The Pima County Regional SWAT team fired 71 shots in seven seconds at a Tucson man they say pointed a gun at officers serving a search warrant at his home.
Jose Guerena, 26, a former Marine who served in Iraq twice, was holding an AR-15 rifle when he was killed, but he never fired a shot, the Sheriff's Department said Monday after initially saying he had fired on officers during last week's raid.
The Pima County Regional SWAT team fired 71 shots in seven seconds at a Tucson man they say pointed a gun at officers serving a search warrant at his home.
Jose Guerena, 26, a former Marine who served in Iraq twice, was holding an AR-15 rifle when he was killed, but he never fired a shot, the Sheriff's Department said Monday after initially saying he had fired on officers during last week's raid.
Maybe he should've put the gun down if the SWAT team was at his house??
Sounds like a "dumb" Marine to me. I'm sure they weren't there to serve a search warrant for no reason...
I dont think any of you people who haven't been in the sandbox for multiple tours of hell and adrenaline can comprehend what real PTSD does to a soldier when back home. Think I'll give the man the benefit of the doubt regarding holding his weapon when threatened. We are going to see lots of cases that are sad as all get out. Maybe he's an idiot, but he's also just a kid who's been in a war and thats a tough scene to process even for the best of us.
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Quote Originally Posted by captaincredit:
Maybe he should've put the gun down if the SWAT team was at his house??
Sounds like a "dumb" Marine to me. I'm sure they weren't there to serve a search warrant for no reason...
I dont think any of you people who haven't been in the sandbox for multiple tours of hell and adrenaline can comprehend what real PTSD does to a soldier when back home. Think I'll give the man the benefit of the doubt regarding holding his weapon when threatened. We are going to see lots of cases that are sad as all get out. Maybe he's an idiot, but he's also just a kid who's been in a war and thats a tough scene to process even for the best of us.
Did you even read the article? It appears you just formulated an opinion out of your ass.
And I do apologize for getting the counties mixed up.
Where is the poster shootupdaclub? This would go well with his "Another pig out of control" thread.
drJ
Yea but the article said that Police pulled up with sirens blazing. He clearly knew they were cops and I'm sure that gave him ample time to put his gun down before they came to the door. It's a sad situation that he was a Marine and while he may have been suffering from PTSD, he still should have the presence of mind to realize these guys are on his side. The back story would help of what was seized and why he was implicated in a crime. The SWAT team was completely justified in what they did.
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Quote Originally Posted by kickinA:
Did you even read the article? It appears you just formulated an opinion out of your ass.
And I do apologize for getting the counties mixed up.
Where is the poster shootupdaclub? This would go well with his "Another pig out of control" thread.
drJ
Yea but the article said that Police pulled up with sirens blazing. He clearly knew they were cops and I'm sure that gave him ample time to put his gun down before they came to the door. It's a sad situation that he was a Marine and while he may have been suffering from PTSD, he still should have the presence of mind to realize these guys are on his side. The back story would help of what was seized and why he was implicated in a crime. The SWAT team was completely justified in what they did.
Did you even read the article? It appears you just formulated an opinion out of your ass.
And I do apologize for getting the counties mixed up.
Where is the poster shootupdaclub? This would go well with his "Another pig out of control" thread.
drJ
I did read the article, thank you, & my opinion is not from my ass. I appreciate the fact that the guy served as a Marine & defended our country. If he did have severe PTSD, maybe someone should've got him some help or taken away his weapons. He was obviously not mentally stable enough to have enough smarts to put down his gun when LAW ENFORCEMENT showed up serving a search warrant. If I was a cop & told him to drop his weapon & he didn't, I wouldn't think twice about lighting him up. Put yourself in those guys shoes.
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Quote Originally Posted by kickinA:
Did you even read the article? It appears you just formulated an opinion out of your ass.
And I do apologize for getting the counties mixed up.
Where is the poster shootupdaclub? This would go well with his "Another pig out of control" thread.
drJ
I did read the article, thank you, & my opinion is not from my ass. I appreciate the fact that the guy served as a Marine & defended our country. If he did have severe PTSD, maybe someone should've got him some help or taken away his weapons. He was obviously not mentally stable enough to have enough smarts to put down his gun when LAW ENFORCEMENT showed up serving a search warrant. If I was a cop & told him to drop his weapon & he didn't, I wouldn't think twice about lighting him up. Put yourself in those guys shoes.
i usually agree with most of your threads shooter, but this one is pretty cut and dry
you have the SWAT team coming up to the house, most likely letting it be known they are out there to serve a warrant (as they are supposed to....this isnt a covert operation)
this isnt a case of SWAT barging into the house unexpected and unknowingly to the marine, he obviously knew what was going on, but probably due to his possible PTSD he may have thought it was a setup or it wasnt actually the SWAT....either way it is a shame the team shot when they technically did not have to, although you have to think of it through the SWAT team's mind - Man holds a AR-15, most likely loaded, to their faces - SWAT team reacts by shooting him down before he can possibly shoot THEM down
is it unfortunate? yes...could it have been prevented if the man simply had the presence of mind to NOT point a gun at a SWAT team of all thing to point a gun to....
i am sure there are much more details, but this is just my observation and POV
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i usually agree with most of your threads shooter, but this one is pretty cut and dry
you have the SWAT team coming up to the house, most likely letting it be known they are out there to serve a warrant (as they are supposed to....this isnt a covert operation)
this isnt a case of SWAT barging into the house unexpected and unknowingly to the marine, he obviously knew what was going on, but probably due to his possible PTSD he may have thought it was a setup or it wasnt actually the SWAT....either way it is a shame the team shot when they technically did not have to, although you have to think of it through the SWAT team's mind - Man holds a AR-15, most likely loaded, to their faces - SWAT team reacts by shooting him down before he can possibly shoot THEM down
is it unfortunate? yes...could it have been prevented if the man simply had the presence of mind to NOT point a gun at a SWAT team of all thing to point a gun to....
i am sure there are much more details, but this is just my observation and POV
did YOU read the article? he knew they were cops and still held his gun pointing at them.
It's a case of he said/ she said depending on whose point of view you take. As a military man, I'm all for law enforcement, but this case just doesn't quite add up imo.
This is according to the police statement.
"but he never fired a shot, the Sheriff's Department said Monday after initially saying he had fired on officers during last week's raid."
That right there speaks volume toward a possible police cover up imo. Either way, it's a tragedy. Let the investigation fall where they may.
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Quote Originally Posted by GetPaid25:
did YOU read the article? he knew they were cops and still held his gun pointing at them.
It's a case of he said/ she said depending on whose point of view you take. As a military man, I'm all for law enforcement, but this case just doesn't quite add up imo.
This is according to the police statement.
"but he never fired a shot, the Sheriff's Department said Monday after initially saying he had fired on officers during last week's raid."
That right there speaks volume toward a possible police cover up imo. Either way, it's a tragedy. Let the investigation fall where they may.
It's a case of he said/ she said depending on whose point of view you take. As a military man, I'm all for law enforcement, but this case just doesn't quite add up imo.
This is according to the police statement.
"but he never fired a shot, the Sheriff's Department said Monday after initially saying he had fired on officers during last week's raid."
That right there speaks volume toward a possible police cover up imo. Either way, it's a tragedy. Let the investigation fall where they may.
should of never picked up his weapon knowing that the pigs were coming in. He asked for what was coming to him
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Quote Originally Posted by kickinA:
It's a case of he said/ she said depending on whose point of view you take. As a military man, I'm all for law enforcement, but this case just doesn't quite add up imo.
This is according to the police statement.
"but he never fired a shot, the Sheriff's Department said Monday after initially saying he had fired on officers during last week's raid."
That right there speaks volume toward a possible police cover up imo. Either way, it's a tragedy. Let the investigation fall where they may.
should of never picked up his weapon knowing that the pigs were coming in. He asked for what was coming to him
i usually agree with most of your threads shooter, but this one is pretty cut and dry
you have the SWAT team coming up to the house, most likely letting it be known they are out there to serve a warrant (as they are supposed to....this isnt a covert operation)
this isnt a case of SWAT barging into the house unexpected and unknowingly to the marine, he obviously knew what was going on, but probably due to his possible PTSD he may have thought it was a setup or it wasnt actually the SWAT....either way it is a shame the team shot when they technically did not have to, although you have to think of it through the SWAT team's mind - Man holds a AR-15, most likely loaded, to their faces - SWAT team reacts by shooting him down before he can possibly shoot THEM down
is it unfortunate? yes...could it have been prevented if the man simply had the presence of mind to NOT point a gun at a SWAT team of all thing to point a gun to....
i am sure there are much more details, but this is just my observation and POV
Cut and dry? SWAT breaks into a man’s house and before they announce themselves as police they fire 71 shots killing a US Marine they thought fired his gun at them but it turns out he didn’t?
I have read far too many court cases and articles to share your faith in law enforcement.
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Quote Originally Posted by 2ToN:
i usually agree with most of your threads shooter, but this one is pretty cut and dry
you have the SWAT team coming up to the house, most likely letting it be known they are out there to serve a warrant (as they are supposed to....this isnt a covert operation)
this isnt a case of SWAT barging into the house unexpected and unknowingly to the marine, he obviously knew what was going on, but probably due to his possible PTSD he may have thought it was a setup or it wasnt actually the SWAT....either way it is a shame the team shot when they technically did not have to, although you have to think of it through the SWAT team's mind - Man holds a AR-15, most likely loaded, to their faces - SWAT team reacts by shooting him down before he can possibly shoot THEM down
is it unfortunate? yes...could it have been prevented if the man simply had the presence of mind to NOT point a gun at a SWAT team of all thing to point a gun to....
i am sure there are much more details, but this is just my observation and POV
Cut and dry? SWAT breaks into a man’s house and before they announce themselves as police they fire 71 shots killing a US Marine they thought fired his gun at them but it turns out he didn’t?
I have read far too many court cases and articles to share your faith in law enforcement.
Cut and dry? SWAT breaks into a man’s house and before they announce themselves as police they fire 71 shots killing a US Marine they thought fired his gun at them but it turns out he didn’t?
I have read far too many court cases and articles to share your faith in law enforcement.
agree with your sentiments towards law enforcement, but if the family and the police both claim that the marine indeed did point a gun at the team, then well what can you say to defend that? the only conclusion for the marine to point the gun is that the SWAT came in unannounced and he got scared and immediately got the gun out...which is very plausible
however, in this case i am more inclined to believe the police....no real reason on why i feel that way but i do understand why you and many others would feel the other way around and feel like they are hiding something
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Quote Originally Posted by StraightShooter:
Cut and dry? SWAT breaks into a man’s house and before they announce themselves as police they fire 71 shots killing a US Marine they thought fired his gun at them but it turns out he didn’t?
I have read far too many court cases and articles to share your faith in law enforcement.
agree with your sentiments towards law enforcement, but if the family and the police both claim that the marine indeed did point a gun at the team, then well what can you say to defend that? the only conclusion for the marine to point the gun is that the SWAT came in unannounced and he got scared and immediately got the gun out...which is very plausible
however, in this case i am more inclined to believe the police....no real reason on why i feel that way but i do understand why you and many others would feel the other way around and feel like they are hiding something
should of never picked up his weapon knowing that the pigs were coming in. He asked for what was coming to him
Nowhere did it say that he knew they were SWAT. (See SS's posts) Since Tucson is notorious for home invasion, it would be normal for a homeowner to pick up a weapon, don't you think?
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Quote Originally Posted by GetPaid25:
should of never picked up his weapon knowing that the pigs were coming in. He asked for what was coming to him
Nowhere did it say that he knew they were SWAT. (See SS's posts) Since Tucson is notorious for home invasion, it would be normal for a homeowner to pick up a weapon, don't you think?
kickinA - Was the SWAT team supposed to let him fire off a few rounds at them 1st before they retaliate?? C'mon man, there's no way in hell you would wait for someone to shoot at you 1st. Get real.
For the record, this story sucks & I'm sorry the guy died & left a family without a Father behind. Common sense could've easily prevailed here & avoided a senseless death. That is my only point.
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kickinA - Was the SWAT team supposed to let him fire off a few rounds at them 1st before they retaliate?? C'mon man, there's no way in hell you would wait for someone to shoot at you 1st. Get real.
For the record, this story sucks & I'm sorry the guy died & left a family without a Father behind. Common sense could've easily prevailed here & avoided a senseless death. That is my only point.
kickinA - Was the SWAT team supposed to let him fire off a few rounds at them 1st before they retaliate?? C'mon man, there's no way in hell you would wait for someone to shoot at you 1st. Get real.
That's not according to our ROE that we all had to put up with when I was in Iraq.
For the record, this story sucks & I'm sorry the guy died & left a family without a Father behind. Common sense could've easily prevailed here & avoided a senseless death. That is my only point.
Story does suck, no doubt. All I'm saying is look at how quickly the police is changing their story. FWIW, the safety on the AR-15 was still on. SWAT opened fire first when, " A deputy's bullet struck the side of the doorway, causing chips of wood to fall on his shield. That prompted some members of the team to think the deputy had been shot, O'Connor said."
He reacted like all of us did in Iraq when faced with possible threats - getting himself in the ready position. In this case, his wife woke up him thinking robbers were trying to break in, as SWAT didn't announce themselves.
Anyone that's ever attended or familiar with any gun safety regulations will tell you, what the marine did was in accordance.
Complete tragedy. I do sense a botched SWAT operation that contributed to this needless killing.
Semper Fi
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Quote Originally Posted by captaincredit:
kickinA - Was the SWAT team supposed to let him fire off a few rounds at them 1st before they retaliate?? C'mon man, there's no way in hell you would wait for someone to shoot at you 1st. Get real.
That's not according to our ROE that we all had to put up with when I was in Iraq.
For the record, this story sucks & I'm sorry the guy died & left a family without a Father behind. Common sense could've easily prevailed here & avoided a senseless death. That is my only point.
Story does suck, no doubt. All I'm saying is look at how quickly the police is changing their story. FWIW, the safety on the AR-15 was still on. SWAT opened fire first when, " A deputy's bullet struck the side of the doorway, causing chips of wood to fall on his shield. That prompted some members of the team to think the deputy had been shot, O'Connor said."
He reacted like all of us did in Iraq when faced with possible threats - getting himself in the ready position. In this case, his wife woke up him thinking robbers were trying to break in, as SWAT didn't announce themselves.
Anyone that's ever attended or familiar with any gun safety regulations will tell you, what the marine did was in accordance.
Complete tragedy. I do sense a botched SWAT operation that contributed to this needless killing.
Nowhere did it say that he knew they were SWAT. (See SS's posts) Since Tucson is notorious for home invasion, it would be normal for a homeowner to pick up a weapon, don't you think?
The department says SWAT members were clear when identifying themselves while entering the home."
come on dude, get serious here. If the dude seen that this wasnt a "home invasion" by maybe looking at their uniform, if he was smart, he would of dropped his weapon and surrendered. Were the swat team suppose to wait and take this shit slowly so one of their men gets shot/killed? and who cares what your ROE was when you were in Iraq.. This is not Iraq and shit rolls different here.
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Quote Originally Posted by kickinA:
Nowhere did it say that he knew they were SWAT. (See SS's posts) Since Tucson is notorious for home invasion, it would be normal for a homeowner to pick up a weapon, don't you think?
The department says SWAT members were clear when identifying themselves while entering the home."
come on dude, get serious here. If the dude seen that this wasnt a "home invasion" by maybe looking at their uniform, if he was smart, he would of dropped his weapon and surrendered. Were the swat team suppose to wait and take this shit slowly so one of their men gets shot/killed? and who cares what your ROE was when you were in Iraq.. This is not Iraq and shit rolls different here.
The department says SWAT members were clear when identifying themselves while entering the home."
come on dude, get serious here. If the dude seen that this wasnt a "home invasion" by maybe looking at their uniform, if he was smart, he would of dropped his weapon and surrendered. Were the swat team suppose to wait and take this shit slowly so one of their men gets shot/killed? and who cares what your ROE was when you were in Iraq.. This is not Iraq and shit rolls different here.
It's pretty obvious that you'll believe whatever the police tells you. Like I said, it's a case of he said/ she said. Let the investigation play itself out. In the meantime, how come the police are suddenly defensive with their story?
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Quote Originally Posted by GetPaid25:
The department says SWAT members were clear when identifying themselves while entering the home."
come on dude, get serious here. If the dude seen that this wasnt a "home invasion" by maybe looking at their uniform, if he was smart, he would of dropped his weapon and surrendered. Were the swat team suppose to wait and take this shit slowly so one of their men gets shot/killed? and who cares what your ROE was when you were in Iraq.. This is not Iraq and shit rolls different here.
It's pretty obvious that you'll believe whatever the police tells you. Like I said, it's a case of he said/ she said. Let the investigation play itself out. In the meantime, how come the police are suddenly defensive with their story?
those of you blanketly defending the police are utterly clueless about how some units behave. most are fine, others not professional at all in some respects. the units in pima have run in to some very bad narco gangs without souls and very well funded/armed. their aggressiveness is understandable.
however
waco
ruby ridge
thousands of others.
our laws are so many and varied that nearly everyone is guilty of something that could warrant a home invasion.
i for one will unquestionably die but will not be as disciplined not to shoot, wont be able to help myself if they dont clearly identify who they are as was the case here.
narcotics trafficking is why he was being targeted i assume but was he part of it in any fashion??
theres 2 ways this pans out
1)wrong man...lawsuit...payoff
2)right man...end of story due to threatening gesture.
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those of you blanketly defending the police are utterly clueless about how some units behave. most are fine, others not professional at all in some respects. the units in pima have run in to some very bad narco gangs without souls and very well funded/armed. their aggressiveness is understandable.
however
waco
ruby ridge
thousands of others.
our laws are so many and varied that nearly everyone is guilty of something that could warrant a home invasion.
i for one will unquestionably die but will not be as disciplined not to shoot, wont be able to help myself if they dont clearly identify who they are as was the case here.
narcotics trafficking is why he was being targeted i assume but was he part of it in any fashion??
theres 2 ways this pans out
1)wrong man...lawsuit...payoff
2)right man...end of story due to threatening gesture.
1. The Marine was in trouble for something, or SWAT wouldn't be there in the 1st place.
2. Seems almost impossible that the fallen soldier didn't realize it wasn't a home invasion. He had enough time to get his wife & kids in the closet in another room before he posted up with his weapon.
3. I'd be willing to bet he was offered the opportunity to "come out with his hands up", before they busted in & saw him pointing his weapon at them.
4. The police/SWAT may have been in the wrong. I don't know the protocol, but I'm guessing it's ok to shoot someone, already a suspect, who is pointing a weapon at you.
5. Had the Marine complied, or not been doing something wrong in the 1st place, none of this would've ever occurred.
6. If the story is factual in it's content, it seems undebatable (to me) that anyone of us would've taken him out, Marine or not.
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Ok, a few key points.
1. The Marine was in trouble for something, or SWAT wouldn't be there in the 1st place.
2. Seems almost impossible that the fallen soldier didn't realize it wasn't a home invasion. He had enough time to get his wife & kids in the closet in another room before he posted up with his weapon.
3. I'd be willing to bet he was offered the opportunity to "come out with his hands up", before they busted in & saw him pointing his weapon at them.
4. The police/SWAT may have been in the wrong. I don't know the protocol, but I'm guessing it's ok to shoot someone, already a suspect, who is pointing a weapon at you.
5. Had the Marine complied, or not been doing something wrong in the 1st place, none of this would've ever occurred.
6. If the story is factual in it's content, it seems undebatable (to me) that anyone of us would've taken him out, Marine or not.
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