Big Blind Special...OR...Did I play this hand like a donkey?

I don't know what it is, but when someone accuses me of making a bad play it pisses me off.  I mean I'm confident to the point of arrogance, but when someone calls me a donkey it makes me feel a fat girl who got turned down for the Saidie Hawkins dance. 

 

anyway here's the hand.....

 

5/10 limit, I'm the big blind, I have 10,8 off...there is only one caller and I check my option...flop comes J,8,6 rainbow....I check, opponent bets, I call....turn comes 2....I check, opponent bets, I call....river comes 8....I bet opponent calls...I turn over my trips and I get pushed the pot....

 

 

I play until the BB gets to me again and I get up to leave, I'm at the cage cashing in my chips and I hear the guy in the hand telling somebody how it's such bullshit when people call you all the way and then catch trips on the end.  I get my cash and go over to the table and say, look guy, I had middle pair with a good kicker...even if you had an over pair or a jack I had enough outs to call you....and I left (I really wanted to keep playing and bust his ass, but I promised my girl I would watch The Office with her)  So tell me my Covers brothers....especially NJDevils (I know we play pretty much the same table stakes) I made the right play didn't I?

You won, therefore you made the right play!!!

 

More his mistake though than your good play, he shouldve tried to get you off the pot if he had what he assumed to be a better hand... 

I'm not as strong in the limit holdem department as i am in others but one thing i know for sure is that saying you had "enough outs to call", well frankly, is a joke. Maybe if you consider more than 0 outs to be enough outs to call then, well i dont really know WHAT to tell you because that is an absurd line of thinking. The call on the flop isnt a bad play by any means, but i just dont think its worth it to call on the turn. Ive played my fair share of limit cash games and id say that on a rainbow board j862, and you are holding 810, you arent good often enough to justify a call, or for that matter, call with 5 outs, because it is not unlikely at all for someone to be holding j10.

 

Lets just start off by saying that worst case scenario he has 88, 66, doubtful jj, but still, in that case going to the river you are drawing dead. Im thinking that no amonut of pot odds can justify a call drawing dead. He also couldve had j8 in which case you are drawing dead again.

 

Another point is that by how you told the hand, i assume the small blind folds, so therefore with his limp the pot is at 12, he bets you call, pot at 22 going to turn, he bets, pot at 32, meaning you are getting 3-1 on your money, well lets think, you are an 8-1 dog (assuming he has at least jacks), and are getting 3-1 odds. That doesnt sound right to me, does it to you?

 

 

The guy did everything he could to bet him out of the pot, its limit...

 

And if winning means you made the right play, then i guess there really isnt luck in poker.

 

 

It was a loose call, but not horrible by any means.....especially if you thought he was trying to play position and you put him on a semi-bluff....but considering he limped in, I would guess that he was early to act.

 

Anyway....limit poker is a much different game than NL......anyone who would bitch and complain about losing that pot to you in a limit game in that situation is truly the donkey imo....

 

 

I would say that is correct play CincyWillie you are heads up so any pair is likely to be ahead on the flop (your opponent will miss 2 out of 3 times.) He could have been betting a straight draw and you also have 5 outs for the 2 pair. If someone folds to a bet with mid pair heads up in limit on the turn then I want to play that guy because I am getting 6-1 or so on my bluffs draw or not. If the guy is too dumb to realise this then he is the fish not you. Arguing with these wiseasses is just educating them but I know what you mean, it does make you feel uncomfortable being called a donk. Just remember the money you've made at this.

where do  you get 6-1?

I really think that jimmymo said it the best, it was a loose but not horrible call, and it was stupid to bitch about losing the small pot.

 

 Also, couldnt you have just raised the flop, if he reraises you know you are probly beat, if he calls he either has a draw, 10 better kicker, or jack (a call would indicate to slow down), or he folds then you for sure had him, just a thought.

 

I was thinking more of the river, a single bet pushing off people with busted flush draws or weaker pairs.

I appriciate the analysis I got from you guys. 

 

Spoon - You're right, I didn't really have enough outs to call if he had top/an over pair but this guy was betting flush DRAWS on the river and just making stupid bluffs so I realistically figured my 8's were good even after the turn.  Also - do you really think that betting with middle pair in limit after the flop is the smartest thing to do?  These guys will chase you down with anything and you're going to get a call realistically 85% of the time.

 

 

It really depends on how you feel for the table, if the guy was bluffing a lot then it helps your argument a lot, poker is a game of situation and the only thing you can really get from posting in this forum is the nearly textbook answer to things.

 

And to answer your question, no i dont think that betting middle pair after the flop is the smartest thing to do in limit, but if you check rasie him on the flop or turn it gives you a lot of information about what you think he might have and could induce a possible free card if you do this on the flop. Obviously now you know you would river the 8 and so youd want money in the pot but in the future the 8 wont always hit for the reassurance of the hand.

Cincy-

 

If he called and the SB folded to you (you didn't say whether he was in the SB or not) and you checked.  I likely throw a bet out there with middle pair right on the flop.

 

If he just called in middle position or something, he could be playing something such as K-Q or even 10-J....I doubt he has a pair greater then 8's (or he likely would have raised pre-flop).  I'd probably take control right after the flop and bet to try and get a feel for if my hand was good.  If he completely missed the flop, you MIGHT get rid of him (you know limit players can be calling stations).  But with K-J or J-10 or A-J, he likely raises right there on the flop and you can fold with minimal damage. 

 

You played it so passively that you never really got a chance to define his hand.  So you really never knew where you were at.

BUT, he DID bet when you checked and ALSO bet on the turn after you called the bet on the flop.  So he konws you likely have SOMETHING.  That tells me (if I'm you) that he can likely beat middle pair with a lousy kicker.  It would certainly suprise me if he had bottom pair and played the hand that way and any other hands he calls with (even something like A-8) likely has you beat.

 

The one thing you did do IMO is minimize your exposure in the hand by just check-calling. 

 

And one last minor thought:  You mention that  you left 1 orbit later.  Is it possible at all that you decided to check call that whole hand through because you kind of wanted to HOPE you had the best hand?

I've played limit before and one thing I know is I get involved in a few more pots then usual when I know I'm leaving soon.  I try not to, but I'll loosen up a bit knowing I'm leaving shorty.  It's like I want an opportunity to win another pot or two, but I won't want to put a TON of money at risk.  Playing this hand passively like you did fits (with minimal risk and an opportunity to make the best hand even if you didn't already have it) into that pattern if you ask me. 

 

 

Cincy:

You neglected to tell us how your opponent played.  You had middle pair with a decent kicker, not a good kicker.  Are you a donkey for calling this guy down with middle pair?  No.  You were calling because your gut was telling you something.  Maybe you noticed the way he had played all night, so you made the calls.  That happens quite often without the player realizing it.  You were not calling this guy down with a gutshot on incorrect odds only to get lucky on the river.  You thought you had the best hand with middle pair because your mind had noticed the way your opponent had played all night.

 

Congratulations on the pot, and don't be so worried about what other players think about you.  If he thinks you are a donkey, then when you play against him next, he will play incorrectly.

 

 to you, Cincy

 

Blue Chip-

 

I don't know how you check-call the turn AND the river when you think you have the best hand with middle pair.  If you think he has 2 overs or garbage, you have to throw out a bet IMO.  He played the hand with minimal investment which tells me he thinks it's certainly possible he doesn't have the best hand.  It's not a total donk play in my opinion, but I'm not sure you can give him credit for thinking he had the best hand when he played it as passively as humanly possible. 

 

And Cincy, I'm not busting your balls.  Just trying to further the discussion.