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    All Forums | NFL Betting Forum

    Has NE already lost the SB even if they haven't?

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    begginerboy
    Triceratops
    statfreak
    suuma
    Lefty1981
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    begginerboy
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    Posted: Jan. 23, 2015 - 1:05 AM ET #1

    You gotta think, it's almost a catch-22 or lose, lose for NE, regardless of the outcome. If they win the game, everyone will say they cheated their way to the SB. If they lose, everyone will say they lost cause they couldn't cheat. I think that might be the reason why Brady looked so defeated. They already lost and they haven't even played the game. This has ruined the entire experience of the SB for this team (Brady even admitted as much). They should be quietly enjoying themselves and their accomplishments but they can't, not with this media frenzy and a 24 hour news cycle. 

    But how will this sinking feeling (if it continues) affect the real game? Will the league's decision exacerbate the situation or mollify it? Is there any way out of this catch-22 for NE, or anything they can do on or off the field (with their play) to remove the suspicion that they have cheated their way to the SB? I don't think so. The best they can hope for (if nothing changes) is to take out their anger and frustration out on their opponents. Bill and Tom will try to convince the team, as they tried to convince us, that they are the victims in all of this and that this is just a witch hunt? But will the team buy this narrative? How much they buy into this narrative (and who they view to be the real villains of this affair) will go a long way in determining how well or hard they play in the SB. Because it's gonna take a big effort on their part to shut out all the noise. If they allow themselves to get distracted (as they already have) they will lose and lose big!
    Reply
    To remove first post, remove entire topic.
    You gotta think, it's almost a catch-22 or lose, lose for NE, regardless of the outcome. If they win the game, everyone will say they cheated their way to the SB. If they lose, everyone will say they lost cause they couldn't cheat. I think that might be the reason why Brady looked so defeated. They already lost and they haven't even played the game. This has ruined the entire experience of the SB for this team (Brady even admitted as much). They should be quietly enjoying themselves and their accomplishments but they can't, not with this media frenzy and a 24 hour news cycle. 

    But how will this sinking feeling (if it continues) affect the real game? Will the league's decision exacerbate the situation or mollify it? Is there any way out of this catch-22 for NE, or anything they can do on or off the field (with their play) to remove the suspicion that they have cheated their way to the SB? I don't think so. The best they can hope for (if nothing changes) is to take out their anger and frustration out on their opponents. Bill and Tom will try to convince the team, as they tried to convince us, that they are the victims in all of this and that this is just a witch hunt? But will the team buy this narrative? How much they buy into this narrative (and who they view to be the real villains of this affair) will go a long way in determining how well or hard they play in the SB. Because it's gonna take a big effort on their part to shut out all the noise. If they allow themselves to get distracted (as they already have) they will lose and lose big!
     
    Triceratops
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    Posted: Jan. 23, 2015 - 1:14 AM ET #2

    Aww Brady's Superbowl experience has been ruined by him cheating and then lying on national television for 30 minutes.  

    I doubt the players in the locker room are as naive as most of the public.  They know Brady knew, just like all the ex players have been saying. 
    Reply
    Aww Brady's Superbowl experience has been ruined by him cheating and then lying on national television for 30 minutes.  

    I doubt the players in the locker room are as naive as most of the public.  They know Brady knew, just like all the ex players have been saying. 
     
    begginerboy
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    Posted: Jan. 23, 2015 - 1:23 AM ET #3

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceratops:

    Aww Brady's Superbowl experience has been ruined by him cheating and then lying on national television for 30 minutes.  

    I doubt the players in the locker room are as naive as most of the public.  They know Brady knew, just like all the ex players have been saying. 

    Yes, to a certain extent, you are right. But that's not the only way they can spin it to the team. They can tell the team that everyone does this (which they already know or suspect) and that the Colts, the Ravens, the media and/or the powers that be are trying to bring them down and punish them out of jealousy, envy, greed (sell stories), etc... This kind of narrative can galvanize a team, but only if they are gullible enough to believe it.
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceratops:

    Aww Brady's Superbowl experience has been ruined by him cheating and then lying on national television for 30 minutes.  

    I doubt the players in the locker room are as naive as most of the public.  They know Brady knew, just like all the ex players have been saying. 

    Yes, to a certain extent, you are right. But that's not the only way they can spin it to the team. They can tell the team that everyone does this (which they already know or suspect) and that the Colts, the Ravens, the media and/or the powers that be are trying to bring them down and punish them out of jealousy, envy, greed (sell stories), etc... This kind of narrative can galvanize a team, but only if they are gullible enough to believe it.
     
    Triceratops
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    Posted: Jan. 23, 2015 - 1:39 AM ET #4

    Quote Originally Posted by begginerboy:


    Yes, to a certain extent, you are right. But that's not the only way they can spin it to the team. They can tell the team that everyone does this (which they already know or suspect) and that the Colts, the Ravens, the media and/or the powers that be are trying to bring them down and punish them out of jealousy, envy, greed (sell stories), etc... This kind of narrative can galvanize a team, but only if they are gullible enough to believe it.

    I could be wrong, but I dont think the everyone does this narrative is what people think it means.  Yes every quarterback likes their game balls a certain way and the equipment managers work all week to get the balls the way they like them.  However, I don't think it means that everyone else is deflating their balls under the allowed 12.5 psi.  I know I haven't read anything about any active QBs coming forward and saying they have knowingly played with a ball under 12.5 psi, but again, I could be wrong that.  A rule is a rule.  Most people speed too, but you still get a ticket when you get caught.  
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by begginerboy:


    Yes, to a certain extent, you are right. But that's not the only way they can spin it to the team. They can tell the team that everyone does this (which they already know or suspect) and that the Colts, the Ravens, the media and/or the powers that be are trying to bring them down and punish them out of jealousy, envy, greed (sell stories), etc... This kind of narrative can galvanize a team, but only if they are gullible enough to believe it.

    I could be wrong, but I dont think the everyone does this narrative is what people think it means.  Yes every quarterback likes their game balls a certain way and the equipment managers work all week to get the balls the way they like them.  However, I don't think it means that everyone else is deflating their balls under the allowed 12.5 psi.  I know I haven't read anything about any active QBs coming forward and saying they have knowingly played with a ball under 12.5 psi, but again, I could be wrong that.  A rule is a rule.  Most people speed too, but you still get a ticket when you get caught.  
     
    begginerboy
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    Posted: Jan. 23, 2015 - 1:49 AM ET #5

    By everyone does this, I simply mean that the narrative would be, "every QB doctors their ball in one way, shape or form" so that what they did with the pressure is just another form of doctoring.  
    Reply
    By everyone does this, I simply mean that the narrative would be, "every QB doctors their ball in one way, shape or form" so that what they did with the pressure is just another form of doctoring.  
     
    statfreak
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    Posted: Jan. 23, 2015 - 2:27 AM ET #6

    the patriots may get a little distracted (not that much really, think about it)... and get annoyed but they dont care if brady knew or not... lol and no, theres no way they are worried about what ppl will be saying if they win.

    btw everyone knows they didnt "cheat their way" into the SB
    Reply
    the patriots may get a little distracted (not that much really, think about it)... and get annoyed but they dont care if brady knew or not... lol and no, theres no way they are worried about what ppl will be saying if they win.

    btw everyone knows they didnt "cheat their way" into the SB
     
    begginerboy
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    Posted: Jan. 23, 2015 - 2:40 AM ET #7

    Quote Originally Posted by statfreak:

    the patriots may get a little distracted (not that much really, think about it)... and get annoyed but they dont care if brady knew or not... lol and no, theres no way they are worried about what ppl will be saying if they win.

    btw everyone knows they didnt "cheat their way" into the SB

    Really? You're way off if that's what you think. They've been doing this stuff for a long time. The Ravens tipped off the Colts, and that was a close game. They took a poll on the morning news today (national news) and 81% said the Pats should forfeit the SB. 81%. These are the masses (not the guys on covers). 
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by statfreak:

    the patriots may get a little distracted (not that much really, think about it)... and get annoyed but they dont care if brady knew or not... lol and no, theres no way they are worried about what ppl will be saying if they win.

    btw everyone knows they didnt "cheat their way" into the SB

    Really? You're way off if that's what you think. They've been doing this stuff for a long time. The Ravens tipped off the Colts, and that was a close game. They took a poll on the morning news today (national news) and 81% said the Pats should forfeit the SB. 81%. These are the masses (not the guys on covers). 
     
    suuma
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    Posted: Jan. 23, 2015 - 2:44 AM ET #8

    One question I keep asking myself: Why didn't the refs notice anything of that ? They touch the balls a hundred times during the game.
    Reply
    One question I keep asking myself: Why didn't the refs notice anything of that ? They touch the balls a hundred times during the game.
     
    suuma
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    Posted: Jan. 23, 2015 - 2:56 AM ET #9

    If the refs don't notice the difference when they get to touch balls of both sides, why should Brady notice it when he just touches the NE balls ?

    I can't watch the ESPN science video on the deflated ball test, but that's a comment about the video:

    "They said that at most, a 2 psi difference makes the football weigh 1 gram less, which would make it arrive about .003 seconds slower on a 20 yard pass, and improve grip by about 1 millimeter of indentation. Their conclusion was that it provided an "insignificant" difference, and that with the rain in Foxborough it likely made Brady's passes worse, if anything.

    I think it would be hilarious if someone on the Pats staff actually tampered with the balls and kicked off this whole faux-scandal, only to find out it made the team play worse."

    Reply
    If the refs don't notice the difference when they get to touch balls of both sides, why should Brady notice it when he just touches the NE balls ?

    I can't watch the ESPN science video on the deflated ball test, but that's a comment about the video:

    "They said that at most, a 2 psi difference makes the football weigh 1 gram less, which would make it arrive about .003 seconds slower on a 20 yard pass, and improve grip by about 1 millimeter of indentation. Their conclusion was that it provided an "insignificant" difference, and that with the rain in Foxborough it likely made Brady's passes worse, if anything.

    I think it would be hilarious if someone on the Pats staff actually tampered with the balls and kicked off this whole faux-scandal, only to find out it made the team play worse."

     
    statfreak
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    Posted: Jan. 23, 2015 - 2:57 AM ET #10

    mmm that thing about the ravens turned out to be false... they said they didnt noticed anything about footballs.

    and pats started using colts football before the 1H came to an end
    Reply
    mmm that thing about the ravens turned out to be false... they said they didnt noticed anything about footballs.

    and pats started using colts football before the 1H came to an end
     
    begginerboy
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    Posted: Jan. 23, 2015 - 3:02 AM ET #11

    I don't know, Suuma but you have to consider that besides any real advantage an athlete gets by doing this (which might be minimal) they also get a perceived advantage (which could be huge), a kind of placebo reaction. But again, I'm only interested in the psychological fallout. 
    Reply
    I don't know, Suuma but you have to consider that besides any real advantage an athlete gets by doing this (which might be minimal) they also get a perceived advantage (which could be huge), a kind of placebo reaction. But again, I'm only interested in the psychological fallout. 
     
    begginerboy
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    Posted: Jan. 23, 2015 - 3:06 AM ET #12

    Quote Originally Posted by statfreak:

    mmm that thing about the ravens turned out to be false... they said they didnt noticed anything about footballs.

    and pats started using colts football before the 1H came to an end

    Again, you are dealing with what happened and I'm asking how peoples' perception of what happened will affect the Patriots, the Seahawks and possibly, the outcome of the game. 
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by statfreak:

    mmm that thing about the ravens turned out to be false... they said they didnt noticed anything about footballs.

    and pats started using colts football before the 1H came to an end

    Again, you are dealing with what happened and I'm asking how peoples' perception of what happened will affect the Patriots, the Seahawks and possibly, the outcome of the game. 
     
    statfreak
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    Posted: Jan. 23, 2015 - 3:13 AM ET #13

    well you think pats will play bad because of it, i think they are gonna play great because of it.

    and you will most likely find 50-50 with those opinions, making this pretty much a non issue for handicapping
    Reply
    well you think pats will play bad because of it, i think they are gonna play great because of it.

    and you will most likely find 50-50 with those opinions, making this pretty much a non issue for handicapping
     
    suuma
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    Posted: Jan. 23, 2015 - 3:20 AM ET #14

    Quote Originally Posted by begginerboy:

    I don't know, Suuma but you have to consider that besides any real advantage an athlete gets by doing this (which might be minimal) they also get a perceived advantage (which could be huge), a kind of placebo reaction. But again, I'm only interested in the psychological fallout. 


    At this point, I believe the Pats have an advantage off it. This kind of stuff can keep a team together, much more than before. I believe there was something strange about the whole thing. I just cannot believe a team deflates 11 of 12 balls and key players know about it. To me that's absurd, regarding such a huge game with everything on the line. They crushed almost every good defense so they didn't need to cheat against the Colts "defense". Either something went completely wrong and it was just a fault or anybody wanted the Pats to get involved in those things ?! From that standpoint, I can see the team feeling like "Everyone has conspired against us" which puts them together more than before.


    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by begginerboy:

    I don't know, Suuma but you have to consider that besides any real advantage an athlete gets by doing this (which might be minimal) they also get a perceived advantage (which could be huge), a kind of placebo reaction. But again, I'm only interested in the psychological fallout. 


    At this point, I believe the Pats have an advantage off it. This kind of stuff can keep a team together, much more than before. I believe there was something strange about the whole thing. I just cannot believe a team deflates 11 of 12 balls and key players know about it. To me that's absurd, regarding such a huge game with everything on the line. They crushed almost every good defense so they didn't need to cheat against the Colts "defense". Either something went completely wrong and it was just a fault or anybody wanted the Pats to get involved in those things ?! From that standpoint, I can see the team feeling like "Everyone has conspired against us" which puts them together more than before.


     
    statfreak
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    Posted: Jan. 23, 2015 - 3:28 AM ET #15

    patriots are always stepping on the line, thats i dont think they care at all what ppl will say if then win
    Reply
    patriots are always stepping on the line, thats i dont think they care at all what ppl will say if then win
     
    Lefty1981
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    Posted: Jan. 23, 2015 - 3:48 AM ET #16

    I'm willing to bet that all of the bad press about deflategate is a ploy to get more action on SEA because of the linesmakers screwing up by throwing SEA -2.5 out there before it got pounded down to a PK.

    You can bet that most people throwing money on the SB are going to take this "bad karma" as a distraction to the Pats and people who were originally going to go with NE will flip and go with SEA.

    I still think NE wins. They're just trying to get as much action on SEA as they can. When NE wins, the stories will continue and everyone will say how this year should have an asterisk and blah blah blah......
    Reply
    I'm willing to bet that all of the bad press about deflategate is a ploy to get more action on SEA because of the linesmakers screwing up by throwing SEA -2.5 out there before it got pounded down to a PK.

    You can bet that most people throwing money on the SB are going to take this "bad karma" as a distraction to the Pats and people who were originally going to go with NE will flip and go with SEA.

    I still think NE wins. They're just trying to get as much action on SEA as they can. When NE wins, the stories will continue and everyone will say how this year should have an asterisk and blah blah blah......
     
    suuma
    suuma
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    Posted: Jan. 23, 2015 - 4:54 AM ET #17

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ_S8F3mKFE
    Reply
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ_S8F3mKFE
     
    mjm1012
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    Posted: Jan. 23, 2015 - 5:07 AM ET #18

    Quote Originally Posted by statfreak:

    well you think pats will play bad because of it, i think they are gonna play great because of it.

    and you will most likely find 50-50 with those opinions, making this pretty much a non issue for handicapping

    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by statfreak:

    well you think pats will play bad because of it, i think they are gonna play great because of it.

    and you will most likely find 50-50 with those opinions, making this pretty much a non issue for handicapping

     
    Julespussy
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    Posted: Jan. 23, 2015 - 5:55 AM ET #19

    Ruins the build up for all bettors because the football based analysis may be pointless because of how this incident affects the two teams. Nobody can predict the human reaction so it turns into a coin flip and all the notable and enjoyable pre game debate becomes moot. A real shame after the drama that got us to this point
    Reply
    Ruins the build up for all bettors because the football based analysis may be pointless because of how this incident affects the two teams. Nobody can predict the human reaction so it turns into a coin flip and all the notable and enjoyable pre game debate becomes moot. A real shame after the drama that got us to this point
     
    User358183b
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    Posted: Jan. 23, 2015 - 9:38 AM ET #20

    Post Deleted
    The lion and the tiger may be more powerful, but the wolf doesn't perform in the circus.
    Reply
    Post Deleted
     
    duongtommy
    duongtommy
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    Posted: Jan. 23, 2015 - 9:42 AM ET #21

    Quote Originally Posted by suuma:

    One question I keep asking myself: Why didn't the refs notice anything of that ? They touch the balls a hundred times during the game.
    this is just a Vegas game bro
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by suuma:

    One question I keep asking myself: Why didn't the refs notice anything of that ? They touch the balls a hundred times during the game.
    this is just a Vegas game bro
     
    Triceratops
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    Posted: Jan. 23, 2015 - 9:50 AM ET #22

    Quote Originally Posted by Polar_Bear:

    They could give a flying fuk what you. myself or anyone else thinks and it would not diminish their celebratory feeling one tiny bit should they win. Just like the Seahawks don't feel bad for having a bunch of known steroid users on their team. Look at how happy they were last season and last weekend, it does not bother them that they are cheaters and winning, so why should the Pats care if they deflated a few balls to get a better grip in the rain. What make sit even dumber that it was done was the fact brady threw the ball much better in the second half. He started the second half 9 for 9 passing and led them 4 touchdowns as opposed to the 2 touchdowns in the first half, and he threw his pick with the deflated ball as well. He played much better with the properly inflated balls in the second half.

    How does that have anything to do with them breaking the rules?  Ill answer that, it doesn't.  If deflating a football didnt give a competitive advantage then there wouldn't be such a tight range of psi allowed.  People are coming up with all sorts of rationalizations as to why its not a big deal.  Why did Brady feel the need to lie through his teeth for 30 minutes on national tv if it wasn't a big deal?  
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by Polar_Bear:

    They could give a flying fuk what you. myself or anyone else thinks and it would not diminish their celebratory feeling one tiny bit should they win. Just like the Seahawks don't feel bad for having a bunch of known steroid users on their team. Look at how happy they were last season and last weekend, it does not bother them that they are cheaters and winning, so why should the Pats care if they deflated a few balls to get a better grip in the rain. What make sit even dumber that it was done was the fact brady threw the ball much better in the second half. He started the second half 9 for 9 passing and led them 4 touchdowns as opposed to the 2 touchdowns in the first half, and he threw his pick with the deflated ball as well. He played much better with the properly inflated balls in the second half.

    How does that have anything to do with them breaking the rules?  Ill answer that, it doesn't.  If deflating a football didnt give a competitive advantage then there wouldn't be such a tight range of psi allowed.  People are coming up with all sorts of rationalizations as to why its not a big deal.  Why did Brady feel the need to lie through his teeth for 30 minutes on national tv if it wasn't a big deal?  
     
    User358183b
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    Posted: Jan. 23, 2015 - 11:11 AM ET #23

    Post Deleted
    The lion and the tiger may be more powerful, but the wolf doesn't perform in the circus.
    Reply
    Post Deleted
     
    begginerboy
    begginerboy
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    Posted: Jan. 23, 2015 - 11:24 AM ET #24

    comparing seattle using peds to this is absurd. this has taken over the entire news cycle. hello? please think before you write.
    Reply
    comparing seattle using peds to this is absurd. this has taken over the entire news cycle. hello? please think before you write.
     
     
    LogCottage
    LogCottage
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    Posted: Jan. 23, 2015 - 12:46 PM ET #25

    Quote Originally Posted by suuma:

    One question I keep asking myself: Why didn't the refs notice
    anything of that ? They touch the balls a hundred times during the game.


    Exactly. NE 27-17
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by suuma:

    One question I keep asking myself: Why didn't the refs notice
    anything of that ? They touch the balls a hundred times during the game.


    Exactly. NE 27-17
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