Someone ask this question the other day: so what is the purpose of a baby that dies, since this is all just a test to see who goes to heaven? and no I'm not asking if the baby will go to heaven
I wouldn't pose a question like that. First of all everyone will die someday, tomorrow is not promised to anyone. Some people die very young and some die very old, we just don't know when death will be coming our way.
As for babies dying, there are numerous explanations, for example premature births, SIDS, abuse, neglect, etc. Babies and young children as we all know are the most vulnerable to dying because of their under developed bodies and their helplessness. The mortality rates have been going down as compared to the past. I know when a baby dies it just breaks the hearts of their parents, it is so sad and painful to bear!
I know I didn't answer your question adequately but it appears you're suggesting that babies shouldn't die because they haven't gone through the test and it doesn't make sense to you, and so you ask what is their purpose for their living in the first place? Well the answer I gave above is as adequate as I can get.
I know you didn't ask about heaven but still I like to add that babies and young children who die go to heaven through the grace and righteous judgment of God. The Bible is clear that those who are not fully capable of making moral choices are declared to be innocent, and, therefore, worthy of heaven. The Bible does not mention any kind of "age of accountability," but bases accountability on the basis of the ability to make moral choices. In the following passage below God did not punish people who lived prior to Jesus Christ to demonstrate His righteousness and surely He will demonstrate His righteousness again concerning babies and very young children who do not know that Jesus Christ is their Lord Savior.
God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus. ---Romans 3:23-26
Someone ask this question the other day: so what is the purpose of a baby that dies, since this is all just a test to see who goes to heaven? and no I'm not asking if the baby will go to heaven
I wouldn't pose a question like that. First of all everyone will die someday, tomorrow is not promised to anyone. Some people die very young and some die very old, we just don't know when death will be coming our way.
As for babies dying, there are numerous explanations, for example premature births, SIDS, abuse, neglect, etc. Babies and young children as we all know are the most vulnerable to dying because of their under developed bodies and their helplessness. The mortality rates have been going down as compared to the past. I know when a baby dies it just breaks the hearts of their parents, it is so sad and painful to bear!
I know I didn't answer your question adequately but it appears you're suggesting that babies shouldn't die because they haven't gone through the test and it doesn't make sense to you, and so you ask what is their purpose for their living in the first place? Well the answer I gave above is as adequate as I can get.
I know you didn't ask about heaven but still I like to add that babies and young children who die go to heaven through the grace and righteous judgment of God. The Bible is clear that those who are not fully capable of making moral choices are declared to be innocent, and, therefore, worthy of heaven. The Bible does not mention any kind of "age of accountability," but bases accountability on the basis of the ability to make moral choices. In the following passage below God did not punish people who lived prior to Jesus Christ to demonstrate His righteousness and surely He will demonstrate His righteousness again concerning babies and very young children who do not know that Jesus Christ is their Lord Savior.
God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus. ---Romans 3:23-26
Someone ask this question the other day: so what is the purpose of a baby that dies, since this is all just a test to see who goes to heaven? and no I'm not asking if the baby will go to heaven
I wouldn't pose a question like that. First of all everyone will die someday, tomorrow is not promised to anyone. Some people die very young and some die very old, we just don't know when death will be coming our way.
As for babies dying, there are numerous explanations, for example premature births, SIDS, abuse, neglect, etc. Babies and young children as we all know are the most vulnerable to dying because of their under developed bodies and their helplessness. The mortality rates have been going down as compared to the past. I know when a baby dies it just breaks the hearts of their parents, it is so sad and painful to bear!
I know I didn't answer your question adequately but it appears you're suggesting that babies shouldn't die because they haven't gone through the test and it doesn't make sense to you, and so you ask what is their purpose for their living in the first place? Well the answer I gave above is as adequate as I can get.
I know you didn't ask about heaven but still I like to add that babies and young children who die go to heaven through the grace and righteous judgment of God. The Bible is clear that those who are not fully capable of making moral choices are declared to be innocent, and, therefore, worthy of heaven. The Bible does not mention any kind of "age of accountability," but bases accountability on the basis of the ability to make moral choices. In the following passage below God did not punish people who lived prior to Jesus Christ to demonstrate His righteousness and surely He will demonstrate His righteousness again concerning babies and very young children who do not know that Jesus Christ is their Lord Savior.
God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus. ---Romans 3:23-26
I know why you wouldn't pose a question like that, because you aren't able to answer it figures, you can save the rest for someone who believes the bs
Quote Originally Posted by SirJohnDrake:
Someone ask this question the other day: so what is the purpose of a baby that dies, since this is all just a test to see who goes to heaven? and no I'm not asking if the baby will go to heaven
I wouldn't pose a question like that. First of all everyone will die someday, tomorrow is not promised to anyone. Some people die very young and some die very old, we just don't know when death will be coming our way.
As for babies dying, there are numerous explanations, for example premature births, SIDS, abuse, neglect, etc. Babies and young children as we all know are the most vulnerable to dying because of their under developed bodies and their helplessness. The mortality rates have been going down as compared to the past. I know when a baby dies it just breaks the hearts of their parents, it is so sad and painful to bear!
I know I didn't answer your question adequately but it appears you're suggesting that babies shouldn't die because they haven't gone through the test and it doesn't make sense to you, and so you ask what is their purpose for their living in the first place? Well the answer I gave above is as adequate as I can get.
I know you didn't ask about heaven but still I like to add that babies and young children who die go to heaven through the grace and righteous judgment of God. The Bible is clear that those who are not fully capable of making moral choices are declared to be innocent, and, therefore, worthy of heaven. The Bible does not mention any kind of "age of accountability," but bases accountability on the basis of the ability to make moral choices. In the following passage below God did not punish people who lived prior to Jesus Christ to demonstrate His righteousness and surely He will demonstrate His righteousness again concerning babies and very young children who do not know that Jesus Christ is their Lord Savior.
God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus. ---Romans 3:23-26
I know why you wouldn't pose a question like that, because you aren't able to answer it figures, you can save the rest for someone who believes the bs
i don't get non-believers who debate this stuff with believers....
i used to do that all the time till a christian kinda shut me down. He asked me, if i spend as much time debating the existence of santa claus.....i really had no answer to that.
i like how matt and trey approach it.....on a commentary they both said...you know we don't hate religion...we are just jealous...most religious people lead really good lives...we wish we were like that.
its kinda true...i see church folks and to be honest....they lead pretty descent lives for the most part.
i don't get non-believers who debate this stuff with believers....
i used to do that all the time till a christian kinda shut me down. He asked me, if i spend as much time debating the existence of santa claus.....i really had no answer to that.
i like how matt and trey approach it.....on a commentary they both said...you know we don't hate religion...we are just jealous...most religious people lead really good lives...we wish we were like that.
its kinda true...i see church folks and to be honest....they lead pretty descent lives for the most part.
and besides...discussing religion on a betting website? lol.
Why do you laugh? Why not on a website where majority are non-believers?
Jesus told His disciples to spread the Good News, we today are also Jesus disciples spreading the Good News to non-believers on a gambling website who are the majority here.
Why would I go to a website where majority are believers? They don't need to be saved...get the point?
Quote Originally Posted by Longhorn007:
and besides...discussing religion on a betting website? lol.
Why do you laugh? Why not on a website where majority are non-believers?
Jesus told His disciples to spread the Good News, we today are also Jesus disciples spreading the Good News to non-believers on a gambling website who are the majority here.
Why would I go to a website where majority are believers? They don't need to be saved...get the point?
SJD - your problem with your answer to the baby question is it conflicts with a fundamental christian belief. Rostos has said previously that we are all sinners. That is why Jesus was sent down. If this is true, then the babies that die are sinners and should be damned to hell.
Furthermore, another problem is that if a baby goes to heaven, what does it do? It never got a chance to grow and learn how to do anything. Does it exist for all eternity as a baby? Does it "age" in heaven? I know you don't have the answers, but logically it seems to make no sense.
SJD - your problem with your answer to the baby question is it conflicts with a fundamental christian belief. Rostos has said previously that we are all sinners. That is why Jesus was sent down. If this is true, then the babies that die are sinners and should be damned to hell.
Furthermore, another problem is that if a baby goes to heaven, what does it do? It never got a chance to grow and learn how to do anything. Does it exist for all eternity as a baby? Does it "age" in heaven? I know you don't have the answers, but logically it seems to make no sense.
SJD - your problem with your answer to the baby question is it conflicts with a fundamental christian belief. Rostos has said previously that we are all sinners. That is why Jesus was sent down. If this is true, then the babies that die are sinners and should be damned to hell.
Furthermore, another problem is that if a baby goes to heaven, what does it do? It never got a chance to grow and learn how to do anything. Does it exist for all eternity as a baby? Does it "age" in heaven? I know you don't have the answers, but logically it seems to make no sense.
logic has no place in his world...
Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:
SJD - your problem with your answer to the baby question is it conflicts with a fundamental christian belief. Rostos has said previously that we are all sinners. That is why Jesus was sent down. If this is true, then the babies that die are sinners and should be damned to hell.
Furthermore, another problem is that if a baby goes to heaven, what does it do? It never got a chance to grow and learn how to do anything. Does it exist for all eternity as a baby? Does it "age" in heaven? I know you don't have the answers, but logically it seems to make no sense.
SJD - your problem with your answer to the baby question is it conflicts with a fundamental christian belief. Rostos has said previously that we are all sinners. That is why Jesus was sent down. If this is true, then the babies that die are sinners and should be damned to hell.
That's true that we all all sinners, the bible specifically states that people are sinners from their birth, so this obviously includes babies.
However babies are innocent. The Bible makes it clear that people are condemned to hell on the basis of their sins and their rejection of Jesus Christ as the remedy for their sinful condition.
However, infants and young children are incapable of fully understanding either their spiritual condition or God's requirements for salvation. Can God judge them even though they don't understand the basis of that judgment?
The Bible also indicates that children are regarded as being innocent because of their lack of ability to discern between good and evil:
"Moreover, your little ones who you said would become a prey, and your sons, who this day have no knowledge of good or evil, shall enter there, and I will give it to them and they shall possess it." (Deut. 1:39)
Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:
SJD - your problem with your answer to the baby question is it conflicts with a fundamental christian belief. Rostos has said previously that we are all sinners. That is why Jesus was sent down. If this is true, then the babies that die are sinners and should be damned to hell.
That's true that we all all sinners, the bible specifically states that people are sinners from their birth, so this obviously includes babies.
However babies are innocent. The Bible makes it clear that people are condemned to hell on the basis of their sins and their rejection of Jesus Christ as the remedy for their sinful condition.
However, infants and young children are incapable of fully understanding either their spiritual condition or God's requirements for salvation. Can God judge them even though they don't understand the basis of that judgment?
The Bible also indicates that children are regarded as being innocent because of their lack of ability to discern between good and evil:
"Moreover, your little ones who you said would become a prey, and your sons, who this day have no knowledge of good or evil, shall enter there, and I will give it to them and they shall possess it." (Deut. 1:39)
The doctrine of the Trinity — that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are each equally and eternally the one true God — is admittedly difficult to comprehend, and yet is the very foundation of Christian truth.
Skeptics may ridicule it as a mathematical impossibility, it is nevertheless a basic doctrine of Scripture as well as profoundly realistic in both universal experience and in the scientific understanding of the cosmos.
Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:
Jesus can't be god. He is the son of god.
Jesus is God...God the Son or Son of God
The doctrine of the Trinity — that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are each equally and eternally the one true God — is admittedly difficult to comprehend, and yet is the very foundation of Christian truth.
Skeptics may ridicule it as a mathematical impossibility, it is nevertheless a basic doctrine of Scripture as well as profoundly realistic in both universal experience and in the scientific understanding of the cosmos.
Always dangerous when trying to put yourself in the shoes of the judge.
The reality is we arent the judge. The issue with the baby and the implicaions of them not living a full a full life to learn etc etc is a complicated one.
This is not a cop out, but i believe it is Gods way of saying, dont interfere and judge , mind your own business.
Always dangerous when trying to put yourself in the shoes of the judge.
The reality is we arent the judge. The issue with the baby and the implicaions of them not living a full a full life to learn etc etc is a complicated one.
This is not a cop out, but i believe it is Gods way of saying, dont interfere and judge , mind your own business.
I know we are bantering on this thread, and all that is good, but I want to share something with you all that is very personal, and I would appreciate your treating this with respect and don't bash it if you respond to it. Everything elseis fair game, as far as I am concerned.
Funny (not really) that you picked that example. I lost a baby son. I speak from experience. In the hospital, I held his dead body, I could not help but gently rock him anyway, and wondered why it happened. I learned how, after they explained to me it was something medically and no one could have done anything to help it. But, it was difficult to heal from that, much less answer the spiritual questions you raise. People who have an opinion about something, have not experienced that thing for themselves. When people experience something, they have a belief because they know the decisions made and the event itself will effect them for the rest of their lives. It still effects me to this day, 18 years ago.
Grief like that is a lonely thing, with no where to go for relief. Eventually, my faith helped me resolve the "why" of it. There are simply some things that have no answer in this life, and that He will make clear in the next. I trust Him enough on things as important as this. More people showed up for his funeral than I could have imagined. Although he only lived a short time, he effected many lives. To what end, only God knows.
I miss my son, but I know he is in heaven. How do I know? Well, I'll just share that I had an experience with an angel the evening before his funeral, and leave it at that (even though you might want to mock this, please don't on this one thing) But, from a spiritual law point of view.... Jesus said, unless you become like a little child, you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. He was speaking about a spiritual law, which cannot be broken. As adults, we have to believe like little children, trusting God as our Father as a new born child does, totally dependent on his parents for everything, or he will surely die. Spiritual laws cannot be broken. If we believe that way, have that trust and faith, when we die we go to be with Him instantly. When my son died, he had that same faith, and is with Him now.
Aside from that I have theory, but it is just my guess. I believe we are all in heaven before we come here, with God. The love, trust, faith that we know as newborns comes right from heaven. As we grow, we forget it eventually, and become adults. When Jesus said we must be "born again", he meant we must know God in that way again. Jesus came to make that possible, to trust like little children again, and know that peace, that love that comes right from heaven.
Not sure that helps you answer your question. But it does support my comments about experience over knowledge having to do with knowing God in a way where it casts out all doubt about it.
I know we are bantering on this thread, and all that is good, but I want to share something with you all that is very personal, and I would appreciate your treating this with respect and don't bash it if you respond to it. Everything elseis fair game, as far as I am concerned.
Funny (not really) that you picked that example. I lost a baby son. I speak from experience. In the hospital, I held his dead body, I could not help but gently rock him anyway, and wondered why it happened. I learned how, after they explained to me it was something medically and no one could have done anything to help it. But, it was difficult to heal from that, much less answer the spiritual questions you raise. People who have an opinion about something, have not experienced that thing for themselves. When people experience something, they have a belief because they know the decisions made and the event itself will effect them for the rest of their lives. It still effects me to this day, 18 years ago.
Grief like that is a lonely thing, with no where to go for relief. Eventually, my faith helped me resolve the "why" of it. There are simply some things that have no answer in this life, and that He will make clear in the next. I trust Him enough on things as important as this. More people showed up for his funeral than I could have imagined. Although he only lived a short time, he effected many lives. To what end, only God knows.
I miss my son, but I know he is in heaven. How do I know? Well, I'll just share that I had an experience with an angel the evening before his funeral, and leave it at that (even though you might want to mock this, please don't on this one thing) But, from a spiritual law point of view.... Jesus said, unless you become like a little child, you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. He was speaking about a spiritual law, which cannot be broken. As adults, we have to believe like little children, trusting God as our Father as a new born child does, totally dependent on his parents for everything, or he will surely die. Spiritual laws cannot be broken. If we believe that way, have that trust and faith, when we die we go to be with Him instantly. When my son died, he had that same faith, and is with Him now.
Aside from that I have theory, but it is just my guess. I believe we are all in heaven before we come here, with God. The love, trust, faith that we know as newborns comes right from heaven. As we grow, we forget it eventually, and become adults. When Jesus said we must be "born again", he meant we must know God in that way again. Jesus came to make that possible, to trust like little children again, and know that peace, that love that comes right from heaven.
Not sure that helps you answer your question. But it does support my comments about experience over knowledge having to do with knowing God in a way where it casts out all doubt about it.
i don't get non-believers who debate this stuff with believers....
i used to do that all the time till a christian kinda shut me down. He asked me, if i spend as much time debating the existence of santa claus.....i really had no answer to that.
i like how matt and trey approach it.....on a commentary they both said...you know we don't hate religion...we are just jealous...most religious people lead really good lives...we wish we were like that.
its kinda true...i see church folks and to be honest....they lead pretty descent lives for the most part.
This is exactly what i said.
If i started a thread that i believe in the wizard of oz and he really exists, do you really think we would still be here 33 pages later discussing it?
Dare i say System and KK on page 1 would have called me mad and NEVER returned. I know if someone else started one i would have done the same thing.
Yet, 33 pages later they are still here...
Strange that.
Quote Originally Posted by Longhorn007:
i don't get non-believers who debate this stuff with believers....
i used to do that all the time till a christian kinda shut me down. He asked me, if i spend as much time debating the existence of santa claus.....i really had no answer to that.
i like how matt and trey approach it.....on a commentary they both said...you know we don't hate religion...we are just jealous...most religious people lead really good lives...we wish we were like that.
its kinda true...i see church folks and to be honest....they lead pretty descent lives for the most part.
This is exactly what i said.
If i started a thread that i believe in the wizard of oz and he really exists, do you really think we would still be here 33 pages later discussing it?
Dare i say System and KK on page 1 would have called me mad and NEVER returned. I know if someone else started one i would have done the same thing.
I know we are bantering on this thread, and all that is good, but I want to share something with you all that is very personal, and I would appreciate your treating this with respect and don't bash it if you respond to it. Everything elseis fair game, as far as I am concerned.
Funny (not really) that you picked that example. I lost a baby son. I speak from experience. In the hospital, I held his dead body, I could not help but gently rock him anyway, and wondered why it happened. I learned how, after they explained to me it was something medically and no one could have done anything to help it. But, it was difficult to heal from that, much less answer the spiritual questions you raise. People who have an opinion about something, have not experienced that thing for themselves. When people experience something, they have a belief because they know the decisions made and the event itself will effect them for the rest of their lives. It still effects me to this day, 18 years ago.
Grief like that is a lonely thing, with no where to go for relief. Eventually, my faith helped me resolve the "why" of it. There are simply some things that have no answer in this life, and that He will make clear in the next. I trust Him enough on things as important as this. More people showed up for his funeral than I could have imagined. Although he only lived a short time, he effected many lives. To what end, only God knows.
I miss my son, but I know he is in heaven. How do I know? Well, I'll just share that I had an experience with an angel the evening before his funeral, and leave it at that (even though you might want to mock this, please don't on this one thing) But, from a spiritual law point of view.... Jesus said, unless you become like a little child, you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. He was speaking about a spiritual law, which cannot be broken. As adults, we have to believe like little children, trusting God as our Father as a new born child does, totally dependent on his parents for everything, or he will surely die. Spiritual laws cannot be broken. If we believe that way, have that trust and faith, when we die we go to be with Him instantly. When my son died, he had that same faith, and is with Him now.
Aside from that I have theory, but it is just my guess. I believe we are all in heaven before we come here, with God. The love, trust, faith that we know as newborns comes right from heaven. As we grow, we forget it eventually, and become adults. When Jesus said we must be "born again", he meant we must know God in that way again. Jesus came to make that possible, to trust like little children again, and know that peace, that love that comes right from heaven.
Not sure that helps you answer your question. But it does support my comments about experience over knowledge having to do with knowing God in a way where it casts out all doubt about it.
Sorry to hear you lost your baby son 18 yrs. ago. But I know it brings comfort to you knowong your son is in heaven with God.
Quote Originally Posted by yesterday:
I know we are bantering on this thread, and all that is good, but I want to share something with you all that is very personal, and I would appreciate your treating this with respect and don't bash it if you respond to it. Everything elseis fair game, as far as I am concerned.
Funny (not really) that you picked that example. I lost a baby son. I speak from experience. In the hospital, I held his dead body, I could not help but gently rock him anyway, and wondered why it happened. I learned how, after they explained to me it was something medically and no one could have done anything to help it. But, it was difficult to heal from that, much less answer the spiritual questions you raise. People who have an opinion about something, have not experienced that thing for themselves. When people experience something, they have a belief because they know the decisions made and the event itself will effect them for the rest of their lives. It still effects me to this day, 18 years ago.
Grief like that is a lonely thing, with no where to go for relief. Eventually, my faith helped me resolve the "why" of it. There are simply some things that have no answer in this life, and that He will make clear in the next. I trust Him enough on things as important as this. More people showed up for his funeral than I could have imagined. Although he only lived a short time, he effected many lives. To what end, only God knows.
I miss my son, but I know he is in heaven. How do I know? Well, I'll just share that I had an experience with an angel the evening before his funeral, and leave it at that (even though you might want to mock this, please don't on this one thing) But, from a spiritual law point of view.... Jesus said, unless you become like a little child, you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. He was speaking about a spiritual law, which cannot be broken. As adults, we have to believe like little children, trusting God as our Father as a new born child does, totally dependent on his parents for everything, or he will surely die. Spiritual laws cannot be broken. If we believe that way, have that trust and faith, when we die we go to be with Him instantly. When my son died, he had that same faith, and is with Him now.
Aside from that I have theory, but it is just my guess. I believe we are all in heaven before we come here, with God. The love, trust, faith that we know as newborns comes right from heaven. As we grow, we forget it eventually, and become adults. When Jesus said we must be "born again", he meant we must know God in that way again. Jesus came to make that possible, to trust like little children again, and know that peace, that love that comes right from heaven.
Not sure that helps you answer your question. But it does support my comments about experience over knowledge having to do with knowing God in a way where it casts out all doubt about it.
Sorry to hear you lost your baby son 18 yrs. ago. But I know it brings comfort to you knowong your son is in heaven with God.
That's true that we all all sinners, the bible specifically states that people are sinners from their birth, so this obviously includes babies.
However babies are innocent. The Bible makes it clear that people are condemned to hell on the basis of their sins and their rejection of Jesus Christ as the remedy for their sinful condition.
However, infants and young children are incapable of fully understanding either their spiritual condition or God's requirements for salvation. Can God judge them even though they don't understand the basis of that judgment?
The Bible also indicates that children are regarded as being innocent because of their lack of ability to discern between good and evil:
"Moreover, your little ones who you said would become a prey, and your sons, who this day have no knowledge of good or evil, shall enter there, and I will give it to them and they shall possess it." (Deut. 1:39)
I like the tone we have in this discussion here. It is civil. Let's not change that. So I'd like you to address something you had to expect me to point out. You say that we are sinners from birth. You also say that babies are innocent. How is it possible that a person can be both a sinner and innocent simultaneously? It would seem that the two cannot be present at the same time.
As for YESTERDAY. I can't even begin to imagine how terrible it would be to lose a child like that. I am truly sorry you had to go through that. I am not going to attack you, but merely question why you would believe in a god that would do something so cruel as to take away your son? I personally wouldn't care if he had some "master plan" or whatever. I can't think of any conceivable reason to take away a child at birth. I feel like I am not out of line in saying that an all good and all perfect god would NEVER take the life of an innocent child.
Quote Originally Posted by SirJohnDrake:
That's true that we all all sinners, the bible specifically states that people are sinners from their birth, so this obviously includes babies.
However babies are innocent. The Bible makes it clear that people are condemned to hell on the basis of their sins and their rejection of Jesus Christ as the remedy for their sinful condition.
However, infants and young children are incapable of fully understanding either their spiritual condition or God's requirements for salvation. Can God judge them even though they don't understand the basis of that judgment?
The Bible also indicates that children are regarded as being innocent because of their lack of ability to discern between good and evil:
"Moreover, your little ones who you said would become a prey, and your sons, who this day have no knowledge of good or evil, shall enter there, and I will give it to them and they shall possess it." (Deut. 1:39)
I like the tone we have in this discussion here. It is civil. Let's not change that. So I'd like you to address something you had to expect me to point out. You say that we are sinners from birth. You also say that babies are innocent. How is it possible that a person can be both a sinner and innocent simultaneously? It would seem that the two cannot be present at the same time.
As for YESTERDAY. I can't even begin to imagine how terrible it would be to lose a child like that. I am truly sorry you had to go through that. I am not going to attack you, but merely question why you would believe in a god that would do something so cruel as to take away your son? I personally wouldn't care if he had some "master plan" or whatever. I can't think of any conceivable reason to take away a child at birth. I feel like I am not out of line in saying that an all good and all perfect god would NEVER take the life of an innocent child.
I like the tone we have in this discussion here. It is civil. Let's not change that. So I'd like you to address something you had to expect me to point out. You say that we are sinners from birth. You also say that babies are innocent. How is it possible that a person can be both a sinner and innocent simultaneously? It would seem that the two cannot be present at the same time.
I probably have no place in this discussion, and I'm sure you may be thinking, "yeah some random new poster here just to talk about religion". And you may very well think that and be justified. But if you would just entertain me for a moment, I may be able to address your concern.
When someone is said to be 'born in sin" it refers to their very nature -- the innate nature of their volition itself. We are all volitional repercussions of the same entity, in Christian theology this entity is called "Adam", though I suspect you may call it what you wish. All in all, we are all Adam, and by Adam we were proven to be innately "sinful".
BTW, (and I'm going to keep on going on but), if you find anything I said puzzling just stop reading and ask me to clarify a point. This post goes in a sequential order, so unless you can understand something said previously, you might not be able to accept something said later. So by all means ask if I'm being confusing, or disagree if you disagree with me so far.
Now, we are all innately sinful -- because we are all Adam. That alone is enough to judge us. We could be innately sinful, but never actually sin (due to ignorance of law, which the babies, mentally disabled, etc. have, and thus they are exempt, or due to just doing everything right all the time, which we could do, but never actually do). But that doesn't mean that we aren't sinful.
That is what it means by "All have come short" -- our very nature, our own volition, is what pushes us away from God.
You know, I think I've said a mouthful. So I'll allow this time for you to ask questions, agree with me, and disagree with me and provide arguments wherever you may. After that, I'll continue into the doctrine of Judgement, and then, if we get that far, the doctrine of Christ and Salvation (which is, the Gospel).
If you don't want to talk about this at all, though, you could just ignore me. And that's fine too, I guess.
Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:
I like the tone we have in this discussion here. It is civil. Let's not change that. So I'd like you to address something you had to expect me to point out. You say that we are sinners from birth. You also say that babies are innocent. How is it possible that a person can be both a sinner and innocent simultaneously? It would seem that the two cannot be present at the same time.
I probably have no place in this discussion, and I'm sure you may be thinking, "yeah some random new poster here just to talk about religion". And you may very well think that and be justified. But if you would just entertain me for a moment, I may be able to address your concern.
When someone is said to be 'born in sin" it refers to their very nature -- the innate nature of their volition itself. We are all volitional repercussions of the same entity, in Christian theology this entity is called "Adam", though I suspect you may call it what you wish. All in all, we are all Adam, and by Adam we were proven to be innately "sinful".
BTW, (and I'm going to keep on going on but), if you find anything I said puzzling just stop reading and ask me to clarify a point. This post goes in a sequential order, so unless you can understand something said previously, you might not be able to accept something said later. So by all means ask if I'm being confusing, or disagree if you disagree with me so far.
Now, we are all innately sinful -- because we are all Adam. That alone is enough to judge us. We could be innately sinful, but never actually sin (due to ignorance of law, which the babies, mentally disabled, etc. have, and thus they are exempt, or due to just doing everything right all the time, which we could do, but never actually do). But that doesn't mean that we aren't sinful.
That is what it means by "All have come short" -- our very nature, our own volition, is what pushes us away from God.
You know, I think I've said a mouthful. So I'll allow this time for you to ask questions, agree with me, and disagree with me and provide arguments wherever you may. After that, I'll continue into the doctrine of Judgement, and then, if we get that far, the doctrine of Christ and Salvation (which is, the Gospel).
If you don't want to talk about this at all, though, you could just ignore me. And that's fine too, I guess.
I probably have no place in this discussion, and I'm sure you may be thinking, "yeah some random new poster here just to talk about religion". And you may very well think that and be justified. But if you would just entertain me for a moment, I may be able to address your concern.
When someone is said to be 'born in sin" it refers to their very nature -- the innate nature of their volition itself. We are all volitional repercussions of the same entity, in Christian theology this entity is called "Adam", though I suspect you may call it what you wish. All in all, we are all Adam, and by Adam we were proven to be innately "sinful".
BTW, (and I'm going to keep on going on but), if you find anything I said puzzling just stop reading and ask me to clarify a point. This post goes in a sequential order, so unless you can understand something said previously, you might not be able to accept something said later. So by all means ask if I'm being confusing, or disagree if you disagree with me so far.
Now, we are all innately sinful -- because we are all Adam. That alone is enough to judge us. We could be innately sinful, but never actually sin (due to ignorance of law, which the babies, mentally disabled, etc. have, and thus they are exempt, or due to just doing everything right all the time, which we could do, but never actually do). But that doesn't mean that we aren't sinful.
That is what it means by "All have come short" -- our very nature, our own volition, is what pushes us away from God.
You know, I think I've said a mouthful. So I'll allow this time for you to ask questions, agree with me, and disagree with me and provide arguments wherever you may. After that, I'll continue into the doctrine of Judgement, and then, if we get that far, the doctrine of Christ and Salvation (which is, the Gospel).
If you don't want to talk about this at all, though, you could just ignore me. And that's fine too, I guess.
Quote Originally Posted by archsage:
I probably have no place in this discussion, and I'm sure you may be thinking, "yeah some random new poster here just to talk about religion". And you may very well think that and be justified. But if you would just entertain me for a moment, I may be able to address your concern.
When someone is said to be 'born in sin" it refers to their very nature -- the innate nature of their volition itself. We are all volitional repercussions of the same entity, in Christian theology this entity is called "Adam", though I suspect you may call it what you wish. All in all, we are all Adam, and by Adam we were proven to be innately "sinful".
BTW, (and I'm going to keep on going on but), if you find anything I said puzzling just stop reading and ask me to clarify a point. This post goes in a sequential order, so unless you can understand something said previously, you might not be able to accept something said later. So by all means ask if I'm being confusing, or disagree if you disagree with me so far.
Now, we are all innately sinful -- because we are all Adam. That alone is enough to judge us. We could be innately sinful, but never actually sin (due to ignorance of law, which the babies, mentally disabled, etc. have, and thus they are exempt, or due to just doing everything right all the time, which we could do, but never actually do). But that doesn't mean that we aren't sinful.
That is what it means by "All have come short" -- our very nature, our own volition, is what pushes us away from God.
You know, I think I've said a mouthful. So I'll allow this time for you to ask questions, agree with me, and disagree with me and provide arguments wherever you may. After that, I'll continue into the doctrine of Judgement, and then, if we get that far, the doctrine of Christ and Salvation (which is, the Gospel).
If you don't want to talk about this at all, though, you could just ignore me. And that's fine too, I guess.
If i started a thread that i believe in the wizard of oz and he really exists, do you really think we would still be here 33 pages later discussing it?
Dare i say System and KK on page 1 would have called me mad and NEVER returned. I know if someone else started one i would have done the same thing.
Yet, 33 pages later they are still here...
Strange that.
not really strange, as I already told you why...
Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:
This is exactly what i said.
If i started a thread that i believe in the wizard of oz and he really exists, do you really think we would still be here 33 pages later discussing it?
Dare i say System and KK on page 1 would have called me mad and NEVER returned. I know if someone else started one i would have done the same thing.
yesterday, very sorry for your loss, but I believe a lot of people use religion for comfort and to try to explain things they don't understand.
If you had a personal experience ("visit from an angel"), that is great for you, but does nothing for anybody else...
This is true. Though I suspect there are a lot of people who use what you would call "religion" as mere undeniable truth. Whether one way or another, it doesn't at all diminish the importance or validity of "religious" claims.
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what it's used for, or how one feels about it, or whatever else. All that matters is if it is true or not. And there does logic, rationality and reason play an important, integral part into all of our lives.
Anyway, I wish I knew what your question was too, bro, I'd be happy to try and answer it if I could. It's great to see that you are at least searching for answers, and not completely hidebound into atheism -- it's the mark of a true intellectual. Would you care to extend the burden of answering the question to me?
Quote Originally Posted by SYSTEM:
still no answer to my question, interesting...
yesterday, very sorry for your loss, but I believe a lot of people use religion for comfort and to try to explain things they don't understand.
If you had a personal experience ("visit from an angel"), that is great for you, but does nothing for anybody else...
This is true. Though I suspect there are a lot of people who use what you would call "religion" as mere undeniable truth. Whether one way or another, it doesn't at all diminish the importance or validity of "religious" claims.
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what it's used for, or how one feels about it, or whatever else. All that matters is if it is true or not. And there does logic, rationality and reason play an important, integral part into all of our lives.
Anyway, I wish I knew what your question was too, bro, I'd be happy to try and answer it if I could. It's great to see that you are at least searching for answers, and not completely hidebound into atheism -- it's the mark of a true intellectual. Would you care to extend the burden of answering the question to me?
Furthermore, another problem is that if a baby goes to heaven, what does it do? It never got a chance to grow and learn how to do anything. Does it exist for all eternity as a baby? Does it "age" in heaven? I know you don't have the answers, but logically it seems to make no sense.
Good questions but as you said, you know I don't have the answers. Things always seems to make no sense to you, that is the one thing that is impeding your belief. I know there are many people like you that just don't understand, there are lots of things that all of us just don't understand.
But why let mystery cause you to refuse the Master? Do you understand the chemistry of digestion? Does your ignorance of it keep you from eating steak? Can you understand why the same sun and the same soil and the same rain get sweetness into the orange and sourness into the lemon and bitterness into the persimmon?
Lay aside your excuse of mystery and trust God as you trust the telephone to transmit your voice.
Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:
.
Furthermore, another problem is that if a baby goes to heaven, what does it do? It never got a chance to grow and learn how to do anything. Does it exist for all eternity as a baby? Does it "age" in heaven? I know you don't have the answers, but logically it seems to make no sense.
Good questions but as you said, you know I don't have the answers. Things always seems to make no sense to you, that is the one thing that is impeding your belief. I know there are many people like you that just don't understand, there are lots of things that all of us just don't understand.
But why let mystery cause you to refuse the Master? Do you understand the chemistry of digestion? Does your ignorance of it keep you from eating steak? Can you understand why the same sun and the same soil and the same rain get sweetness into the orange and sourness into the lemon and bitterness into the persimmon?
Lay aside your excuse of mystery and trust God as you trust the telephone to transmit your voice.
I probably have no place in this discussion, and I'm sure you may be thinking, "yeah some random new poster here just to talk about religion". And you may very well think that and be justified. But if you would just entertain me for a moment, I may be able to address your concern.
When someone is said to be 'born in sin" it refers to their very nature -- the innate nature of their volition itself. We are all volitional repercussions of the same entity, in Christian theology this entity is called "Adam", though I suspect you may call it what you wish. All in all, we are all Adam, and by Adam we were proven to be innately "sinful".
BTW, (and I'm going to keep on going on but), if you find anything I said puzzling just stop reading and ask me to clarify a point. This post goes in a sequential order, so unless you can understand something said previously, you might not be able to accept something said later. So by all means ask if I'm being confusing, or disagree if you disagree with me so far.
Now, we are all innately sinful -- because we are all Adam. That alone is enough to judge us. We could be innately sinful, but never actually sin (due to ignorance of law, which the babies, mentally disabled, etc. have, and thus they are exempt, or due to just doing everything right all the time, which we could do, but never actually do). But that doesn't mean that we aren't sinful.
That is what it means by "All have come short" -- our very nature, our own volition, is what pushes us away from God.
You know, I think I've said a mouthful. So I'll allow this time for you to ask questions, agree with me, and disagree with me and provide arguments wherever you may. After that, I'll continue into the doctrine of Judgement, and then, if we get that far, the doctrine of Christ and Salvation (which is, the Gospel).
If you don't want to talk about this at all, though, you could just ignore me. And that's fine too, I guess.
Well said!
Should thoroughly answer KKays question.
Quote Originally Posted by archsage:
I probably have no place in this discussion, and I'm sure you may be thinking, "yeah some random new poster here just to talk about religion". And you may very well think that and be justified. But if you would just entertain me for a moment, I may be able to address your concern.
When someone is said to be 'born in sin" it refers to their very nature -- the innate nature of their volition itself. We are all volitional repercussions of the same entity, in Christian theology this entity is called "Adam", though I suspect you may call it what you wish. All in all, we are all Adam, and by Adam we were proven to be innately "sinful".
BTW, (and I'm going to keep on going on but), if you find anything I said puzzling just stop reading and ask me to clarify a point. This post goes in a sequential order, so unless you can understand something said previously, you might not be able to accept something said later. So by all means ask if I'm being confusing, or disagree if you disagree with me so far.
Now, we are all innately sinful -- because we are all Adam. That alone is enough to judge us. We could be innately sinful, but never actually sin (due to ignorance of law, which the babies, mentally disabled, etc. have, and thus they are exempt, or due to just doing everything right all the time, which we could do, but never actually do). But that doesn't mean that we aren't sinful.
That is what it means by "All have come short" -- our very nature, our own volition, is what pushes us away from God.
You know, I think I've said a mouthful. So I'll allow this time for you to ask questions, agree with me, and disagree with me and provide arguments wherever you may. After that, I'll continue into the doctrine of Judgement, and then, if we get that far, the doctrine of Christ and Salvation (which is, the Gospel).
If you don't want to talk about this at all, though, you could just ignore me. And that's fine too, I guess.
figures, you can save the rest for someone who believes the bs
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