Posted:
#826
I just took a big dump! 
If Christ died on the cross for all of humanity
Posted:
#828
Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:
Fact: People murder in the name of religion
Fact: People murder in the name of religion
Fact: People do very good things in the name of religion
Fact: Atheists do very good things
Fact: Atheists perform evil acts
Not sure what the purpose of all this is?
Religious as well as atheists do good things and evil things...which is true!
The only ones who are going to be saved are the religious people who have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord Savior and turned away from their sins and sin no more.
The religious people who keep on sinning who say they are doing their evil deeds in the name of religion along with the atheist who do good or bad will be condemned according to the Scriptures...and that is a fact!
Posted:
#830
Well SJD. Obviously that isn't a FACT. I'm the only one who is stating facts. But at least it makes sense within the context of your fantasy world...well...except for the part where you said the atheist who does good will be condemned.
So. New question.
Person A is a devout christian. Goes to church. Praises god. But...he's an evil man. He has murdered before (and gotten away with it). He molests children and he steals. But he always repents for his sins even though he clearly continues to sin.
Person B is a staunch atheist. He doesn't just not believe, he ridicules god and thinks the concept of god is ridiculous. This man is a wonderful man though. He gives to charity, helps the poor, has a wonderful family who he cares for greatly. He is essentially as noble of a man as a human can be. On his death bed, he refuses to accept god, saying he has lived his life to the fullest and done the best he can with it and that is the only thing that matters.
According to you SJD, what will happen to Person A and Person B individually upon their deaths?
Posted:
#831
Quote Originally Posted by SirJohnDrake:
Good questions but as you said, you know I don't have the answers. Things always seems to make no sense to you, that is the one thing that is impeding your belief. I know there are many people like you that just don't understand, there are lots of things that all of us just don't understand.
But why let mystery cause you to refuse the Master? Do you understand the chemistry of digestion? Does your ignorance of it keep you from eating steak? Can you understand why the same sun and the same soil and the same rain get sweetness into the orange and sourness into the lemon and bitterness into the persimmon?
Lay aside your excuse of mystery and trust God as you trust the telephone to transmit your voice.
Didn't see this initially so sorry for the double post. The reason I let mystery deter me is because I know that no one knows for a fact. Regarding chemistry or quantum physics or other things I don't understand like how a computer turns metal into this, I know that someone KNOWS how they work and if I tried hard enough, I could learn it too. I could NEVER learn that god exists with the same certainty that I could learn how a computer works. That is the difference for me.
Posted:
#832
Your example A person can't be a devout Christian if he continues to sin. People who are devout and born again Christians don't continue on sinning.
But to answer your question both of course will face the judgment of God and according to the Scriptures both of them will be condemned.
So it is not according to me but as I stated it's according to the Scriptures.
Posted:
#834
Quote Originally Posted by SirJohnDrake:
Your example A person can't be a devout Christian if he continues to sin. People who are devout and born again Christians don't continue on sinning.
But to answer your question both of course will face the judgment of God and according to the Scriptures both of them will be condemned.
So it is not according to me but as I stated it's according to the Scriptures.
FINALLY! THANK YOU SJD. I APPRECIATE THIS. This argument has come to a close for me because I have finally gotten something concrete that proves with 100% certainty that Christianity, regardless of whether god exists or any of that, is a terrible religion that NO ONE should follow.
If Person B in my example is to be condemned based on Christian beliefs, then no self-respecting human being can follow that religion. Surely you must see this? This hypothetical man was as perfect as a human can be, but he is condemned because he doesn't accept god? That's absurd. A person should be judged on their actions not beliefs. If a Nazi who absolutely despises person lives his life as a noble individual and even though he hates person, he gives to Jewish charities and helps poor person out, should he be hated by society because of his beliefs? Surely as long as he does no wrong, he should not be looked down upon, regardless of what he may personally believe. The same applies to my Person B. If every night he renounces the concept of god, but every day he's doing all he can to help those in need, how can you justify condemning him?
I believe my inquest into religion is complete (unless SJD is mistaken) and no further debates will be necessary, at least not regarding this issue.
Posted:
#835
Quote Originally Posted by archsage:
This is true. Though I suspect there are a lot of people who use what you would call "religion" as mere undeniable truth. Whether one way or another, it doesn't at all diminish the importance or validity of "religious" claims.
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what it's used for, or how one feels about it, or whatever else. All that matters is if it is true or not. And there does logic, rationality and reason play an important, integral part into all of our lives.
Anyway, I wish I knew what your question was too, bro, I'd be happy to try and answer it if I could. It's great to see that you are at least searching for answers, and not completely hidebound into atheism -- it's the mark of a true intellectual. Would you care to extend the burden of answering the question to me?
This is true. Though I suspect there are a lot of people who use what you would call "religion" as mere undeniable truth. Whether one way or another, it doesn't at all diminish the importance or validity of "religious" claims.
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what it's used for, or how one feels about it, or whatever else. All that matters is if it is true or not. And there does logic, rationality and reason play an important, integral part into all of our lives.
Anyway, I wish I knew what your question was too, bro, I'd be happy to try and answer it if I could. It's great to see that you are at least searching for answers, and not completely hidebound into atheism -- it's the mark of a true intellectual. Would you care to extend the burden of answering the question to me?
here is the question again... since the purpose of our lives is to see if we will believe in "god" or not, then what is the purpose of a baby that dies? Or in that case, what is the purpose of somebody who never hears of god, or a person who cannot mentally understand the concept of god?
Posted:
#836
Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:
FINALLY! THANK YOU SJD. I APPRECIATE THIS. This argument has come to a close for me because I have finally gotten something concrete that proves with 100% certainty that Christianity, regardless of whether god exists or any of that, is a terrible religion that NO ONE should follow.
If Person B in my example is to be condemned based on Christian beliefs, then no self-respecting human being can follow that religion. Surely you must see this? This hypothetical man was as perfect as a human can be, but he is condemned because he doesn't accept god? That's absurd. A person should be judged on their actions not beliefs. If a Nazi who absolutely despises person lives his life as a noble individual and even though he hates person, he gives to Jewish charities and helps poor person out, should he be hated by society because of his beliefs? Surely as long as he does no wrong, he should not be looked down upon, regardless of what he may personally believe. The same applies to my Person B. If every night he renounces the concept of god, but every day he's doing all he can to help those in need, how can you justify condemning him?
I believe my inquest into religion is complete (unless SJD is mistaken) and no further debates will be necessary, at least not regarding this issue.
that's the problem with this religion, it doesn't matter what you do, as long as you repent your sins and believe in god... tell me I'm wrong...
Posted:
#837
KK we have said numerous times that no one is perfect. That man has sinned before and so he still has the sin debt to pay because he didn't accept Jesus Christ as Lord Savior who would have paid his sin debt if he had accepted Christ and so because he still has this sin debt to pay he will be condemned.
In your example you said he ridiculed God and that sir is a sin and according to the scripture it's an unpardonable sin...blasphemy sin directed to God is unpardonable.
Again no human being is perfectly clean of sin, the only one who was without sin was Jesus Christ our Lord Savior! 
Posted:
#838
See SJD. Once again you have outlined the problem PERFECTLY, so well done there.
You mean to tell me that ridiculing god is worse than murder? Come on. You can't honestly believe that.
You think that this all perfect god would act like a cranky 5 year old when someone makes fun of him? "Waa. You made fun of me. No heaven for you. I don't care if you did more good than Mother Theresa. You made fun of me. Waaaa."
Is that your depiction of god?
It seems to me that a supreme being would be able to look past the blasphemy and reward the righteous man for doing everything else right.
Posted:
#839
Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:
See SJD. Once again you have outlined the problem PERFECTLY, so well done there.
See SJD. Once again you have outlined the problem PERFECTLY, so well done there.
You mean to tell me that ridiculing god is worse than murder? Come on. You can't honestly believe that.
You think that this all perfect god would act like a cranky 5 year old when someone makes fun of him? "Waa. You made fun of me. No heaven for you. I don't care if you did more good than Mother Theresa. You made fun of me. Waaaa."
Is that your depiction of god?
It seems to me that a supreme being would be able to look past the blasphemy and reward the righteous man for doing everything else right.
this is what I have been trying to say since day one! 
and why is this "god" who "created" everything so into punishment????? and if it was into punishment, why not punish for things that make sense, not whether you believe or not? it's because religion was created by man!
one of my favorite videos 
Posted:
#840
Quote Originally Posted by SYSTEM:
here is the question again... since the purpose of our lives is to see if we will believe in "god" or not, then what is the purpose of a baby that dies? Or in that case, what is the purpose of somebody who never hears of god, or a person who cannot mentally understand the concept of god?
Babies are sinless. When i said we are all sinners , i am refering to the age of accountability. The age where you can tell the difference between right and wrong.
Babies and mentally handicapped babies are sinless.
Babies and mentally handicapped children go straight to heavan.
The difference is, that we have Jesus Christ for our sins. You just need to admit that you are a sinner and accept him as your saviour and you will ALSO just like the baby be saved.
Posted:
#841
Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:
Babies are sinless. When i said we are all sinners , i am refering to the age of accountability. The age where you can tell the difference between right and wrong.
Babies and mentally handicapped babies are sinless.
Babies and mentally handicapped children go straight to heavan.
The difference is, that we have Jesus Christ for our sins. You just need to admit that you are a sinner and accept him as your saviour and you will ALSO just like the baby be saved.
read the question again, carefully
Posted:
#842
Quote Originally Posted by SYSTEM:
that's the problem with this religion, it doesn't matter what you do, as long as you repent your sins and believe in god... tell me I'm wrong...
What you're saying seems quite contradictory...
But try and understand. No one is brought into heaven because they are "good". You don't buy your way into heaven like that. The criteria for being in heaven is perfection. If, and only if, you are perfect, then your place in heaven is guaranteed.
However, no one is perfect. No man/woman is a god -- no man/woman is like God. And that's the problem. A perfect place is only for perfect entities.
It doesn't matter if you did more outwardly good things than "the next guy" in the relatively short manner of time you're hearts been beating. What matters is perfection. That is the criteria. Anyone who is not perfect doesn't deserve the perfect rewards. Simple as that.
So what then, will we all die? Pretty much. Look around you. That's the fate of all mankind.
Should we have no hope then? Atheism suggests yes. Even religions of the Law (like buddhism, messiah-less judaism, and islam) all intrinsically suggest this notion. So how can an imperfect being enter a state that is only for perfect entities?
Grace. Someone on the inside has to let them in, so to speak. Thus is Christianity. It's about being forgiven for your imperfections, through love and faith. We aren't perfect, but by rejecting our imperfections for the sake of the one who will allow us in (which is faith in and of itself), the righteousness of one will vindicate us.
It's not about being perfect, but about faithfully wanting to be. There will be justice outside of grace, and everyone who is not perfect will be thrown away. This is what Christianity is about. Not about judging people (because by rejecting salvation they have been judged in themselves already). It's about being faithful.
Again, I've said a mouthful. So if you guys have any questions or concerns, disagreements or arguments, please feel free to ask.
Posted:
#843
Quote Originally Posted by SYSTEM:
that's the problem with this religion, it doesn't matter what you do, as long as you repent your sins and believe in god... tell me I'm wrong...
What you're saying seems quite contradictory...
But try and understand. No one is brought into heaven because they are "good". You don't buy your way into heaven like that. The criteria for being in heaven is perfection. If, and only if, you are perfect, then your place in heaven is guaranteed.
However, no one is perfect. No man/woman is a god -- no man/woman is like God. And that's the problem. A perfect place is only for perfect entities.
It doesn't matter if you did more outwardly good things than "the next guy" in the relatively short manner of time you're hearts been beating. What matters is perfection. That is the criteria. Anyone who is not perfect doesn't deserve the perfect rewards. Simple as that.
So what then, will we all die? Pretty much. Look around you. That's the fate of all mankind.
Should we have no hope then? Atheism suggests yes. Even religions of the Law (like buddhism, messiah-less judaism, and islam) all intrinsically suggest this notion. So how can an imperfect being enter a state that is only for perfect entities?
Grace. Someone on the inside has to let them in, so to speak. Thus is Christianity. It's about being forgiven for your imperfections, through love and faith. We aren't perfect, but by rejecting our imperfections for the sake of the one who will allow us in (which is faith in and of itself), the righteousness of one will vindicate us.
It's not about being perfect, but about faithfully wanting to be. There will be justice outside of grace, and everyone who is not perfect will be thrown away. This is what Christianity is about. Not about judging people (because by rejecting salvation they have been judged in themselves already). It's about being faithful.
Again, I've said a mouthful. So if you guys have any questions or concerns, disagreements or arguments, please feel free to ask.
Posted:
#845
Quote Originally Posted by archsage:
What you're saying seems quite contradictory...
But try and understand. No one is brought into heaven because they are "good". You don't buy your way into heaven like that. The criteria for being in heaven is perfection. If, and only if, you are perfect, then your place in heaven is guaranteed.
However, no one is perfect. No man/woman is a god -- no man/woman is like God. And that's the problem. A perfect place is only for perfect entities.
It doesn't matter if you did more outwardly good things than "the next guy" in the relatively short manner of time you're hearts been beating. What matters is perfection. That is the criteria. Anyone who is not perfect doesn't deserve the perfect rewards. Simple as that.
So what then, will we all die? Pretty much. Look around you. That's the fate of all mankind.
Should we have no hope then? Atheism suggests yes. Even religions of the Law (like buddhism, messiah-less judaism, and islam) all intrinsically suggest this notion. So how can an imperfect being enter a state that is only for perfect entities?
Grace. Someone on the inside has to let them in, so to speak. Thus is Christianity. It's about being forgiven for your imperfections, through love and faith. We aren't perfect, but by rejecting our imperfections for the sake of the one who will allow us in (which is faith in and of itself), the righteousness of one will vindicate us.
It's not about being perfect, but about faithfully wanting to be. There will be justice outside of grace, and everyone who is not perfect will be thrown away. This is what Christianity is about. Not about judging people (because by rejecting salvation they have been judged in themselves already). It's about being faithful.
Again, I've said a mouthful. So if you guys have any questions or concerns, disagreements or arguments, please feel free to ask.
What you're saying seems quite contradictory...
But try and understand. No one is brought into heaven because they are "good". You don't buy your way into heaven like that. The criteria for being in heaven is perfection. If, and only if, you are perfect, then your place in heaven is guaranteed.
However, no one is perfect. No man/woman is a god -- no man/woman is like God. And that's the problem. A perfect place is only for perfect entities.
It doesn't matter if you did more outwardly good things than "the next guy" in the relatively short manner of time you're hearts been beating. What matters is perfection. That is the criteria. Anyone who is not perfect doesn't deserve the perfect rewards. Simple as that.
So what then, will we all die? Pretty much. Look around you. That's the fate of all mankind.
Should we have no hope then? Atheism suggests yes. Even religions of the Law (like buddhism, messiah-less judaism, and islam) all intrinsically suggest this notion. So how can an imperfect being enter a state that is only for perfect entities?
Grace. Someone on the inside has to let them in, so to speak. Thus is Christianity. It's about being forgiven for your imperfections, through love and faith. We aren't perfect, but by rejecting our imperfections for the sake of the one who will allow us in (which is faith in and of itself), the righteousness of one will vindicate us.
It's not about being perfect, but about faithfully wanting to be. There will be justice outside of grace, and everyone who is not perfect will be thrown away. This is what Christianity is about. Not about judging people (because by rejecting salvation they have been judged in themselves already). It's about being faithful.
Again, I've said a mouthful. So if you guys have any questions or concerns, disagreements or arguments, please feel free to ask.
you did not answer my question...(post 836)
and why should anything you just said mean anything to me or anybody else? why should I believe this as truth? is this your interpretation, or are you saying this is what the bible is saying? where are you getting this from?
could Hitler be in Heaven?
Posted:
#846
Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:
See SJD. Once again you have outlined the problem PERFECTLY, so well done there.
See SJD. Once again you have outlined the problem PERFECTLY, so well done there.
You mean to tell me that ridiculing god is worse than murder? Come on. You can't honestly believe that.
You think that this all perfect god would act like a cranky 5 year old when someone makes fun of him? "Waa. You made fun of me. No heaven for you. I don't care if you did more good than Mother Theresa. You made fun of me. Waaaa."
Is that your depiction of god?
It seems to me that a supreme being would be able to look past the blasphemy and reward the righteous man for doing everything else right.
When you blasphemy God, it's the equivalent of rejecting Jesus Christ our Lord Savior which is an unpardonable sin.
I realize that you being an atheist will misunderstand the seriousness of blasphemy against God and it's not at all like He is a cranky 5 yr. old as you put it, who gets angry because you made fun of him,...no...no...no!! it's much much more than that. Let me explain as thorough as I can be.
Murder is not unpardonable. David confessed his sin and was forgiven. (Ps. 32:5).
Theft is not unpardonable. The penitent thief on the cross was pardoned. (Luke 23:43).
Blasphemy not directed at God is not unpardonable. Paul was a blasphemer and he was pardoned (1 Tim. 1:13).
Adultery is not unpardonable. The woman of Samaria was saved (John 4:18).
One of the amazing records of forgiveness is found in 1 Cor. 6:9-11.
However blasphemy directed at God is an unpardonable sin. Jesus Christ said, "Every sin and blasphemy can be forgiven---except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which will never be forgiven." (Matt. 12:31).
The unforgivable sin of speaking against the Holy Spirit has been interpreted in various ways, but the true meaning cannot contradict other Scripture. It is unequivocally clear that the one unforgivable sin is permanently rejecting Christ (John3:18; 3:36). Thus, speaking against the Holy Spirit is equivalent to rejecting Christ with such finality that no future repentance is possible.
'My spirit shall not always strive with man,' God said long ago (Genesis 6:3).
So in summary, yes blasphemy against God is worst than murder and all the other sins because you are beyond repentance and can not be saved for your unwavering rejection of Jesus Christ our Lord Savior.
The righteous man you spoke of is not perfect. He is still a sinner and in no way does anyone ever does everything right without even once sinning.
As we have said numerous times Jesus Christ our Lord Savior was the only perfect human being. And so there is some imperfection in that so called righteous man as you referred to him. The bottom line is that everyone must accept Jesus Christ as our Lord Savior to be saved no matter how righteous you believe you or someone else is...period!!
Posted:
#849
Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:
While I understand your explanation, it logically makes no sense. You are essentially explaining to me why I'm right by saying it's ok that blasphemy is worse than murder.
While I understand your explanation, it logically makes no sense. You are essentially explaining to me why I'm right by saying it's ok that blasphemy is worse than murder.
But how can you honestly say blasphemy is worse than murder?
Yes at first glance it makes no sense at all. Surely here on earth we will not put someone in prison for blaspheming God but of course we will put someone in prison for murdering another person. Here on earth murder is worst...no argument here.
But now let's look at God's perspective. In God's view, we are all sinners and not even one of us are perfect. "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16). Before Adam and Eve sinned (Genesis 3), they had a good relationship with God. Therefore, they were not ashamed to come into God's presence. But after they sinned, their relationship with God changed, and they were ashamed to come into God's physical presence. Sin had separated them and the entire human race-including you-from God. But God did not want sin to keep people from having a relationship with him. So he provided a way in which people could be cleansed of their sins and live with him in heaven forever. He gave his only Son, Jesus, as the perfect payment for everyone's sins.
So in the case of the murderer who confesses his sin and ask for forgiveness and accepts God's salvation by accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord Savior and turns away from his sins and sins no more will be forgiven and saved and spend eternity in paradise in God's Kingdom of Heaven after they die their physical death here on earth.
Meanwhile the person who their entire life has blasphemied God continuously, is essentially not accepting God's salvation by accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord Savior. This person believes he is righteous enough and doesn't need God in his life. However he has sinned before like everyone else, because no one is absolutely perfectly sinless, the only perfect one was Jesus Christ and so because he still has this sin debt to pay, and after his physical death here on earth he will be condemned. He had never accepted Jesus Christ and so Jesus Christ did not pay his sin debt for him. He was always a blasphemer of God which is equivalent to rejecting Christ.
So this explanation explains why blasphemy of God is essentially worst than murder. For the murderer can be forgiven while the blasphemer of God can never be forgiven...it's the unpardonable sin. But of course if the murderer doesn't accept Jesus Christ, he too will be condemned.
Posted:
#850
Like I said, I accept your explanation within the context of the bible, but practically, it makes no sense and I could never live by it. If someone blasphemes god, I'm not gonna think poorly of him. If someone murders someone else, I'm gonna wish death upon him. So while I acknowledge your explanation, simply put, I reject it as impractical.
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