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    All Forums | Politics

    Yes, I am Attacking President Obama

    «First Previous 123456 Next Last»
    MoneySRH
    Raiders22
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    MoneySRH
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    Posted: Aug. 13, 2014 - 11:34 AM ET #101

    Quote Originally Posted by Killer_B:

    Where's the sources for your conspiracy theory that approx 20 people conspired to invade Iraq, convincing the U.S. Congress & world allies to join in solidarity? And to date no one has written a book (which everyone seems to have  a tell all book) regarding your claims? 

    What do you do for a living Money? Are you a CEO, doctor or lawyer?


    Read: (Special Plans: The Blogs on Douglas Feith & the Faulty Intelligence That Led to War) and (the Senate Report on Pre-war Intelligence on Iraq) (This can be found for free in its entirety online). My sources all worked for the CIA, former CIA officers Larry Johnson, Valerie Wilson, Joe Wilson, Ray McGovern, David MacMichael, Vince Cannistraro, and Patrick Eddington. What I do for a living is irrelevant to the debate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer_B:

    Where's the sources for your conspiracy theory that approx 20 people conspired to invade Iraq, convincing the U.S. Congress & world allies to join in solidarity? And to date no one has written a book (which everyone seems to have  a tell all book) regarding your claims? 

    What do you do for a living Money? Are you a CEO, doctor or lawyer?


    Read: (Special Plans: The Blogs on Douglas Feith & the Faulty Intelligence That Led to War) and (the Senate Report on Pre-war Intelligence on Iraq) (This can be found for free in its entirety online). My sources all worked for the CIA, former CIA officers Larry Johnson, Valerie Wilson, Joe Wilson, Ray McGovern, David MacMichael, Vince Cannistraro, and Patrick Eddington. What I do for a living is irrelevant to the debate.

     
    MoneySRH
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    Posted: Aug. 13, 2014 - 12:21 PM ET #102

    Quote Originally Posted by Raiders22:

    Just saying something over and over and louder in different ways doesn't make it correct. If facts are truly presented then the intellectually honest person without an agenda will change their mind. You just don't completely make your case is all. A conspiracy or coverup is something that is factually exposed by folks admitting they did it or were in on it. Or proving with the facts that there is no viable alternative. There are many papers, books, and movies written about a lot of these conspiracy things; not many people take them seriously even though they sound very convincing.  The intellectually honest and non-weakminded person will admit when they are wrong or what they say cannot be proven. You don't want to admit you may be wrong. I have no problem admitting I am wrong when presented with facts. Until then I will wait until the facts expose this conspiracy, then I will join in calling for war crimes, etc. Until then I will continue to believe that honest, sincere world leaders, provided with what they felt was true intel did the best they could to do the right thing for USA and the world in a very trying time. 
    Just saying something over and over and louder in different ways doesn't make it correct. If facts are truly presented then the intellectually honest person without an agenda will change their mind.

    Just ignorantly denying something over and over doesn’t make it false. No, you can’t change a naive mind. Psychological studies have proven this...

    You just don't completely make your case is all. A conspiracy or coverup is something that is factually exposed by folks admitting they did it or were in on it. Or proving with the facts that there is no viable alternative.

    Not only did I make my case... it was an out of the park grand slam. Hard to admit a conspiracy or cover-up when the people involved don’t see they did anything wrong...

    There are many papers, books, and movies written about a lot of these conspiracy things; not many people take them seriously even though they sound very convincing.  The intellectually honest and non-weakminded person will admit when they are wrong or what they say cannot be proven. You don't want to admit you may be wrong. I have no problem admitting I am wrong when presented with facts.


    No, you don’t want to admit you are wrong because you have a severe case of denial...

    You want facts…

    A Cabinet Office briefing paper, July 21, 2002 said that since regime change was illegal it was “necessary to create the conditions” which would make it legal. This is 100 percent authentic.

    The Office of Special Plans planned the war. This is a fact.

    Bush-Blair 2003 Iraq memo exposes the truth. It shows Bush floating the idea of painting a U-2 spy-plane in UN colors to provoke Saddam to shoot it down and shows Bush and Blair making a secret deal to carry out the invasion regardless of whether or not WMDs were discovered by UN weapons inspectors. This is 100 percent authentic.

    Until then I will wait until the facts expose this conspiracy, then I will join in calling for war crimes, etc. Until then I will continue to believe that honest, sincere world leaders, provided with what they felt was true intel did the best they could to do the right thing for USA and the world in a very trying time.


    Cowboy Bush isn’t the first president to lie. History clearly shows that McKinley, Wilson, FDR, Truman, Kennedy, Johnson, G.H.W. Bush, Clinton, and G.W. Bush all lied to the American people to go to war. This is a historical fact.

    You fact deniers that lack reading comprehension are hilarious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raiders22:

    Just saying something over and over and louder in different ways doesn't make it correct. If facts are truly presented then the intellectually honest person without an agenda will change their mind. You just don't completely make your case is all. A conspiracy or coverup is something that is factually exposed by folks admitting they did it or were in on it. Or proving with the facts that there is no viable alternative. There are many papers, books, and movies written about a lot of these conspiracy things; not many people take them seriously even though they sound very convincing.  The intellectually honest and non-weakminded person will admit when they are wrong or what they say cannot be proven. You don't want to admit you may be wrong. I have no problem admitting I am wrong when presented with facts. Until then I will wait until the facts expose this conspiracy, then I will join in calling for war crimes, etc. Until then I will continue to believe that honest, sincere world leaders, provided with what they felt was true intel did the best they could to do the right thing for USA and the world in a very trying time. 
    Just saying something over and over and louder in different ways doesn't make it correct. If facts are truly presented then the intellectually honest person without an agenda will change their mind.

    Just ignorantly denying something over and over doesn’t make it false. No, you can’t change a naive mind. Psychological studies have proven this...

    You just don't completely make your case is all. A conspiracy or coverup is something that is factually exposed by folks admitting they did it or were in on it. Or proving with the facts that there is no viable alternative.

    Not only did I make my case... it was an out of the park grand slam. Hard to admit a conspiracy or cover-up when the people involved don’t see they did anything wrong...

    There are many papers, books, and movies written about a lot of these conspiracy things; not many people take them seriously even though they sound very convincing.  The intellectually honest and non-weakminded person will admit when they are wrong or what they say cannot be proven. You don't want to admit you may be wrong. I have no problem admitting I am wrong when presented with facts.


    No, you don’t want to admit you are wrong because you have a severe case of denial...

    You want facts…

    A Cabinet Office briefing paper, July 21, 2002 said that since regime change was illegal it was “necessary to create the conditions” which would make it legal. This is 100 percent authentic.

    The Office of Special Plans planned the war. This is a fact.

    Bush-Blair 2003 Iraq memo exposes the truth. It shows Bush floating the idea of painting a U-2 spy-plane in UN colors to provoke Saddam to shoot it down and shows Bush and Blair making a secret deal to carry out the invasion regardless of whether or not WMDs were discovered by UN weapons inspectors. This is 100 percent authentic.

    Until then I will wait until the facts expose this conspiracy, then I will join in calling for war crimes, etc. Until then I will continue to believe that honest, sincere world leaders, provided with what they felt was true intel did the best they could to do the right thing for USA and the world in a very trying time.


    Cowboy Bush isn’t the first president to lie. History clearly shows that McKinley, Wilson, FDR, Truman, Kennedy, Johnson, G.H.W. Bush, Clinton, and G.W. Bush all lied to the American people to go to war. This is a historical fact.

    You fact deniers that lack reading comprehension are hilarious.

     
    Raiders22
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    Posted: Aug. 13, 2014 - 2:47 PM ET #103

    Quote Originally Posted by MoneySRH:


    Just ignorantly denying something over and over doesn’t make it false. No, you can’t change a naive mind. Psychological studies have proven this...

    I agree ---and you naive people are also easily swayed 

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    Quote Originally Posted by MoneySRH:


    Just ignorantly denying something over and over doesn’t make it false. No, you can’t change a naive mind. Psychological studies have proven this...

    I agree ---and you naive people are also easily swayed 

     
    Raiders22
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    Posted: Aug. 13, 2014 - 2:48 PM ET #104

    Quote Originally Posted by MoneySRH:

    Not only did I make my case... it was an out of the park grand slam. Hard to admit a conspiracy or cover-up when the people involved don’t see they did anything wrong...

    Um..actually...no...you didn't...that is the whole point 

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    Quote Originally Posted by MoneySRH:

    Not only did I make my case... it was an out of the park grand slam. Hard to admit a conspiracy or cover-up when the people involved don’t see they did anything wrong...

    Um..actually...no...you didn't...that is the whole point 

     
    Raiders22
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    Posted: Aug. 13, 2014 - 2:51 PM ET #105

    Quote Originally Posted by MoneySRH:

    The Office of Special Plans planned the war. This is a fact.

    And...isn't this by definition their job--they didn't decide to 'plan' the conspiracy or the circumstances to go to war.  Not their decision---their job is to plan. 

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    Quote Originally Posted by MoneySRH:

    The Office of Special Plans planned the war. This is a fact.

    And...isn't this by definition their job--they didn't decide to 'plan' the conspiracy or the circumstances to go to war.  Not their decision---their job is to plan. 

     
    Raiders22
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    Posted: Aug. 13, 2014 - 2:54 PM ET #106

    Quote Originally Posted by MoneySRH:

    A Cabinet Office briefing paper, July 21, 2002 said that since regime change was illegal it was “necessary to create the conditions” which would make it legal. This is 100 percent authentic.

    And...? What does this have to with the original reason for going?  This is part of that dreaded 'exit strategy' plannning that all you Leftists complain about. Not the drummed up WMDs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MoneySRH:

    A Cabinet Office briefing paper, July 21, 2002 said that since regime change was illegal it was “necessary to create the conditions” which would make it legal. This is 100 percent authentic.

    And...? What does this have to with the original reason for going?  This is part of that dreaded 'exit strategy' plannning that all you Leftists complain about. Not the drummed up WMDs.

     
    Raiders22
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    Posted: Aug. 13, 2014 - 3:33 PM ET #107

    Quote Originally Posted by MoneySRH:


    Cowboy Bush isn’t the first president to lie. History clearly shows that McKinley, Wilson, FDR, Truman, Kennedy, Johnson, G.H.W. Bush, Clinton, and G.W. Bush all lied to the American people to go to war. This is a historical fact.

    You fact deniers that lack reading comprehension are hilarious.

    Yes---they will sometimes play fast and loose with truth to get their way. Maybe Lincoln and McKinley are best examples.  Most say McKinley clearly knew Spain didn't blow up the Maine. Lincoln knew what e was doing was wrong, but justified it for the better good, etc  But the people and congress also know and are okay with this.  Certainly 9/11 played a part because people were afraid.  But I do not know that they really lied just because they wanted to go to war exactly o be going to war.  Maybe Wilson, but not Clinto or Bush I feel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MoneySRH:


    Cowboy Bush isn’t the first president to lie. History clearly shows that McKinley, Wilson, FDR, Truman, Kennedy, Johnson, G.H.W. Bush, Clinton, and G.W. Bush all lied to the American people to go to war. This is a historical fact.

    You fact deniers that lack reading comprehension are hilarious.

    Yes---they will sometimes play fast and loose with truth to get their way. Maybe Lincoln and McKinley are best examples.  Most say McKinley clearly knew Spain didn't blow up the Maine. Lincoln knew what e was doing was wrong, but justified it for the better good, etc  But the people and congress also know and are okay with this.  Certainly 9/11 played a part because people were afraid.  But I do not know that they really lied just because they wanted to go to war exactly o be going to war.  Maybe Wilson, but not Clinto or Bush I feel.

     
    Raiders22
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    Posted: Aug. 13, 2014 - 3:34 PM ET #108

    Examples (some even before Bush) of the fact deniers that lack reading comprehension:

    "One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
    --President Bill Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

    "If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
    --President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

    "Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."
    --Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998

    "He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
    --Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

    "Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
    -- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999

    "We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
    -- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

    "Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
    -- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

    "I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force -- if necessary -- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
    -- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002


    "Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real..."
    -- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003

    "If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow by the knowledge that they can act with impunity, even in the face of a clear message from the United Nations Security Council and clear evidence of a weapons of mass destruction program."
    President Clinton
    Address to Joint Chiefs of Staff and Pentagon staff
    February 17, 1998

    "One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
    --President Bill Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998 "If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program." --President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

    "We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country." -- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002 "Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
    -- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

    "I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force -- if necessary -- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." -- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002


    "Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real..." -- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003

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    Examples (some even before Bush) of the fact deniers that lack reading comprehension:

    "One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
    --President Bill Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

    "If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
    --President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

    "Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."
    --Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998

    "He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
    --Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

    "Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
    -- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999

    "We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
    -- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

    "Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
    -- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

    "I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force -- if necessary -- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
    -- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002


    "Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real..."
    -- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003

    "If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow by the knowledge that they can act with impunity, even in the face of a clear message from the United Nations Security Council and clear evidence of a weapons of mass destruction program."
    President Clinton
    Address to Joint Chiefs of Staff and Pentagon staff
    February 17, 1998

    "One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
    --President Bill Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998 "If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program." --President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

    "We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country." -- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002 "Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
    -- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

    "I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force -- if necessary -- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." -- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002


    "Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real..." -- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003

     
    Raiders22
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    Posted: Aug. 13, 2014 - 3:36 PM ET #109

    Judge Silberman's take on it:

    “Bush lied, people died.” In certain quarters, the charge has by now achieved the status of a settled question. Judge Laurence Silberman intends to unsettle it.

    “The notion that Bush lied about intelligence to get [us] into war,” Silberman says, “is an absurd and outrageous libel.”

    Dignified and eloquent, Silberman, a senior judge for the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia, represents one of the leading figures on the federal bench. (In 2007, Silberman wrote the decision striking down the District of Columbia’s ban on handguns. Upholding him the following year, the Supreme Court produced the most important decision on the Second Amendment in some seven decades.) From 2004 to 2005 Silberman served with former Democratic Sen. Chuck Robb as co-chairman of the Commission on the Intelligence Capabilities of the U.S. Regarding Weapons of Mass Destruction.

    In its official report, the Silberman-Robb Commission evaluated only American intelligence on Iraq, not what the administration did with it. But Judge Silberman saw more than enough to draw his own conclusions. During a recent interview with me, he spoke freely about his views for the first time. “As a federal judge I am very careful to stay out of politics,” Silberman says. “But [now that several years have passed] I am inclined to think that … [for] historical purposes I can give an opinion.”

    Did the Bush administration distort or misconstrue intelligence to show that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction? No. The intelligence agencies did that by themselves.

    The intelligence agencies, Silberman says, “clearly indicated that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. They made that clear to both President Clinton and President Bush. They made that clear in the national intelligence estimate of 2002.” How did the intelligence agencies get such a basic, vital question so thoroughly wrong? “A lot of fundamental and almost amateurish mistakes.”

    Consider, for instance, the intelligence that Saddam had resumed his program to produce biological weapons.

    “That claim came to American intelligence from several different entry points,” Silberman says. “[But] it turned out that it all came from a single source, one person who had made the claim to German intelligence. Nobody in American intelligence realized that what looked like three or four bits of corroborating evidence was really all the same phony thing.”

    The intelligence community, in other words, proved incapable of a task that takes place dozens of times a day in every newsroom in America: double sourcing.

    Bush lied? Hardly. The intelligence agencies screwed up.

    Silberman, however, refuses simply to shift blame for the war from the administration to the intelligence agencies. Instead he rejects the idea that the invasion of Iraq represented a war of choice in the first place.

    “Even people at the highest level of the Iraqi regime believed Saddam had weapons of mass destruction,” Silberman explains. “Saddam was running a bluff. He was bluffing his own people, and he was bluffing Iran. It would have been impossible for any intelligence agency in the world … to have determined that Saddam had destroyed his weapons of mass destruction.”

    Even if the intelligence agencies had performed flawlessly, they would therefore have found themselves advising the president of grave dangers. “A first-class [intelligence] opinion would have said, ‘We [the intelligence agencies] know Saddam once had weapons of mass destruction, we know that he proved capable of using them, and we have no evidence that he has destroyed them. Although we cannot prove that Saddam still has weapons of mass destruction, we think it highly likely that he has.’”

    If the intelligence agencies had submitted just such a report–an accurate, considered assessment–what would have happened?

    “The country,” says Silberman, “would probably have gone to war anyway.”

    “When Germany seized the Rhineland in 1936, France and Britain failed to respond. I’m sure leaders in France and Britain thought, ‘Well, if we went to war now, we would be waging a war of choice.’ But was it really a war of choice? Of course not. By 1939 there was no choice.

    “When the Bush administration went into Iraq, the timing may have been a matter of choice,” Silberman says. “But historians will probably conclude that the war itself was inevitable.”

    The Bush administration no doubt made its mistakes, and the intelligence agencies undeniably committed one bungle after another. But after years of attempting to blame each other for the conflict, Americans should recognize that the war in Iraq was never ours to choose. A barbarian forced it upon us.

     

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    Judge Silberman's take on it:

    “Bush lied, people died.” In certain quarters, the charge has by now achieved the status of a settled question. Judge Laurence Silberman intends to unsettle it.

    “The notion that Bush lied about intelligence to get [us] into war,” Silberman says, “is an absurd and outrageous libel.”

    Dignified and eloquent, Silberman, a senior judge for the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia, represents one of the leading figures on the federal bench. (In 2007, Silberman wrote the decision striking down the District of Columbia’s ban on handguns. Upholding him the following year, the Supreme Court produced the most important decision on the Second Amendment in some seven decades.) From 2004 to 2005 Silberman served with former Democratic Sen. Chuck Robb as co-chairman of the Commission on the Intelligence Capabilities of the U.S. Regarding Weapons of Mass Destruction.

    In its official report, the Silberman-Robb Commission evaluated only American intelligence on Iraq, not what the administration did with it. But Judge Silberman saw more than enough to draw his own conclusions. During a recent interview with me, he spoke freely about his views for the first time. “As a federal judge I am very careful to stay out of politics,” Silberman says. “But [now that several years have passed] I am inclined to think that … [for] historical purposes I can give an opinion.”

    Did the Bush administration distort or misconstrue intelligence to show that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction? No. The intelligence agencies did that by themselves.

    The intelligence agencies, Silberman says, “clearly indicated that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. They made that clear to both President Clinton and President Bush. They made that clear in the national intelligence estimate of 2002.” How did the intelligence agencies get such a basic, vital question so thoroughly wrong? “A lot of fundamental and almost amateurish mistakes.”

    Consider, for instance, the intelligence that Saddam had resumed his program to produce biological weapons.

    “That claim came to American intelligence from several different entry points,” Silberman says. “[But] it turned out that it all came from a single source, one person who had made the claim to German intelligence. Nobody in American intelligence realized that what looked like three or four bits of corroborating evidence was really all the same phony thing.”

    The intelligence community, in other words, proved incapable of a task that takes place dozens of times a day in every newsroom in America: double sourcing.

    Bush lied? Hardly. The intelligence agencies screwed up.

    Silberman, however, refuses simply to shift blame for the war from the administration to the intelligence agencies. Instead he rejects the idea that the invasion of Iraq represented a war of choice in the first place.

    “Even people at the highest level of the Iraqi regime believed Saddam had weapons of mass destruction,” Silberman explains. “Saddam was running a bluff. He was bluffing his own people, and he was bluffing Iran. It would have been impossible for any intelligence agency in the world … to have determined that Saddam had destroyed his weapons of mass destruction.”

    Even if the intelligence agencies had performed flawlessly, they would therefore have found themselves advising the president of grave dangers. “A first-class [intelligence] opinion would have said, ‘We [the intelligence agencies] know Saddam once had weapons of mass destruction, we know that he proved capable of using them, and we have no evidence that he has destroyed them. Although we cannot prove that Saddam still has weapons of mass destruction, we think it highly likely that he has.’”

    If the intelligence agencies had submitted just such a report–an accurate, considered assessment–what would have happened?

    “The country,” says Silberman, “would probably have gone to war anyway.”

    “When Germany seized the Rhineland in 1936, France and Britain failed to respond. I’m sure leaders in France and Britain thought, ‘Well, if we went to war now, we would be waging a war of choice.’ But was it really a war of choice? Of course not. By 1939 there was no choice.

    “When the Bush administration went into Iraq, the timing may have been a matter of choice,” Silberman says. “But historians will probably conclude that the war itself was inevitable.”

    The Bush administration no doubt made its mistakes, and the intelligence agencies undeniably committed one bungle after another. But after years of attempting to blame each other for the conflict, Americans should recognize that the war in Iraq was never ours to choose. A barbarian forced it upon us.

     

     
    Raiders22
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    Posted: Aug. 13, 2014 - 3:50 PM ET #110

    I understand he has an agenda but this from Garlock:

    Garlock: ...Republican-held Congress declared war on Iraq under the misinformation from George W. Bush and person Cheney.

    So President Bush lied to Congress in 2002 to get them to pass the Joint Resolution to Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq. That resolution contained 23 reasons to authorize force, many of them contained in theIRAQI BREACH OF INTERNATIONAL OBLIGATIONS also in 1998.

    Did President Bush go back in time to lie to the Congress in 1998 as well? Let's break down the 23 points and see where they are found.

    +++

    1. Iraq invaded Kuwait. -- Also found in the Iraq Liberation act of 1998.

    2. Iraq was to agree to a U.N cease fire -- Also found in the Iraq Liberation act of 1998. Also found in Iraqi Breach of International Obligations.

    3. Iraq had a large stockpile of chemical weapons and a biological and nuclear weapsons program -- Also found in Iraqi Breach of International Obligations.

    4. Iraq thwarted weapons inspectors --  Also found in the Iraq Liberation act of 1998. Also found in Iraqi Breach of International Obligations.

    5. Iraq was in breach of the internations obligations up to 1998 -- Specifically mentions the Iraqi Breach of International Obligations law. Also found in the Iraq Liberation act of 1998.

    6. Iraq still in breach of international obligations, still has a chemical and biological capability, and still seeking nuclear capability after 1998.

    7. Iraq violated U.N resolutions by suppressing it's civilian population and still has items stolen from Kuwait --- Also found in the Iraq Liberation act of 1998. Also found in the Iraq Liberation act of 1998.

    8, Iraq used WMD against other nations and its own people -- Also found in the Iraq Liberation act of 1998.

    9. Iraq tried to kill former President George H.W. Bush and fired on U.S. military -- Also found in the Iraq Liberation act of 1998.

    10. Iraq harbors Al Qaeda members.

    11. Iraq harbors other terrorsts.

    12. September 11, 2001 underscored the gravity of terrorists gaining WMD.

    13. Since Iraq has used WMD, there is a risk it may sell WMD to terrorists.

    14. U.N Security Council Resolution 678 (1990) authorized the use of all necessary means to enforce prior U.N Resolutions including the development of WMD. Other U.N resolutions told Iraq to comply with weapons inspectors, stop suppressing its civilian population and thretening its neighbors.  -- Also found in the Iraq Liberation act of 1998. Also found in the Iraq Liberation act of 1998.

    15. Public Law 102-1 of 1991, Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution, was implemented because Iraq had failed to comply with the many UN Security Council Resolutions. - Also found in the Iraq Liberation act of 1998. Also found in the Iraq Liberation act of 1998.

    16. Congress in December 1991, IRAQ AND THE REQUIREMENTS OF SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTION 687 & 688, supports all necessary means to support UN Security Councel Resolutions.

    17. Mention of Iraq Liberation act of 1998.

    18. On Sep 12, 2001, President Bush committed us to work with the U.N. Security Council to meet the common challenge posed by Iraq, to work for all necessary resolutions and enforce current ones.

    19. The U.S. is commited to prosecute the War on Terror. Iraq supports international terrorism, has developed WMD, and has violated UNSC resolutions. All UNSC resolutions must be enforced by all means necessary including the use of force.

    20. Congress has taken steps to pursue the War on Terror including provision of authorities  and funding to take necessary actions against international terrorist organizations including those nations or organizations who  planned, authorized, committed or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001 or harbored such persons or organizations.

    21. Congress will continue to take action against those nations, organizations or persons who planned, authorized, committed or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such persons or organizations.

    22. The President has the authority under the Constituton to act against and protect the U.S from terrorists under Public Law 107-40, Authorization for Use of Military Force, on September 18,2001.

    23. It is in the national security interest of the U.S to restore peace the the Persian Gulf region.

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    I understand he has an agenda but this from Garlock:

    Garlock: ...Republican-held Congress declared war on Iraq under the misinformation from George W. Bush and person Cheney.

    So President Bush lied to Congress in 2002 to get them to pass the Joint Resolution to Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq. That resolution contained 23 reasons to authorize force, many of them contained in theIRAQI BREACH OF INTERNATIONAL OBLIGATIONS also in 1998.

    Did President Bush go back in time to lie to the Congress in 1998 as well? Let's break down the 23 points and see where they are found.

    +++

    1. Iraq invaded Kuwait. -- Also found in the Iraq Liberation act of 1998.

    2. Iraq was to agree to a U.N cease fire -- Also found in the Iraq Liberation act of 1998. Also found in Iraqi Breach of International Obligations.

    3. Iraq had a large stockpile of chemical weapons and a biological and nuclear weapsons program -- Also found in Iraqi Breach of International Obligations.

    4. Iraq thwarted weapons inspectors --  Also found in the Iraq Liberation act of 1998. Also found in Iraqi Breach of International Obligations.

    5. Iraq was in breach of the internations obligations up to 1998 -- Specifically mentions the Iraqi Breach of International Obligations law. Also found in the Iraq Liberation act of 1998.

    6. Iraq still in breach of international obligations, still has a chemical and biological capability, and still seeking nuclear capability after 1998.

    7. Iraq violated U.N resolutions by suppressing it's civilian population and still has items stolen from Kuwait --- Also found in the Iraq Liberation act of 1998. Also found in the Iraq Liberation act of 1998.

    8, Iraq used WMD against other nations and its own people -- Also found in the Iraq Liberation act of 1998.

    9. Iraq tried to kill former President George H.W. Bush and fired on U.S. military -- Also found in the Iraq Liberation act of 1998.

    10. Iraq harbors Al Qaeda members.

    11. Iraq harbors other terrorsts.

    12. September 11, 2001 underscored the gravity of terrorists gaining WMD.

    13. Since Iraq has used WMD, there is a risk it may sell WMD to terrorists.

    14. U.N Security Council Resolution 678 (1990) authorized the use of all necessary means to enforce prior U.N Resolutions including the development of WMD. Other U.N resolutions told Iraq to comply with weapons inspectors, stop suppressing its civilian population and thretening its neighbors.  -- Also found in the Iraq Liberation act of 1998. Also found in the Iraq Liberation act of 1998.

    15. Public Law 102-1 of 1991, Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution, was implemented because Iraq had failed to comply with the many UN Security Council Resolutions. - Also found in the Iraq Liberation act of 1998. Also found in the Iraq Liberation act of 1998.

    16. Congress in December 1991, IRAQ AND THE REQUIREMENTS OF SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTION 687 & 688, supports all necessary means to support UN Security Councel Resolutions.

    17. Mention of Iraq Liberation act of 1998.

    18. On Sep 12, 2001, President Bush committed us to work with the U.N. Security Council to meet the common challenge posed by Iraq, to work for all necessary resolutions and enforce current ones.

    19. The U.S. is commited to prosecute the War on Terror. Iraq supports international terrorism, has developed WMD, and has violated UNSC resolutions. All UNSC resolutions must be enforced by all means necessary including the use of force.

    20. Congress has taken steps to pursue the War on Terror including provision of authorities  and funding to take necessary actions against international terrorist organizations including those nations or organizations who  planned, authorized, committed or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001 or harbored such persons or organizations.

    21. Congress will continue to take action against those nations, organizations or persons who planned, authorized, committed or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such persons or organizations.

    22. The President has the authority under the Constituton to act against and protect the U.S from terrorists under Public Law 107-40, Authorization for Use of Military Force, on September 18,2001.

    23. It is in the national security interest of the U.S to restore peace the the Persian Gulf region.

     
    Raiders22
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    Posted: Aug. 13, 2014 - 3:51 PM ET #111

    All items in bold were mentioned in Laws PRIOR to President Bush.

    Items 6, 10, 11, 12, 13, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22 & 23 were not mentioned in the 1998 laws.

    Items 12 and 13 only speak to risks not actual events, that leaves Items 6, 10, 11, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22 & 23.

    Items 17, 18, 20, & 22 list historical actions. That leaves 6, 10, 11, 19, 21, & 23.

    Items 19, 21 and 23 speak to commitments and interests of the U.S. That leaves Items 6, 10 & 11.

    Items 10 & 11 spoke to Iraq harboring terrorists. Abdul Rahman Yasin, involved in the 1993 bombing of the WTC,  was harbored in Iraq. Abu Musab al-Zarqawi  settled in Iraq in 2002, ABU MUSA'AB AL-ZARQAWI [AKAs: KHALAILAH, Ahmed Fadee Ii AL-KHALAYLAH, Ahmad Fadil Nazzali ABU AL-MU'TAZ], has ties to al-Qaida, Asbat al-Ansar and Hizballah.

    That leaves Item 6, let's look at that ---

    Whereas Iraq both poses a continuing threat to the national security of the United States and international peace and security in the Persian Gulf region and remains in material and unacceptable breach of its international obligations by, among other things, continuing to possess and develop a significant chemical and biological weapons capability, actively seeking a nuclear weapons capability, and supporting and harboring terrorist organizations

    So, where is the lie in there that Bush supplied to the Congress in 2002?

    The Duelfer Report confirmed the findings of Item 6 ---

    ...Saddam retained the capacity and the intent to restart his production of WMDs once the U.N. sanctions regime had finally crumbled. In this he was clearly in breach of U.N. resolution 1441. The Iraqi Intelligence Service maintained a set of undeclared laboratories to research and test chemical and biological weapons, including through human tests. He had the capacity to produce, within six months, sulfur mustard and, within two years, nerve agents. The Survey Group also concluded that Saddam still had dreams of acquiring nuclear weapons and that he intended to resume his missile programs, potentially for the delivery of WMD.



    Read more: https://newsbusters.org/liberal-lies-president-bush-lied-congress-get-us-iraq-truth-he-did-not.html#ixzz3AIsme5Mc
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    All items in bold were mentioned in Laws PRIOR to President Bush.

    Items 6, 10, 11, 12, 13, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22 & 23 were not mentioned in the 1998 laws.

    Items 12 and 13 only speak to risks not actual events, that leaves Items 6, 10, 11, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22 & 23.

    Items 17, 18, 20, & 22 list historical actions. That leaves 6, 10, 11, 19, 21, & 23.

    Items 19, 21 and 23 speak to commitments and interests of the U.S. That leaves Items 6, 10 & 11.

    Items 10 & 11 spoke to Iraq harboring terrorists. Abdul Rahman Yasin, involved in the 1993 bombing of the WTC,  was harbored in Iraq. Abu Musab al-Zarqawi  settled in Iraq in 2002, ABU MUSA'AB AL-ZARQAWI [AKAs: KHALAILAH, Ahmed Fadee Ii AL-KHALAYLAH, Ahmad Fadil Nazzali ABU AL-MU'TAZ], has ties to al-Qaida, Asbat al-Ansar and Hizballah.

    That leaves Item 6, let's look at that ---

    Whereas Iraq both poses a continuing threat to the national security of the United States and international peace and security in the Persian Gulf region and remains in material and unacceptable breach of its international obligations by, among other things, continuing to possess and develop a significant chemical and biological weapons capability, actively seeking a nuclear weapons capability, and supporting and harboring terrorist organizations

    So, where is the lie in there that Bush supplied to the Congress in 2002?

    The Duelfer Report confirmed the findings of Item 6 ---

    ...Saddam retained the capacity and the intent to restart his production of WMDs once the U.N. sanctions regime had finally crumbled. In this he was clearly in breach of U.N. resolution 1441. The Iraqi Intelligence Service maintained a set of undeclared laboratories to research and test chemical and biological weapons, including through human tests. He had the capacity to produce, within six months, sulfur mustard and, within two years, nerve agents. The Survey Group also concluded that Saddam still had dreams of acquiring nuclear weapons and that he intended to resume his missile programs, potentially for the delivery of WMD.



    Read more: https://newsbusters.org/liberal-lies-president-bush-lied-congress-get-us-iraq-truth-he-did-not.html#ixzz3AIsme5Mc
     
    Raiders22
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    Posted: Aug. 13, 2014 - 4:09 PM ET #112

    I honestly understand there are plots, conspiracies that have truth to them.  I did not like to know about, say, the smallpox blankets or the syphllis and LSD studies.  I feel all of those were wrong.  I also feel to blantantly lie to go to war and get people killed is wrong.  Again, if it came out that was the case I would be very disheartened.  Maybe I just do not want to believe that things like this can/do happen so I am holding out as long a spossible on this one.  Of course, all good conspiracies have lots of truths and conclusions that make sense. That is what makes them entertaining and interesting, they are so close to being true that they are believable.  Be really cool the Roswell thing or no moon landing, etc.  I would be okay with those because they didn't hurt/kill anyone.    
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    I honestly understand there are plots, conspiracies that have truth to them.  I did not like to know about, say, the smallpox blankets or the syphllis and LSD studies.  I feel all of those were wrong.  I also feel to blantantly lie to go to war and get people killed is wrong.  Again, if it came out that was the case I would be very disheartened.  Maybe I just do not want to believe that things like this can/do happen so I am holding out as long a spossible on this one.  Of course, all good conspiracies have lots of truths and conclusions that make sense. That is what makes them entertaining and interesting, they are so close to being true that they are believable.  Be really cool the Roswell thing or no moon landing, etc.  I would be okay with those because they didn't hurt/kill anyone.    
     
    MoneySRH
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    Posted: Aug. 14, 2014 - 6:43 AM ET #113

    Wow, Raiders... you went wayyyyyyyyy off the rails. You went full on 14daroad batchit crazy. Like I said, the surefire way to win a political debate is by being more informed than your opponent. When the opponent exposes his lack of intellectual capacity or goes silent that is when the debate has been won...

    "I agree ---and you naive people are also easily swayed."

    My response to post #103… I’m the naive one? I’m clearly more informed on American history and politics than you are. You are obviously intellectually inferior to me. You’re the exact definition of an uninformed voter. You have seriously weak historical and political acumen. I noticed you blatantly ignored the Bush-Blair 2003 Iraq memo...

    "Um..actually...no...you didn't...that is the whole point."

    My response to post #104… It’s not my fault that you can’t comprehend what you are reading...

    "And...isn't this by definition their job--they didn't decide to 'plan' the conspiracy or the circumstances to go to war.  Not their decision---their job is to plan."

    "And...? What does this have to with the original reason for going?  This is part of that dreaded 'exit strategy' planning that all you Leftists complain about. Not the drummed up WMDs."


    My response to post #105 and #106… LOL, Raiders, damn, you are seriously gullible and incredibly naive. The job of the Office of Special Plans was that of a defense team. It was to examine and recommend various excuses, justifications, and mitigating factors to excuse liability. Bush didn't lie, (Ahem), he bent the truth...

    What does post #108 have to do with the debate? My response…

    State Department documents dealing with the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war show that US Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld helped Saddam Hussein build his arsenal of deadly chemical and biological weapons, which included viruses such as anthrax and bubonic plague. The State Department documents were declassified and released under the Freedom of Information Act. BOOM!

    My response to Post #109…The Silberman-Robb Commission (Bush defense team) evaluated ONLY the American intelligence on Iraq, not what the Bush administration did with it.

    The Silberman-Robb Commission (Bush defense team) did a really good job throwing the blame on intelligence agencies.

    The Silberman-Robb Commission (Bush defense team) left out the second phase of the report and… conceded “that there is no doubt that intelligence analysts operated in an environment shaped by intense policymaker interest.”

    The Silberman-Robb Commission (Bush defense team) believes that intelligence analysts are to blame (Ahem, scapegoats) and were pressured by the OSP to construct intelligence to fit their agenda without saying the words “manipulated or coerced.”

    If the intelligence agencies had submitted just such a report–an accurate, considered assessment–what would have happened? “The country,” says Silberman, “would probably have gone to war anyway.”

    My response to Post #110 and #111… I’m using the leaked government documents, the senate report, and former government officials and former CIA officers and you use NewsBusters? That wingnut site is a joke...

    "I also feel to blatantly lie to go to war and get people killed is wrong.  Again, if it came out that was the case I would be very disheartened.  Maybe I just do not want to believe that things like this can/do happen so I am holding out as long as possible on this one."

    My response to post #112… Well, every president has lied to go to war. That is a fact. Everything has come out but you choose to ignore it. It’s a denial disorder. People with denial disorder are afraid of the truth... so living in denial is much easier to live with...


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    Wow, Raiders... you went wayyyyyyyyy off the rails. You went full on 14daroad batchit crazy. Like I said, the surefire way to win a political debate is by being more informed than your opponent. When the opponent exposes his lack of intellectual capacity or goes silent that is when the debate has been won...

    "I agree ---and you naive people are also easily swayed."

    My response to post #103… I’m the naive one? I’m clearly more informed on American history and politics than you are. You are obviously intellectually inferior to me. You’re the exact definition of an uninformed voter. You have seriously weak historical and political acumen. I noticed you blatantly ignored the Bush-Blair 2003 Iraq memo...

    "Um..actually...no...you didn't...that is the whole point."

    My response to post #104… It’s not my fault that you can’t comprehend what you are reading...

    "And...isn't this by definition their job--they didn't decide to 'plan' the conspiracy or the circumstances to go to war.  Not their decision---their job is to plan."

    "And...? What does this have to with the original reason for going?  This is part of that dreaded 'exit strategy' planning that all you Leftists complain about. Not the drummed up WMDs."


    My response to post #105 and #106… LOL, Raiders, damn, you are seriously gullible and incredibly naive. The job of the Office of Special Plans was that of a defense team. It was to examine and recommend various excuses, justifications, and mitigating factors to excuse liability. Bush didn't lie, (Ahem), he bent the truth...

    What does post #108 have to do with the debate? My response…

    State Department documents dealing with the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war show that US Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld helped Saddam Hussein build his arsenal of deadly chemical and biological weapons, which included viruses such as anthrax and bubonic plague. The State Department documents were declassified and released under the Freedom of Information Act. BOOM!

    My response to Post #109…The Silberman-Robb Commission (Bush defense team) evaluated ONLY the American intelligence on Iraq, not what the Bush administration did with it.

    The Silberman-Robb Commission (Bush defense team) did a really good job throwing the blame on intelligence agencies.

    The Silberman-Robb Commission (Bush defense team) left out the second phase of the report and… conceded “that there is no doubt that intelligence analysts operated in an environment shaped by intense policymaker interest.”

    The Silberman-Robb Commission (Bush defense team) believes that intelligence analysts are to blame (Ahem, scapegoats) and were pressured by the OSP to construct intelligence to fit their agenda without saying the words “manipulated or coerced.”

    If the intelligence agencies had submitted just such a report–an accurate, considered assessment–what would have happened? “The country,” says Silberman, “would probably have gone to war anyway.”

    My response to Post #110 and #111… I’m using the leaked government documents, the senate report, and former government officials and former CIA officers and you use NewsBusters? That wingnut site is a joke...

    "I also feel to blatantly lie to go to war and get people killed is wrong.  Again, if it came out that was the case I would be very disheartened.  Maybe I just do not want to believe that things like this can/do happen so I am holding out as long as possible on this one."

    My response to post #112… Well, every president has lied to go to war. That is a fact. Everything has come out but you choose to ignore it. It’s a denial disorder. People with denial disorder are afraid of the truth... so living in denial is much easier to live with...


     
    Raiders22
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    Posted: Aug. 14, 2014 - 12:21 PM ET #114

    You make it sound like the memo came out years before the war. All the intel and SH swerving inspections and all was in by then. So bush and Blair had meeting to game plan...that's what you do. 

    Again, name calling and cackling doesn't make your points stronger. 

    If you have to present a case to a group of people and sway them you don't try name calling and cackling at them. All that does is make them think you are frustrated because you cannot prove your points. 

    In your estimation no war was worthy or getting into it would seem. That is okay. Again there were people that were not even for WWI or WWII. So of course people will find faults with an invasion of another country. I don't have an issue with that. But to think a handful of people orchestrated the war and mislead congress and folks based on intel they believed was true---cannot go with this. Until one of the big 20 come out and say so. 

    Sure, there are many folks that know there 'thing' inside and out. That is why they sound so convincing and how they away people. I left the airport years ago and was on shuttle with an engineer that was 9-11 guy. It was absolutely amazing how well he knew the subject and how very convincing of it all he was. He connected everything, had an answer for everything, knew it inside and out.  I mean, many intelligent people I know, nearly everyone on the bus, was convinced by the time the shuttle stopped. 

    I promise you that you know this way better than I do. I freely admit it. Because it has never been a burning desire of mine to say that no airplane parts were found at the pentagon, that steel doesn't melt at that temperature, that one bullet doesn't travel that way, or that 20 folks conspired to plan an invasion of another country.  I may be completely wrong and will admit it if the case is proven beyond doubt. 

    I am not naive enough to believe there aren't devious people in charge. For example, the Northwoods (can't remember the name for sure) with Cuba. Awful to even think something like that was thought up by our own leaders.  So, again, I will join you on this if it were proven to be the ultimate devious plot you seem to think it was. Until then I continue to hav faith, as best as possible, in our leaders and intel. If extrapolations and mistakes were made, hopefully out political and intelligence guys have learned from then. 
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    You make it sound like the memo came out years before the war. All the intel and SH swerving inspections and all was in by then. So bush and Blair had meeting to game plan...that's what you do. 

    Again, name calling and cackling doesn't make your points stronger. 

    If you have to present a case to a group of people and sway them you don't try name calling and cackling at them. All that does is make them think you are frustrated because you cannot prove your points. 

    In your estimation no war was worthy or getting into it would seem. That is okay. Again there were people that were not even for WWI or WWII. So of course people will find faults with an invasion of another country. I don't have an issue with that. But to think a handful of people orchestrated the war and mislead congress and folks based on intel they believed was true---cannot go with this. Until one of the big 20 come out and say so. 

    Sure, there are many folks that know there 'thing' inside and out. That is why they sound so convincing and how they away people. I left the airport years ago and was on shuttle with an engineer that was 9-11 guy. It was absolutely amazing how well he knew the subject and how very convincing of it all he was. He connected everything, had an answer for everything, knew it inside and out.  I mean, many intelligent people I know, nearly everyone on the bus, was convinced by the time the shuttle stopped. 

    I promise you that you know this way better than I do. I freely admit it. Because it has never been a burning desire of mine to say that no airplane parts were found at the pentagon, that steel doesn't melt at that temperature, that one bullet doesn't travel that way, or that 20 folks conspired to plan an invasion of another country.  I may be completely wrong and will admit it if the case is proven beyond doubt. 

    I am not naive enough to believe there aren't devious people in charge. For example, the Northwoods (can't remember the name for sure) with Cuba. Awful to even think something like that was thought up by our own leaders.  So, again, I will join you on this if it were proven to be the ultimate devious plot you seem to think it was. Until then I continue to hav faith, as best as possible, in our leaders and intel. If extrapolations and mistakes were made, hopefully out political and intelligence guys have learned from then. 
     
    wallstreetcappers
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    Posted: Aug. 14, 2014 - 12:30 PM ET #115

    Raiders,

    All the above you posted really is not relevant at all.

    Where is the DIRECT threat to the US as a country or our citizens?

    If we are INVADING a country TWICE why are we doing this unless there is DIRECT harm coming to this country?

    I know Saddam was a tough dictator and was not fond of the UN..blah blah blah..how does that equate to invading Iraq?

    The only POSSIBLE connection would be to 9-11 but we know that was never made nor was it really the crux of the reasoning.

    If we are taking out all the bad guys who dislike the UN why did we start there?

    It isnt like Saddam just at that very moment did something he hadnt done for decades before..why even try to rationalize this? We invaded that country and it had nothing to do with protecting our soil or stopping Iraq from harming US citizens. Anything outside that does not warrant a lone invasion as we did TWICE.

    I dont get how anyone can even try to rationalize the situation.
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    Raiders,

    All the above you posted really is not relevant at all.

    Where is the DIRECT threat to the US as a country or our citizens?

    If we are INVADING a country TWICE why are we doing this unless there is DIRECT harm coming to this country?

    I know Saddam was a tough dictator and was not fond of the UN..blah blah blah..how does that equate to invading Iraq?

    The only POSSIBLE connection would be to 9-11 but we know that was never made nor was it really the crux of the reasoning.

    If we are taking out all the bad guys who dislike the UN why did we start there?

    It isnt like Saddam just at that very moment did something he hadnt done for decades before..why even try to rationalize this? We invaded that country and it had nothing to do with protecting our soil or stopping Iraq from harming US citizens. Anything outside that does not warrant a lone invasion as we did TWICE.

    I dont get how anyone can even try to rationalize the situation.
     
    Raiders22
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    Posted: Aug. 14, 2014 - 1:44 PM ET #116

    I understand someone feeling this way WSC.  Just easy to make that argument even in WWI or Vietnam etc.  I am not even saying you are wrong. But if you follow that logical to its conclusion at what point do you step in, being the world's super power?  If a country is direct threat to an ally?  If they take over another country?  If they take over 20 other countries?  When they finally attack us?  

    I hear you. But I disagree. I think it is very relevant. We have gone many places that haven't been a DIRECT threat to us. Maybe tht is wrong. I jut think we have a certain obligation after being so blessed in this country. I do realize we cannot be the world's police.  If you feel we should've sat this one out. I gotcha. 
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    I understand someone feeling this way WSC.  Just easy to make that argument even in WWI or Vietnam etc.  I am not even saying you are wrong. But if you follow that logical to its conclusion at what point do you step in, being the world's super power?  If a country is direct threat to an ally?  If they take over another country?  If they take over 20 other countries?  When they finally attack us?  

    I hear you. But I disagree. I think it is very relevant. We have gone many places that haven't been a DIRECT threat to us. Maybe tht is wrong. I jut think we have a certain obligation after being so blessed in this country. I do realize we cannot be the world's police.  If you feel we should've sat this one out. I gotcha. 
     
    wallstreetcappers
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    Posted: Aug. 14, 2014 - 4:38 PM ET #117

    Quote Originally Posted by Raiders22:

    I understand someone feeling this way WSC.  Just easy to make that argument even in WWI or Vietnam etc.  I am not even saying you are wrong. But if you follow that logical to its conclusion at what point do you step in, being the world's super power?  If a country is direct threat to an ally?  If they take over another country?  If they take over 20 other countries?  When they finally attack us?  

    I hear you. But I disagree. I think it is very relevant. We have gone many places that haven't been a DIRECT threat to us. Maybe tht is wrong. I jut think we have a certain obligation after being so blessed in this country. I do realize we cannot be the world's police.  If you feel we should've sat this one out. I gotcha. 

    Those wars were different, in most every single possible way.

    First and most important, we were not INVADING those countries, we were not the only party going in as we did under the guise of all this info which would IMPLY that our citizens and country were in danger. We sat out in both world wars, we were not the one and only party involved and we were not invading anyone. We were responding as a large collective to a known threat who had advanced on other countries. Big big difference.

    Vietnam was a horrible decision, probably right up there with Iraq an Korea was also in the same category..they were military interventions we chose to participate in and take a side and both ended up poorly..if you are comparing Iraq with Korea and Vietnam I would agree that they were bad decisions and should not have happened..and in both cases the public was not in support of them and it ended badly for us.

    I would feel differently if Iraq had dome something to an ally which many of our citizens were living. I personally do not think Kuwait is any ally, they treated our troops like trash (I had several friends who served and told me first hand how poorly they were treated by the Kuwaiti people) and our incentive was oil and political favors. 

    I dont know how you could compare what Germany did and what Saddam did, but I do like your Vietnam and Korea comparison...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raiders22:

    I understand someone feeling this way WSC.  Just easy to make that argument even in WWI or Vietnam etc.  I am not even saying you are wrong. But if you follow that logical to its conclusion at what point do you step in, being the world's super power?  If a country is direct threat to an ally?  If they take over another country?  If they take over 20 other countries?  When they finally attack us?  

    I hear you. But I disagree. I think it is very relevant. We have gone many places that haven't been a DIRECT threat to us. Maybe tht is wrong. I jut think we have a certain obligation after being so blessed in this country. I do realize we cannot be the world's police.  If you feel we should've sat this one out. I gotcha. 

    Those wars were different, in most every single possible way.

    First and most important, we were not INVADING those countries, we were not the only party going in as we did under the guise of all this info which would IMPLY that our citizens and country were in danger. We sat out in both world wars, we were not the one and only party involved and we were not invading anyone. We were responding as a large collective to a known threat who had advanced on other countries. Big big difference.

    Vietnam was a horrible decision, probably right up there with Iraq an Korea was also in the same category..they were military interventions we chose to participate in and take a side and both ended up poorly..if you are comparing Iraq with Korea and Vietnam I would agree that they were bad decisions and should not have happened..and in both cases the public was not in support of them and it ended badly for us.

    I would feel differently if Iraq had dome something to an ally which many of our citizens were living. I personally do not think Kuwait is any ally, they treated our troops like trash (I had several friends who served and told me first hand how poorly they were treated by the Kuwaiti people) and our incentive was oil and political favors. 

    I dont know how you could compare what Germany did and what Saddam did, but I do like your Vietnam and Korea comparison...
     
    Raiders22
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    Posted: Aug. 14, 2014 - 5:34 PM ET #118

    To clear up. WWII and WWI are the only wars/interventions you are okay with. No others?  No need to ever go to another country for better good of others or to stop bad?  Only if we are attacked first. Only in countries where many (your choice of how many) of our people live. Never go where genocide is going on? Anytime you send troops in or bombers, etc. you are invading another country. 

    I understand that people don't like war. Pacifists, cowards, isolationists, don't think any are just unless we are directly attacked and all that.  I respect all of that.  I am just tired of folks that think it was a great conspiracy for a select few to make money off of oil etc. 
    can you imagine how gleeful a reporter would be to get solid proof of this?  This is my problem. No necessarily if it was just. 
    I respect your point though because there is something to be said for Ron Paul type philosophy. 
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    To clear up. WWII and WWI are the only wars/interventions you are okay with. No others?  No need to ever go to another country for better good of others or to stop bad?  Only if we are attacked first. Only in countries where many (your choice of how many) of our people live. Never go where genocide is going on? Anytime you send troops in or bombers, etc. you are invading another country. 

    I understand that people don't like war. Pacifists, cowards, isolationists, don't think any are just unless we are directly attacked and all that.  I respect all of that.  I am just tired of folks that think it was a great conspiracy for a select few to make money off of oil etc. 
    can you imagine how gleeful a reporter would be to get solid proof of this?  This is my problem. No necessarily if it was just. 
    I respect your point though because there is something to be said for Ron Paul type philosophy. 
     
    wallstreetcappers
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    Posted: Aug. 14, 2014 - 6:13 PM ET #119

    Oh I am far from a Ron Paul fan, I guess you havent been around enough to know that.

    I am not an isolationist at all, no way. I know you cannot act that way and be the super power that we are.

    You are mixing terms, that is my issue.. war vs invasion. I dont see a comparison between WWI or WWII and Iraq. Iraq was all us, we started it, forwarded it and fronted it..it was our deal. The WW's were not our deal, we were not the big and only, plus how exactly did Saddam take over multiple countries or take do what happened in WWI? Saddam was tough on certain groups in his own country but never did he take over another country or kill a dignitary etc..

    I dont think you can be an isolationist, that does not work for me but I dont consider what we did in Iraq to have ANY redeeming qualities to the better good of the world. In fact as we are seeing now it opened up a hornets nest and has been the source of probably millions of deaths and trillions of dollars cost.

    There are many ways to deal with international issues, Iraq did not require an invasion either time and if we were going after the real bad guys, why have we not gone into Korea or done something about China over the last several hundreds of years or gone in and cleaned up house in Africa???
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    Oh I am far from a Ron Paul fan, I guess you havent been around enough to know that.

    I am not an isolationist at all, no way. I know you cannot act that way and be the super power that we are.

    You are mixing terms, that is my issue.. war vs invasion. I dont see a comparison between WWI or WWII and Iraq. Iraq was all us, we started it, forwarded it and fronted it..it was our deal. The WW's were not our deal, we were not the big and only, plus how exactly did Saddam take over multiple countries or take do what happened in WWI? Saddam was tough on certain groups in his own country but never did he take over another country or kill a dignitary etc..

    I dont think you can be an isolationist, that does not work for me but I dont consider what we did in Iraq to have ANY redeeming qualities to the better good of the world. In fact as we are seeing now it opened up a hornets nest and has been the source of probably millions of deaths and trillions of dollars cost.

    There are many ways to deal with international issues, Iraq did not require an invasion either time and if we were going after the real bad guys, why have we not gone into Korea or done something about China over the last several hundreds of years or gone in and cleaned up house in Africa???
     
    Raiders22
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    Posted: Aug. 14, 2014 - 6:28 PM ET #120

    Again. What other war/intervention were you okay with? Very interested in your answer to this. 

    Didn't say SH took over other countries. I am asking you if that is the reason for going to war. 

    Not saying war was fought correctly or the aftermath is better.  Not my point.  The question is not whether you can see 100% all the way to the end and evaluate it. I'm askin if it is ever worth helping out and if so when?

    Not saying you are Paul fan. But if you don't wanna get involved. Maybe Teddy fan type. Just saying I understand if you wanna keep to yourself.  It is cool with me, that part. 

    There are some that would dispute your assertion about us and WWI. 

    I understand your point about why Iraq?  I have always thought wacko right that said   Oh well we got rid of evil dictator    were loony. Why not get rid of Castro 90 miles south?  Just don't think it is a good reason to say not these; but those. Always seemed a copout to me. Sure there are plenty of evil to deal with and certainly you have to do it in different ways. Korea and China way different than Iraq though. 

    Yes. WWs not out deal. But we made them out deal for a reason. Right?
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    Again. What other war/intervention were you okay with? Very interested in your answer to this. 

    Didn't say SH took over other countries. I am asking you if that is the reason for going to war. 

    Not saying war was fought correctly or the aftermath is better.  Not my point.  The question is not whether you can see 100% all the way to the end and evaluate it. I'm askin if it is ever worth helping out and if so when?

    Not saying you are Paul fan. But if you don't wanna get involved. Maybe Teddy fan type. Just saying I understand if you wanna keep to yourself.  It is cool with me, that part. 

    There are some that would dispute your assertion about us and WWI. 

    I understand your point about why Iraq?  I have always thought wacko right that said   Oh well we got rid of evil dictator    were loony. Why not get rid of Castro 90 miles south?  Just don't think it is a good reason to say not these; but those. Always seemed a copout to me. Sure there are plenty of evil to deal with and certainly you have to do it in different ways. Korea and China way different than Iraq though. 

    Yes. WWs not out deal. But we made them out deal for a reason. Right?
     
    MoneySRH
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    Posted: Aug. 15, 2014 - 10:29 AM ET #121

    Quote Originally Posted by Raiders22:

    You make it sound like the memo came out years before the war. All the intel and SH swerving inspections and all was in by then. So bush and Blair had meeting to game plan...that's what you do. 

    Again, name calling and cackling doesn't make your points stronger. 

    If you have to present a case to a group of people and sway them you don't try name calling and cackling at them. All that does is make them think you are frustrated because you cannot prove your points. 

    In your estimation no war was worthy or getting into it would seem. That is okay. Again there were people that were not even for WWI or WWII. So of course people will find faults with an invasion of another country. I don't have an issue with that. But to think a handful of people orchestrated the war and mislead congress and folks based on intel they believed was true---cannot go with this. Until one of the big 20 come out and say so. 

    Sure, there are many folks that know there 'thing' inside and out. That is why they sound so convincing and how they away people. I left the airport years ago and was on shuttle with an engineer that was 9-11 guy. It was absolutely amazing how well he knew the subject and how very convincing of it all he was. He connected everything, had an answer for everything, knew it inside and out.  I mean, many intelligent people I know, nearly everyone on the bus, was convinced by the time the shuttle stopped. 

    I promise you that you know this way better than I do. I freely admit it. Because it has never been a burning desire of mine to say that no airplane parts were found at the pentagon, that steel doesn't melt at that temperature, that one bullet doesn't travel that way, or that 20 folks conspired to plan an invasion of another country.  I may be completely wrong and will admit it if the case is proven beyond doubt. 

    I am not naive enough to believe there aren't devious people in charge. For example, the Northwoods (can't remember the name for sure) with Cuba. Awful to even think something like that was thought up by our own leaders.  So, again, I will join you on this if it were proven to be the ultimate devious plot you seem to think it was. Until then I continue to hav faith, as best as possible, in our leaders and intel. If extrapolations and mistakes were made, hopefully out political and intelligence guys have learned from then. 
    My frustration comes out when people lack basic reading comprehension and critical thinking skills. Every time you go off into a 9-11 diatribe? Why do you divert the debate to 9-11?

    What is the difference if it was a year or two months before the war? It shows the sick mindset of the masterminds.

    You mean the intelligence that showed that Saddam was a threat to Iran and not the United States and wasn’t capable of launching world domination.

    Not true, I believe in fighting for the greater good. I believe in the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, WW1, and WW2. These wars made this country the greatest country on earth and make me proud to be an American. Me being informed and against the Iraq war makes me a good citizen. It makes me sick that families lost their kids in a sick game of political chess.

    The US and UK knew the only reason why Saddam was defying inspections was to keep Iran at bay and Saddam feared Iran would find out Iraq’s vulnerable spots. It had absolutely nothing to do with being a threat to the US or world domination.

    Game planning to make an illegal war… legal, is inexcusable. The Silberman-Robb Commission found that the Bush administration intimidated anyone from playing devil’s advocate. Instead of intelligence agencies putting question marks in the reports… they put exclamation points! (To sell the war for the OSP)

    Preparing for an investigation into a possible inquiry on an illegal war by examining various excuses, justifications, and mitigating factors to excuse liability by strategically scapegoating the blame on intelligence agencies is deviously shameful. These are not the characteristics of a once noble world power.

    Almost all the world’s intelligence agencies all thought that Saddam was seriously weakened and inept after the gulf war and that he had lost the ability to produce WMDs. It was just about basic survival for Saddam in the end. The UN inspectors all said that they had found absolutely nothing to threaten US or its allies and that they just needed more time.

    The war was about the survival of the United States as the world’s super power. The US made the chess move to keep oil in US dollars (Saddam wanted to trade Iraqi oil in Euros) BOOM, I bet you didn’t know this bombshell… and it was a move to hold Russia, China and Iran at bay.

    Good stuff as usual, WSC
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raiders22:

    You make it sound like the memo came out years before the war. All the intel and SH swerving inspections and all was in by then. So bush and Blair had meeting to game plan...that's what you do. 

    Again, name calling and cackling doesn't make your points stronger. 

    If you have to present a case to a group of people and sway them you don't try name calling and cackling at them. All that does is make them think you are frustrated because you cannot prove your points. 

    In your estimation no war was worthy or getting into it would seem. That is okay. Again there were people that were not even for WWI or WWII. So of course people will find faults with an invasion of another country. I don't have an issue with that. But to think a handful of people orchestrated the war and mislead congress and folks based on intel they believed was true---cannot go with this. Until one of the big 20 come out and say so. 

    Sure, there are many folks that know there 'thing' inside and out. That is why they sound so convincing and how they away people. I left the airport years ago and was on shuttle with an engineer that was 9-11 guy. It was absolutely amazing how well he knew the subject and how very convincing of it all he was. He connected everything, had an answer for everything, knew it inside and out.  I mean, many intelligent people I know, nearly everyone on the bus, was convinced by the time the shuttle stopped. 

    I promise you that you know this way better than I do. I freely admit it. Because it has never been a burning desire of mine to say that no airplane parts were found at the pentagon, that steel doesn't melt at that temperature, that one bullet doesn't travel that way, or that 20 folks conspired to plan an invasion of another country.  I may be completely wrong and will admit it if the case is proven beyond doubt. 

    I am not naive enough to believe there aren't devious people in charge. For example, the Northwoods (can't remember the name for sure) with Cuba. Awful to even think something like that was thought up by our own leaders.  So, again, I will join you on this if it were proven to be the ultimate devious plot you seem to think it was. Until then I continue to hav faith, as best as possible, in our leaders and intel. If extrapolations and mistakes were made, hopefully out political and intelligence guys have learned from then. 
    My frustration comes out when people lack basic reading comprehension and critical thinking skills. Every time you go off into a 9-11 diatribe? Why do you divert the debate to 9-11?

    What is the difference if it was a year or two months before the war? It shows the sick mindset of the masterminds.

    You mean the intelligence that showed that Saddam was a threat to Iran and not the United States and wasn’t capable of launching world domination.

    Not true, I believe in fighting for the greater good. I believe in the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, WW1, and WW2. These wars made this country the greatest country on earth and make me proud to be an American. Me being informed and against the Iraq war makes me a good citizen. It makes me sick that families lost their kids in a sick game of political chess.

    The US and UK knew the only reason why Saddam was defying inspections was to keep Iran at bay and Saddam feared Iran would find out Iraq’s vulnerable spots. It had absolutely nothing to do with being a threat to the US or world domination.

    Game planning to make an illegal war… legal, is inexcusable. The Silberman-Robb Commission found that the Bush administration intimidated anyone from playing devil’s advocate. Instead of intelligence agencies putting question marks in the reports… they put exclamation points! (To sell the war for the OSP)

    Preparing for an investigation into a possible inquiry on an illegal war by examining various excuses, justifications, and mitigating factors to excuse liability by strategically scapegoating the blame on intelligence agencies is deviously shameful. These are not the characteristics of a once noble world power.

    Almost all the world’s intelligence agencies all thought that Saddam was seriously weakened and inept after the gulf war and that he had lost the ability to produce WMDs. It was just about basic survival for Saddam in the end. The UN inspectors all said that they had found absolutely nothing to threaten US or its allies and that they just needed more time.

    The war was about the survival of the United States as the world’s super power. The US made the chess move to keep oil in US dollars (Saddam wanted to trade Iraqi oil in Euros) BOOM, I bet you didn’t know this bombshell… and it was a move to hold Russia, China and Iran at bay.

    Good stuff as usual, WSC
     
    Raiders22
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    Posted: Aug. 15, 2014 - 11:45 AM ET #122

    Again I am okay with you guys not wanting to ever get involved in the world's affairs. Just be clear about that aspect of it. Certainly there were folks at the time who were not for each of those wars. I respect that.  I just feel we are so blessed in this country that we have a certain obligation in the world, since we have been the superpower and have the ability to help. We would do better in this aspect instead of just trying to let everyone in here in the world that needs help. It also would make it better for us long term. 9-11 just was the comparison I used because it is the closest one people know in time and relate to it is all.  All that said, I also get that we cannot be the global police. And yes the reasons and results would or could have been very dynamic. That is my point also. Glad we agree on that. Yes, I agree Iran also has been mishandled more than it would have been if Bush had been in office. Yes china and Russia are tertiary benefits. Hopefully, all of this is considered, and decided it would be more effective to go this route than to face them head on. That is a good point as well. I understand when you have a change in administrations you will have a change in gameplan along the way.  Certainly this played a part in how it unraveled. I get all of that, and agree with it.  
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    Again I am okay with you guys not wanting to ever get involved in the world's affairs. Just be clear about that aspect of it. Certainly there were folks at the time who were not for each of those wars. I respect that.  I just feel we are so blessed in this country that we have a certain obligation in the world, since we have been the superpower and have the ability to help. We would do better in this aspect instead of just trying to let everyone in here in the world that needs help. It also would make it better for us long term. 9-11 just was the comparison I used because it is the closest one people know in time and relate to it is all.  All that said, I also get that we cannot be the global police. And yes the reasons and results would or could have been very dynamic. That is my point also. Glad we agree on that. Yes, I agree Iran also has been mishandled more than it would have been if Bush had been in office. Yes china and Russia are tertiary benefits. Hopefully, all of this is considered, and decided it would be more effective to go this route than to face them head on. That is a good point as well. I understand when you have a change in administrations you will have a change in gameplan along the way.  Certainly this played a part in how it unraveled. I get all of that, and agree with it.  
     
    MoneySRH
    MoneySRH
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    Posted: Aug. 15, 2014 - 1:50 PM ET #123

    Quote Originally Posted by Raiders22:

    Again I am okay with you guys not wanting to ever get involved in the world's affairs. Just be clear about that aspect of it. Certainly there were folks at the time who were not for each of those wars. I respect that.  I just feel we are so blessed in this country that we have a certain obligation in the world, since we have been the superpower and have the ability to help. We would do better in this aspect instead of just trying to let everyone in here in the world that needs help. It also would make it better for us long term. 9-11 just was the comparison I used because it is the closest one people know in time and relate to it is all.  All that said, I also get that we cannot be the global police. And yes the reasons and results would or could have been very dynamic. That is my point also. Glad we agree on that. Yes, I agree Iran also has been mishandled more than it would have been if Bush had been in office. Yes china and Russia are tertiary benefits. Hopefully, all of this is considered, and decided it would be more effective to go this route than to face them head on. That is a good point as well. I understand when you have a change in administrations you will have a change in gameplan along the way.  Certainly this played a part in how it unraveled. I get all of that, and agree with it.  
    Damn, you are one stubborn S.O.B.
     
    Just be a man and admit what the Bush administration is guilty of was wrong. The damning evidence is overwhelming. Relativity is a theory that is considered fact. The overwhelming data supports my Iraq war theory. That makes my position a fact.

    Comparing the other wars to the Iraq war is ludicrous. The United States was forced into WW1 because of the Zimmermann Telegram. The United States was attacked by Japan to get into WW2. Iraq was a political ploy.

    Please stop comparing all the pacifists, anarchists, syndicalists, fascists and marxists of WW1 and WW2 with common sense anti-Iraq war people like myself. You can disrespect Ron Paul all you want but the man adheres to most of the principals that this country was founded upon.

    Also, stop with this obligation nonsense. That sounds good and all, it really does, but the United States was founded on isolationism.
    This country was also founded on separation of church and state.

    Read Common Sense and the Age of Reason both written by Thomas Paine. These are two facts, which right-wing fact deniers, deny.  All that right-wing BS you’ve been indoctrinated with has skewed your judgment.

    History clearly shows that Thomas Paine, George Washington, and Thomas Jefferson were all non-interventionist. No, American revolution, there is no United States of America.  “Without Thomas Paine, there is no American Revolution.” -John Adams

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raiders22:

    Again I am okay with you guys not wanting to ever get involved in the world's affairs. Just be clear about that aspect of it. Certainly there were folks at the time who were not for each of those wars. I respect that.  I just feel we are so blessed in this country that we have a certain obligation in the world, since we have been the superpower and have the ability to help. We would do better in this aspect instead of just trying to let everyone in here in the world that needs help. It also would make it better for us long term. 9-11 just was the comparison I used because it is the closest one people know in time and relate to it is all.  All that said, I also get that we cannot be the global police. And yes the reasons and results would or could have been very dynamic. That is my point also. Glad we agree on that. Yes, I agree Iran also has been mishandled more than it would have been if Bush had been in office. Yes china and Russia are tertiary benefits. Hopefully, all of this is considered, and decided it would be more effective to go this route than to face them head on. That is a good point as well. I understand when you have a change in administrations you will have a change in gameplan along the way.  Certainly this played a part in how it unraveled. I get all of that, and agree with it.  
    Damn, you are one stubborn S.O.B.
     
    Just be a man and admit what the Bush administration is guilty of was wrong. The damning evidence is overwhelming. Relativity is a theory that is considered fact. The overwhelming data supports my Iraq war theory. That makes my position a fact.

    Comparing the other wars to the Iraq war is ludicrous. The United States was forced into WW1 because of the Zimmermann Telegram. The United States was attacked by Japan to get into WW2. Iraq was a political ploy.

    Please stop comparing all the pacifists, anarchists, syndicalists, fascists and marxists of WW1 and WW2 with common sense anti-Iraq war people like myself. You can disrespect Ron Paul all you want but the man adheres to most of the principals that this country was founded upon.

    Also, stop with this obligation nonsense. That sounds good and all, it really does, but the United States was founded on isolationism.
    This country was also founded on separation of church and state.

    Read Common Sense and the Age of Reason both written by Thomas Paine. These are two facts, which right-wing fact deniers, deny.  All that right-wing BS you’ve been indoctrinated with has skewed your judgment.

    History clearly shows that Thomas Paine, George Washington, and Thomas Jefferson were all non-interventionist. No, American revolution, there is no United States of America.  “Without Thomas Paine, there is no American Revolution.” -John Adams

     
    canovsp
    canovsp
    Captain
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Dec, 2009
    Posts: 5755
    Posted: Aug. 15, 2014 - 2:12 PM ET #124

    Quote Originally Posted by MoneySRH:

    Damn, you are one stubborn S.O.B.
     
    Just be a man and admit what the Bush administration is guilty of was wrong. The damning evidence is overwhelming. Relativity is a theory that is considered fact. The overwhelming data supports my Iraq war theory. That makes my position a fact.

    Comparing the other wars to the Iraq war is ludicrous. The United States was forced into WW1 because of the Zimmermann Telegram. The United States was attacked by Japan to get into WW2. Iraq was a political ploy.

    Please stop comparing all the pacifists, anarchists, syndicalists, fascists and marxists of WW1 and WW2 with common sense anti-Iraq war people like myself. You can disrespect Ron Paul all you want but the man adheres to most of the principals that this country was founded upon.

    Also, stop with this obligation nonsense. That sounds good and all, it really does, but the United States was founded on isolationism.
    This country was also founded on separation of church and state.

    Read Common Sense and the Age of Reason both written by Thomas Paine. These are two facts, which right-wing fact deniers, deny.  All that right-wing BS you’ve been indoctrinated with has skewed your judgment.

    History clearly shows that Thomas Paine, George Washington, and Thomas Jefferson were all non-interventionist. No, American revolution, there is no United States of America.  “Without Thomas Paine, there is no American Revolution.” -John Adams



    Huh?
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoneySRH:

    Damn, you are one stubborn S.O.B.
     
    Just be a man and admit what the Bush administration is guilty of was wrong. The damning evidence is overwhelming. Relativity is a theory that is considered fact. The overwhelming data supports my Iraq war theory. That makes my position a fact.

    Comparing the other wars to the Iraq war is ludicrous. The United States was forced into WW1 because of the Zimmermann Telegram. The United States was attacked by Japan to get into WW2. Iraq was a political ploy.

    Please stop comparing all the pacifists, anarchists, syndicalists, fascists and marxists of WW1 and WW2 with common sense anti-Iraq war people like myself. You can disrespect Ron Paul all you want but the man adheres to most of the principals that this country was founded upon.

    Also, stop with this obligation nonsense. That sounds good and all, it really does, but the United States was founded on isolationism.
    This country was also founded on separation of church and state.

    Read Common Sense and the Age of Reason both written by Thomas Paine. These are two facts, which right-wing fact deniers, deny.  All that right-wing BS you’ve been indoctrinated with has skewed your judgment.

    History clearly shows that Thomas Paine, George Washington, and Thomas Jefferson were all non-interventionist. No, American revolution, there is no United States of America.  “Without Thomas Paine, there is no American Revolution.” -John Adams



    Huh?
     
     
    Raiders22
    Raiders22
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    Joined: Dec, 2010
    Posts: 33966
    Posted: Aug. 15, 2014 - 2:55 PM ET #125

    I by and large like Ron Paul.  So, don't know where you got disrespect from.  I am simply saying there are various reasons for not getting involved, not saying all reasons are the same.  I am not even saying any are bad.  It is cool that you don't think we have obligation or desire to help, no problem with that either.

    Not clear what church and state have to do with this.

    As I asked WSC---you support no war/interventions except the 4?  Is that correct?  Or no?

     I honestly cannot admit at this point what Bush administration did was wrong.  Even if I didn't agree with it I cannot say that they did it with wrong information or wrong intentions.  Again, imagine the reporter that could get that smoking gun.

    Nothing wrong with being stubborn if you feel you are right---I see you for sure feel that way.

    On this one we can continue to disagree.  We can agree on Munn, Stossel, Paul and maybe Johnson.  Coming around on him. Don't wanna keep back and forth on this guys thread.  Will catch you in next one.  

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    I by and large like Ron Paul.  So, don't know where you got disrespect from.  I am simply saying there are various reasons for not getting involved, not saying all reasons are the same.  I am not even saying any are bad.  It is cool that you don't think we have obligation or desire to help, no problem with that either.

    Not clear what church and state have to do with this.

    As I asked WSC---you support no war/interventions except the 4?  Is that correct?  Or no?

     I honestly cannot admit at this point what Bush administration did was wrong.  Even if I didn't agree with it I cannot say that they did it with wrong information or wrong intentions.  Again, imagine the reporter that could get that smoking gun.

    Nothing wrong with being stubborn if you feel you are right---I see you for sure feel that way.

    On this one we can continue to disagree.  We can agree on Munn, Stossel, Paul and maybe Johnson.  Coming around on him. Don't wanna keep back and forth on this guys thread.  Will catch you in next one.  

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