Yes, I am Attacking President Obama

   DJ.  I agree. Democracy will never work there.  Still think we had to give them a chance to try it. It never seems to work when we help remove one dictator and replace him with another dictator. Hard to imagine a worse one than SH. But you never know. 

   As for the guys after SH. I suppose we were trying to help keep things stable for a time and see if they could make democracy work. Obviously once we were committed we couldn't just bail. Then that area of the world that already hates us would say we just decided to kill a leader of a country. 

   It is so easy in hindsight to say that Iraq could never try democracy. Of course we all believe that. But imagine how wonderful if it had worked out. I mean imagine if Arab Spring deal had worked out to where some of those places had become more peaceful and stable. Even places like Egypt that have been close to stable at times has become a disaster. Of course none of them want to be like Israel and maybe that is a part of it. Just a different mindset. 

   Hard to argue with the folks that say we should just stay out of that area altogether.  Maybe future generations can learn from our mistakes there. 

Raiders, this isn't like exotic sushi. You don't 'have to try' anything when it comes to young men (and women's) lives.

This is where you listen to intelligence at State. Everyone and I mean EVERYONE knew that democracy could not happen. 

SH was pure evil and ruled with an iron fist but he also kept dangerous splinter groups from gaining power due to his brutality. Guess what it will take for these dangerous splinter groups from gaining power now? 

If your answer is another SH, you are correct. 

So American lives were cost (and would be cost) to bring the Iraqi people short term stability. 

No thanks.  

At least you aren't referring to him as the 'honorable' Bush in this thread. 

You are generally wrong and the above is no exception. 

We can invade any country and create stability with our presence and it won't be guys like you and SS dying so we can bring short term stability to the country. 

But I was not in support of removing SH because I felt the reasons we went in were not to protect our own interests or lives of our citizens..so if you invade a country it must be for those reasons alone..especially when we were the first and really only party involved.

I do feel the reason why Saddam was ticked off at Kuwait was because they were horizontal drilling into Iraq land for oil and I think he was correct in trying to stop this from happening. I dont think our first invasion was warranted and it was only done because we are slaves to OPEC and our ties to the Saudis forced us in. That is not reason enough for me to say an invasion is valid. 

The second reason we went in was also as weak. So he had some weapons, well were those weapons a DIRECT threat to our citizens or country? I say no and that is the only reason why you invade. If you want the guy out for vendetta reasons then you take him out in a covert operation. If you think he is a regional threat which could harm our friends then you assist those friends and work with them, not front an invasion as we did.

But aside from that what dj says is how I feel. I dont think we should have forced a democracy there as it will likely never work and the people are not accustomed to this type of government anyway. If we made the mess (which we did) then we have full responsibility to see it through. I dont blame Obama for wanting to remove troops, I am sure that his advisors were saying it will never get better and we are only wasting lives and money there..plus I seem to remember ending our presence was part of his platform so he was merely doing what he said at some time in the past.

I dont think there is an answer outside of putting in another SH because the religious fighting will never ever end and a tough dictator is probably the only solution that saves the most innocent lives. Its a bad option but there are no good options that I see.

I respect your support in removing SH but like you said, democracy is not going to work and there shouldn't be any surprise there. I have more problem with how the previous administration purposely misled American people or at the very least, selectively only presented its case for war. To this date, I read there are many still believe SH was responsible for 9/11 and WMDs existed but we simply couldn't find it. A great lawyer once told me, " A good, experienced prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich". 

Another issue I have is people are so vocal about the loss of 4 American lives in Benghazi(rightfully so) but the same people would find justification for the loss of thousands of our soldiers in a war we knew we weren't going to win.

And I'll add, what will happen if we do nothing? History shows another dictator will emerge from the shadows. If he promotes US interests, we will either directly or indirectly (by not helping his opposition) support him. 

Let's remember, during the Iran/Iraq War years, we supported SH. It was in our interest to do so. We supported Syria's Al Asaad until he became expendable (although where Obama has been an abysmal failure is places like Egypt and Libya where there did not appear to be any US interest in supporting the opposition). 

Your usual good post. 

I have said many times I don't believe Bush intentionally misled the people. Powell was too honorable to do that. I think Bush was really slanted by 9/11 and was so fearful of that happening again that he reacted quickly. 

But you are right about Benghazi. 

We all agree that democracy will never work there. But that can be argued in many parts of the world, past and present. A few places in Middle East have been way less radical than Iraq. So maybe they could've gone less radical if they couldn't have gone democratic. Just think once we got there it was out obligation to try to ease them into a better direction. 

I do respect someone who says we should never have gone---even if he was proven to have WMDs---because we are not world police, etc. 

sort of the situation we could be in with Iran. But maybe we can learn from this debacle.  

I actually believe Bush was misled himself. Armey and Powell attested to that.

With all due respect, so is North Korea and I hope people aren't supporting an invasion. Everyone can pay lip-service to our military but don't we have a moral duty not to put them in harms way unless absolutely necessary?

I remember the inspectors not being given free access to where they wished to go Money. Prove they had full access please. I believe an invasion wouldn't have happened if he would've proved he had nothing. 

Come on DJ   Stay on this issue.  Please don't try to swerve this to illegal immigration. 

I understand that you extremists don't like trying to defend such positions. 

So when in the history of him being a dictator did he EVER make a move against the USA?

The answer is never..

Haha!  No not like that I know people that are for both, against both, for just one or the other. 

My point is they really don't have much to do with each other.  

Mine?

No..

Bush and Bush Sr?

Yes...

You mean like the 2 non-law abiding mofo's that killed the border patrol agent this week in front of his family? 6 deportations between them, they came here to work huh? We have 1 million legal immigrants a year (isn't that enough?). I expect the laws of the land to be followed to keep scum from killing our citizens, not just enforce the laws we'd like to. I attribute it left wing extreme insanity. I guess since the story was on Fox, it really didn't happen huh DJ?

Back to my question the other day.  Do YOU have any allies worth helping?