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    All Forums | Systems & Strategies

    Over / Under Poisson strategy

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    calinreddog
    ferndog
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    calinreddog
    calinreddog
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    Posted: Jan. 26, 2009 - 9:27 AM ET #1

    Looking for some ways to make money on the over / under bets I thought I might use the Poisson function in the Excel worksheet to compute the real odds for games to go under or over.
    First of all I should say that Poisson distribution only applies to soccer and hockey games where scoring is a Poisson process.
    The Poisson distribution of probabilities can be used to estimate the probabilities of occurence for events that happen one at a time, are relatively rare, we know what's their frequency of occurence in a given time interval and their occurence is independendent one of each other.
    The goals in soccer and hockey games are such events. They are relatively rare, have manny opportunities to occur (there are a lot of shots on goal during a game but only 5-6 of them become goals) and they happen only one at a time. In football, baseball and basketball scoring is not a Poisson process, because the points may and do occur 2, 3 or more at a given time.
    Anyway, it has been established that scoring in hockey is a Poisson process. The goals are randomly distributed over the 3 periods with some exceptions that can be ignored.
    I thought that hockey being an offensive sport I should use only the average of goals scored by a team. In hockey goals are much more frequent than in soccer and in order to win you have to score one more than your opponent does.
    In soccer you can win points by defending the draw so there are a lot of team who developed very defensive strategies and I think that prediction must take into consideration the defense as well as the offense.
    But I mainly focus my strategy on hockey games, so that's how I thought predicting the hockey total:
    Example from today's Russian KHL games:
    Voskreshensk plays at home against Novosibirsk. Voskreshensk scores at home 1.72 goals / game and Novosibirsk scores away 1.95 goals / game. The average occurence of goals / game in this situation would be 3.67 goals / game (???, that's it, they're very low scoring). I compute the odds for under 5.5 using the worksheet in Excel and I find that chances are 83.4% for the total goals to be under 5.5. I go to Ladbrokes, my bookie, who, for my surprise, has the total listed at 5.5 and decimal odds of 1.6 (that means a value of 40%) and I place the bet (no Kelly criterion, just flat betting, one unit / play) and hope that I won't fall in the 166 / 1000 opportunities for  this game should go over 5.5 accordingly to Poisson distribution of probabilities.
    Using the scoring avg. of each team I compute the chances of being scored 0,1,2,3,4 and 5 goals and then, by adding these I obtain the chances for under 5.5. Then 1-chances of under 5.5 gives me the chances to go over 5.5.
    I set my rules to not take plays with chances under 60% and pay attention to their value. They must have just a little value in order to play them.
    I am curiously to see if I will reach a 60% hit rate, using these rules.
    The picks for today's hockey games would be (in european leagues):
    1. Voskreshensk - Novosibirsk under 5.5 - 83%
    2. Cherepovec - TVER THK under 5.5 - 67%
    3. Karpat - IFK Helsinki over 5.5 - 64%
     
    These are all plays that have  > 60% chances and a little value at my bookie's prices.
    I'll come back later with the results.
    I'm also curious if you tried it that way and what results did you get.
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    To remove first post, remove entire topic.
    Looking for some ways to make money on the over / under bets I thought I might use the Poisson function in the Excel worksheet to compute the real odds for games to go under or over.
    First of all I should say that Poisson distribution only applies to soccer and hockey games where scoring is a Poisson process.
    The Poisson distribution of probabilities can be used to estimate the probabilities of occurence for events that happen one at a time, are relatively rare, we know what's their frequency of occurence in a given time interval and their occurence is independendent one of each other.
    The goals in soccer and hockey games are such events. They are relatively rare, have manny opportunities to occur (there are a lot of shots on goal during a game but only 5-6 of them become goals) and they happen only one at a time. In football, baseball and basketball scoring is not a Poisson process, because the points may and do occur 2, 3 or more at a given time.
    Anyway, it has been established that scoring in hockey is a Poisson process. The goals are randomly distributed over the 3 periods with some exceptions that can be ignored.
    I thought that hockey being an offensive sport I should use only the average of goals scored by a team. In hockey goals are much more frequent than in soccer and in order to win you have to score one more than your opponent does.
    In soccer you can win points by defending the draw so there are a lot of team who developed very defensive strategies and I think that prediction must take into consideration the defense as well as the offense.
    But I mainly focus my strategy on hockey games, so that's how I thought predicting the hockey total:
    Example from today's Russian KHL games:
    Voskreshensk plays at home against Novosibirsk. Voskreshensk scores at home 1.72 goals / game and Novosibirsk scores away 1.95 goals / game. The average occurence of goals / game in this situation would be 3.67 goals / game (???, that's it, they're very low scoring). I compute the odds for under 5.5 using the worksheet in Excel and I find that chances are 83.4% for the total goals to be under 5.5. I go to Ladbrokes, my bookie, who, for my surprise, has the total listed at 5.5 and decimal odds of 1.6 (that means a value of 40%) and I place the bet (no Kelly criterion, just flat betting, one unit / play) and hope that I won't fall in the 166 / 1000 opportunities for  this game should go over 5.5 accordingly to Poisson distribution of probabilities.
    Using the scoring avg. of each team I compute the chances of being scored 0,1,2,3,4 and 5 goals and then, by adding these I obtain the chances for under 5.5. Then 1-chances of under 5.5 gives me the chances to go over 5.5.
    I set my rules to not take plays with chances under 60% and pay attention to their value. They must have just a little value in order to play them.
    I am curiously to see if I will reach a 60% hit rate, using these rules.
    The picks for today's hockey games would be (in european leagues):
    1. Voskreshensk - Novosibirsk under 5.5 - 83%
    2. Cherepovec - TVER THK under 5.5 - 67%
    3. Karpat - IFK Helsinki over 5.5 - 64%
     
    These are all plays that have  > 60% chances and a little value at my bookie's prices.
    I'll come back later with the results.
    I'm also curious if you tried it that way and what results did you get.
     
    calinreddog
    calinreddog
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    Posted: Jan. 26, 2009 - 10:24 AM ET #2

    And the 4th pick would be a soccer game:
    4. Burton - Barrow over 2.5 (England Blue Square Premier)
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    And the 4th pick would be a soccer game:
    4. Burton - Barrow over 2.5 (England Blue Square Premier)
     
    calinreddog
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    Posted: Jan. 26, 2009 - 4:24 PM ET #3

    Results:

    Voskreshensk - Novosibirsk 4-3

    Cherepovec - Tver THK 4-1

    Karpat - IFK 5-2

    Burton - Barrow 2-1 (in play 2nd half) .

    3 - 1 win-loss.

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    Results:

    Voskreshensk - Novosibirsk 4-3

    Cherepovec - Tver THK 4-1

    Karpat - IFK 5-2

    Burton - Barrow 2-1 (in play 2nd half) .

    3 - 1 win-loss.

     
    calinreddog
    calinreddog
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    Posted: Jan. 26, 2009 - 4:31 PM ET #4

    Picks for 27 Jan. come only from european hockey:
     
    Ilves Tampere - TPS Turku under 5.5
    Jokkerit - Tappara under 5.5
    Lahti Pelikans - SaiPa under 5.5
    Viktovice - Zlin under 5.5
    Zvolen - L. Mikulas over 5.5
    Kosice - Trencin over 5.5
    Slovan Bratislava - Skalica over 5.5
    Vienna Capitals - Klagenfurt over 5.5
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    Picks for 27 Jan. come only from european hockey:
     
    Ilves Tampere - TPS Turku under 5.5
    Jokkerit - Tappara under 5.5
    Lahti Pelikans - SaiPa under 5.5
    Viktovice - Zlin under 5.5
    Zvolen - L. Mikulas over 5.5
    Kosice - Trencin over 5.5
    Slovan Bratislava - Skalica over 5.5
    Vienna Capitals - Klagenfurt over 5.5
     
    calinreddog
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    Posted: Jan. 26, 2009 - 5:05 PM ET #5

    And 1st game day after All-Star:
     
    WAS @ BOS over 5.5
    ATL @ DAL over 5.5
    SJ @ COL over 5.5
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    And 1st game day after All-Star:
     
    WAS @ BOS over 5.5
    ATL @ DAL over 5.5
    SJ @ COL over 5.5
     
    ferndog
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    Posted: Jan. 26, 2009 - 11:10 PM ET #6

    Hey calinreddog for soccer i calculated home team Avg. goals per match scored at home & Avg. goals conceded per match at home & averaged that out. Did the same for the road team & then got an average of that to calculate. Is that how you would do it for soccer?
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    Hey calinreddog for soccer i calculated home team Avg. goals per match scored at home & Avg. goals conceded per match at home & averaged that out. Did the same for the road team & then got an average of that to calculate. Is that how you would do it for soccer?
     
    calinreddog
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    Posted: Jan. 27, 2009 - 4:43 AM ET #7

    Quote Originally Posted by ferndog:

    Hey calinreddog for soccer i calculated home team Avg. goals per match scored at home & Avg. goals conceded per match at home & averaged that out. Did the same for the road team & then got an average of that to calculate. Is that how you would do it for soccer?

    For Burton - Barrow game I decided to stay only at the offensive stats. So I calculated:

    1. Home Team scoring average / game when playing at home. E.g.: Burton scored 34 goals in 15 matches played at home this season, so the scoring avg. would be 34/15=2.26 goals / game.

    2. Away team scoring average / game when playing away. E.g.: Barrow scored 15 goals in 14 matches played away this season so the scoring avg. would be 15/14=1.07 goals / game.

    3. Add the 2 scoring avg. to s caclculate how manny goals should we expect for this game. E.g. Burton+Barrow = 2.26+1.07 = 3.33 goals. That means that when the two teams meet in this situation they should score an average of 3.33 goals / game.

    4. Apply the Poisson function to the total scoring avg. of 3.33 goals / game and we find that there should be: 3.57% games where they don't score, 11.91% games with only one goal scored, 19.84% games with 2 goals scored. The cut point is 2.5 so we add the chances of being scored 0,1 and 2 goals and that means 3.57+11.91+19.84=35.34%. These are the chances of being scored under 2.5 goals (0, 1 and 2). Than compute the chances for over wich means 100 - chances for under, 100 - 35.34 = 64.66%.

    So we calculated that chances for under 2.5 are 35.34% and chances for over 2.5 are 64.66% and decided to bet over 2.5.

    I decided to stay at the offensive stats for soccer too, because if a team plays defensively for the draw, they can get the draw at 2-2, 3-3 and so on and if they're aiming for 0-0 and 1-1 draws consequenty their scoring average will be very low.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ferndog:

    Hey calinreddog for soccer i calculated home team Avg. goals per match scored at home & Avg. goals conceded per match at home & averaged that out. Did the same for the road team & then got an average of that to calculate. Is that how you would do it for soccer?

    For Burton - Barrow game I decided to stay only at the offensive stats. So I calculated:

    1. Home Team scoring average / game when playing at home. E.g.: Burton scored 34 goals in 15 matches played at home this season, so the scoring avg. would be 34/15=2.26 goals / game.

    2. Away team scoring average / game when playing away. E.g.: Barrow scored 15 goals in 14 matches played away this season so the scoring avg. would be 15/14=1.07 goals / game.

    3. Add the 2 scoring avg. to s caclculate how manny goals should we expect for this game. E.g. Burton+Barrow = 2.26+1.07 = 3.33 goals. That means that when the two teams meet in this situation they should score an average of 3.33 goals / game.

    4. Apply the Poisson function to the total scoring avg. of 3.33 goals / game and we find that there should be: 3.57% games where they don't score, 11.91% games with only one goal scored, 19.84% games with 2 goals scored. The cut point is 2.5 so we add the chances of being scored 0,1 and 2 goals and that means 3.57+11.91+19.84=35.34%. These are the chances of being scored under 2.5 goals (0, 1 and 2). Than compute the chances for over wich means 100 - chances for under, 100 - 35.34 = 64.66%.

    So we calculated that chances for under 2.5 are 35.34% and chances for over 2.5 are 64.66% and decided to bet over 2.5.

    I decided to stay at the offensive stats for soccer too, because if a team plays defensively for the draw, they can get the draw at 2-2, 3-3 and so on and if they're aiming for 0-0 and 1-1 draws consequenty their scoring average will be very low.

     
    calinreddog
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    Posted: Jan. 27, 2009 - 1:05 PM ET #8

    Although I've been thinking if I should include the goals against average in my Poisson strategy. Looking at the general standings both in soccer and hockey I see there are major differences between teams concerning goals against avg or their defensive capabilities.
    But is the good defence a property of that team or is just a consequence of their good offensive?
    In general, teams with best offense are allowing less goals. If your offensive is better, pressing your opponent all the time prevents him from scoring against you. If you take it that way, the defense is not a quality of a team but a consequence of the fact it scores a lot and prevents its opponents to score against.
    Any thoughts?
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    Although I've been thinking if I should include the goals against average in my Poisson strategy. Looking at the general standings both in soccer and hockey I see there are major differences between teams concerning goals against avg or their defensive capabilities.
    But is the good defence a property of that team or is just a consequence of their good offensive?
    In general, teams with best offense are allowing less goals. If your offensive is better, pressing your opponent all the time prevents him from scoring against you. If you take it that way, the defense is not a quality of a team but a consequence of the fact it scores a lot and prevents its opponents to score against.
    Any thoughts?
     
    calinreddog
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    Posted: Jan. 27, 2009 - 2:00 PM ET #9

    And while we're waitting for the NHL games to start let's hit some overs in England soccer games:
     

    Watford – Burnley over 2.5

    Reading – Wolverhampton over 2.5

    Scunthorpe – Oldham over 2.5

    Tranmere – Stockport over 2.5

    Leeds – Southend

    Rochdale – Notts County over 2.5

    Wrexham – Northwich over 2.5

    Kidderminster – Histon over 2.5

    Stevenage – Kettering over 2.5

     

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    And while we're waitting for the NHL games to start let's hit some overs in England soccer games:
     

    Watford – Burnley over 2.5

    Reading – Wolverhampton over 2.5

    Scunthorpe – Oldham over 2.5

    Tranmere – Stockport over 2.5

    Leeds – Southend

    Rochdale – Notts County over 2.5

    Wrexham – Northwich over 2.5

    Kidderminster – Histon over 2.5

    Stevenage – Kettering over 2.5

     

     
    calinreddog
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    Posted: Jan. 27, 2009 - 2:32 PM ET #10

    European hockey results:
     
    Ilves Tampere - TPS Turku 1-2
    Jokkerit - Tappara 1-4
    Lahti Pelikans - SaiPa 10-2
    Viktovice - Zlin 4-6
    Zvolen - L. Mikulas 3-4
    Kosice - Trencin 5-4
    Slovan Bratislava - Skalica 3-4
    Vienna Capitals - Klagenfurt (3-3, 2nd period, in play)
    6 wins - 2 losses.
     
    Total by now: 9 - 3 win - loss
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    European hockey results:
     
    Ilves Tampere - TPS Turku 1-2
    Jokkerit - Tappara 1-4
    Lahti Pelikans - SaiPa 10-2
    Viktovice - Zlin 4-6
    Zvolen - L. Mikulas 3-4
    Kosice - Trencin 5-4
    Slovan Bratislava - Skalica 3-4
    Vienna Capitals - Klagenfurt (3-3, 2nd period, in play)
    6 wins - 2 losses.
     
    Total by now: 9 - 3 win - loss
     
    ferndog
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    Posted: Jan. 27, 2009 - 3:49 PM ET #11

    It takes longer to calculate if you include defense. You get more plays for sure. But i don't know if that would be better. I noticed you only took ovrs. I took und sunderland-fulham...i only had time to check the premier league for today
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    It takes longer to calculate if you include defense. You get more plays for sure. But i don't know if that would be better. I noticed you only took ovrs. I took und sunderland-fulham...i only had time to check the premier league for today
     
    calinreddog
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    Posted: Jan. 27, 2009 - 4:51 PM ET #12

    Quote Originally Posted by ferndog:

    It takes longer to calculate if you include defense. You get more plays for sure. But i don't know if that would be better. I noticed you only took ovrs. I took und sunderland-fulham...i only had time to check the premier league for today

    Good choice (sunderland - fulham)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ferndog:

    It takes longer to calculate if you include defense. You get more plays for sure. But i don't know if that would be better. I noticed you only took ovrs. I took und sunderland-fulham...i only had time to check the premier league for today

    Good choice (sunderland - fulham)

     
    expertcapper
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    Posted: Jan. 27, 2009 - 5:07 PM ET #13

    calinredog can you please send me that excell sheet i am very interested
    my email is in my space                 thanks Capper
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    calinredog can you please send me that excell sheet i am very interested
    my email is in my space                 thanks Capper
     
    calinreddog
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    Posted: Jan. 27, 2009 - 5:19 PM ET #14

    Quote Originally Posted by expertcapper:

    calinredog can you please send me that excell sheet i am very interested
    my email is in my space                 thanks Capper

    I am working right now to improve it a little bit.

    The 9 soccer plays came out 4 wins and 5 losses and that's not acceptable. I found a way to include the defence (goals against avg.) in the algorythm and that eliminates 4 of the 9 soccer plays as not good to play over and gives 4-1 record for english soccer plays today.

    As soon as I'll be finished I'll mail it to you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by expertcapper:

    calinredog can you please send me that excell sheet i am very interested
    my email is in my space                 thanks Capper

    I am working right now to improve it a little bit.

    The 9 soccer plays came out 4 wins and 5 losses and that's not acceptable. I found a way to include the defence (goals against avg.) in the algorythm and that eliminates 4 of the 9 soccer plays as not good to play over and gives 4-1 record for english soccer plays today.

    As soon as I'll be finished I'll mail it to you.

     
    expertcapper
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    Posted: Jan. 27, 2009 - 6:29 PM ET #15

    thanks calinredog
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    thanks calinredog
     
    calinreddog
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    Posted: Jan. 27, 2009 - 6:44 PM ET #16

    NHL over / under picks:

    WAS @ BOS over 5.5

    DET @ CBJ over 5.5

     

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    NHL over / under picks:

    WAS @ BOS over 5.5

    DET @ CBJ over 5.5

     

     
    calinreddog
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    Posted: Jan. 27, 2009 - 7:09 PM ET #17

    The results for english soccer bets was 4 wins  - 5 losses.
    But I/ve found a way to improve the prediction, taking into account the defense as well as the offense and that way the english soccer bets would be 4 wins - 1 loss (4 would be no bet situation).
    Any way the records are by now 13-9 if we count the 4 soccer games I shouldn't play or 13-4 if we eliminate these.
    Picks for NHL are (besides those 2 above):
    SJ @ COL over 5.5
    ATL @ DAL over 5.5 (if you find the total at 5.5 / at 6.0 line is no good bet).
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    The results for english soccer bets was 4 wins  - 5 losses.
    But I/ve found a way to improve the prediction, taking into account the defense as well as the offense and that way the english soccer bets would be 4 wins - 1 loss (4 would be no bet situation).
    Any way the records are by now 13-9 if we count the 4 soccer games I shouldn't play or 13-4 if we eliminate these.
    Picks for NHL are (besides those 2 above):
    SJ @ COL over 5.5
    ATL @ DAL over 5.5 (if you find the total at 5.5 / at 6.0 line is no good bet).
     
    calinreddog
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    Posted: Jan. 28, 2009 - 4:10 AM ET #18

    Rough night: 0 win - 3 losses.
    Overall: 13 - 6.
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    Rough night: 0 win - 3 losses.
    Overall: 13 - 6.
     
    calinreddog
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    Posted: Jan. 28, 2009 - 5:59 AM ET #19

    I hope to improve the record with 3 european hockey totals:

    St. Petersburg – TVER THK under 5.5

    Bjorkloven – Boras under 5.5

    Mora – Oskarshamn over 5.5

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    I hope to improve the record with 3 european hockey totals:

    St. Petersburg – TVER THK under 5.5

    Bjorkloven – Boras under 5.5

    Mora – Oskarshamn over 5.5

     
    calinreddog
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    Posted: Jan. 28, 2009 - 8:42 AM ET #20

    And 3 more soccer totals (England Premier and Italy Serie A)
     
    Manchester City  - Newcastle over 2.5
    Westham Utd. - Hull City over 2.5
    Cagliari  - Siena under 2.5
     
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    And 3 more soccer totals (England Premier and Italy Serie A)
     
    Manchester City  - Newcastle over 2.5
    Westham Utd. - Hull City over 2.5
    Cagliari  - Siena under 2.5
     
     
    calinreddog
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    Posted: Jan. 28, 2009 - 4:58 PM ET #21

    And the results for european hockey and soccer:
     

    St. Petersburg – TVER THK under 5.5 2-3

    Bjorkloven – Boras under 5.5 4-1

    Mora – Oskarshamn over 5.5 4-1

    Manchester City  - Newcastle over 2.5 2-1
    Westham Utd. - Hull City over 2.5 2-0
    Cagliari  - Siena under 2.5 1-0
     
    Today: 4 - 2
    Overall: 17 - 8 (68%).
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    And the results for european hockey and soccer:
     

    St. Petersburg – TVER THK under 5.5 2-3

    Bjorkloven – Boras under 5.5 4-1

    Mora – Oskarshamn over 5.5 4-1

    Manchester City  - Newcastle over 2.5 2-1
    Westham Utd. - Hull City over 2.5 2-0
    Cagliari  - Siena under 2.5 1-0
     
    Today: 4 - 2
    Overall: 17 - 8 (68%).
     
    calinreddog
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    Posted: Jan. 28, 2009 - 4:59 PM ET #22

    Tonight play for NHL:
     
    Buffalo @ Calgary over 5.5.
     
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    Tonight play for NHL:
     
    Buffalo @ Calgary over 5.5.
     
     
    calinreddog
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    Posted: Jan. 29, 2009 - 4:35 AM ET #23

    Buffalo @ Calgary over 5.5 .
     
    Lastnight (NHL): 1- 0
    Overall: 18 - 8 (69%).
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    Buffalo @ Calgary over 5.5 .
     
    Lastnight (NHL): 1- 0
    Overall: 18 - 8 (69%).
     
    calinreddog
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    Posted: Jan. 29, 2009 - 8:25 AM ET #24

    And the picks for european hockey today:
     

    IFK Helsinki – Ilves Tampere under 5.5

    Karlovy Vary – Znojmo under 5.5

    Lorenskrog – Stjernen over 5.5

    Vienna Capitals – Innsbruck over 5.5

    Linz – Red Bull Salzburg over 5.5

    Sodertalje – Frolunda under 5.5

    Farjestad – Lulea under 5.5

     

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    And the picks for european hockey today:
     

    IFK Helsinki – Ilves Tampere under 5.5

    Karlovy Vary – Znojmo under 5.5

    Lorenskrog – Stjernen over 5.5

    Vienna Capitals – Innsbruck over 5.5

    Linz – Red Bull Salzburg over 5.5

    Sodertalje – Frolunda under 5.5

    Farjestad – Lulea under 5.5

     

     
     
    ferndog
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    Posted: Jan. 29, 2009 - 10:37 AM ET #25

    calinreddog for the heck of it i tried ovr/und with the poisson calculator for college bb & nba & it has worked out pretty good. I just did it for a couple of days & maybe i just got lucky. Gonna keep on doing it & see what happens. I just use offense & no defense. Are you still using only offense?
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    calinreddog for the heck of it i tried ovr/und with the poisson calculator for college bb & nba & it has worked out pretty good. I just did it for a couple of days & maybe i just got lucky. Gonna keep on doing it & see what happens. I just use offense & no defense. Are you still using only offense?
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