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All Forums | General Discussion

If Christ died on the cross for all of humanity

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SYSTEM
KittyKatz286
Rostos
SirJohnDrake
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SYSTEM
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Joined: Dec, 2004
Posts: 1688
Posted: Oct. 26, 2011 - 1:12 AM ET #776

Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

Ok, very very very good point...

lets say these people as you said, never heard of God, bible etc etc etc....lets just say that they all of a sudden landed on that island at the age of 18.........

Do you think one person would murder another person on that island? let me clarify more, do you think they would know murdering another human is wrong?


are they lead by you and sdj? if they are then no, if they are not then yes  
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Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

Ok, very very very good point...

lets say these people as you said, never heard of God, bible etc etc etc....lets just say that they all of a sudden landed on that island at the age of 18.........

Do you think one person would murder another person on that island? let me clarify more, do you think they would know murdering another human is wrong?


are they lead by you and sdj? if they are then no, if they are not then yes  
 
KittyKatz286
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Posted: Oct. 26, 2011 - 1:15 AM ET #777

To clarify for SJD. In MY HYPO THAT I CREATED WHERE I MAKE UP THE FACTS, yes, these people are well aware that murdering another human is wrong.
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To clarify for SJD. In MY HYPO THAT I CREATED WHERE I MAKE UP THE FACTS, yes, these people are well aware that murdering another human is wrong.
 
SYSTEM
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Posted: Oct. 26, 2011 - 1:15 AM ET #778

Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

Why are you equivocating ALL religions? Why?

Based on your logic, one corrupt cop gets caught, then all are corrupt. Get rid of all cops.........


because all religions believe in make believe...
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Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

Why are you equivocating ALL religions? Why?

Based on your logic, one corrupt cop gets caught, then all are corrupt. Get rid of all cops.........


because all religions believe in make believe...
 
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Posted: Oct. 26, 2011 - 1:20 AM ET #779

Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:

To clarify for SJD. In MY HYPO THAT I CREATED WHERE I MAKE UP THE FACTS, yes, these people are well aware that murdering another human is wrong.

How do they know murdering is wrong?

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Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:

To clarify for SJD. In MY HYPO THAT I CREATED WHERE I MAKE UP THE FACTS, yes, these people are well aware that murdering another human is wrong.

How do they know murdering is wrong?

 
Rostos
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Posted: Oct. 26, 2011 - 1:21 AM ET #780

Quote Originally Posted by SYSTEM:


because all religions believe in make believe...

You are so all over the shop

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Quote Originally Posted by SYSTEM:


because all religions believe in make believe...

You are so all over the shop

 
SYSTEM
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Posted: Oct. 26, 2011 - 1:21 AM ET #781

Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:

To clarify for SJD. In MY HYPO THAT I CREATED WHERE I MAKE UP THE FACTS, yes, these people are well aware that murdering another human is wrong.

I think that he is trying to say that without the bible telling him, he or anyone else would not be able to figure out that murder is wrong
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Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:

To clarify for SJD. In MY HYPO THAT I CREATED WHERE I MAKE UP THE FACTS, yes, these people are well aware that murdering another human is wrong.

I think that he is trying to say that without the bible telling him, he or anyone else would not be able to figure out that murder is wrong
 
SirJohnDrake
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Posted: Oct. 26, 2011 - 1:21 AM ET #782

Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:

SJD - Let's take a hypothetical situation. There is a colony on an island. On this colony, there is no living person with any knowledge of god or the bible. These people have NO CLUE religion exists at all. These people all live good lives. They don't do anything heinous. No murders. No significant theft. Minimal lying. Etc.

When these people die, what do you think happens to them?

Even Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. They demonstrate that God's law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right. And this is the message I proclaim---that the day is coming when God, through Christ Jesus, will judge everyone's secret life."----Romans 2:12-16

God judges everyone and of course the one's who are living a righteous moral life will be saved and spend eternity in paradise in God's Kingdom of Heaven.

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Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:

SJD - Let's take a hypothetical situation. There is a colony on an island. On this colony, there is no living person with any knowledge of god or the bible. These people have NO CLUE religion exists at all. These people all live good lives. They don't do anything heinous. No murders. No significant theft. Minimal lying. Etc.

When these people die, what do you think happens to them?

Even Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. They demonstrate that God's law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right. And this is the message I proclaim---that the day is coming when God, through Christ Jesus, will judge everyone's secret life."----Romans 2:12-16

God judges everyone and of course the one's who are living a righteous moral life will be saved and spend eternity in paradise in God's Kingdom of Heaven.

 
KittyKatz286
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Posted: Oct. 26, 2011 - 1:24 AM ET #783

Well in my hypo, there are no insane people or crazy people who can't distinguish between right and wrong. Everyone is relatively normal. Normal people don't kill each other. It is not beneficial to society for you to just kill other people. You have no reason to. If everyone thought, "I'm just gonna kill this guy because I like his watch" and actually acted on it, then what's stopping everyone from just killing each other? Obviously nothing. Instead, these people have the ability to reason and they say to themselves "Ok. I'm not gonna kill anyone so as not to give anyone the impetus to kill me." Society cannot function without this logical conclusion that you can't go around killing people.
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Well in my hypo, there are no insane people or crazy people who can't distinguish between right and wrong. Everyone is relatively normal. Normal people don't kill each other. It is not beneficial to society for you to just kill other people. You have no reason to. If everyone thought, "I'm just gonna kill this guy because I like his watch" and actually acted on it, then what's stopping everyone from just killing each other? Obviously nothing. Instead, these people have the ability to reason and they say to themselves "Ok. I'm not gonna kill anyone so as not to give anyone the impetus to kill me." Society cannot function without this logical conclusion that you can't go around killing people.
 
elsewhere
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Posted: Oct. 26, 2011 - 1:24 AM ET #784

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KittyKatz286
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Posted: Oct. 26, 2011 - 1:25 AM ET #785

And. For once. I WOULD LIKE TO THANK SJD FOR ANSWERING MY QUESTION ADEQUATELY. While, obviously, I don't believe anything happens to these people, at least he provided a valid response.

Even if you are unaware of god, if you are a good person, you'll be ok.

Thank you.
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And. For once. I WOULD LIKE TO THANK SJD FOR ANSWERING MY QUESTION ADEQUATELY. While, obviously, I don't believe anything happens to these people, at least he provided a valid response.

Even if you are unaware of god, if you are a good person, you'll be ok.

Thank you.
 
SYSTEM
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Posted: Oct. 26, 2011 - 1:30 AM ET #786

Quote Originally Posted by SirJohnDrake:

Even Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. They demonstrate that God's law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right. And this is the message I proclaim---that the day is coming when God, through Christ Jesus, will judge everyone's secret life."----Romans 2:12-16

God judges everyone and of course the one's who are living a righteous moral life will be saved and spend eternity in paradise in God's Kingdom of Heaven.


so what is the purpose of a baby that dies, since this is all just a test to see who goes to heaven and no I'm not asking if the baby will go to heaven
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Quote Originally Posted by SirJohnDrake:

Even Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. They demonstrate that God's law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right. And this is the message I proclaim---that the day is coming when God, through Christ Jesus, will judge everyone's secret life."----Romans 2:12-16

God judges everyone and of course the one's who are living a righteous moral life will be saved and spend eternity in paradise in God's Kingdom of Heaven.


so what is the purpose of a baby that dies, since this is all just a test to see who goes to heaven and no I'm not asking if the baby will go to heaven
 
SYSTEM
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Posted: Oct. 26, 2011 - 1:31 AM ET #787

Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

You are so all over the shop


look in the mirror
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Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

You are so all over the shop


look in the mirror
 
Rostos
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Posted: Oct. 26, 2011 - 1:31 AM ET #788

Quote Originally Posted by SirJohnDrake:

Even Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. They demonstrate that God's law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right. And this is the message I proclaim---that the day is coming when God, through Christ Jesus, will judge everyone's secret life."----Romans 2:12-16

God judges everyone and of course the one's who are living a righteous moral life will be saved and spend eternity in paradise in God's Kingdom of Heaven.

Very nice

In KK's example, he has shown that these people know its wrong to murder, the verse you present demonstrates this.

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Quote Originally Posted by SirJohnDrake:

Even Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. They demonstrate that God's law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right. And this is the message I proclaim---that the day is coming when God, through Christ Jesus, will judge everyone's secret life."----Romans 2:12-16

God judges everyone and of course the one's who are living a righteous moral life will be saved and spend eternity in paradise in God's Kingdom of Heaven.

Very nice

In KK's example, he has shown that these people know its wrong to murder, the verse you present demonstrates this.

 
Rostos
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Posted: Oct. 26, 2011 - 1:33 AM ET #789

[Quote: Originally Posted by SYSTEM]

look in the mirror

[/Quote

Me?

You are the one that said people murder int he name of religion therefore get rid of religion, then when i say people do good things in the name of religion, in this case religion doesnt apply....

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[Quote: Originally Posted by SYSTEM]

look in the mirror

[/Quote

Me?

You are the one that said people murder int he name of religion therefore get rid of religion, then when i say people do good things in the name of religion, in this case religion doesnt apply....

 
KittyKatz286
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Posted: Oct. 26, 2011 - 1:35 AM ET #790

Fact: People murder in the name of religion

Fact: People do very good things in the name of religion

Fact: Atheists do very good things

Fact: Atheists perform evil acts

Not sure what the purpose of all this is?
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Fact: People murder in the name of religion

Fact: People do very good things in the name of religion

Fact: Atheists do very good things

Fact: Atheists perform evil acts

Not sure what the purpose of all this is?
 
SYSTEM
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Posted: Oct. 26, 2011 - 1:38 AM ET #791

Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

Quote Originally Posted by SYSTEM:


look in the mirror

[/Quote

Me?

You are the one that said people murder int he name of religion therefore get rid of religion, then when i say people do good things in the name of religion, in this case religion doesnt apply....


put it this way, if you got rid of religion, would people do evil things in the name of religion?

if you got rid of religion, would people still do good things?

pretty simple if you ask me, sorry if that's too difficult for you to understand
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Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

Quote Originally Posted by SYSTEM:


look in the mirror

[/Quote

Me?

You are the one that said people murder int he name of religion therefore get rid of religion, then when i say people do good things in the name of religion, in this case religion doesnt apply....


put it this way, if you got rid of religion, would people do evil things in the name of religion?

if you got rid of religion, would people still do good things?

pretty simple if you ask me, sorry if that's too difficult for you to understand
 
SYSTEM
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Posted: Oct. 26, 2011 - 1:40 AM ET #792

Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:

Fact: People murder in the name of religion

Fact: People do very good things in the name of religion

Fact: Atheists do very good things

Fact: Atheists perform evil acts

Not sure what the purpose of all this is?

Let me add to this...

Fact: without religion people would not do evil things in the name of religion

Fact: without religion, people would still do very good things
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Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:

Fact: People murder in the name of religion

Fact: People do very good things in the name of religion

Fact: Atheists do very good things

Fact: Atheists perform evil acts

Not sure what the purpose of all this is?

Let me add to this...

Fact: without religion people would not do evil things in the name of religion

Fact: without religion, people would still do very good things
 
Rostos
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Posted: Oct. 26, 2011 - 1:47 AM ET #793

Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:

Fact: People murder in the name of religion

Fact: People do very good things in the name of religion

Fact: Atheists do very good things

Fact: Atheists perform evil acts

Not sure what the purpose of all this is?

Exactly 100% right.

Your buddy System brough this up for some reason.

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Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:

Fact: People murder in the name of religion

Fact: People do very good things in the name of religion

Fact: Atheists do very good things

Fact: Atheists perform evil acts

Not sure what the purpose of all this is?

Exactly 100% right.

Your buddy System brough this up for some reason.

 
Rostos
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Posted: Oct. 26, 2011 - 1:49 AM ET #794

Quote Originally Posted by SYSTEM:


put it this way, if you got rid of religion, would people do evil things in the name of religion?
 
No, but people will still do evil things regardless without religion period......Stalin anyone.....

if you got rid of religion, would people still do good things? yes, but so would people in the name of religion.
 

pretty simple if you ask me, sorry if that's too difficult for you to understand
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Quote Originally Posted by SYSTEM:


put it this way, if you got rid of religion, would people do evil things in the name of religion?
 
No, but people will still do evil things regardless without religion period......Stalin anyone.....

if you got rid of religion, would people still do good things? yes, but so would people in the name of religion.
 

pretty simple if you ask me, sorry if that's too difficult for you to understand
 
Rostos
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Posted: Oct. 26, 2011 - 1:50 AM ET #795

Quote Originally Posted by SYSTEM:


Let me add to this...

Fact: without religion people would not do evil things in the name of religion

Fact: without religion, people would still do very good things

Oh my oh my oh my oh my

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Quote Originally Posted by SYSTEM:


Let me add to this...

Fact: without religion people would not do evil things in the name of religion

Fact: without religion, people would still do very good things

Oh my oh my oh my oh my

 
SYSTEM
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Posted: Oct. 26, 2011 - 2:05 AM ET #796

Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:


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Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:


 
rpw612
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Posted: Oct. 26, 2011 - 8:54 AM ET #797

The Gospel is a relationship with our Lord not a religion.

Man uses there free will to kill in the name of religion, when in actuallity it's by there own choice.

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The Gospel is a relationship with our Lord not a religion.

Man uses there free will to kill in the name of religion, when in actuallity it's by there own choice.

 
yesterday
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Posted: Oct. 26, 2011 - 12:58 PM ET #798

Quote Originally Posted by SirJohnDrake:

No yesterday!...this thread is not pointless. If you believe that then why did you come on this thread? To make a point? Or to say something that is pointless?

Jesus Christ our Lord Savior said to His disciples to spread the Good News. Well we believers today are also His disciples...get the point? Or is it pointless to you?

Just because we are having some debates it doesn't make this thread pointless. It comes with the territory so to speak.

Now please don't come here again to try to end this thread. If it bothers you, don't come in to read any of the posts on this thread. Simply stay away.



Well I guess you told me.  So SJD, if I question you or your methods or beliefs, because I am a believer, you tell me to go away.  But if a non believer challenges you, you love him, as Christ love the church.  Where Christ's love for me?

You try in vain to convince System and the other doubters here that Christ died for them. 

Let me give you this equation.  Knowledge + Experience = Wisedom.  You have knowledge, anyone can read the bible, memorize it, and repeat it as if it is their belief system.  "Even the demons believe, and shudder at the name of Jesus".  I memorized the bible, spent years educating myself.  What I lacked, and I suggest you do now, is a personal experience that convinces you beyond all your understanding that God exists, Jesus lived, died, and rose again, and because he did that, the Holy Spirit, when asked, comes to fill us so that we "know that we know".  Seeking God is not a cause and effect one time thing.  It is a search, a seeking, and then one day a relationship that continues to grow to many levels of personal and spiritual understanding and knowing. 

I am simply saying, arguing with someone or trying to convince someone, or talk them into a relationship with God is pointless, and impossible.  If that were possible, anyone could do it.  But it takes the Holy Spirit to enable someone to know God, not you, or me.  My point is, are you listening to the Holy Spirit, and His will, and where he wants you to witness and spread the Word?  Or are you just trying to win an argument and glorify yourself.  It is totally up to God and SJD and the rest of those challenging you, and Rostos, whether they come to know Him one day., or not. 

boberts427 said it simple, and great!  "my encounter can not be used as scientific evidence, but I will never need anything more".  Amen. 

In any case, I have God's love for you, and everyone on here.  I did not mean to offend.  I hope that one day you can know the peace that I have, as well as everyone else who has a true relationship with the Father.  Peace. 

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Quote Originally Posted by SirJohnDrake:

No yesterday!...this thread is not pointless. If you believe that then why did you come on this thread? To make a point? Or to say something that is pointless?

Jesus Christ our Lord Savior said to His disciples to spread the Good News. Well we believers today are also His disciples...get the point? Or is it pointless to you?

Just because we are having some debates it doesn't make this thread pointless. It comes with the territory so to speak.

Now please don't come here again to try to end this thread. If it bothers you, don't come in to read any of the posts on this thread. Simply stay away.



Well I guess you told me.  So SJD, if I question you or your methods or beliefs, because I am a believer, you tell me to go away.  But if a non believer challenges you, you love him, as Christ love the church.  Where Christ's love for me?

You try in vain to convince System and the other doubters here that Christ died for them. 

Let me give you this equation.  Knowledge + Experience = Wisedom.  You have knowledge, anyone can read the bible, memorize it, and repeat it as if it is their belief system.  "Even the demons believe, and shudder at the name of Jesus".  I memorized the bible, spent years educating myself.  What I lacked, and I suggest you do now, is a personal experience that convinces you beyond all your understanding that God exists, Jesus lived, died, and rose again, and because he did that, the Holy Spirit, when asked, comes to fill us so that we "know that we know".  Seeking God is not a cause and effect one time thing.  It is a search, a seeking, and then one day a relationship that continues to grow to many levels of personal and spiritual understanding and knowing. 

I am simply saying, arguing with someone or trying to convince someone, or talk them into a relationship with God is pointless, and impossible.  If that were possible, anyone could do it.  But it takes the Holy Spirit to enable someone to know God, not you, or me.  My point is, are you listening to the Holy Spirit, and His will, and where he wants you to witness and spread the Word?  Or are you just trying to win an argument and glorify yourself.  It is totally up to God and SJD and the rest of those challenging you, and Rostos, whether they come to know Him one day., or not. 

boberts427 said it simple, and great!  "my encounter can not be used as scientific evidence, but I will never need anything more".  Amen. 

In any case, I have God's love for you, and everyone on here.  I did not mean to offend.  I hope that one day you can know the peace that I have, as well as everyone else who has a true relationship with the Father.  Peace. 

 
SirJohnDrake
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Posted: Oct. 26, 2011 - 3:24 PM ET #799

Quote Originally Posted by yesterday:



Well I guess you told me.  So SJD, if I question you or your methods or beliefs, because I am a believer, you tell me to go away.  But if a non believer challenges you, you love him, as Christ love the church.  Where Christ's love for me?

You try in vain to convince System and the other doubters here that Christ died for them. 

No, don't get me wrong my brother! I just disagreed with your view that this thread is pointless and did not like to hear you say we should just stop it, I mentioned to you an alternative which was if you don't like the thread because you regard it as pointless then don't come to the thread if it upsets you.

I didn't mean to sound harsh or anything like that and furthermore I love everyone just like how our Lord Savior Jesus Christ loves everyone.

You and everyone else will always be welcomed to this thread. Let me just leave you with a beautiful passage in the bible which will adequately explain my position here.

As Jesus was walking along, He saw a man named Matthew sitting at his tax collector's booth. "Follow me and be my disciple," Jesus said to him. So Matthew got up and followed him. Later, Matthew invited Jesus and his disciples to his home as dinner guests, along with many tax collectors and other disreputable sinners. But when the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with such scum?" When Jesus heard this, He said, "Healthy people don't need a doctor---sick people do." Then He added. "Now go and learn the meaning of this Scripture: I want you to show mercy, not offer sacrifices. For I have come to call not those who think they are righteous, but those who know they are sinners."---Matthew 9:9-13

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Quote Originally Posted by yesterday:



Well I guess you told me.  So SJD, if I question you or your methods or beliefs, because I am a believer, you tell me to go away.  But if a non believer challenges you, you love him, as Christ love the church.  Where Christ's love for me?

You try in vain to convince System and the other doubters here that Christ died for them. 

No, don't get me wrong my brother! I just disagreed with your view that this thread is pointless and did not like to hear you say we should just stop it, I mentioned to you an alternative which was if you don't like the thread because you regard it as pointless then don't come to the thread if it upsets you.

I didn't mean to sound harsh or anything like that and furthermore I love everyone just like how our Lord Savior Jesus Christ loves everyone.

You and everyone else will always be welcomed to this thread. Let me just leave you with a beautiful passage in the bible which will adequately explain my position here.

As Jesus was walking along, He saw a man named Matthew sitting at his tax collector's booth. "Follow me and be my disciple," Jesus said to him. So Matthew got up and followed him. Later, Matthew invited Jesus and his disciples to his home as dinner guests, along with many tax collectors and other disreputable sinners. But when the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with such scum?" When Jesus heard this, He said, "Healthy people don't need a doctor---sick people do." Then He added. "Now go and learn the meaning of this Scripture: I want you to show mercy, not offer sacrifices. For I have come to call not those who think they are righteous, but those who know they are sinners."---Matthew 9:9-13

 
 
AustinHoopDream
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Posted: Oct. 26, 2011 - 3:48 PM ET #800

christ just called...he hates all of you and you are going to burn in hell...
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christ just called...he hates all of you and you are going to burn in hell...
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If you choose to make use of any information on this website including online sports betting services from any websites that may be featured on this website, we strongly recommend that you carefully check your local laws before doing so.It is your sole responsibility to understand your local laws and observe them strictly.Covers does not provide any advice or guidance as to the legality of online sports betting or other online gambling activities within your jurisdiction and you are responsible for complying with laws that are applicable to you in your relevant locality.Covers disclaims all liability associated with your use of this website and use of any information contained on it.As a condition of using this website, you agree to hold the owner of this website harmless from any claims arising from your use of any services on any third party website that may be featured by Covers.