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All Forums | General Discussion

If Christ died on the cross for all of humanity

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Joined: Feb, 2009
Posts: 27785
Posted: Dec. 21, 2011 - 12:27 AM ET #2551

Quote Originally Posted by SYSTEM:


you tell me, and we're not just talking about murder. why do you insist on just focusing on murder?

I like how you have nothing to say about the other immoral examples I posted that come from christian groups

Name me one immoral thing Christ said to do....Just one.

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Quote Originally Posted by SYSTEM:


you tell me, and we're not just talking about murder. why do you insist on just focusing on murder?

I like how you have nothing to say about the other immoral examples I posted that come from christian groups

Name me one immoral thing Christ said to do....Just one.

 
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Posted: Dec. 21, 2011 - 12:27 AM ET #2552

https://www.montrealgazette.com/technology/Turin+Shroud+could+have+been+faked+scientists/5883796/story.html

Intersting, this is the latest studies

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https://www.montrealgazette.com/technology/Turin+Shroud+could+have+been+faked+scientists/5883796/story.html

Intersting, this is the latest studies

 
SirJohnDrake
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Posted: Dec. 21, 2011 - 12:34 AM ET #2553

Quote Originally Posted by Mikniks:


No one is saying people kill because Christ said to, but people kill IN THE NAME of religion.  We're not talking specifically about christianity.  People kill other people FOR their religion.

EXAMPLE: "You believe in something else, so I'll kill you." (Muslims)

EXAMPLE #2: "Believe what I believe, or I'll kill you." (Crusades)

These are just two examples.  We're not saying Christ says to kill because he doesn't, but people kill IN THE NAME of their own religion.

Yes, I can agree with what you're saying. But a whole lot of people also kill who don't claim any affiliation with any religious group.

So what is your point?

Look, the bottom line is that all people who ever lived, with the exception of our Lord Savior Jesus Christ, and people who are currently living right now are sinners. Some sinners are murderers, some are thieves, some are liars....etc.

Can you agree with me?

So my point would be it just doesn't matter if there is religion or no religion, there will be some sinners who will be murderers.

(I'm making my point just in case you are trying to make a point that the world would be better off without any religion)

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Quote Originally Posted by Mikniks:


No one is saying people kill because Christ said to, but people kill IN THE NAME of religion.  We're not talking specifically about christianity.  People kill other people FOR their religion.

EXAMPLE: "You believe in something else, so I'll kill you." (Muslims)

EXAMPLE #2: "Believe what I believe, or I'll kill you." (Crusades)

These are just two examples.  We're not saying Christ says to kill because he doesn't, but people kill IN THE NAME of their own religion.

Yes, I can agree with what you're saying. But a whole lot of people also kill who don't claim any affiliation with any religious group.

So what is your point?

Look, the bottom line is that all people who ever lived, with the exception of our Lord Savior Jesus Christ, and people who are currently living right now are sinners. Some sinners are murderers, some are thieves, some are liars....etc.

Can you agree with me?

So my point would be it just doesn't matter if there is religion or no religion, there will be some sinners who will be murderers.

(I'm making my point just in case you are trying to make a point that the world would be better off without any religion)

 
Rostos
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Posted: Dec. 21, 2011 - 12:42 AM ET #2554

Quote Originally Posted by SirJohnDrake:

Yes, I can agree with what you're saying. But a whole lot of people also kill who don't claim any affiliation with any religious group.

So what is your point?

Look, the bottom line is that all people who ever lived, with the exception of our Lord Savior Jesus Christ, and people who are currently living right now are sinners. Some sinners are murderers, some are thieves, some are liars....etc.

Can you agree with me?

So my point would be it just doesn't matter if there is religion or no religion, there will be some sinners who will be murderers.

(I'm making my point just in case you are trying to make a point that the world would be better off without any religion)

You cant use religion as an excuse for peoples irrationality, which is what they are doing, they are buying it....

If i went and murdered someone because of a sea gul, is it the sea guls fault or is it because my i am messed up?

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Quote Originally Posted by SirJohnDrake:

Yes, I can agree with what you're saying. But a whole lot of people also kill who don't claim any affiliation with any religious group.

So what is your point?

Look, the bottom line is that all people who ever lived, with the exception of our Lord Savior Jesus Christ, and people who are currently living right now are sinners. Some sinners are murderers, some are thieves, some are liars....etc.

Can you agree with me?

So my point would be it just doesn't matter if there is religion or no religion, there will be some sinners who will be murderers.

(I'm making my point just in case you are trying to make a point that the world would be better off without any religion)

You cant use religion as an excuse for peoples irrationality, which is what they are doing, they are buying it....

If i went and murdered someone because of a sea gul, is it the sea guls fault or is it because my i am messed up?

 
SYSTEM
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Posted: Dec. 21, 2011 - 12:50 AM ET #2555

Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

Name me one immoral thing Christ said to do....Just one.


since you won't answer the question, I'll answer it for you...these people get these ideas from the bible 

i believe christ and god are one in the same
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Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

Name me one immoral thing Christ said to do....Just one.


since you won't answer the question, I'll answer it for you...these people get these ideas from the bible 

i believe christ and god are one in the same
 
SYSTEM
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Posted: Dec. 21, 2011 - 12:52 AM ET #2556

Quote Originally Posted by SYSTEM:


since you won't answer the question, I'll answer it for you...these people get these ideas from the bible 

i believe christ and god are one in the same

let me rephrase that, according to the story, christ and god are the same...
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Quote Originally Posted by SYSTEM:


since you won't answer the question, I'll answer it for you...these people get these ideas from the bible 

i believe christ and god are one in the same

let me rephrase that, according to the story, christ and god are the same...
 
Rostos
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Posted: Dec. 21, 2011 - 12:57 AM ET #2557

Quote Originally Posted by SYSTEM:


since you won't answer the question, I'll answer it for you...these people get these ideas from the bible 

i believe christ and god are one in the same

Yes, correct, so these people are claiming that God told them to commit atorcities?

The OT states that God commanded to kill the caanaties, the reason we are told is because the caanaties were one of the most immoral people in the history of humanity. We udnerstand that God is passing his judgement on these people, no different to a natural disaster.

This was done BEFORE the coming of the messiah - Christ. Since Christ, we follow Christ.

Furthermore, why havent i or 99.99% of Christians gone around killing because of the OT?

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Quote Originally Posted by SYSTEM:


since you won't answer the question, I'll answer it for you...these people get these ideas from the bible 

i believe christ and god are one in the same

Yes, correct, so these people are claiming that God told them to commit atorcities?

The OT states that God commanded to kill the caanaties, the reason we are told is because the caanaties were one of the most immoral people in the history of humanity. We udnerstand that God is passing his judgement on these people, no different to a natural disaster.

This was done BEFORE the coming of the messiah - Christ. Since Christ, we follow Christ.

Furthermore, why havent i or 99.99% of Christians gone around killing because of the OT?

 
SYSTEM
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Posted: Dec. 21, 2011 - 1:02 AM ET #2558

Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

Yes, correct, so these people are claiming that God told them to commit atorcities?

The OT states that God commanded to kill the caanaties, the reason we are told is because the caanaties were one of the most immoral people in the history of humanity. We udnerstand that God is passing his judgement on these people, no different to a natural disaster.

This was done BEFORE the coming of the messiah - Christ. Since Christ, we follow Christ.

Furthermore, why havent i or 99.99% of Christians gone around killing because of the OT?


again, WE ARE NOT JUST TALKING ABOUT KILLING...

where are you getting your numbers?
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Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

Yes, correct, so these people are claiming that God told them to commit atorcities?

The OT states that God commanded to kill the caanaties, the reason we are told is because the caanaties were one of the most immoral people in the history of humanity. We udnerstand that God is passing his judgement on these people, no different to a natural disaster.

This was done BEFORE the coming of the messiah - Christ. Since Christ, we follow Christ.

Furthermore, why havent i or 99.99% of Christians gone around killing because of the OT?


again, WE ARE NOT JUST TALKING ABOUT KILLING...

where are you getting your numbers?
 
SirJohnDrake
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Posted: Dec. 21, 2011 - 1:06 AM ET #2559

Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

You cant use religion as an excuse for peoples irrationality, which is what they are doing, they are buying it....

If i went and murdered someone because of a sea gul, is it the sea guls fault or is it because my i am messed up?

You know you and I got to keep these guys in line...lol and you know as well as I do it is not hard at all...lol

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Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

You cant use religion as an excuse for peoples irrationality, which is what they are doing, they are buying it....

If i went and murdered someone because of a sea gul, is it the sea guls fault or is it because my i am messed up?

You know you and I got to keep these guys in line...lol and you know as well as I do it is not hard at all...lol

 
Rostos
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Posted: Dec. 21, 2011 - 1:14 AM ET #2560

Quote Originally Posted by SYSTEM:


again, WE ARE NOT JUST TALKING ABOUT KILLING...
 
What else are we talking about?
 

where are you getting your numbers?
 
I dont know any Christian myself or actually havent heard any Christian go around murder people because God told them to. Dont bring Islam into this.
 
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Quote Originally Posted by SYSTEM:


again, WE ARE NOT JUST TALKING ABOUT KILLING...
 
What else are we talking about?
 

where are you getting your numbers?
 
I dont know any Christian myself or actually havent heard any Christian go around murder people because God told them to. Dont bring Islam into this.
 
 
KittyKatz286
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Posted: Dec. 21, 2011 - 1:16 AM ET #2561

Just watched the special on the universe on h2. Truly incredible stuff. I'm optimistic that before I die we will be able to disprove god as the creator of this universe. And although that doesn't rule one out altogether, it would be enough to convince me 100% that god doesn't exist. I am eager with anticipation.
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Just watched the special on the universe on h2. Truly incredible stuff. I'm optimistic that before I die we will be able to disprove god as the creator of this universe. And although that doesn't rule one out altogether, it would be enough to convince me 100% that god doesn't exist. I am eager with anticipation.
 
NorthOf49Sports
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Posted: Dec. 21, 2011 - 1:25 AM ET #2562

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/2010/09/ap-Former-Air-Force-officers-discuss-UFO-sightings-092710/

AIM HIGH 
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https://www.militarytimes.com/news/2010/09/ap-Former-Air-Force-officers-discuss-UFO-sightings-092710/

AIM HIGH 
 
Rostos
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Posted: Dec. 21, 2011 - 1:33 AM ET #2563

[Quote: Originally Posted by NorthOf49Sports] https://www.militarytimes.com/news/2010/09/ap-Former-Air-Force-officers-discuss-UFO-sightings-092710/

AIM HIGH 

[/Quote

Its interesting how aliens want to keep there existence a secret from us......

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[Quote: Originally Posted by NorthOf49Sports] https://www.militarytimes.com/news/2010/09/ap-Former-Air-Force-officers-discuss-UFO-sightings-092710/

AIM HIGH 

[/Quote

Its interesting how aliens want to keep there existence a secret from us......

 
SirJohnDrake
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Posted: Dec. 21, 2011 - 1:35 AM ET #2564

Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:

Just watched the special on the universe on h2. Truly incredible stuff. I'm optimistic that before I die we will be able to disprove god as the creator of this universe. And although that doesn't rule one out altogether, it would be enough to convince me 100% that god doesn't exist. I am eager with anticipation.

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Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:

Just watched the special on the universe on h2. Truly incredible stuff. I'm optimistic that before I die we will be able to disprove god as the creator of this universe. And although that doesn't rule one out altogether, it would be enough to convince me 100% that god doesn't exist. I am eager with anticipation.

 
Rostos
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Posted: Dec. 21, 2011 - 1:36 AM ET #2565

Quote Originally Posted by SirJohnDrake:

Science of the gaps...

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Quote Originally Posted by SirJohnDrake:

Science of the gaps...

 
SYSTEM
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Posted: Dec. 21, 2011 - 1:37 AM ET #2566

Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:


we're also talking about people killing or wanting to kill homosexuals or take away their rights

we're talking about people looking down on other people because they aren't part of their religion

we're talking about people making irrational decisions based on religion

we're talking about telling people not to wear condoms

we're talking about people not using medicine or going to a doctor

did you not look at the link I posted earlier on christian pastors killing children because they are witches?

just because you don't know any christians that kill, doesn't mean they're not out there...it's a big world (and no, it's not just Islam) wake up....

believe it or not, religion makes people do some messed up shit...


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Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:


we're also talking about people killing or wanting to kill homosexuals or take away their rights

we're talking about people looking down on other people because they aren't part of their religion

we're talking about people making irrational decisions based on religion

we're talking about telling people not to wear condoms

we're talking about people not using medicine or going to a doctor

did you not look at the link I posted earlier on christian pastors killing children because they are witches?

just because you don't know any christians that kill, doesn't mean they're not out there...it's a big world (and no, it's not just Islam) wake up....

believe it or not, religion makes people do some messed up shit...


 
NorthOf49Sports
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Posted: Dec. 21, 2011 - 1:59 AM ET #2567

Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

Quote Originally Posted by NorthOf49Sports:

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/2010/09/ap-Former-Air-Force-officers-discuss-UFO-sightings-092710/

AIM HIGH 

[/Quote

Its interesting how aliens want to keep there existence a secret from us......


Their (not there) existence... is no SECRET to those with CLEARANCE.

SECRET CLEARANCE is a military invention invented by humans to withhold information in an attempt to control, manipulate, or predict the outcome of certain current and/or future events.  

You have it backwards...

You'll need TS/SCI in addition to SAP clearance for privy to access.  I don't suppose you have or had to those clearances so you need to 


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Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

Quote Originally Posted by NorthOf49Sports:

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/2010/09/ap-Former-Air-Force-officers-discuss-UFO-sightings-092710/

AIM HIGH 

[/Quote

Its interesting how aliens want to keep there existence a secret from us......


Their (not there) existence... is no SECRET to those with CLEARANCE.

SECRET CLEARANCE is a military invention invented by humans to withhold information in an attempt to control, manipulate, or predict the outcome of certain current and/or future events.  

You have it backwards...

You'll need TS/SCI in addition to SAP clearance for privy to access.  I don't suppose you have or had to those clearances so you need to 


 
NorthOf49Sports
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Posted: Dec. 21, 2011 - 1:59 AM ET #2568

go back to church and start praying...
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go back to church and start praying...
 
Rostos
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Posted: Dec. 21, 2011 - 2:00 AM ET #2569

Quote Originally Posted by SYSTEM:


we're also talking about people killing or wanting to kill homosexuals or take away their rights. Yes, but i also have some atheist friends who also want to kill homosexuals, homophobia? In any case, no person should judge. Christian or not.

we're talking about people looking down on other people because they aren't part of their religion.
 
I have many non Christian friends and atheist friends, i have never talked down on them because of their belief.

we're talking about people making irrational decisions based on religion
 
Such as ? Remember, stick to Christianity? You have to establish how th eteachings of Christianity could rationally lead to the behaviour of these people.
we're talking about telling people not to wear condoms
 
Well, if people listened to the word of God, AIDS growth would decline significantly, and abortions would decline, resulting in less emotional pain for all. Prevention is better than cure.
we're talking about people not using medicine or going to a doctor
.
Didnt Steve Jobs reject an operation earlier? I dont know about others, but i have never rejected not going to the doc.
did you not look at the link I posted earlier on christian pastors killing children because they are witches?
 
Here we go again, where does Christ teach priests to do such a thing?

just because you don't know any christians that kill, doesn't mean they're not out there...it's a big world (and no, it's not just Islam) wake up....
 
Absolutely,  the thing is though, these people know what they are doing is wrong because the scriptures teach us not to do it. The people that commit these, are looking for excuses or hiding behind religion. It is rubbish, dont buy it.

believe it or not, religion makes people do some messed up shit...
 
But people who arent in a religion also do messed up shit, like kill 30 mill in a hit....


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Quote Originally Posted by SYSTEM:


we're also talking about people killing or wanting to kill homosexuals or take away their rights. Yes, but i also have some atheist friends who also want to kill homosexuals, homophobia? In any case, no person should judge. Christian or not.

we're talking about people looking down on other people because they aren't part of their religion.
 
I have many non Christian friends and atheist friends, i have never talked down on them because of their belief.

we're talking about people making irrational decisions based on religion
 
Such as ? Remember, stick to Christianity? You have to establish how th eteachings of Christianity could rationally lead to the behaviour of these people.
we're talking about telling people not to wear condoms
 
Well, if people listened to the word of God, AIDS growth would decline significantly, and abortions would decline, resulting in less emotional pain for all. Prevention is better than cure.
we're talking about people not using medicine or going to a doctor
.
Didnt Steve Jobs reject an operation earlier? I dont know about others, but i have never rejected not going to the doc.
did you not look at the link I posted earlier on christian pastors killing children because they are witches?
 
Here we go again, where does Christ teach priests to do such a thing?

just because you don't know any christians that kill, doesn't mean they're not out there...it's a big world (and no, it's not just Islam) wake up....
 
Absolutely,  the thing is though, these people know what they are doing is wrong because the scriptures teach us not to do it. The people that commit these, are looking for excuses or hiding behind religion. It is rubbish, dont buy it.

believe it or not, religion makes people do some messed up shit...
 
But people who arent in a religion also do messed up shit, like kill 30 mill in a hit....


 
Mikniks
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Posted: Dec. 21, 2011 - 2:04 AM ET #2570

In this case, it's not science of the gaps Rostos... Kitty said if it is proven that god did not create this universe, it doesn't rule out a supreme creator. The problem is the believers can just keep saying after every discovery, "Well, god came before that too." so it is impossible to ever disprove god. One thing I did take from the special about the universe is what one scientist said about the god theory. He said, "A hypothesis that can not theoretically ever be tested should not be considered a theory at all."

All in all it was a very interesting show. I am convinced one day we will have many answers to the questions we have now, answered by science of course...
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In this case, it's not science of the gaps Rostos... Kitty said if it is proven that god did not create this universe, it doesn't rule out a supreme creator. The problem is the believers can just keep saying after every discovery, "Well, god came before that too." so it is impossible to ever disprove god. One thing I did take from the special about the universe is what one scientist said about the god theory. He said, "A hypothesis that can not theoretically ever be tested should not be considered a theory at all."

All in all it was a very interesting show. I am convinced one day we will have many answers to the questions we have now, answered by science of course...
 
Rostos
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Posted: Dec. 21, 2011 - 2:06 AM ET #2571

Quote Originally Posted by NorthOf49Sports:


Their (not there) existence... is no SECRET to those with CLEARANCE.

SECRET CLEARANCE is a military invention invented by humans to withhold information in an attempt to control, manipulate, or predict the outcome of certain current and/or future events.  

You have it backwards...

You'll need TS/SCI in addition to SAP clearance for privy to access.  I don't suppose you have or had to those clearances so you need to 


I was more refering to , why dont they land in central park in ny in the middle of the day?

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Quote Originally Posted by NorthOf49Sports:


Their (not there) existence... is no SECRET to those with CLEARANCE.

SECRET CLEARANCE is a military invention invented by humans to withhold information in an attempt to control, manipulate, or predict the outcome of certain current and/or future events.  

You have it backwards...

You'll need TS/SCI in addition to SAP clearance for privy to access.  I don't suppose you have or had to those clearances so you need to 


I was more refering to , why dont they land in central park in ny in the middle of the day?

 
Rostos
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Posted: Dec. 21, 2011 - 2:09 AM ET #2572

Quote Originally Posted by Mikniks:

In this case, it's not science of the gaps Rostos... Kitty said if it is proven that god did not create this universe, it doesn't rule out a supreme creator. The problem is the believers can just keep saying after every discovery, "Well, god came before that too." so it is impossible to ever disprove god. One thing I did take from the special about the universe is what one scientist said about the god theory. He said, "A hypothesis that can not theoretically ever be tested should not be considered a theory at all."

All in all it was a very interesting show. I am convinced one day we will have many answers to the questions we have now, answered by science of course...

If a supernatural force did not create the universe, then we will have to throw much of physics and logic out the window of what we KNOW NOW. Thats not to say it wont, but rather, it means we will have to throw it out...

I have always said, the latest knowledge in cosmology and physics, points to a cause of the universe, outside our realm..

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Quote Originally Posted by Mikniks:

In this case, it's not science of the gaps Rostos... Kitty said if it is proven that god did not create this universe, it doesn't rule out a supreme creator. The problem is the believers can just keep saying after every discovery, "Well, god came before that too." so it is impossible to ever disprove god. One thing I did take from the special about the universe is what one scientist said about the god theory. He said, "A hypothesis that can not theoretically ever be tested should not be considered a theory at all."

All in all it was a very interesting show. I am convinced one day we will have many answers to the questions we have now, answered by science of course...

If a supernatural force did not create the universe, then we will have to throw much of physics and logic out the window of what we KNOW NOW. Thats not to say it wont, but rather, it means we will have to throw it out...

I have always said, the latest knowledge in cosmology and physics, points to a cause of the universe, outside our realm..

 
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Posted: Dec. 21, 2011 - 2:15 AM ET #2573

Luke 16:19-31

The Rich Man and Lazarus

There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ 27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

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Luke 16:19-31

The Rich Man and Lazarus

There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ 27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

 
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Posted: Dec. 21, 2011 - 2:16 AM ET #2574

The above quote tells me the non believer is not going to believe no matter what
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The above quote tells me the non believer is not going to believe no matter what
 
 
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Posted: Dec. 21, 2011 - 2:21 AM ET #2575

And the believers will never change their minds either. What is your point? I just thought it was an interesting take...
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And the believers will never change their minds either. What is your point? I just thought it was an interesting take...
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