when playing online agaisnt the weakest of players. Why is it that they always wake up with a hand, always and i mean always have what they are drawing to if a 3 flush comes and they bet they show suited connectors, if the board pairs and they bet the river its a boat. When you’ve seen as many hands as i have(over a mill)you cant help but to become suspicous.

    What I think of online bingo I mean poker, its TV poker all I seem to see are huge hands, isnt it suppose to be hard to hit a pair let alone constant sets, straights and flushes. Always one hand over an other. Iam scared to get it in with aces because I know im only a coinflip vs any 2. Live im licking my chops as I know its hard to make something. Online though pokersites wants me to have aces becuase the fish cant fold k8o to an allin bet.

    Actually, one mistake I see very often with players is that they think they can play the same level online as in a live casino. At The Hustler in Los Angeles I had no problem sitting down at the $25/$50 fixed limit. In fact, I would normally crush the game. But there’s no way I could play at that limit online. The highest limit online where I showed a profit (and not even a healthy profit) was $10/$20.

    Why do sites rig the deck this way, well for obvious reasons. What I see a lot of people overlook is the fact that by doing this not only do fish continue playing on their site, the site makes a hell of lot more money than one would think. Take Stars as an example 300k players, 10% regs and 90% fish. If fish stop playing Stars are left with 30k regs might aswell stop doing business as its not profitable for them no longer.

    That’s actually a pretty interesting point. It’s true that about 90% of poker players are net losers. So isn’t it funny that so many people consider themselves winning players? I’ve never met anybody who’s ever admitted to being a losing player.

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    Sigh: Online Poker Still Isn’t Rigged

    by Bill Rini on May 31, 2010

    Someone just posted a comment on my 2005 post about why online poker is not rigged and I think it brings up some interesting points I haven’t necessarily covered before. So instead of responding where it will be buried in a 5 year old post, I’ll respond to “duh” here.

    Warning a lot of sarcasim
    The numbers you see in this post are mostly fictional but I hope u get my drift
    @ gavin

    You actually believe pokersites are happy with 1 mil as opposed to 100 mill. OK sure I believe you, but only because you said it.

    My common sence tells me that without fishes you dont have a pokersite or at least not one that makes money. All you have are some regs playing other regs obviously a pokersite is more than happy with that.LOL

    Because on any of the big sites, playing cashgames with all regs at your table is why we play poker. We dont want to play weaker bad players, rather loose/flip money with regs.

    The only way a pokersite can keep fish not losing their entire savings, mortgage etc etc to regs is to rig the deck. I mean cmon where’s your common sense, luck plays a part thats why regs lose too often, suuuuure. Its funny though that these fishes never seem to be lucky when playing live, yes they might win a few hands down to luck but beat me or shall I say kill me the way they do online NEVER.

    Actually, it wasn’t until recently that many card rooms figured out that you make money on the fish, not the sharks. In fact, some rooms still haven’t figured that out. I guess I was fortunate to work at online poker rooms who got it very early but I still talk to people who work at poker rooms and various affiliates and they still don’t seem to understand how the poker ecosystem works.

    So, if you’re telling me people too dumb to figure out how the poker money flows through the system would then be smart enough to rig the game in favor of the fish, I find that rather hard to accept.

    And even though we’ve seen countless examples of poker rooms letting serious bugs slip through the system (awarding the pot to the wrong player, security/encryption flaws, etc) how is it that nobody has been caught rigging the game for the fish? Billions and billions of hands dealt and not a single person has been able to find any abnormalities.

    In fact, when I worked at Party we were contacted by a world famous economist who wanted access to a few billion hand histories because he wanted to prove that poker was a skill game. We were in the process of discussing details when another big name poker room stepped in and offered to supply the data. Now, why would two poker rooms get into a pissing contest over supplying their hand histories if they were rigging the game?

    And before anybody talks about UltimateBet and Absolute, they were not rigging the games to favor one player over another. They were allowing players to cheat. That’s different from rigging the game. The outcomes were not changed to favor any player. They did have a backdoor that allowed players to see their opponent’s hole cards but the cards were still dealt as they normally would.

    It’s not impossible to rig the game but a lot harder than most people think. Maybe there is some no-name poker room rigging the games but the larger the room (in terms of players) the less likely it is.

    I litterally dont stand a chance when playing online agaisnt the weakest of players. Why is it that they always wake up with a hand, always and i mean always have what they are drawing to if a 3 flush comes and they bet they show suited connectors, if the board pairs and they bet the river its a boat. When you’ve seen as many hands as i have(over a mill)you cant help but to become suspicous.

    What I think of online bingo I mean poker, its TV poker all I seem to see are huge hands, isnt it suppose to be hard to hit a pair let alone constant sets, straights and flushes. Always one hand over an other. Iam scared to get it in with aces because I know im only a coinflip vs any 2. Live im licking my chops as I know its hard to make something. Online though pokersites wants me to have aces becuase the fish cant fold k8o to an allin bet.

    Actually, one mistake I see very often with players is that they think they can play the same level online as in a live casino. At The Hustler in Los Angeles I had no problem sitting down at the $25/$50 fixed limit. In fact, I would normally crush the game. But there’s no way I could play at that limit online. The highest limit online where I showed a profit (and not even a healthy profit) was $10/$20.

    Why do sites rig the deck this way, well for obvious reasons. What I see a lot of people overlook is the fact that by doing this not only do fish continue playing on their site, the site makes a hell of lot more money than one would think. Take Stars as an example 300k players, 10% regs and 90% fish. If fish stop playing Stars are left with 30k regs might aswell stop doing business as its not profitable for them no longer.

    That’s actually a pretty interesting point. It’s true that about 90% of poker players are net losers. So isn’t it funny that so many people consider themselves winning players? I’ve never met anybody who’s ever admitted to being a losing player.

     
    Gunners
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    Posted: Aug. 2, 2010 - 4:11 PM ET #5

    You know where I’ve also seen that? When I was a stockbroker. I never met a client who lost money in the stock market. I never met anybody who ever admitted to losing money in the 1987 market crash. None. Everybody felt the market was too high and pulled out just before the crash.

    I even had guys who would trade with me and tell me they were up trading for the month and I would go over their trades and they were down. Way down.

    The vast majority of people who tell you they’re winning players are liars.

    Face it companies like this are dependant on their fishes, if they dont rig the deck fishes will lose everything to the regs, smarten up and leave. Stars cant afford not to rig the deck.

    Or they could spend millions upon millions on marketing.

    This whole argument is so flawed it’s hard to know where to start. This argument only works if one believes that the size of the poker market is fixed and finite. But we know that’s not true. One has only to look at Poker Scout to see that the overall market size is still increasing.

    To the people that do not believe that unfair, greedy, shitty, no morals or standards people exist who blatantly steal your deposits(the pokerroom owners etc etc)prob the mafia. I say I too believe in fairytales and Superman is real. Heck even God almighty himself came to me and told me himself that I am the only person that can prove he exists.

    Anywayz the bottom line is online poker cant be rigged because, they just wouldnt do it. If you can make 10 mill a year, why on earth would you want to make 10 billion a year. You just wouldnt risk it to make that little bit more.LOLLLL

    Again, another faulty argument. First off, many of these companies are publicly traded. PartyGaming, 888, etc would all have a hard time explaining a sudden windfall. Likewise, any company who wasn’t rigging the games would be screaming bloody murder because they know what your expected ROI is.

    That doesn’t mean that there isn’t some shady dude sitting in a shack in Costa Rica ripping people off but why would you pick poker? You can use hand histories to prove that a game is rigged. Why not casino? People will pump money into a slot machine forever regardless of the payout. And there’s no hand histories. Or blackjack. Or any game where the odds are in the houses favor.

    One of the other major flaws in this argument is there are so many legitimate ways the poker room can make more money. Shortening the time to act by 1 second would translate into millions for PokerStars. They can change how the rake is calculated (e.g. instead of .10 on every $1 make it .01 on over .10). I could list at least 50 completely legitimate things a poker room could do that would translate into huge profits.

    The beats/cold decks etc etc seems so surreal to everyone except a handfull of posters. I went through a number of blogs that have this discussion, what i have realized is that the people that say it isnt rigged are always in the minority.

    And after having had this conversation more times than you’ve read blog posts about it I have yet to see a single person offer any proof.

    Or let’s go back to the 90% fish to 10% “regs” numbers. If only 10% of the players are winning players and they’re the ones getting cold decked, why would the majority of people claim that it’s rigged? Are the fish complaining because they’re winning too much?

    Wouldn’t it be faaaaaar more likely that there are a lot of players who aren’t as good as they think they are and use the crutch of the site being rigged to explain why they can’t beat the game?

    And finally if I had a fair deal I probably would have been up more than triple to what im up now( yes iam a winning player who thinks online is rigged to fck).

    Like I’ve said before, I’ve never met someone who thinks online poker is rigged who admits to being a losing player. Yet, of all of the professional players I know, all the way from 12-tabling micro-limits grinders to high stakes players, none of them think it’s rigged.

    Taking away an allin pot of you is worth double, if I start with 100 and ship 20 allin and win i make 120 if i lose im on 80 difference in my roll is 40. Some people tend to forget this and say well i lost 1 buyin, actually you lost 2 buyins.

    I guess that’s one way to look at it if you were a 100% favorite to win and still ended up losing. I mean, this logic just sounds so whacky. It assumes that you are guaranteed to win when you get your money in ahead but you also get full credit when you get your money in behind and suck out.

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    You know where I’ve also seen that? When I was a stockbroker. I never met a client who lost money in the stock market. I never met anybody who ever admitted to losing money in the 1987 market crash. None. Everybody felt the market was too high and pulled out just before the crash.

    I even had guys who would trade with me and tell me they were up trading for the month and I would go over their trades and they were down. Way down.

    The vast majority of people who tell you they’re winning players are liars.

    Face it companies like this are dependant on their fishes, if they dont rig the deck fishes will lose everything to the regs, smarten up and leave. Stars cant afford not to rig the deck.

    Or they could spend millions upon millions on marketing.

    This whole argument is so flawed it’s hard to know where to start. This argument only works if one believes that the size of the poker market is fixed and finite. But we know that’s not true. One has only to look at Poker Scout to see that the overall market size is still increasing.

    To the people that do not believe that unfair, greedy, shitty, no morals or standards people exist who blatantly steal your deposits(the pokerroom owners etc etc)prob the mafia. I say I too believe in fairytales and Superman is real. Heck even God almighty himself came to me and told me himself that I am the only person that can prove he exists.

    Anywayz the bottom line is online poker cant be rigged because, they just wouldnt do it. If you can make 10 mill a year, why on earth would you want to make 10 billion a year. You just wouldnt risk it to make that little bit more.LOLLLL

    Again, another faulty argument. First off, many of these companies are publicly traded. PartyGaming, 888, etc would all have a hard time explaining a sudden windfall. Likewise, any company who wasn’t rigging the games would be screaming bloody murder because they know what your expected ROI is.

    That doesn’t mean that there isn’t some shady dude sitting in a shack in Costa Rica ripping people off but why would you pick poker? You can use hand histories to prove that a game is rigged. Why not casino? People will pump money into a slot machine forever regardless of the payout. And there’s no hand histories. Or blackjack. Or any game where the odds are in the houses favor.

    One of the other major flaws in this argument is there are so many legitimate ways the poker room can make more money. Shortening the time to act by 1 second would translate into millions for PokerStars. They can change how the rake is calculated (e.g. instead of .10 on every $1 make it .01 on over .10). I could list at least 50 completely legitimate things a poker room could do that would translate into huge profits.

    The beats/cold decks etc etc seems so surreal to everyone except a handfull of posters. I went through a number of blogs that have this discussion, what i have realized is that the people that say it isnt rigged are always in the minority.

    And after having had this conversation more times than you’ve read blog posts about it I have yet to see a single person offer any proof.

    Or let’s go back to the 90% fish to 10% “regs” numbers. If only 10% of the players are winning players and they’re the ones getting cold decked, why would the majority of people claim that it’s rigged? Are the fish complaining because they’re winning too much?

    Wouldn’t it be faaaaaar more likely that there are a lot of players who aren’t as good as they think they are and use the crutch of the site being rigged to explain why they can’t beat the game?

    And finally if I had a fair deal I probably would have been up more than triple to what im up now( yes iam a winning player who thinks online is rigged to fck).

    Like I’ve said before, I’ve never met someone who thinks online poker is rigged who admits to being a losing player. Yet, of all of the professional players I know, all the way from 12-tabling micro-limits grinders to high stakes players, none of them think it’s rigged.

    Taking away an allin pot of you is worth double, if I start with 100 and ship 20 allin and win i make 120 if i lose im on 80 difference in my roll is 40. Some people tend to forget this and say well i lost 1 buyin, actually you lost 2 buyins.

    I guess that’s one way to look at it if you were a 100% favorite to win and still ended up losing. I mean, this logic just sounds so whacky. It assumes that you are guaranteed to win when you get your money in ahead but you also get full credit when you get your money in behind and suck out.

     
    Gunners
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    Posted: Aug. 2, 2010 - 4:44 PM ET #6

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    Motivations For Rigging Online Poker

    by Bill Rini on December 1, 2005

    I’m not sure whether it’s funny or sad that even after my post on why online poker is not rigged, I still get people emailing me trying to convince me otherwise. The funny/sad part is that despite the fact that I’ve all but called people who make that claim without hand histories or other empirical evidence idiots I continue to receive 1 – 5 emails a week telling me some bad beat story and QED, online poker is rigged. So with that in mind, I’m going to expound a bit on some new points as well as clarify previously made points.

    First, let’s look at a casino’s motivation to rig an online poker game. The standard theory goes that the casinos deal action flops to generate more action and thus bigger rake. Fortunately, like most online poker is rigged assertions, this is patently false. Anybody who has ever played low limit poker either online or live in a casino knows that the house doesn’t need to deal an action flop to get lots of action. The average low limit hand is likely to have four or more players seeing the flop and at least three seeing the river. That’s not just online. This happens at every casino I’ve ever been to. There’s no such thing as a tight low limit table. Hell, I was at the Bellagio the other night in an $8/$16 game and guys were capping it pre-flop with A6o from UTG. With four or five players seeing the flop, every flop is going to be an action flop because with that many players, somebody had to hit something and at least one or two others picked up draws (to many low limit players, runner runner is still a draw).

    But let’s just suppose that this casino owner is really, really greedy and he wants to milk every last penny out of the table. Wouldn’t rigging an action flop generate more rake? Surprisingly, generating more action probably wouldn’t increase the house’s take. Play 10,000 hands of $5/$10 full and then play 10,000 hands of $5/$10 6 max and tell me where you pay the most rake. Actually, I’ll make it easy and give you the answer; you pay more rake at the $5/$10 6 max game. With less players possible in each hand and the fact that 6 max games tend to have only two or possibly three people seeing a flop (and many hands never going to the river), the hands get played out faster and the house collects more rake. Dealing an action flop would only cause the hands to last longer which would negate any extra rake the house makes.

    Still don’t believe me? Let’s do the math. Let’s assume that a game that isn’t rigged sees only 10 more hands per hour than a rigged game that generates a lot of action. Let’s use 50 and 40 as our examples. Now let’s make another powerful assumption; the online casinos can’t juice every hand for action flops. If they did, it would surely show up in Poker Tracker results and would be glaringly obvious to even the statistically inept. And I think this is also a safe assumption since only the most deranged tin-foil hat wearing accusers have ever attempted to stipulate that every hand is rigged. I like keeping the math simple so perhaps we can assume that the room juices 10% of the hands. That is likely a monstrously gross over-estimate due to the fact that even juicing 10% of the hands would lead to peculiar Poker Tracker stats but I’m extremely lazy and would rather over-compensate than break out a calculator.

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    Motivations For Rigging Online Poker

    by Bill Rini on December 1, 2005

    I’m not sure whether it’s funny or sad that even after my post on why online poker is not rigged, I still get people emailing me trying to convince me otherwise. The funny/sad part is that despite the fact that I’ve all but called people who make that claim without hand histories or other empirical evidence idiots I continue to receive 1 – 5 emails a week telling me some bad beat story and QED, online poker is rigged. So with that in mind, I’m going to expound a bit on some new points as well as clarify previously made points.

    First, let’s look at a casino’s motivation to rig an online poker game. The standard theory goes that the casinos deal action flops to generate more action and thus bigger rake. Fortunately, like most online poker is rigged assertions, this is patently false. Anybody who has ever played low limit poker either online or live in a casino knows that the house doesn’t need to deal an action flop to get lots of action. The average low limit hand is likely to have four or more players seeing the flop and at least three seeing the river. That’s not just online. This happens at every casino I’ve ever been to. There’s no such thing as a tight low limit table. Hell, I was at the Bellagio the other night in an $8/$16 game and guys were capping it pre-flop with A6o from UTG. With four or five players seeing the flop, every flop is going to be an action flop because with that many players, somebody had to hit something and at least one or two others picked up draws (to many low limit players, runner runner is still a draw).

    But let’s just suppose that this casino owner is really, really greedy and he wants to milk every last penny out of the table. Wouldn’t rigging an action flop generate more rake? Surprisingly, generating more action probably wouldn’t increase the house’s take. Play 10,000 hands of $5/$10 full and then play 10,000 hands of $5/$10 6 max and tell me where you pay the most rake. Actually, I’ll make it easy and give you the answer; you pay more rake at the $5/$10 6 max game. With less players possible in each hand and the fact that 6 max games tend to have only two or possibly three people seeing a flop (and many hands never going to the river), the hands get played out faster and the house collects more rake. Dealing an action flop would only cause the hands to last longer which would negate any extra rake the house makes.

    Still don’t believe me? Let’s do the math. Let’s assume that a game that isn’t rigged sees only 10 more hands per hour than a rigged game that generates a lot of action. Let’s use 50 and 40 as our examples. Now let’s make another powerful assumption; the online casinos can’t juice every hand for action flops. If they did, it would surely show up in Poker Tracker results and would be glaringly obvious to even the statistically inept. And I think this is also a safe assumption since only the most deranged tin-foil hat wearing accusers have ever attempted to stipulate that every hand is rigged. I like keeping the math simple so perhaps we can assume that the room juices 10% of the hands. That is likely a monstrously gross over-estimate due to the fact that even juicing 10% of the hands would lead to peculiar Poker Tracker stats but I’m extremely lazy and would rather over-compensate than break out a calculator.

     
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    Posted: Aug. 2, 2010 - 4:45 PM ET #7

    The rake range for PartyPoker on lower limit full games is $1 – $3. Let’s say the average rake is $2 (mid range between $1 and $3) and that a juiced deal will max the rake out at $3.

    50 normal hands would yield a rake of $100.
    45 normal hands would yield a rake of $90.

    If they juice 10% of the hands (4.5 hands) and make an extra dollar per hand, the casino rakes an additional $4.50 for a total of $94.50. Now, even the thickest of skulls must admit that a casino would rather make $100 than $94.50 so where exactly is the incentive to create action flops?

    Obviously any casino that ever got caught doing something dirty would be out of business within days so given the rather disappointing results from actively rigging games, what could a casino do to increase its rake without rigging games?

    • Decrease the time to act. Most casinos give anywhere from 20 to 30 seconds for a player to act. Reducing that time down to 10 or 15 seconds would increase the number of hands played per hour.
    • Implement time banks. Similar to the suggestion above, time banks would penalize players who take too long to act and would speed up the play of hands.
    • Auto-post blinds automatically instead of making it optional.
    • Increase the rake

    Now, given the few off the cuff suggestions above, why would a casino risk its multimillion revenue stream to get a little extra rake when it could do any of the above and accomplish even better results legally?

    The second major problem with the online poker is rigged accusation (if the above isn’t enough to convince you) is a result of logical inconsistencies. If you were to spend your time searching around poker message boards (as I have) you would soon discover a pattern that I like to refer to as the circular logic of paranoia. Essentially, what you’ll find are people who say that Site A is rigged but Site B is ok. The logic becomes circular when someone else says that Site B is rigged but Site A is ok. Both parties are convinced that online poker is rigged but they are as equally convinced that the site they play on is not. Either one of them is correct (and the other incorrect) or both are incorrect. It’s logically impossible for both to be right. In other words, even within the world of people who are convinced that online poker is rigged, they can’t even agree on which sites are and are not rigged.

    The far more likely scenario is that different sites have different personalities. For instance, when Full Tilt first launched it was frequented by pretty hard-core players. The games were tight and very tough. As the site has grown, that profile has changed but it is nowhere near the complete maniac playground Party is. Personally, I got crushed when I went from a weak/tight site (Paradise) to Party. It took several tries for me to adjust to the raw aggression of the Party tables and avoid getting lured into becoming too aggressive myself. Overall it made me a better player because I can now play against a wider variety of playing styles but if I can certainly see why someone ignorant of hand strengths to think a site is rigged. Fortunately, though deceptively simple to believe, it’s highly unlikely. Aces will get cracked far more often on a loose aggressive site than they will on a weak tight site. If you’re not adjusting your game to the types of opponents you’re up against it’s likely you’re going to experience beats that you normally don’t. And given the choice between believing an argument that is dependant on circular logic or one that seems self-evident to those who have played in various types of games, I’ll take the later.

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    The rake range for PartyPoker on lower limit full games is $1 – $3. Let’s say the average rake is $2 (mid range between $1 and $3) and that a juiced deal will max the rake out at $3.

    50 normal hands would yield a rake of $100.
    45 normal hands would yield a rake of $90.

    If they juice 10% of the hands (4.5 hands) and make an extra dollar per hand, the casino rakes an additional $4.50 for a total of $94.50. Now, even the thickest of skulls must admit that a casino would rather make $100 than $94.50 so where exactly is the incentive to create action flops?

    Obviously any casino that ever got caught doing something dirty would be out of business within days so given the rather disappointing results from actively rigging games, what could a casino do to increase its rake without rigging games?

    • Decrease the time to act. Most casinos give anywhere from 20 to 30 seconds for a player to act. Reducing that time down to 10 or 15 seconds would increase the number of hands played per hour.
    • Implement time banks. Similar to the suggestion above, time banks would penalize players who take too long to act and would speed up the play of hands.
    • Auto-post blinds automatically instead of making it optional.
    • Increase the rake

    Now, given the few off the cuff suggestions above, why would a casino risk its multimillion revenue stream to get a little extra rake when it could do any of the above and accomplish even better results legally?

    The second major problem with the online poker is rigged accusation (if the above isn’t enough to convince you) is a result of logical inconsistencies. If you were to spend your time searching around poker message boards (as I have) you would soon discover a pattern that I like to refer to as the circular logic of paranoia. Essentially, what you’ll find are people who say that Site A is rigged but Site B is ok. The logic becomes circular when someone else says that Site B is rigged but Site A is ok. Both parties are convinced that online poker is rigged but they are as equally convinced that the site they play on is not. Either one of them is correct (and the other incorrect) or both are incorrect. It’s logically impossible for both to be right. In other words, even within the world of people who are convinced that online poker is rigged, they can’t even agree on which sites are and are not rigged.

    The far more likely scenario is that different sites have different personalities. For instance, when Full Tilt first launched it was frequented by pretty hard-core players. The games were tight and very tough. As the site has grown, that profile has changed but it is nowhere near the complete maniac playground Party is. Personally, I got crushed when I went from a weak/tight site (Paradise) to Party. It took several tries for me to adjust to the raw aggression of the Party tables and avoid getting lured into becoming too aggressive myself. Overall it made me a better player because I can now play against a wider variety of playing styles but if I can certainly see why someone ignorant of hand strengths to think a site is rigged. Fortunately, though deceptively simple to believe, it’s highly unlikely. Aces will get cracked far more often on a loose aggressive site than they will on a weak tight site. If you’re not adjusting your game to the types of opponents you’re up against it’s likely you’re going to experience beats that you normally don’t. And given the choice between believing an argument that is dependant on circular logic or one that seems self-evident to those who have played in various types of games, I’ll take the later.

     
    Gunners
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    Posted: Aug. 2, 2010 - 4:45 PM ET #8

    A slight variation on this theme is the argument that online casinos make certain players win or lose to suit their business objectives. One type of argument states that when you cash out of a site then you start losing. This phenomenon is often referred to as the Cash Out Curse. Another variation is that online casinos want the fish to win and the better players to lose because the fish give more action and thus make the site more money. All variations of this argument stipulate that the card room has built a sophisticated system that can profile player actions and then adjust the cards based on some set of criteria.

    The big question is whether or not this is plausible. First, let’s look at the casino’s motivation. According to the poker is rigged theory, poor players are good for the site and people who cash out need to be punished. Are poor players good for a site? In theory, poor players keep good players coming back because they can beat them. But if you purposely make the good players lose so the poor players can win, the most likely outcome is that you have a site full of bad players that the good players can’t beat because the casino is fixing the cards. The good players would quit playing at that site and move on thus your core clientele, the ones who eight and ten table and generate tons of rake, would bolt and you would be left with nothing but recreational players who would be doing nothing more than pushing chips back and forth to each other until they all go broke to the rake.

    Another logical flaw in the argument is that a table has nine players and only one of them can win the pot (ignoring split pots). If the site is rewarding one player they are screwing the other eight. How would the site stay in business by rewarding one player and screwing eight? Mathematically this doesn’t even make sense. The most likely response you’ll receive when you pose this dilemma to the online poker is rigged accuser is that the site spreads out the wins across the other seven (the accuser is never lucky enough to benefit). If that were the case then it sounds like no rigging is going on at all unless we are to assume the site’s owner has singled out a single individual at the table and decided to screw him over. I’m willing to entertain arguments that at least have a thread connecting them to reality but this simply isn’t one of them.

    Additionally, we have to believe that the casino hopes to punish people who cash out. What would be their motivation for this? Perhaps the thinking is that by causing someone to lose money they would re-deposit. While plausible it’s highly unlikely as the casino doesn’t make money on cash that isn’t in play anyway. If I have a $3000 bankroll and I play $3/$6 then the likelihood of anything more than $300 or $600 of my bankroll being in play at any given time is almost zero. In other words, when I sit down at four $3/$6 tables with $150 each, the casino is only earning rake on the $600 in play. The other $2400 generates no income for them (unless they have some sort of interest bearing money fund which would be minimal anyway). Why would the casino care if I pulled out $1000 to take a trip to the Bahamas next month? I’m still actively wagering the same $300 – $600. And even if they did throw me a streak of bad cards and I lost some money and had to re-deposit, I’m either going to continue playing at the $3/$6 level and create a net wash for the casino (they neither make or lose additional money) or I’m going to move down in limits to $2/$4 and generate even less rake. If the casino was going to rig the game they would motivate you to play at a higher limit rather than forcing you to play a smaller game.

    Now even if you dismiss all of what has been presented above, this entire line of arguments relies on some very critical, but unlikely, assumptions. First, you have to develop a system smart enough to do all of the above. While possible, if you look at the overall quality of online poker software, it seems highly unlikely. For instance, are we to believe that PartyPoker, who can’t even keep the number of players at each table up to date in the lobby, has built a highly complex player ranking system that not only figures out how to rig each hand but is also smart enough to cull through the millions of players in their database to figure out who is the most deserving of being dealt good and bad hands. As a software engineer I know that this is possible but as a software engineer I also know that software engineers capable of creating such a system wouldn’t leave so many blatant errors in the client software. Even a minor bug would eventually show its ugly head once enough hands were analyzed. And with no such anomalies having been discovered in the billions of hands that have been dealt one must either assume that the card rooms have the best software engineers in the world or accept that the accusation is false.

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    A slight variation on this theme is the argument that online casinos make certain players win or lose to suit their business objectives. One type of argument states that when you cash out of a site then you start losing. This phenomenon is often referred to as the Cash Out Curse. Another variation is that online casinos want the fish to win and the better players to lose because the fish give more action and thus make the site more money. All variations of this argument stipulate that the card room has built a sophisticated system that can profile player actions and then adjust the cards based on some set of criteria.

    The big question is whether or not this is plausible. First, let’s look at the casino’s motivation. According to the poker is rigged theory, poor players are good for the site and people who cash out need to be punished. Are poor players good for a site? In theory, poor players keep good players coming back because they can beat them. But if you purposely make the good players lose so the poor players can win, the most likely outcome is that you have a site full of bad players that the good players can’t beat because the casino is fixing the cards. The good players would quit playing at that site and move on thus your core clientele, the ones who eight and ten table and generate tons of rake, would bolt and you would be left with nothing but recreational players who would be doing nothing more than pushing chips back and forth to each other until they all go broke to the rake.

    Another logical flaw in the argument is that a table has nine players and only one of them can win the pot (ignoring split pots). If the site is rewarding one player they are screwing the other eight. How would the site stay in business by rewarding one player and screwing eight? Mathematically this doesn’t even make sense. The most likely response you’ll receive when you pose this dilemma to the online poker is rigged accuser is that the site spreads out the wins across the other seven (the accuser is never lucky enough to benefit). If that were the case then it sounds like no rigging is going on at all unless we are to assume the site’s owner has singled out a single individual at the table and decided to screw him over. I’m willing to entertain arguments that at least have a thread connecting them to reality but this simply isn’t one of them.

    Additionally, we have to believe that the casino hopes to punish people who cash out. What would be their motivation for this? Perhaps the thinking is that by causing someone to lose money they would re-deposit. While plausible it’s highly unlikely as the casino doesn’t make money on cash that isn’t in play anyway. If I have a $3000 bankroll and I play $3/$6 then the likelihood of anything more than $300 or $600 of my bankroll being in play at any given time is almost zero. In other words, when I sit down at four $3/$6 tables with $150 each, the casino is only earning rake on the $600 in play. The other $2400 generates no income for them (unless they have some sort of interest bearing money fund which would be minimal anyway). Why would the casino care if I pulled out $1000 to take a trip to the Bahamas next month? I’m still actively wagering the same $300 – $600. And even if they did throw me a streak of bad cards and I lost some money and had to re-deposit, I’m either going to continue playing at the $3/$6 level and create a net wash for the casino (they neither make or lose additional money) or I’m going to move down in limits to $2/$4 and generate even less rake. If the casino was going to rig the game they would motivate you to play at a higher limit rather than forcing you to play a smaller game.

    Now even if you dismiss all of what has been presented above, this entire line of arguments relies on some very critical, but unlikely, assumptions. First, you have to develop a system smart enough to do all of the above. While possible, if you look at the overall quality of online poker software, it seems highly unlikely. For instance, are we to believe that PartyPoker, who can’t even keep the number of players at each table up to date in the lobby, has built a highly complex player ranking system that not only figures out how to rig each hand but is also smart enough to cull through the millions of players in their database to figure out who is the most deserving of being dealt good and bad hands. As a software engineer I know that this is possible but as a software engineer I also know that software engineers capable of creating such a system wouldn’t leave so many blatant errors in the client software. Even a minor bug would eventually show its ugly head once enough hands were analyzed. And with no such anomalies having been discovered in the billions of hands that have been dealt one must either assume that the card rooms have the best software engineers in the world or accept that the accusation is false.

     
    Gunners
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    Posted: Aug. 2, 2010 - 4:46 PM ET #9

    The second major flaw in this argument is that the CEO of CheatingPokerSite.com can’t write this code him/herself. They would have to instruct the software engineers to do this and anybody who worked on or around this code would notice it so they would need to be sworn to secrecy as well. In a large company like Party that could mean anywhere from 10 to 20 software engineers would have direct knowledge that the site is cheating customers. How valuable is that information? Once even one person knows they can blackmail the company for any amount of money. The more popular the site is the higher the stakes for the company. They would need to be paying those software engineers millions upon millions of dollars a year in hush money and even then, if even one of them feels disgruntled he’s going to snitch and bring the whole thing down.

    Lastly, the programmers would need to know what your actions are going to be. If I get dealt KJ off suit in early position I’ll probably fold that hand at most tables. I’ll play it in middle or late position in an un-raised pot. I might even raise with it myself if I’m in late position and it’s been folded to me. But how are the site’s programmers going to know how I’m going to play this hand? My decision to play or not to play is a complex mix of factors such as position, who else is in the pot, whether it’s been raised or not, whether or not I can get other players to fold, etc. along with a small dash of whatever mood I happen to be in during that hand. Even if you could predict when, where, and how I would play that hand, the software couldn’t possibly also predict how every other opponent will play their hands against me. Since their actions will impact how I play the hand it would be a monumental software development effort to build a system so sophisticated that it could calculate all of this information in real time. They can’t even build a bot that can beat a human but we’re supposed to believe that they’ve built a system that can not only deal you second best hands but predict how every single player at the table will play their hands?

    We’ve examined the motivations of why the poker site might want to cheat customers but I think it’s equally important to examine the psychology of why people would speculate that online poker is rigged without any evidence to support the claim. It’s easy to make fun of such paranoid rants and think these people of some form of lesser intelligence. I know because I do it often. But it really doesn’t explain why seemingly intelligent people make the claim.

    For anybody who has gained any sort of mastery of poker they understand that poker is a game of many frustrations. You can be playing perfect poker and still lose. You can completely outplay your opponent and still lose. The beauty of the game is that even the fish can beat the sharks every once in awhile which is what keeps the fish coming back to lose even more. If the sharks always devoured the fish the fish would soon catch on and refuse to play. Those that prescribe to the online poker is rigged theory seem to lack this very fundamental understanding.

    The ego is a fragile aspect of human nature and losing a hand when you’re a 90% favorite to win can make one feel as if the system is rigged. It’s very easy to fall into the trap of thinking that you simply can’t lose to people who play as poorly as the opponents that you’ll find online. But that’s poker! Sometimes massive favorites lose. When that cruel mistress called Variance visits us at the poker table it can often lead many to search for a meaning. Unfortunately, even many well educated people don’t fully understand probability and so they equate losing with poor play (which it often is) and since they don’t believe themselves to be poor players, they are forced to find an alternative explanation.

    Blaming the site for being rigged serves the same psychological purpose as the belief that if one can just play at a high enough limit he can be a successful player. Both online and live players will often declare that they can’t seem to beat the $1/$2 limit but if they had the bankroll to play $30/$60 where the good players are they could be a winner. The erroneous nature of such utterances is obvious to anybody who has paid their dues at the micro limits and worked their way up to middle and high limit games. A major, major portion of being a winning player is learning how to play under a wide range of circumstances and against an array of opponent playing styles. If you’re at a table with seven players seeing every flop, your pocket aces are going to get cracked a lot more often than in a tight game where heads-up flops are the norm. Lots of callers favors suited connectors and other hands that can get the proper odds to draw. Heads up games favor big cards as you won’t often get the proper odds to draw. If you can’t make those adjustments, moving up in limits will only drain one’s bankroll even more quickly.

    You can sense the frustration felt by these players in their numerous message board and blog posts. Their arguments abandon reason and almost immediately nose dive into emotional rants filled with wild accusations, cursing, all-caps, and defensive attitudes. It’s quite obvious that these are not people who have coolly considered the facts and have arrived at a conclusion they wish others to consider. These postings tend to be an emotional outlet that allows the accuser to project his failures at the table onto some mysterious conspiracy out to punish his superior skills.

    This psychological barrier to admitting failure is not unique to the poker world. When I used to work on the brokerage industry it was more common than not to have clients attempt to convince you they profited on a trade when you’re staring at the transaction history which shows a massive loss. I’ve yet to meet anyone who lost money in the market crash of 1987. Everybody I’ve ever spoken to got their money out just days before the crash due to their savvy trading skills.

    People hate to admit failure. Poker seems like such a simple game that to admit defeat playing .50/$1 limit games seems like a reflection on their intellect. You almost never hear the online poker is rigged accuser saying that he is a mediocre or beginning player. No matter how low the limits the person is playing they will always claim to be a near expert in the game with at least a decade of experience playing live games. So the accusation is really an admission of their lack of understanding of how the game works and their frustration due to their skills not matching with how good they think they are.

    Until I’m shown empirical evidence of online poker being rigged, I’ll be forced to ridicule those who insist on advancing that theory.

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    The second major flaw in this argument is that the CEO of CheatingPokerSite.com can’t write this code him/herself. They would have to instruct the software engineers to do this and anybody who worked on or around this code would notice it so they would need to be sworn to secrecy as well. In a large company like Party that could mean anywhere from 10 to 20 software engineers would have direct knowledge that the site is cheating customers. How valuable is that information? Once even one person knows they can blackmail the company for any amount of money. The more popular the site is the higher the stakes for the company. They would need to be paying those software engineers millions upon millions of dollars a year in hush money and even then, if even one of them feels disgruntled he’s going to snitch and bring the whole thing down.

    Lastly, the programmers would need to know what your actions are going to be. If I get dealt KJ off suit in early position I’ll probably fold that hand at most tables. I’ll play it in middle or late position in an un-raised pot. I might even raise with it myself if I’m in late position and it’s been folded to me. But how are the site’s programmers going to know how I’m going to play this hand? My decision to play or not to play is a complex mix of factors such as position, who else is in the pot, whether it’s been raised or not, whether or not I can get other players to fold, etc. along with a small dash of whatever mood I happen to be in during that hand. Even if you could predict when, where, and how I would play that hand, the software couldn’t possibly also predict how every other opponent will play their hands against me. Since their actions will impact how I play the hand it would be a monumental software development effort to build a system so sophisticated that it could calculate all of this information in real time. They can’t even build a bot that can beat a human but we’re supposed to believe that they’ve built a system that can not only deal you second best hands but predict how every single player at the table will play their hands?

    We’ve examined the motivations of why the poker site might want to cheat customers but I think it’s equally important to examine the psychology of why people would speculate that online poker is rigged without any evidence to support the claim. It’s easy to make fun of such paranoid rants and think these people of some form of lesser intelligence. I know because I do it often. But it really doesn’t explain why seemingly intelligent people make the claim.

    For anybody who has gained any sort of mastery of poker they understand that poker is a game of many frustrations. You can be playing perfect poker and still lose. You can completely outplay your opponent and still lose. The beauty of the game is that even the fish can beat the sharks every once in awhile which is what keeps the fish coming back to lose even more. If the sharks always devoured the fish the fish would soon catch on and refuse to play. Those that prescribe to the online poker is rigged theory seem to lack this very fundamental understanding.

    The ego is a fragile aspect of human nature and losing a hand when you’re a 90% favorite to win can make one feel as if the system is rigged. It’s very easy to fall into the trap of thinking that you simply can’t lose to people who play as poorly as the opponents that you’ll find online. But that’s poker! Sometimes massive favorites lose. When that cruel mistress called Variance visits us at the poker table it can often lead many to search for a meaning. Unfortunately, even many well educated people don’t fully understand probability and so they equate losing with poor play (which it often is) and since they don’t believe themselves to be poor players, they are forced to find an alternative explanation.

    Blaming the site for being rigged serves the same psychological purpose as the belief that if one can just play at a high enough limit he can be a successful player. Both online and live players will often declare that they can’t seem to beat the $1/$2 limit but if they had the bankroll to play $30/$60 where the good players are they could be a winner. The erroneous nature of such utterances is obvious to anybody who has paid their dues at the micro limits and worked their way up to middle and high limit games. A major, major portion of being a winning player is learning how to play under a wide range of circumstances and against an array of opponent playing styles. If you’re at a table with seven players seeing every flop, your pocket aces are going to get cracked a lot more often than in a tight game where heads-up flops are the norm. Lots of callers favors suited connectors and other hands that can get the proper odds to draw. Heads up games favor big cards as you won’t often get the proper odds to draw. If you can’t make those adjustments, moving up in limits will only drain one’s bankroll even more quickly.

    You can sense the frustration felt by these players in their numerous message board and blog posts. Their arguments abandon reason and almost immediately nose dive into emotional rants filled with wild accusations, cursing, all-caps, and defensive attitudes. It’s quite obvious that these are not people who have coolly considered the facts and have arrived at a conclusion they wish others to consider. These postings tend to be an emotional outlet that allows the accuser to project his failures at the table onto some mysterious conspiracy out to punish his superior skills.

    This psychological barrier to admitting failure is not unique to the poker world. When I used to work on the brokerage industry it was more common than not to have clients attempt to convince you they profited on a trade when you’re staring at the transaction history which shows a massive loss. I’ve yet to meet anyone who lost money in the market crash of 1987. Everybody I’ve ever spoken to got their money out just days before the crash due to their savvy trading skills.

    People hate to admit failure. Poker seems like such a simple game that to admit defeat playing .50/$1 limit games seems like a reflection on their intellect. You almost never hear the online poker is rigged accuser saying that he is a mediocre or beginning player. No matter how low the limits the person is playing they will always claim to be a near expert in the game with at least a decade of experience playing live games. So the accusation is really an admission of their lack of understanding of how the game works and their frustration due to their skills not matching with how good they think they are.

    Until I’m shown empirical evidence of online poker being rigged, I’ll be forced to ridicule those who insist on advancing that theory.

     
    MajaWaja
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    Posted: Aug. 2, 2010 - 5:04 PM ET #10

    Great, you copy and pasted blogs from "Bill's Poker Blog" .......
    Outdated 2005 Blogs with no empirical evidence, hooray let's all read it
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    Great, you copy and pasted blogs from "Bill's Poker Blog" .......
    Outdated 2005 Blogs with no empirical evidence, hooray let's all read it
     
    Gunners
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    Posted: Aug. 2, 2010 - 5:30 PM ET #11

    Quote Originally Posted by MajaWaja:

    Great, you copy and pasted blogs from "Bill's Poker Blog" .......
    Outdated 2005 Blogs with no empirical evidence, hooray let's all read it

    there is evidence in it.  did you look at the hand histories he posted that prove to be normal? 

    have you posted hand histories that prove it's rigged? 

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    Quote Originally Posted by MajaWaja:

    Great, you copy and pasted blogs from "Bill's Poker Blog" .......
    Outdated 2005 Blogs with no empirical evidence, hooray let's all read it

    there is evidence in it.  did you look at the hand histories he posted that prove to be normal? 

    have you posted hand histories that prove it's rigged? 

     
    Gunners
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    Posted: Aug. 2, 2010 - 5:35 PM ET #12

    "You can sense the frustration felt by these players in their numerous message board and blog posts. Their arguments abandon reason and almost immediately nose dive into emotional rants filled with wild accusations, cursing, all-caps, and defensive attitudes. It’s quite obvious that these are not people who have coolly considered the facts and have arrived at a conclusion they wish others to consider. These postings tend to be an emotional outlet that allows the accuser to project his failures at the table onto some mysterious conspiracy out to punish his superior skills."

    you in a nut shell, MajaWaja

    Something i've tried to explain to you:

    "Lastly, the programmers would need to know what your actions are going to be. If I get dealt KJ off suit in early position I’ll probably fold that hand at most tables. I’ll play it in middle or late position in an un-raised pot. I might even raise with it myself if I’m in late position and it’s been folded to me. But how are the site’s programmers going to know how I’m going to play this hand? My decision to play or not to play is a complex mix of factors such as position, who else is in the pot, whether it’s been raised or not, whether or not I can get other players to fold, etc. along with a small dash of whatever mood I happen to be in during that hand. Even if you could predict when, where, and how I would play that hand, the software couldn’t possibly also predict how every other opponent will play their hands against me. Since their actions will impact how I play the hand it would be a monumental software development effort to build a system so sophisticated that it could calculate all of this information in real time. They can’t even build a bot that can beat a human but we’re supposed to believe that they’ve built a system that can not only deal you second best hands but predict how every single player at the table will play their hands?"

     

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    "You can sense the frustration felt by these players in their numerous message board and blog posts. Their arguments abandon reason and almost immediately nose dive into emotional rants filled with wild accusations, cursing, all-caps, and defensive attitudes. It’s quite obvious that these are not people who have coolly considered the facts and have arrived at a conclusion they wish others to consider. These postings tend to be an emotional outlet that allows the accuser to project his failures at the table onto some mysterious conspiracy out to punish his superior skills."

    you in a nut shell, MajaWaja

    Something i've tried to explain to you:

    "Lastly, the programmers would need to know what your actions are going to be. If I get dealt KJ off suit in early position I’ll probably fold that hand at most tables. I’ll play it in middle or late position in an un-raised pot. I might even raise with it myself if I’m in late position and it’s been folded to me. But how are the site’s programmers going to know how I’m going to play this hand? My decision to play or not to play is a complex mix of factors such as position, who else is in the pot, whether it’s been raised or not, whether or not I can get other players to fold, etc. along with a small dash of whatever mood I happen to be in during that hand. Even if you could predict when, where, and how I would play that hand, the software couldn’t possibly also predict how every other opponent will play their hands against me. Since their actions will impact how I play the hand it would be a monumental software development effort to build a system so sophisticated that it could calculate all of this information in real time. They can’t even build a bot that can beat a human but we’re supposed to believe that they’ve built a system that can not only deal you second best hands but predict how every single player at the table will play their hands?"

     

     
    MajaWaja
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    Posted: Aug. 2, 2010 - 5:46 PM ET #13

    I don't waste my time on children so Ill let you waste your own time after this because no one else will bother.

    Saying "But if it was rigged, it would show on the hand history" is not proof that its NOT rigged.

    The donkey posting in the articles chose to post another article 3 years later which you can read below (notice how I dont care to copy and paste the article) You can see him becoming smarter as he is at least confirming some of the poker cheats out there, although he's still stubborn with how wide-spread it is.

    https://www.billrini.com/2008/04/16/the-definitive-guide-to-online-poker-cheating/

    Again child, a blog from 2005 from someone that is presenting a one-sided view who doesn't have conclusive proof is not proof that people will credit you for being a good researcher. Go do some more research, don't just google it and find the first link that pops up. Try researching the contrary to widen your imagination. And post that you copy and pasted from Bill's Poker blog dont just post it and assume your data is credible

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    I don't waste my time on children so Ill let you waste your own time after this because no one else will bother.

    Saying "But if it was rigged, it would show on the hand history" is not proof that its NOT rigged.

    The donkey posting in the articles chose to post another article 3 years later which you can read below (notice how I dont care to copy and paste the article) You can see him becoming smarter as he is at least confirming some of the poker cheats out there, although he's still stubborn with how wide-spread it is.

    https://www.billrini.com/2008/04/16/the-definitive-guide-to-online-poker-cheating/

    Again child, a blog from 2005 from someone that is presenting a one-sided view who doesn't have conclusive proof is not proof that people will credit you for being a good researcher. Go do some more research, don't just google it and find the first link that pops up. Try researching the contrary to widen your imagination. And post that you copy and pasted from Bill's Poker blog dont just post it and assume your data is credible

     
    Gunners
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    Posted: Aug. 2, 2010 - 5:57 PM ET #14

    Quote Originally Posted by MajaWaja:


    https://www.billrini.com/2008/04/16/the-definitive-guide-to-online-poker-cheating/

    First off, dude, stop calling me a child.  It's ridiculous and you have no reason to call me names for stating my opinion.  I haven't called you a name.  I have disagreed with you and you resort to name calling.  So tell me who's the more mature person?

    Secondly,  this link you posted is about cheating, not about the poker site rigging the deck.  the only argument I've ever tried to support is that the poker sites do not rig the deck.  It makes no sense.  the billions and billions of hand histories that are voluntarily handed over by the sites and independently audited have not been found to have any issues whatsoever.  How is that not proof that they don't rig the game? 

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    Quote Originally Posted by MajaWaja:


    https://www.billrini.com/2008/04/16/the-definitive-guide-to-online-poker-cheating/

    First off, dude, stop calling me a child.  It's ridiculous and you have no reason to call me names for stating my opinion.  I haven't called you a name.  I have disagreed with you and you resort to name calling.  So tell me who's the more mature person?

    Secondly,  this link you posted is about cheating, not about the poker site rigging the deck.  the only argument I've ever tried to support is that the poker sites do not rig the deck.  It makes no sense.  the billions and billions of hand histories that are voluntarily handed over by the sites and independently audited have not been found to have any issues whatsoever.  How is that not proof that they don't rig the game? 

     
    MajaWaja
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    Posted: Aug. 2, 2010 - 6:12 PM ET #15

    I'm sorry I didn't think you were very old.
    I call you a child because whenever I would argue with you I would just feel like Im arguing with my very young and uneducated cousin, I just don't see the point.

    You are stating your opinion which is fine but you state your opinion like its fact and some proven thing, which is not correct. what you imply as proof is really irrelevant data and material. But you continue to try to argue with people when really you don't really know what the fuck your taking about haha.

    Fine, cheating and rigged cards different things we discussed, agreed. We changed it to the known facts about cheating because it was already proven through pointless arguments that no one can prove or not prove that the actual cards are rigged. That just won't be proven by me or you.

    And your last sentence, that's not proof, sorry. Ive already told you the sites don't get audited properly.
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    I'm sorry I didn't think you were very old.
    I call you a child because whenever I would argue with you I would just feel like Im arguing with my very young and uneducated cousin, I just don't see the point.

    You are stating your opinion which is fine but you state your opinion like its fact and some proven thing, which is not correct. what you imply as proof is really irrelevant data and material. But you continue to try to argue with people when really you don't really know what the fuck your taking about haha.

    Fine, cheating and rigged cards different things we discussed, agreed. We changed it to the known facts about cheating because it was already proven through pointless arguments that no one can prove or not prove that the actual cards are rigged. That just won't be proven by me or you.

    And your last sentence, that's not proof, sorry. Ive already told you the sites don't get audited properly.
     
    MajaWaja
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    Posted: Aug. 2, 2010 - 6:20 PM ET #16

    Bottom line, your using an article from 2005 when so much has happened since then in terms of online poker scams/cheating. I mean if it was from 05 it better be a good fuckin article and well, it's a meaningless opinionated blog.
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    Bottom line, your using an article from 2005 when so much has happened since then in terms of online poker scams/cheating. I mean if it was from 05 it better be a good fuckin article and well, it's a meaningless opinionated blog.
     
    electricladylnd
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    Posted: Aug. 2, 2010 - 6:53 PM ET #17

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunners:

    First off, dude, stop calling me a child.  It's ridiculous and you have no reason to call me names for stating my opinion.  I haven't called you a name.  I have disagreed with you and you resort to name calling.  So tell me who's the more mature person?

    Secondly,  this link you posted is about cheating, not about the poker site rigging the deck.  the only argument I've ever tried to support is that the poker sites do not rig the deck.  It makes no sense.  the billions and billions of hand histories that are voluntarily handed over by the sites and independently audited have not been found to have any issues whatsoever.  How is that not proof that they don't rig the game? 



    Gunners heres how it works :

    If you win $ online and DONT think its rigged youre an immature fool

    BUT  . . . . . and heres the best part . . .

    If you lose $ online and cry rigged you are intelligent and mature



    Just so theres no further confusion


    Also, for $200 you can but a bot that'll make you $80/nite forever, it says so on their site how could it not be true!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Majawaja = classic, classic rigtard
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunners:

    First off, dude, stop calling me a child.  It's ridiculous and you have no reason to call me names for stating my opinion.  I haven't called you a name.  I have disagreed with you and you resort to name calling.  So tell me who's the more mature person?

    Secondly,  this link you posted is about cheating, not about the poker site rigging the deck.  the only argument I've ever tried to support is that the poker sites do not rig the deck.  It makes no sense.  the billions and billions of hand histories that are voluntarily handed over by the sites and independently audited have not been found to have any issues whatsoever.  How is that not proof that they don't rig the game? 



    Gunners heres how it works :

    If you win $ online and DONT think its rigged youre an immature fool

    BUT  . . . . . and heres the best part . . .

    If you lose $ online and cry rigged you are intelligent and mature



    Just so theres no further confusion


    Also, for $200 you can but a bot that'll make you $80/nite forever, it says so on their site how could it not be true!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Majawaja = classic, classic rigtard
     
    MajaWaja
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    Posted: Aug. 2, 2010 - 7:15 PM ET #18

    Quote Originally Posted by electricladylnd:



    Gunners heres how it works :

    If you win $ online and DONT think its rigged youre an immature fool

    BUT  . . . . . and heres the best part . . .

    If you lose $ online and cry rigged you are intelligent and mature



    Just so theres no further confusion


    Also, for $200 you can but a bot that'll make you $80/nite forever, it says so on their site how could it not be true!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Majawaja = classic, classic rigtard


    Lets play the game again of "Quote I said this and I will leave you alone forever or side with you whatever you need" Oh you can't AGAIN because your just making up more lies, oh I forgot thats what you do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by electricladylnd:



    Gunners heres how it works :

    If you win $ online and DONT think its rigged youre an immature fool

    BUT  . . . . . and heres the best part . . .

    If you lose $ online and cry rigged you are intelligent and mature



    Just so theres no further confusion


    Also, for $200 you can but a bot that'll make you $80/nite forever, it says so on their site how could it not be true!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Majawaja = classic, classic rigtard


    Lets play the game again of "Quote I said this and I will leave you alone forever or side with you whatever you need" Oh you can't AGAIN because your just making up more lies, oh I forgot thats what you do.

     
    electricladylnd
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    Posted: Aug. 2, 2010 - 7:22 PM ET #19

    Im the one who makes up lies   
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    Im the one who makes up lies   
     
    SOBLATANT
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    Posted: Aug. 2, 2010 - 9:08 PM ET #20

    Quote Originally Posted by electricladylnd:

    Im the one who makes up lies   

    so true, thank you

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    Quote Originally Posted by electricladylnd:

    Im the one who makes up lies   

    so true, thank you

     
    wizardofroz
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    Posted: Aug. 2, 2010 - 9:27 PM ET #21

    Quote Originally Posted by electricladylnd:



    Gunners heres how it works :

    If you win $ online and DONT think its rigged youre an immature fool

    BUT  . . . . . and heres the best part . . .

    If you lose $ online and cry rigged you are intelligent and mature


    Or if you win money online, but still question the validity of the software, then Electric has no clue what to say then.  It is all black and white in his world.  No time for logical discussions regarding the gray areas.  You are just a rigtard if you feel that something is amiss when it comes to large amounts of money.  After all, site owners and people are not greedy or do not cheat.  That is just unethical and stupid to think that way.   

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    Quote Originally Posted by electricladylnd:



    Gunners heres how it works :

    If you win $ online and DONT think its rigged youre an immature fool

    BUT  . . . . . and heres the best part . . .

    If you lose $ online and cry rigged you are intelligent and mature


    Or if you win money online, but still question the validity of the software, then Electric has no clue what to say then.  It is all black and white in his world.  No time for logical discussions regarding the gray areas.  You are just a rigtard if you feel that something is amiss when it comes to large amounts of money.  After all, site owners and people are not greedy or do not cheat.  That is just unethical and stupid to think that way.   

     
    electricladylnd
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    Posted: Aug. 2, 2010 - 11:11 PM ET #22

    Quote Originally Posted by wizardofroz:

    Or if you win money online, but still question the validity of the software, then Electric has no clue what to say then.  It is all black and white in his world.  No time for logical discussions regarding the gray areas.  You are just a rigtard if you feel that something is amiss when it comes to large amounts of money.  After all, site owners and people are not greedy or do not cheat.  That is just unethical and stupid to think that way.   



    Ok I';ll try at this one without any "hate"

    I agree totally about greed and huge dollars being out there. The thing is the risk/reward is so awful but Im also not naive enough to think people arent stupid enough to make terrible decisions like that.

    WIth all that said, there hundreds of people, if not thousands who have pokertracker and theres countless people like yourself and soblatant and majawaja who would LOVE to find something fishy in there yet NOONE has ever come out with any kind of sample that shows anything is wrong.

    Also please dont say "well noone has come out with anything that says its legit!"  The fact that all these people who have all these hands stored havent said or come forth with anything IS the proof that all the numbers are legit.

    Really wizard I dont think youre a fucking moron and blah blah blah, we just get a little crazy when we start arguing this and thats fine but every single hand is recorded, and by innocent people that arent working for some paid-off audit service or anything like that. Real people tracking millions and millions of hands and nothing is wrong. Thats why I get so upset cuz a lot off these "stories" these guys tell just are mostly bullshit, there all one bad nite or even worse one bad hand!!!

    Dont you think if it wasnt legit #s wise that at least ONE person would have come out with a database saying "look, flushes hit 8% more than they should" or anything like that??? yet noone has, why?


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    Quote Originally Posted by wizardofroz:

    Or if you win money online, but still question the validity of the software, then Electric has no clue what to say then.  It is all black and white in his world.  No time for logical discussions regarding the gray areas.  You are just a rigtard if you feel that something is amiss when it comes to large amounts of money.  After all, site owners and people are not greedy or do not cheat.  That is just unethical and stupid to think that way.   



    Ok I';ll try at this one without any "hate"

    I agree totally about greed and huge dollars being out there. The thing is the risk/reward is so awful but Im also not naive enough to think people arent stupid enough to make terrible decisions like that.

    WIth all that said, there hundreds of people, if not thousands who have pokertracker and theres countless people like yourself and soblatant and majawaja who would LOVE to find something fishy in there yet NOONE has ever come out with any kind of sample that shows anything is wrong.

    Also please dont say "well noone has come out with anything that says its legit!"  The fact that all these people who have all these hands stored havent said or come forth with anything IS the proof that all the numbers are legit.

    Really wizard I dont think youre a fucking moron and blah blah blah, we just get a little crazy when we start arguing this and thats fine but every single hand is recorded, and by innocent people that arent working for some paid-off audit service or anything like that. Real people tracking millions and millions of hands and nothing is wrong. Thats why I get so upset cuz a lot off these "stories" these guys tell just are mostly bullshit, there all one bad nite or even worse one bad hand!!!

    Dont you think if it wasnt legit #s wise that at least ONE person would have come out with a database saying "look, flushes hit 8% more than they should" or anything like that??? yet noone has, why?


     
    wizardofroz
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    Posted: Aug. 3, 2010 - 1:08 AM ET #23

    Quote Originally Posted by electricladylnd:



    Ok I';ll try at this one without any "hate"


    Really wizard I dont think youre a fucking moron and blah blah blah, we just get a little crazy when we start arguing this and thats fine but every single hand is recorded, and by innocent people that arent working for some paid-off audit service or anything like that. Real people tracking millions and millions of hands and nothing is wrong. Thats why I get so upset cuz a lot off these "stories" these guys tell just are mostly bullshit, there all one bad nite or even worse one bad hand!!!

    Dont you think if it wasnt legit #s wise that at least ONE person would have come out with a database saying "look, flushes hit 8% more than they should" or anything like that??? yet noone has, why?


     Fair enough.  Electric, I just think a lot of the time you come across as condescending.  And gramatically, noone should be two words: no one.  And I think you present some intelligent points; you just rub me the wrong way at times with your attitude. 

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by electricladylnd:



    Ok I';ll try at this one without any "hate"


    Really wizard I dont think youre a fucking moron and blah blah blah, we just get a little crazy when we start arguing this and thats fine but every single hand is recorded, and by innocent people that arent working for some paid-off audit service or anything like that. Real people tracking millions and millions of hands and nothing is wrong. Thats why I get so upset cuz a lot off these "stories" these guys tell just are mostly bullshit, there all one bad nite or even worse one bad hand!!!

    Dont you think if it wasnt legit #s wise that at least ONE person would have come out with a database saying "look, flushes hit 8% more than they should" or anything like that??? yet noone has, why?


     Fair enough.  Electric, I just think a lot of the time you come across as condescending.  And gramatically, noone should be two words: no one.  And I think you present some intelligent points; you just rub me the wrong way at times with your attitude. 

     

     
    electricladylnd
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    Posted: Aug. 3, 2010 - 5:05 AM ET #24

    Quote Originally Posted by wizardofroz:

     Fair enough.  Electric, I just think a lot of the time you come across as condescending.  And gramatically, noone should be two words: no one.  And I think you present some intelligent points; you just rub me the wrong way at times with your attitude. 

     




    I come across as very condescending at times and really its only when guys start making shit up.  I do agree Ive gone way over the top insulting guys but like I keep saying the bullshit they create just pisses me off and I just lose all respect for them, although that in turn makes other people not give me respect cuz of what an asshole I am, I get it. I tell myself at least once/week to try and answer more diplomatically but then I read some of the str8 up lies these guys tell and I get fired up, just cant help it lol


    You should check out the blog, I think if you read it you'd see Im not really a cocky guy at all and very honest about myself, good or bad. Anyways take it easy
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    Quote Originally Posted by wizardofroz:

     Fair enough.  Electric, I just think a lot of the time you come across as condescending.  And gramatically, noone should be two words: no one.  And I think you present some intelligent points; you just rub me the wrong way at times with your attitude. 

     




    I come across as very condescending at times and really its only when guys start making shit up.  I do agree Ive gone way over the top insulting guys but like I keep saying the bullshit they create just pisses me off and I just lose all respect for them, although that in turn makes other people not give me respect cuz of what an asshole I am, I get it. I tell myself at least once/week to try and answer more diplomatically but then I read some of the str8 up lies these guys tell and I get fired up, just cant help it lol


    You should check out the blog, I think if you read it you'd see Im not really a cocky guy at all and very honest about myself, good or bad. Anyways take it easy
     
     
    Gunners
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    Posted: Aug. 3, 2010 - 8:58 AM ET #25

    Maja,

    The article was from 2005, yes, but the updates were from last month.  So it is still relevant.  I want to know what your response is to this logic:

    The second major flaw in this argument is that the CEO of CheatingPokerSite.com can’t write this code him/herself. They would have to instruct the software engineers to do this and anybody who worked on or around this code would notice it so they would need to be sworn to secrecy as well. In a large company like Party that could mean anywhere from 10 to 20 software engineers would have direct knowledge that the site is cheating customers. How valuable is that information? Once even one person knows they can blackmail the company for any amount of money. The more popular the site is the higher the stakes for the company. They would need to be paying those software engineers millions upon millions of dollars a year in hush money and even then, if even one of them feels disgruntled he’s going to snitch and bring the whole thing down.

    While I, nor anyone, can debate the morality and ethical standards of every casino, the incentive structure for the online casino is highly weighted towards offering a fair game. Fist off, the profits are huge. Go look at Party’s financial statements. Why would one risk the almost instant death of their business if they were found to be rigging games just so they could rake an extra .50 a hand? They would be far more incentivized to just raise the rake than they would be to rig the game. Additionally, there’s far, far more money in going public or being acquired by a larger casino than there is in nickel and diming games. Of course, the most compelling argument is that enough smart people (mathematicians, computer scientists, etc) play poker and religiously track their results that any poker room that was doing something out of the ordinary would be quickly and easily caught thus providing sufficient disincentive.

     

    I just don't understand how someone could read something that logical and disagree with it and offer a conspiracy theory trying to prove the exact opposite.  call me a child, say i'm one-sided, say i'm black and white.  But reacting against the logic above does not make any sense to me. 

    You also say that the sites aren't properly audited.  What about the ones that are public companies that made it through an IPO with independent auditors?  Are the auditors and the brokers in on it too?  Are all the institutional investors being fooled to invest in a massive international fraudelent and highly illegal company on the brink of being dissolved with one small mistake and then everyone loses their money?  Tell me if this is really what you think.  If that's what you think, then I'll stop. 

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    Maja,

    The article was from 2005, yes, but the updates were from last month.  So it is still relevant.  I want to know what your response is to this logic:

    The second major flaw in this argument is that the CEO of CheatingPokerSite.com can’t write this code him/herself. They would have to instruct the software engineers to do this and anybody who worked on or around this code would notice it so they would need to be sworn to secrecy as well. In a large company like Party that could mean anywhere from 10 to 20 software engineers would have direct knowledge that the site is cheating customers. How valuable is that information? Once even one person knows they can blackmail the company for any amount of money. The more popular the site is the higher the stakes for the company. They would need to be paying those software engineers millions upon millions of dollars a year in hush money and even then, if even one of them feels disgruntled he’s going to snitch and bring the whole thing down.

    While I, nor anyone, can debate the morality and ethical standards of every casino, the incentive structure for the online casino is highly weighted towards offering a fair game. Fist off, the profits are huge. Go look at Party’s financial statements. Why would one risk the almost instant death of their business if they were found to be rigging games just so they could rake an extra .50 a hand? They would be far more incentivized to just raise the rake than they would be to rig the game. Additionally, there’s far, far more money in going public or being acquired by a larger casino than there is in nickel and diming games. Of course, the most compelling argument is that enough smart people (mathematicians, computer scientists, etc) play poker and religiously track their results that any poker room that was doing something out of the ordinary would be quickly and easily caught thus providing sufficient disincentive.

     

    I just don't understand how someone could read something that logical and disagree with it and offer a conspiracy theory trying to prove the exact opposite.  call me a child, say i'm one-sided, say i'm black and white.  But reacting against the logic above does not make any sense to me. 

    You also say that the sites aren't properly audited.  What about the ones that are public companies that made it through an IPO with independent auditors?  Are the auditors and the brokers in on it too?  Are all the institutional investors being fooled to invest in a massive international fraudelent and highly illegal company on the brink of being dissolved with one small mistake and then everyone loses their money?  Tell me if this is really what you think.  If that's what you think, then I'll stop. 

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