Funny how this topic morphs into a greatest white american of all time when we realize that the current list is not that hot... So we go back to the 1960s and 70s in hopes of trying to find the golden age where white players made a difference...
It is also funny how the larry bird argument has people idolizing him and going too far... reality hurts sometimes for people that see him as "the best all time" and then want to have a logical discussion... and no Larry would not be in the top 3 of this generation or even at the SF position... you cant start with Kobe and Lebron as being better and then a long list mid sized players (marion, prince, carmelo, peirce, mcgrady, richard jefferson, artest?) would SCHOOL Bird on defense, strength and quickness...
GOG has made some good points and I think L8kersfan has kept the thread in check with his over hyped white americans
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Funny how this topic morphs into a greatest white american of all time when we realize that the current list is not that hot... So we go back to the 1960s and 70s in hopes of trying to find the golden age where white players made a difference...
It is also funny how the larry bird argument has people idolizing him and going too far... reality hurts sometimes for people that see him as "the best all time" and then want to have a logical discussion... and no Larry would not be in the top 3 of this generation or even at the SF position... you cant start with Kobe and Lebron as being better and then a long list mid sized players (marion, prince, carmelo, peirce, mcgrady, richard jefferson, artest?) would SCHOOL Bird on defense, strength and quickness...
GOG has made some good points and I think L8kersfan has kept the thread in check with his over hyped white americans
LOL, Chris Mullin had great hands.....steals do NOT determine how good a player is on the defensive end. A great defensive player alters shots and hounds the basketball making it difficult for a team to get into its offense. Larry Legend was NOT a great defender.....neither was Charles Barkley.
If this thread was pertaining to black MLB players, you'd get the same arguments in reverse.
As a black person, I'm pulling for Kevin Love to be a very good player.....only time will tell how the T'Wolves bring him along.
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LOL, Chris Mullin had great hands.....steals do NOT determine how good a player is on the defensive end. A great defensive player alters shots and hounds the basketball making it difficult for a team to get into its offense. Larry Legend was NOT a great defender.....neither was Charles Barkley.
If this thread was pertaining to black MLB players, you'd get the same arguments in reverse.
As a black person, I'm pulling for Kevin Love to be a very good player.....only time will tell how the T'Wolves bring him along.
LOL, Chris Mullin had great hands.....steals do NOT determine how good a player is on the defensive end. A great defensive player alters shots and hounds the basketball making it difficult for a team to get into its offense. Larry Legend was NOT a greatdefender.....neither was Charles Barkley.
If this thread was pertaining to black MLB players, you'd get the same arguments in reverse.
As a black person, I'm pulling for Kevin Love to be a very good player.....only time will tell how the T'Wolves bring him along.
not sure how old you are, but I grew up learning basketball in the 80's and watching larry bird...if he wasn't a great defender, why was he always the one left guarding Dr. J, Magic, Bernard King, etc. etc....speed is not needed to be a GREAT defensive player, which he was 100%....smarts and Basketball IQ along with a hard working ethic and a big heart make up a true defensive master, which Bird was....there is not ONE aspect of the game of Basketball that Bird didn't excel at besides dunking, which he didn't need to do because we all know he had -0- physical gifts besides being tall....there will never be another that worked harder at his game then Larry, he had to, he had no natural physical talents....you ever see bird shoot pass and dribble lefty???....he did this as well as he did with his right hand because he practiced harder then anyone and wanted to win more then anyone.....passing?? forget about it he was the best on the floor every game....rebounding?? he'd grab 10+ every night because he'd outwork you even though he was very slow and couldn't jump....shooting?? probably the best shooter of all time...sorry jordan....defense?? just ask magic, probably one of the greatest ever, nobody wanted to be guarded by Bird, he'd outwork, out hustle, and out think you for 48 minutes every night.
LARRY LEGEND MY FRIENDS....
He earned that nickname for a reason...there will NEVER be another like him.
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Quote Originally Posted by MoneylineBABC:
LOL, Chris Mullin had great hands.....steals do NOT determine how good a player is on the defensive end. A great defensive player alters shots and hounds the basketball making it difficult for a team to get into its offense. Larry Legend was NOT a greatdefender.....neither was Charles Barkley.
If this thread was pertaining to black MLB players, you'd get the same arguments in reverse.
As a black person, I'm pulling for Kevin Love to be a very good player.....only time will tell how the T'Wolves bring him along.
not sure how old you are, but I grew up learning basketball in the 80's and watching larry bird...if he wasn't a great defender, why was he always the one left guarding Dr. J, Magic, Bernard King, etc. etc....speed is not needed to be a GREAT defensive player, which he was 100%....smarts and Basketball IQ along with a hard working ethic and a big heart make up a true defensive master, which Bird was....there is not ONE aspect of the game of Basketball that Bird didn't excel at besides dunking, which he didn't need to do because we all know he had -0- physical gifts besides being tall....there will never be another that worked harder at his game then Larry, he had to, he had no natural physical talents....you ever see bird shoot pass and dribble lefty???....he did this as well as he did with his right hand because he practiced harder then anyone and wanted to win more then anyone.....passing?? forget about it he was the best on the floor every game....rebounding?? he'd grab 10+ every night because he'd outwork you even though he was very slow and couldn't jump....shooting?? probably the best shooter of all time...sorry jordan....defense?? just ask magic, probably one of the greatest ever, nobody wanted to be guarded by Bird, he'd outwork, out hustle, and out think you for 48 minutes every night.
LARRY LEGEND MY FRIENDS....
He earned that nickname for a reason...there will NEVER be another like him.
CAREER AVERAGES FOR BIRD....REBOUNDS-ASSISTS-STEALS-BLOCKS-TURNOVERS-FOULS-POINTS
10.00
6.3
1.73
.84
3.14
2.50
24.3
IF YOU LOOK AT PLAYOFFS...HIS SCORING GOES DOWN SLIGHTLY TO 23.8 BUT HIS REBOUNDS, STEALS AND ASSISTS GO UP, AND HIS TURNOVERS GO DOWN.
I'D SAY A GUY GRABBING 8 DEFENSIVE BOARDS A GAME, STEALING THE BALL CLOSE TO 2 TIMES EVERY GAME AND BLOCKING A SHOT PLUS HE WAS 2ND TEAM ALL DEFENSIVE 3 TIMES COULD BE LABELED A "GOOD" DEFENDER.
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CAREER AVERAGES FOR BIRD....REBOUNDS-ASSISTS-STEALS-BLOCKS-TURNOVERS-FOULS-POINTS
10.00
6.3
1.73
.84
3.14
2.50
24.3
IF YOU LOOK AT PLAYOFFS...HIS SCORING GOES DOWN SLIGHTLY TO 23.8 BUT HIS REBOUNDS, STEALS AND ASSISTS GO UP, AND HIS TURNOVERS GO DOWN.
I'D SAY A GUY GRABBING 8 DEFENSIVE BOARDS A GAME, STEALING THE BALL CLOSE TO 2 TIMES EVERY GAME AND BLOCKING A SHOT PLUS HE WAS 2ND TEAM ALL DEFENSIVE 3 TIMES COULD BE LABELED A "GOOD" DEFENDER.
I've learned that two people can see the EXACT same thing, but come to 2 absolutely different conclusions.
Nobody's disputing his desire or intellect. But I wouldn't want him guarding me either (head-butting me trying to go for a steal).
And you can throw the numbers in the trash. Nobody played defense back when he played. Every team with 'star' appeal averaged 110ppg even with those hideous tight shorts (restraints).
Again IMHO, an elite defender has exceptional foot speed and anticipation without giving himself up. Allen Iverson has foot speed, but would rather play the passing lanes (hence not being a great defender)....same goes for Bird with virtually NO foot speed.
As for his selection to the NBA all-defensive team.........popularity contest. Any player today would go at him ALL DAY LONG.
Larry could be responsible for 55 pts (pts,rebs,ass,stls), but also get torched for 55.
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I've learned that two people can see the EXACT same thing, but come to 2 absolutely different conclusions.
Nobody's disputing his desire or intellect. But I wouldn't want him guarding me either (head-butting me trying to go for a steal).
And you can throw the numbers in the trash. Nobody played defense back when he played. Every team with 'star' appeal averaged 110ppg even with those hideous tight shorts (restraints).
Again IMHO, an elite defender has exceptional foot speed and anticipation without giving himself up. Allen Iverson has foot speed, but would rather play the passing lanes (hence not being a great defender)....same goes for Bird with virtually NO foot speed.
As for his selection to the NBA all-defensive team.........popularity contest. Any player today would go at him ALL DAY LONG.
Larry could be responsible for 55 pts (pts,rebs,ass,stls), but also get torched for 55.
ugh... i love Larry Bird but some people can't get out of the past...
if Larry Bird were in his prime playing in the NBA right now, it would be pretty clear that the speed and athleticism of the game has advanced too far for someone like him to be dominant...
no disrespect, and it takes nothing away from what he did in his time... but this is a new era, and there are too many weak areas in his game by today's standards...
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ugh... i love Larry Bird but some people can't get out of the past...
if Larry Bird were in his prime playing in the NBA right now, it would be pretty clear that the speed and athleticism of the game has advanced too far for someone like him to be dominant...
no disrespect, and it takes nothing away from what he did in his time... but this is a new era, and there are too many weak areas in his game by today's standards...
ok, so i think it's pretty easy to put together the first 3 positions of the alltime All-White Guy team...
PG... Bob Cousy
SG... Jerry West
SF... Larry Bird
so who goes in the 4 and 5 spots? McHale comes to mind at 4, but i'm finding it hard to put him on a team with 3 of the alltime greats at their positions...
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ok, so i think it's pretty easy to put together the first 3 positions of the alltime All-White Guy team...
PG... Bob Cousy
SG... Jerry West
SF... Larry Bird
so who goes in the 4 and 5 spots? McHale comes to mind at 4, but i'm finding it hard to put him on a team with 3 of the alltime greats at their positions...
if i couldn't find a suitable 4 or 5 i would be tempted to put Chris Mullin at the 2 and move West and Bird to 3 and 4, respectively... but that takes West and Bird out of their ideal positions...
still the front line could end up being relatively weak...
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if i couldn't find a suitable 4 or 5 i would be tempted to put Chris Mullin at the 2 and move West and Bird to 3 and 4, respectively... but that takes West and Bird out of their ideal positions...
still the front line could end up being relatively weak...
why is it that the people who seem to worship at the altar of Bird keep making the same stupid statement...
if i say Pau Gasol isn't one of the top 3 players in the NBA does that mean i am saying Pau Gasol can't survive in the NBA?
the gap between the top 3 players in the NBA and the top 50 players represents about 10% of the league... the gap between the top 3 players and guys who can't make a team represents 99.5% of the league...
take a fucking math class! seriously! stupidity is poisoning the world...
i'm not joking...
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why is it that the people who seem to worship at the altar of Bird keep making the same stupid statement...
if i say Pau Gasol isn't one of the top 3 players in the NBA does that mean i am saying Pau Gasol can't survive in the NBA?
the gap between the top 3 players in the NBA and the top 50 players represents about 10% of the league... the gap between the top 3 players and guys who can't make a team represents 99.5% of the league...
take a fucking math class! seriously! stupidity is poisoning the world...
ugh... i love Larry Bird but some people can't get out of the past...
if Larry Bird were in his prime playing in the NBA right now, it would be pretty clear that the speed and athleticism of the game has advanced too far for someone like him to be dominant...
no disrespect, and it takes nothing away from what he did in his time... but this is a new era, and there are too many weak areas inhis game by today's standards...
name the weak areas....besides the fact he was slow what else was a weakness in his game?? he didn't need to jump high, he was 6"9.....are you saying 20 years ago there has been a massive evolution of speed and jumping ability?? maybe so....but i'll tell you this for sure, the guys 20 years ago played A LOT SMARTERAND WITH WAY MORE HEART AND RESPECT FOR THE GAME THEN TODAYS PAMPERED CRYBABIES.
Larry played countless games on two sore knees, broken fingers, a bad back....these guys today making 100 times his contract would be on the sideline crying for their personal trainers for a fraction of the injuries he played every night through.
one thing you can't tell me is the players today are SMARTER then those guys like Bird, Magic, Kareem, etc....your stupidity doesn't see that clear fact, put your stupid math crap above that makes -0- sense in some other thread...where does Pau Gasol, who sucks FYI...come into your dumb point??.... Bird would still be dominant today, sorry buddy, slow or not, because he was a GENIOUS on the basketball court...oh, and he could shoot, rebound and pass too.....are you saying Jordan (who played with these guys in close to the same era FYI) Magic and Dr. J wouldn't be so dominant today either??? these guys in the NBA today play not even close to those guys as far as heart, smarts, class and sheer will to win....I could care less that they played in a different space in time, they were just as talented and played with more class......i'm not joking either.
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Quote Originally Posted by GoG:
ugh... i love Larry Bird but some people can't get out of the past...
if Larry Bird were in his prime playing in the NBA right now, it would be pretty clear that the speed and athleticism of the game has advanced too far for someone like him to be dominant...
no disrespect, and it takes nothing away from what he did in his time... but this is a new era, and there are too many weak areas inhis game by today's standards...
name the weak areas....besides the fact he was slow what else was a weakness in his game?? he didn't need to jump high, he was 6"9.....are you saying 20 years ago there has been a massive evolution of speed and jumping ability?? maybe so....but i'll tell you this for sure, the guys 20 years ago played A LOT SMARTERAND WITH WAY MORE HEART AND RESPECT FOR THE GAME THEN TODAYS PAMPERED CRYBABIES.
Larry played countless games on two sore knees, broken fingers, a bad back....these guys today making 100 times his contract would be on the sideline crying for their personal trainers for a fraction of the injuries he played every night through.
one thing you can't tell me is the players today are SMARTER then those guys like Bird, Magic, Kareem, etc....your stupidity doesn't see that clear fact, put your stupid math crap above that makes -0- sense in some other thread...where does Pau Gasol, who sucks FYI...come into your dumb point??.... Bird would still be dominant today, sorry buddy, slow or not, because he was a GENIOUS on the basketball court...oh, and he could shoot, rebound and pass too.....are you saying Jordan (who played with these guys in close to the same era FYI) Magic and Dr. J wouldn't be so dominant today either??? these guys in the NBA today play not even close to those guys as far as heart, smarts, class and sheer will to win....I could care less that they played in a different space in time, they were just as talented and played with more class......i'm not joking either.
Where is that goofball at these days? Did I see him riding pine for Boston? He's completely insignificant now, and just a really hard working player back in his Sac Kings days. I'd hardly put Pollard in the talented category.......
Korver probably would who I'd want on my team over all mentioned above........but Dunleavy Jr is just playing his ass off, too.....
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Quote Originally Posted by kingtrentw:
SCOTT POLLARD
Where is that goofball at these days? Did I see him riding pine for Boston? He's completely insignificant now, and just a really hard working player back in his Sac Kings days. I'd hardly put Pollard in the talented category.......
Korver probably would who I'd want on my team over all mentioned above........but Dunleavy Jr is just playing his ass off, too.....
you make a good point... In Portland there was this huge "draft the stach" campaign and when they did not draft morrison every boooed... Portland of course wanted a pacific NW (gonzaga) white player that they could cheer for and get behind...
They of course passed on morrison and instead took all star brandon roy... This is a great example like you were talking about how overhyped reddick and morrison were... Love comes in with alot of question marks... some of which is also probably because he is come in after only playing on season in college while morrison and reddick played beyond that and made more contributions to their team...
Logans, I agree with you about morrison... I think that he did fine in the west coast conference against st marys and santa clara, which is typical of american born white players who look really good in college or high school and then get of hyped with dreams of next "great white hope"...
How could Portland have drafted Morrison when he went #3 in the draft and they had the 4th pick? And to think that the kid isn't good because he played in the WCC is as ignorant as the guys recruiting college basketball players. It took UCLA (eventual 2006 NCAA runner ups), with 4 and soon to be 5 future NBA players, everything it had to overcome a 10 point lead in the final 5 minutes to knock his "weak" WCC team out of the tourney. The kid makes everyone around him better, he will succeed at this level and he will change your outlook.
It seems like you are in the majority who believe athleticism is more import than fundamentals. That's where you and many others seem to be mistaken. I don't care how much quicker or how much higher you can jump if you can't shoot, dribble or most importantly pass the ball. The sooner more NBA GM's figure this out the sooner we will enjoy good basketball. Like college. Which has its share of Cinderella stories every year and believe me its no fluke...it's called FUNDAMENTALS!
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Quote Originally Posted by dl36:
robbie,
you make a good point... In Portland there was this huge "draft the stach" campaign and when they did not draft morrison every boooed... Portland of course wanted a pacific NW (gonzaga) white player that they could cheer for and get behind...
They of course passed on morrison and instead took all star brandon roy... This is a great example like you were talking about how overhyped reddick and morrison were... Love comes in with alot of question marks... some of which is also probably because he is come in after only playing on season in college while morrison and reddick played beyond that and made more contributions to their team...
Logans, I agree with you about morrison... I think that he did fine in the west coast conference against st marys and santa clara, which is typical of american born white players who look really good in college or high school and then get of hyped with dreams of next "great white hope"...
How could Portland have drafted Morrison when he went #3 in the draft and they had the 4th pick? And to think that the kid isn't good because he played in the WCC is as ignorant as the guys recruiting college basketball players. It took UCLA (eventual 2006 NCAA runner ups), with 4 and soon to be 5 future NBA players, everything it had to overcome a 10 point lead in the final 5 minutes to knock his "weak" WCC team out of the tourney. The kid makes everyone around him better, he will succeed at this level and he will change your outlook.
It seems like you are in the majority who believe athleticism is more import than fundamentals. That's where you and many others seem to be mistaken. I don't care how much quicker or how much higher you can jump if you can't shoot, dribble or most importantly pass the ball. The sooner more NBA GM's figure this out the sooner we will enjoy good basketball. Like college. Which has its share of Cinderella stories every year and believe me its no fluke...it's called FUNDAMENTALS!
How could Portland have drafted Morrison when he went #3 in the draft and they had the 4th pick? And to think that the kid isn't good because he played in the WCC is as ignorant as the guys recruiting college basketball players. It took UCLA (eventual 2006 NCAA runner ups), with 4 and soon to be 5 future NBA players, everything it had to overcome a 10 point lead in the final 5 minutes to knock his "weak" WCC team out of the tourney. The kid makes everyone around him better, he will succeed at this level and he will change your outlook.
It seems like you are in the majority who believe athleticism is more import than fundamentals. That's where you and many others seem to be mistaken. I don't care how much quicker or how much higher you can jump if you can't shoot, dribble or most importantly pass the ball. The sooner more NBA GM's figure this out the sooner we will enjoy good basketball. Like college. Which has its share of Cinderella stories every year and believe me its no fluke...it's called FUNDAMENTALS!
I agree on the fundamentals argument....when morrison came out of college I honestly thought he'd be rookie of the year...he can shoot, go to the hoop, pass and he's pretty tall...he also plays the game with a lot of heart and intensity...I was surprised to see that when he was healthy with charlotte he played awful...taking a ton of shots and shooting a very low shooting percentage...he moved his way further and further down the bench on a terrible squad....then he was injured...I still think there is hope for him when he gets healthy, we'll have to wait and see.
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Quote Originally Posted by PipeDream:
How could Portland have drafted Morrison when he went #3 in the draft and they had the 4th pick? And to think that the kid isn't good because he played in the WCC is as ignorant as the guys recruiting college basketball players. It took UCLA (eventual 2006 NCAA runner ups), with 4 and soon to be 5 future NBA players, everything it had to overcome a 10 point lead in the final 5 minutes to knock his "weak" WCC team out of the tourney. The kid makes everyone around him better, he will succeed at this level and he will change your outlook.
It seems like you are in the majority who believe athleticism is more import than fundamentals. That's where you and many others seem to be mistaken. I don't care how much quicker or how much higher you can jump if you can't shoot, dribble or most importantly pass the ball. The sooner more NBA GM's figure this out the sooner we will enjoy good basketball. Like college. Which has its share of Cinderella stories every year and believe me its no fluke...it's called FUNDAMENTALS!
I agree on the fundamentals argument....when morrison came out of college I honestly thought he'd be rookie of the year...he can shoot, go to the hoop, pass and he's pretty tall...he also plays the game with a lot of heart and intensity...I was surprised to see that when he was healthy with charlotte he played awful...taking a ton of shots and shooting a very low shooting percentage...he moved his way further and further down the bench on a terrible squad....then he was injured...I still think there is hope for him when he gets healthy, we'll have to wait and see.
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