Furthemore, did i say was perfect, did i say i was going 100% guarantee to heavan?
No, but if you really believed, you could certainly better your chances by selling your house and your car and moving to india to help the poor.
Why arent you doing that? Afterall, the stakes couldnt be higher - everlasting heaven or hell? You would think you would do everything in your power to tilt the scales in your favor.
Support your local animal shelter. I am on twitter.
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Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:
Furthemore, did i say was perfect, did i say i was going 100% guarantee to heavan?
No, but if you really believed, you could certainly better your chances by selling your house and your car and moving to india to help the poor.
Why arent you doing that? Afterall, the stakes couldnt be higher - everlasting heaven or hell? You would think you would do everything in your power to tilt the scales in your favor.
I never said morals are subjective to the individual - in fact I said quite the opposite - I said that morals are subjective to the masses.
So if there were a tribe that practiced rape in todays society, that would be deemed as immoral by society. Please stop repeating the mantra you have been brainwashed with and read what I am writing - I am doing that courtesy for you - please do it for me.
Now - you talk of absolute morals given by your god - what about thou shall honor your father and mother? That is absolute right? Well - what if your father is raping you, and your mother doesnt let you eat? Then what?
How about thou shall not steal? Are concentration camp person allowed to steal bread if they have a chance to survive? How about thou shall not covet? How does capitalism survive without coveting what the other guy has?
Your absolute morals are absurd, and unworkable. Please address the above.
So depending on what society i come from, the morals are the ones that i should go by.
Are the Tribe groups a SOCIETY? Yes or No? if i was born in a tribe and was taught as a custom that it is ok and good to murder and eat others. It might be wrong by YOUR SOCIETY but what about me in my SOCIETY where i was born and raised?
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Quote Originally Posted by vanzack:
Sir - please read what I wrote again.
I never said morals are subjective to the individual - in fact I said quite the opposite - I said that morals are subjective to the masses.
So if there were a tribe that practiced rape in todays society, that would be deemed as immoral by society. Please stop repeating the mantra you have been brainwashed with and read what I am writing - I am doing that courtesy for you - please do it for me.
Now - you talk of absolute morals given by your god - what about thou shall honor your father and mother? That is absolute right? Well - what if your father is raping you, and your mother doesnt let you eat? Then what?
How about thou shall not steal? Are concentration camp person allowed to steal bread if they have a chance to survive? How about thou shall not covet? How does capitalism survive without coveting what the other guy has?
Your absolute morals are absurd, and unworkable. Please address the above.
So depending on what society i come from, the morals are the ones that i should go by.
Are the Tribe groups a SOCIETY? Yes or No? if i was born in a tribe and was taught as a custom that it is ok and good to murder and eat others. It might be wrong by YOUR SOCIETY but what about me in my SOCIETY where i was born and raised?
No, but if you really believed, you could certainly better your chances by selling your house and your car and moving to india to help the poor.
Why arent you doing that? Afterall, the stakes couldnt be higher - everlasting heaven or hell? You would think you would do everything in your power to tilt the scales in your favor.
While it is true what you are saying, the bible tells us not to judge others.
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Quote Originally Posted by vanzack:
No, but if you really believed, you could certainly better your chances by selling your house and your car and moving to india to help the poor.
Why arent you doing that? Afterall, the stakes couldnt be higher - everlasting heaven or hell? You would think you would do everything in your power to tilt the scales in your favor.
While it is true what you are saying, the bible tells us not to judge others.
Thats only what you can say, u never add anything, u never attempt to debunk anything, all what u do is come in and throw up emiticons and make some stupid remark which adds nothing. Go back to your hiding hole
I just asked you a question You're the one making the claims...what am I hiding from
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Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:
Thats only what you can say, u never add anything, u never attempt to debunk anything, all what u do is come in and throw up emiticons and make some stupid remark which adds nothing. Go back to your hiding hole
I just asked you a question You're the one making the claims...what am I hiding from
Sorry to interrupt, but are you playing any MLB to start the season Van? Or do you generally wait a few weeks to see what's what?
Livan my friend -
I have decided to not bet MLB this season. I cant do what I do without a low cost option like MB, and combined with my other options for books being very expensive and filled with risk.
I am taking a wait and see approach from here. But for now, I might be on hiatus for a while (after I finish out the soccer season).
GL
Support your local animal shelter. I am on twitter.
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Quote Originally Posted by Livan33:
Sorry to interrupt, but are you playing any MLB to start the season Van? Or do you generally wait a few weeks to see what's what?
Livan my friend -
I have decided to not bet MLB this season. I cant do what I do without a low cost option like MB, and combined with my other options for books being very expensive and filled with risk.
I am taking a wait and see approach from here. But for now, I might be on hiatus for a while (after I finish out the soccer season).
So depending on what society i come from, the morals are the ones that i should go by.
Are the Tribe groups a SOCIETY? Yes or No? if i was born in a tribe and was taught as a custom that it is ok and good to murder and eat others. It might be wrong by YOUR SOCIETY but what about me in my SOCIETY where i was born and raised?
Rostos -
You are not playing fair. I address all of your points, and you ignore all of mine and repeat the same thing over and over.
I cant dance with you anymore until you address my questions above about your absolute morality, and my questions about stealing etc.
It is not fair to expect me to write long answers to all of your questions, only to have you ignore all of my answers in favor of repeating yourself.
Support your local animal shelter. I am on twitter.
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Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:
So depending on what society i come from, the morals are the ones that i should go by.
Are the Tribe groups a SOCIETY? Yes or No? if i was born in a tribe and was taught as a custom that it is ok and good to murder and eat others. It might be wrong by YOUR SOCIETY but what about me in my SOCIETY where i was born and raised?
Rostos -
You are not playing fair. I address all of your points, and you ignore all of mine and repeat the same thing over and over.
I cant dance with you anymore until you address my questions above about your absolute morality, and my questions about stealing etc.
It is not fair to expect me to write long answers to all of your questions, only to have you ignore all of my answers in favor of repeating yourself.
You are not playing fair. I address all of your points, and you ignore all of mine and repeat the same thing over and over.
I cant dance with you anymore until you address my questions above about your absolute morality, and my questions about stealing etc.
It is not fair to expect me to write long answers to all of your questions, only to have you ignore all of my answers in favor of repeating yourself.
I have addressed everything u have asked. I really dont know what you are asking,
You said morals are subjective in according to society, i said if that is the case, what about TRIBE Societies when killing and eating each other is there custom.
You havent answered my question that are what they are doing is ABSOLUTELY WRONG?
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Quote Originally Posted by vanzack:
Rostos -
You are not playing fair. I address all of your points, and you ignore all of mine and repeat the same thing over and over.
I cant dance with you anymore until you address my questions above about your absolute morality, and my questions about stealing etc.
It is not fair to expect me to write long answers to all of your questions, only to have you ignore all of my answers in favor of repeating yourself.
I have addressed everything u have asked. I really dont know what you are asking,
You said morals are subjective in according to society, i said if that is the case, what about TRIBE Societies when killing and eating each other is there custom.
You havent answered my question that are what they are doing is ABSOLUTELY WRONG?
I have addressed everything u have asked. I really dont know what you are asking,
You said morals are subjective in according to society, i said if that is the case, what about TRIBE Societies when killing and eating each other is there custom.
You havent answered my question that are what they are doing is ABSOLUTELY WRONG?
Now - you talk of absolute morals given by your god - what about thou shall honor your father and mother? That is absolute right? Well - what if your father is raping you, and your mother doesnt let you eat? Then what?
How about thou shall not steal? Are concentration camp person allowed to steal bread if they have a chance to survive? How about thou shall not covet? How does capitalism survive without coveting what the other guy has?
Your absolute morals are absurd, and unworkable. Please address the above.
Support your local animal shelter. I am on twitter.
0
Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:
I have addressed everything u have asked. I really dont know what you are asking,
You said morals are subjective in according to society, i said if that is the case, what about TRIBE Societies when killing and eating each other is there custom.
You havent answered my question that are what they are doing is ABSOLUTELY WRONG?
Now - you talk of absolute morals given by your god - what about thou shall honor your father and mother? That is absolute right? Well - what if your father is raping you, and your mother doesnt let you eat? Then what?
How about thou shall not steal? Are concentration camp person allowed to steal bread if they have a chance to survive? How about thou shall not covet? How does capitalism survive without coveting what the other guy has?
Your absolute morals are absurd, and unworkable. Please address the above.
I believe what Vanzack is trying to articulate is that your claim that god offers absolute morality is just as flawed as the claim that stealing is inherently wrong. Nothing is inherently wrong. There cannot be absolute morality. God's morals are just as subjective as the tribe of rapists or the clan of cannibalists or the laws of the United States that prohibit murder/stealing/etc. You believe in god's "absolute" morals because you believe in god. Myself, Vanzack, and many others believe in the morals of society.
As society is currently situated, I have no desire to kill or steal. However, let's say society suddenly broke down and anarchy reigned supreme. Others started killing and stealing to survive. My morals would change based on my desire to survive. Similarly, if god appeared and said "hey rostos, btw, just wanted to let you know I don't actually believe raping is wrong, in fact, i condone it" your morals would change too (assuming you maintained belief in that god). The point is, all morals are subjective, even yours that you base on god.
Van- if I have misinterpreted your position here, please correct me.
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To my good buddy Rostos,
I believe what Vanzack is trying to articulate is that your claim that god offers absolute morality is just as flawed as the claim that stealing is inherently wrong. Nothing is inherently wrong. There cannot be absolute morality. God's morals are just as subjective as the tribe of rapists or the clan of cannibalists or the laws of the United States that prohibit murder/stealing/etc. You believe in god's "absolute" morals because you believe in god. Myself, Vanzack, and many others believe in the morals of society.
As society is currently situated, I have no desire to kill or steal. However, let's say society suddenly broke down and anarchy reigned supreme. Others started killing and stealing to survive. My morals would change based on my desire to survive. Similarly, if god appeared and said "hey rostos, btw, just wanted to let you know I don't actually believe raping is wrong, in fact, i condone it" your morals would change too (assuming you maintained belief in that god). The point is, all morals are subjective, even yours that you base on god.
Van- if I have misinterpreted your position here, please correct me.
My favorite post in this whole thread is post #338.
derogatory crap? actually the Bible sought to give rights to slaves and woman in a culture where they had zero voice. it triumphs woman, the poor, and the outcast. it is the first civil rights piece of literature ever written.
not to say there aren't any inconsistencies...see my prior comment about many authors telling the same story.
I just cant get over that.
And then when I post verse after verse of rape and slavery, I get zero response.
i haven't posted b/c i said i left. you are bad mouthing me when i am not even around to answer. what good does that do?
i don't read the bible you say?
and with all due respect, you are doing the classic cherry-picking of verses without any attempt for a cultural exegesis of the passages. if you had a hermeneutic that included investigating the cultural norms of the time, then you would understand that all those laws were much more empowering to the victims. THEY WERE PROGRESSIVE for the time. you see them as regressive b/c of the time that we live in.
case in point...many women were leaders in the church, particular in the the church at Corinth (which was the only cultural situation where woman were in this position). the verse you sited was written b/c the woman (who were allowed to talk in church services) had gotten out of control with their talking and gossiping. hence the command.
i could do this for every passage if time allowed.
you can't just cherry-pick verses without doing any exegesis bro.
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Quote Originally Posted by vanzack:
My favorite post in this whole thread is post #338.
derogatory crap? actually the Bible sought to give rights to slaves and woman in a culture where they had zero voice. it triumphs woman, the poor, and the outcast. it is the first civil rights piece of literature ever written.
not to say there aren't any inconsistencies...see my prior comment about many authors telling the same story.
I just cant get over that.
And then when I post verse after verse of rape and slavery, I get zero response.
i haven't posted b/c i said i left. you are bad mouthing me when i am not even around to answer. what good does that do?
i don't read the bible you say?
and with all due respect, you are doing the classic cherry-picking of verses without any attempt for a cultural exegesis of the passages. if you had a hermeneutic that included investigating the cultural norms of the time, then you would understand that all those laws were much more empowering to the victims. THEY WERE PROGRESSIVE for the time. you see them as regressive b/c of the time that we live in.
case in point...many women were leaders in the church, particular in the the church at Corinth (which was the only cultural situation where woman were in this position). the verse you sited was written b/c the woman (who were allowed to talk in church services) had gotten out of control with their talking and gossiping. hence the command.
i could do this for every passage if time allowed.
you can't just cherry-pick verses without doing any exegesis bro.
Try to answer this as honestly as possible. I'm not looking for proof of existence or anything like that. I just want your honest answer so I can try and understand.
Why do you believe in God?
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I have a question for the believers.
Try to answer this as honestly as possible. I'm not looking for proof of existence or anything like that. I just want your honest answer so I can try and understand.
to me, the belief that the story of jesus' resurrection was contrived is LESS plausible than it being true. because i believe it to be true, it gives meaning to the entire course of humanity. if it's not true, then it's meaningless.
not just the historical plausibility, but i honestly feel like i have seen transformation in people's lives (mine notwithstanding) that can only be described as miraculous.
also, i feel it the most hopeful way to have comfort and hope in such a painful world.
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as i stated earlier...
to me, the belief that the story of jesus' resurrection was contrived is LESS plausible than it being true. because i believe it to be true, it gives meaning to the entire course of humanity. if it's not true, then it's meaningless.
not just the historical plausibility, but i honestly feel like i have seen transformation in people's lives (mine notwithstanding) that can only be described as miraculous.
also, i feel it the most hopeful way to have comfort and hope in such a painful world.
btw- van in your "God assists rape" passage. God is not saying he will do the raping and plundering. the passage is saying that in a day where that is happening, God will protect His people.
you gotta do a better job of understanding what you are posting before you bad mouth someone, God nonetheless. ;)
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btw- van in your "God assists rape" passage. God is not saying he will do the raping and plundering. the passage is saying that in a day where that is happening, God will protect His people.
you gotta do a better job of understanding what you are posting before you bad mouth someone, God nonetheless. ;)
to me, the belief that the story of jesus' resurrection was contrived is LESS plausible than it being true. because i believe it to be true, it gives meaning to the entire course of humanity. if it's not true, then it's meaningless.
not just the historical plausibility, but i honestly feel like i have seen transformation in people's lives (mine notwithstanding) that can only be described as miraculous.
also, i feel it the most hopeful way to have comfort and hope in such a painful world.
that's my short and sweet answer bigbaby. hope it helps you understand where i am coming from.
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Quote Originally Posted by sims_key:
as i stated earlier...
to me, the belief that the story of jesus' resurrection was contrived is LESS plausible than it being true. because i believe it to be true, it gives meaning to the entire course of humanity. if it's not true, then it's meaningless.
not just the historical plausibility, but i honestly feel like i have seen transformation in people's lives (mine notwithstanding) that can only be described as miraculous.
also, i feel it the most hopeful way to have comfort and hope in such a painful world.
that's my short and sweet answer bigbaby. hope it helps you understand where i am coming from.
to me, the belief that the story of jesus' resurrection was contrived is LESS plausible than it being true. because i believe it to be true, it gives meaning to the entire course of humanity. if it's not true, then it's meaningless.
not just the historical plausibility, but i honestly feel like i have seen transformation in people's lives (mine notwithstanding) that can only be described as miraculous.
also, i feel it the most hopeful way to have comfort and hope in such a painful world.
Can you see why it seems to so far fetched to a lot of us though at least?
If a baby is born tomorrow and lives in complete isolation for it's entire life it will know nothing of God. It's not the babies fault. Does he deserve to go to hell?
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Quote Originally Posted by sims_key:
as i stated earlier...
to me, the belief that the story of jesus' resurrection was contrived is LESS plausible than it being true. because i believe it to be true, it gives meaning to the entire course of humanity. if it's not true, then it's meaningless.
not just the historical plausibility, but i honestly feel like i have seen transformation in people's lives (mine notwithstanding) that can only be described as miraculous.
also, i feel it the most hopeful way to have comfort and hope in such a painful world.
Can you see why it seems to so far fetched to a lot of us though at least?
If a baby is born tomorrow and lives in complete isolation for it's entire life it will know nothing of God. It's not the babies fault. Does he deserve to go to hell?
i can absolutely see why people don't believe. the questions are hard as hell (pun intended).
that question (among others) you wrote is just one that can not be answered. i could take a stab using the narrative of Scripture as an apologetic but it would not do it justice. just have to shrug the shoulders on that one.
i still think that everyone must give a good hard look at the historicity of jesus and the resurrection before dismissing it completely. the resurrection is quite compelling when you do the homework.
good luck on your spiritual quest.
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i can absolutely see why people don't believe. the questions are hard as hell (pun intended).
that question (among others) you wrote is just one that can not be answered. i could take a stab using the narrative of Scripture as an apologetic but it would not do it justice. just have to shrug the shoulders on that one.
i still think that everyone must give a good hard look at the historicity of jesus and the resurrection before dismissing it completely. the resurrection is quite compelling when you do the homework.
You're the one making the claims...what am I hiding from
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