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    All Forums | Systems & Strategies

    NBA: Effect of late withdrawl of "star" player

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    rod_steel
    babooey
    bookburner
    emet15
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    rod_steel
    rod_steel
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    Posted: Nov. 6, 2007 - 5:51 AM ET #1

    I don't even know whether this should even be in this section because I wouldn't call what I intend to a system of sorts but its easier for me to track it here.
     
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    An observation I have made in the past few seasons is that whenever a key player from a team is a last minute withdrawl from a team which subsquently causes a line movement against it, the team still invariably covers the line as many get suckered into playing the other side. I have no evidence of this so could be talking out of my ass here or simply it could be a case of coincidence therefore I want to put some numbers around this for a few months and see for myself whether there is any merit to my assertion above.
     
    Assuming this is the case I am thinking aloud as to some of the reasons why this could be the case, whereby you have teams that are still managing to cover even after their star player is scratched on late notice. Some obvious reasons are:
     
    - The support players in the team raise a level knowing that their key man is out for the game with effort and enthusiasm levels significantly increased especially on the defensive end.
    - Conversely the opposting team's effort and enthusiasm levels is brought down a notch, it is human nature to do so knowing that their opposition are without their key player. Subconciously it could be a case of them thinking all they need to do is turn up on the night to register a W.
    - Possibly overreaction by the linemakers/public? How does one exactly quantify in terms of points the absence of a particular player? Frankly it is a guessing game however from Vegas' perspective they need to set a line which ensure equal action or close to it, therefore it is ultimately the public which is setting and therefore 'overreacting' upon the news of the withdrawl.
     
    Ok now to actually testing this theory out. I have set some parameters around this so that I can bring some consistency around what I am tracking. My key parameters will be
     
    1) The player who actually withdraws on the night must be a "star" player (i.e. ranked in the top 2 players in the team). With most teams it's pretty obvious who those 2 players are, for other teams where it may not be as obvious I am have to use some judgement. I'll cross that bridge when we get there.
     
    2) The withdrawl must occur no earlier than 90min before scheduled tip off meaning the linemakers will have limited time to factor the withdrawl in any opening lines and any public reactions to the news in overnight lines.
     
    3) There must be an actual line movement, and the movement must favour the opposing team. The movement must be at least 1 point.
     
    Lets get the ball rolling.
     
     
     
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    To remove first post, remove entire topic.
    I don't even know whether this should even be in this section because I wouldn't call what I intend to a system of sorts but its easier for me to track it here.
     
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    An observation I have made in the past few seasons is that whenever a key player from a team is a last minute withdrawl from a team which subsquently causes a line movement against it, the team still invariably covers the line as many get suckered into playing the other side. I have no evidence of this so could be talking out of my ass here or simply it could be a case of coincidence therefore I want to put some numbers around this for a few months and see for myself whether there is any merit to my assertion above.
     
    Assuming this is the case I am thinking aloud as to some of the reasons why this could be the case, whereby you have teams that are still managing to cover even after their star player is scratched on late notice. Some obvious reasons are:
     
    - The support players in the team raise a level knowing that their key man is out for the game with effort and enthusiasm levels significantly increased especially on the defensive end.
    - Conversely the opposting team's effort and enthusiasm levels is brought down a notch, it is human nature to do so knowing that their opposition are without their key player. Subconciously it could be a case of them thinking all they need to do is turn up on the night to register a W.
    - Possibly overreaction by the linemakers/public? How does one exactly quantify in terms of points the absence of a particular player? Frankly it is a guessing game however from Vegas' perspective they need to set a line which ensure equal action or close to it, therefore it is ultimately the public which is setting and therefore 'overreacting' upon the news of the withdrawl.
     
    Ok now to actually testing this theory out. I have set some parameters around this so that I can bring some consistency around what I am tracking. My key parameters will be
     
    1) The player who actually withdraws on the night must be a "star" player (i.e. ranked in the top 2 players in the team). With most teams it's pretty obvious who those 2 players are, for other teams where it may not be as obvious I am have to use some judgement. I'll cross that bridge when we get there.
     
    2) The withdrawl must occur no earlier than 90min before scheduled tip off meaning the linemakers will have limited time to factor the withdrawl in any opening lines and any public reactions to the news in overnight lines.
     
    3) There must be an actual line movement, and the movement must favour the opposing team. The movement must be at least 1 point.
     
    Lets get the ball rolling.
     
     
     
     
    rod_steel
    rod_steel
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    Posted: Nov. 6, 2007 - 5:58 AM ET #2

    The first one I came across this season was on Sunday 4th Nov when the Cavs played the Suns. Stoudemire was a late withdrawl for the Suns.
     
    Cavs @ Suns - Sunday 4th November
     
    Opening line: Suns -8.5/Cavs +8.5
     
    Line adjustment post withdrawl: Suns -7/+7
     
    FT: Suns 103-92
     
    ATS Result: Suns
     
    ------------------------------------------------
     
    YTD Record (1-0-0)
     
    Note the lines I have posted are ones I witnessed so again there is an element of subjectivity here. If I have made a blatant error please let me know. Further O'Neal did not play for the Pacers against the Wizards last week however the line had already factored his absence (Pacers +2.5 in this instance). You can correct me if I am wrong here but I'm pretty sure there was no movement in this case.
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    The first one I came across this season was on Sunday 4th Nov when the Cavs played the Suns. Stoudemire was a late withdrawl for the Suns.
     
    Cavs @ Suns - Sunday 4th November
     
    Opening line: Suns -8.5/Cavs +8.5
     
    Line adjustment post withdrawl: Suns -7/+7
     
    FT: Suns 103-92
     
    ATS Result: Suns
     
    ------------------------------------------------
     
    YTD Record (1-0-0)
     
    Note the lines I have posted are ones I witnessed so again there is an element of subjectivity here. If I have made a blatant error please let me know. Further O'Neal did not play for the Pacers against the Wizards last week however the line had already factored his absence (Pacers +2.5 in this instance). You can correct me if I am wrong here but I'm pretty sure there was no movement in this case.
     
    babooey
    babooey
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    Posted: Nov. 6, 2007 - 8:31 AM ET #3

      I have noticed myself! For some reason it is very hard to go the other way in this kind of situation
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      I have noticed myself! For some reason it is very hard to go the other way in this kind of situation
     
    bookburner
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    Posted: Nov. 6, 2007 - 10:34 AM ET #4

    Rod
     
    That's some good stuff man.  I will follow this system.
    By the way read somewhere hou 1h dallas 2h and i cashed in thanks
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    Rod
     
    That's some good stuff man.  I will follow this system.
    By the way read somewhere hou 1h dallas 2h and i cashed in thanks
     
    emet15
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    Posted: Nov. 6, 2007 - 11:05 AM ET #5

     you wouldnt believe me if I told you that I woke up thinking the exact same thing.......!!

    And you can add one more case in there, with the opening game for the Detroit Pistons vs the Miami heat, where Rip was rulled out just an hour or so before the game and the line dropped against them around 2 pts, they still won and covered..........

     

    Juts wondered if thes kind of info was allready known by the linesmakers...... and just simply adjust the line, to get a big flow of cash against the initally favored team??? I mean, lines like the detroit one i Talked about seemed even withou Rip to easy for them to cover.......... just wondering........

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     you wouldnt believe me if I told you that I woke up thinking the exact same thing.......!!

    And you can add one more case in there, with the opening game for the Detroit Pistons vs the Miami heat, where Rip was rulled out just an hour or so before the game and the line dropped against them around 2 pts, they still won and covered..........

     

    Juts wondered if thes kind of info was allready known by the linesmakers...... and just simply adjust the line, to get a big flow of cash against the initally favored team??? I mean, lines like the detroit one i Talked about seemed even withou Rip to easy for them to cover.......... just wondering........

     
    thedegenerate
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    Posted: Nov. 6, 2007 - 11:26 AM ET #6

    in the past i has faded the team that had a star player out and have lost.  its known amonst my friends that if a star is out, bet on that team.
     
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    in the past i has faded the team that had a star player out and have lost.  its known amonst my friends that if a star is out, bet on that team.
     
     
    swopedog19
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    Posted: Nov. 6, 2007 - 11:28 AM ET #7

    You were right on pacers as well
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    You were right on pacers as well
     
    MIB
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    Posted: Nov. 6, 2007 - 12:26 PM ET #8

    I have noticed the same thing. Pistons at the Heat. You need to add that one as well. Rip was out, line moved, Pistons rolled.
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    I have noticed the same thing. Pistons at the Heat. You need to add that one as well. Rip was out, line moved, Pistons rolled.
     
    rod_steel
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    Posted: Nov. 6, 2007 - 2:29 PM ET #9

    Quote Originally Posted by emet15:

     you wouldnt believe me if I told you that I woke up thinking the exact same thing.......!!

    And you can add one more case in there, with the opening game for the Detroit Pistons vs the Miami heat, where Rip was rulled out just an hour or so before the game and the line dropped against them around 2 pts, they still won and covered..........

     

    Juts wondered if thes kind of info was allready known by the linesmakers...... and just simply adjust the line, to get a big flow of cash against the initally favored team??? I mean, lines like the detroit one i Talked about seemed even withou Rip to easy for them to cover.......... just wondering........

    You are right about the Pistons/Heat game, I completely forgot about that game. For the purposes of this exercise I will start from the Sunday game between Cavs/Suns.

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    Quote Originally Posted by emet15:

     you wouldnt believe me if I told you that I woke up thinking the exact same thing.......!!

    And you can add one more case in there, with the opening game for the Detroit Pistons vs the Miami heat, where Rip was rulled out just an hour or so before the game and the line dropped against them around 2 pts, they still won and covered..........

     

    Juts wondered if thes kind of info was allready known by the linesmakers...... and just simply adjust the line, to get a big flow of cash against the initally favored team??? I mean, lines like the detroit one i Talked about seemed even withou Rip to easy for them to cover.......... just wondering........

    You are right about the Pistons/Heat game, I completely forgot about that game. For the purposes of this exercise I will start from the Sunday game between Cavs/Suns.

     
    rod_steel
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    Posted: Nov. 6, 2007 - 2:36 PM ET #10

    Also given that I usually am out during games on weekdays feel free to post in here any similar tupe situations which occur during the tracking period. I usually will have a look at all the games at the end of the night to see if any of them fit into my NBA systems however there is a chance I may still miss it.
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    Also given that I usually am out during games on weekdays feel free to post in here any similar tupe situations which occur during the tracking period. I usually will have a look at all the games at the end of the night to see if any of them fit into my NBA systems however there is a chance I may still miss it.
     
    hustle_man
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    Posted: Nov. 6, 2007 - 4:38 PM ET #11

    rod_steel,
     
    Nice thread.  Simple but effective and you can thank the NBA CBA for it.
     
    Prior to 2006-2007, teams had the injured list (IL) option where they could place players that were hurt on injured reserve.  Since you can only suit 12 guys during the regular season, it was a convenience as teams were able to sign another guy to fill in or "promote" someone else.  The problem with the list was that if a player was sent to the IL, they had to sit out a minimum of 5 games.
     
    With the new CBA in place starting 2006-2007, the IL was waived and the AL (active list) was born.  Pretty much stating that teams can rotate whatever 12 players out of the 15 they want on a game to game basis as long as they are on the active roster list which is turned in an hour before the game is supposed to tip off.
     
    A lot of coaches dont like this when it comes to star players because the other team doesnt have to release the info until an hour before tip off.
     
    I think it helps the team that has the injury because most of the time they know the injured players status in the morning walk through and know he wont play.  Plus the fact that most guys dont have overnight to think about the fact they are playing without a key player, they'll step up... Atleast for that one game.
     
    So you're right in your thinking that this should be a successful "system"
     
    There are also a couple of other "fade the public perception" plays that you could probably chart if you wanted -
     
    - Play on a team, in game 1, that has hired a new coach during the season.
     
    - Fade a team with a key player returning from prolonged injury ( I know this went 6-0 to start off the season last year with the Lakers when Bryant returned )
     
    - Play on a team when coach is facing former team a year removed. (I.E. PJ Carlisemo/Seattle) vs. San Antonio)
     
    Good luck with the tracking.
     
     
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    rod_steel,
     
    Nice thread.  Simple but effective and you can thank the NBA CBA for it.
     
    Prior to 2006-2007, teams had the injured list (IL) option where they could place players that were hurt on injured reserve.  Since you can only suit 12 guys during the regular season, it was a convenience as teams were able to sign another guy to fill in or "promote" someone else.  The problem with the list was that if a player was sent to the IL, they had to sit out a minimum of 5 games.
     
    With the new CBA in place starting 2006-2007, the IL was waived and the AL (active list) was born.  Pretty much stating that teams can rotate whatever 12 players out of the 15 they want on a game to game basis as long as they are on the active roster list which is turned in an hour before the game is supposed to tip off.
     
    A lot of coaches dont like this when it comes to star players because the other team doesnt have to release the info until an hour before tip off.
     
    I think it helps the team that has the injury because most of the time they know the injured players status in the morning walk through and know he wont play.  Plus the fact that most guys dont have overnight to think about the fact they are playing without a key player, they'll step up... Atleast for that one game.
     
    So you're right in your thinking that this should be a successful "system"
     
    There are also a couple of other "fade the public perception" plays that you could probably chart if you wanted -
     
    - Play on a team, in game 1, that has hired a new coach during the season.
     
    - Fade a team with a key player returning from prolonged injury ( I know this went 6-0 to start off the season last year with the Lakers when Bryant returned )
     
    - Play on a team when coach is facing former team a year removed. (I.E. PJ Carlisemo/Seattle) vs. San Antonio)
     
    Good luck with the tracking.
     
     
     
    hustle_man
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    Posted: Nov. 6, 2007 - 4:43 PM ET #12

    P.S. The whole Acitive List information I spoke of was one of the main things Tim Donaghy was busted for because he was able to supply this information hours in advance before the list was submitted.
     
     
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    P.S. The whole Acitive List information I spoke of was one of the main things Tim Donaghy was busted for because he was able to supply this information hours in advance before the list was submitted.
     
     
     
    rod_steel
    rod_steel
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    Posted: Nov. 15, 2007 - 6:02 AM ET #13

    Pistons @ Warriors - Wednesday 14th November
     
    Opening line: Pistons -3/Warriors +3
     
    Line adjustment post withdrawl: Pistons -1.5/+1.5 (Billups)
     
    FT: Pistons 111-104
     
    ATS Result: Pistons
     
    ------------------------------
     
    YTD Record (2-0-0)
     
     
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    Pistons @ Warriors - Wednesday 14th November
     
    Opening line: Pistons -3/Warriors +3
     
    Line adjustment post withdrawl: Pistons -1.5/+1.5 (Billups)
     
    FT: Pistons 111-104
     
    ATS Result: Pistons
     
    ------------------------------
     
    YTD Record (2-0-0)
     
     
     
    rod_steel
    rod_steel
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    Posted: Nov. 17, 2007 - 11:28 PM ET #14

    Two like situations occurred tonight

    Trailblazers @ Wizards - Saturday 17th November

    Opening line: Trailblazers +6/Wizards -6

    Line adjustment post withdrawl: Trailblazers +4.5/Wizards -4.5 (Arenas)

    FT: Wizards 109-90

    ATS Result: Wizards

    Hornets @ T-Wolves - Saturday 17th November

    Opening line: Hornets -6.5/T-Wolves +6.5

    Line adjustment post withdrawl: Hornets -4.5/T-Wolves +4.5 (Paul)

    FT: Hornets 100-82

    ATS Result: Hornets

    -----------------------------------

    YTD Record (4-0-0)

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    Two like situations occurred tonight

    Trailblazers @ Wizards - Saturday 17th November

    Opening line: Trailblazers +6/Wizards -6

    Line adjustment post withdrawl: Trailblazers +4.5/Wizards -4.5 (Arenas)

    FT: Wizards 109-90

    ATS Result: Wizards

    Hornets @ T-Wolves - Saturday 17th November

    Opening line: Hornets -6.5/T-Wolves +6.5

    Line adjustment post withdrawl: Hornets -4.5/T-Wolves +4.5 (Paul)

    FT: Hornets 100-82

    ATS Result: Hornets

    -----------------------------------

    YTD Record (4-0-0)

     
    DK-
    DK-
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    Posted: Nov. 23, 2007 - 9:37 PM ET #15

    nice write up rod, will check back later for more of these
     
     
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    nice write up rod, will check back later for more of these
     
     
     
    JG33
    JG33
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    Posted: Nov. 23, 2007 - 10:10 PM ET #16

    I've been playing something similar for years.  My friend and I called them "setup games" where they adjust the line because of injury and everyone bets the other side and the team with the injured player wins.  It works in most sports.
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    I've been playing something similar for years.  My friend and I called them "setup games" where they adjust the line because of injury and everyone bets the other side and the team with the injured player wins.  It works in most sports.
     
    rod_steel
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    Posted: Nov. 25, 2007 - 1:52 AM ET #17

    One to add for Saturday
     
    Bulls @ Knicks - Saturday 24th November 2007
     
    Opening line: Bulls -3/Knicks +3

    Line adjustment post withdrawl: Bulls -2/Knicks +2 (Deng)

    FT: Knicks 85-78

    ATS Result: Knicks

    -----------------------------------

    YTD Record (4-1-0)

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    One to add for Saturday
     
    Bulls @ Knicks - Saturday 24th November 2007
     
    Opening line: Bulls -3/Knicks +3

    Line adjustment post withdrawl: Bulls -2/Knicks +2 (Deng)

    FT: Knicks 85-78

    ATS Result: Knicks

    -----------------------------------

    YTD Record (4-1-0)

     
    bscali
    bscali
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    Posts: 11
    Posted: Nov. 26, 2007 - 12:23 PM ET #18

    Quote Originally Posted by rod_steel:

    One to add for Saturday
     
    Bulls @ Knicks - Saturday 24th November 2007
     
    Opening line: Bulls -3/Knicks +3

    Line adjustment post withdrawl: Bulls -2/Knicks +2 (Deng)

    FT: Knicks 85-78

    ATS Result: Knicks

    -----------------------------------

    YTD Record (4-1-0)

     

     

    FYI Deng played so this should not count.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by rod_steel:

    One to add for Saturday
     
    Bulls @ Knicks - Saturday 24th November 2007
     
    Opening line: Bulls -3/Knicks +3

    Line adjustment post withdrawl: Bulls -2/Knicks +2 (Deng)

    FT: Knicks 85-78

    ATS Result: Knicks

    -----------------------------------

    YTD Record (4-1-0)

     

     

    FYI Deng played so this should not count.....

     
    thedegenerate
    thedegenerate
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    Posted: Nov. 27, 2007 - 10:28 AM ET #19

    Ray Allen may not play tonight.
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    Ray Allen may not play tonight.
     
    rod_steel
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    Posted: Nov. 30, 2007 - 6:36 PM ET #20

    Quote Originally Posted by bscali:

     

     

    FYI Deng played so this should not count.....

    I was meaning to correct this on the next update. Thanks for the heads up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bscali:

     

     

    FYI Deng played so this should not count.....

    I was meaning to correct this on the next update. Thanks for the heads up.

     
    rod_steel
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    Posted: Nov. 30, 2007 - 6:42 PM ET #21

    Sorry what am talking about, Deng  was a late withdrawl in that game. He played against the Clippers when it was reported he wouldn't.

    That game still stands.

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    Sorry what am talking about, Deng  was a late withdrawl in that game. He played against the Clippers when it was reported he wouldn't.

    That game still stands.

     
    rod_steel
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    Posted: Dec. 1, 2007 - 3:12 AM ET #22

    Lakers @ Jazz - Friday 30th November 2007
     
    Opening line: Lakers +7.5/Jazz -7.5

    Line adjustment post withdrawl: Lakers +5.5/Jazz -5.5 (Boozer)

    FT: Jazz 120-96

    ATS Result: Jazz

    -----------------------------------

    YTD Record (5-1-0)

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    Lakers @ Jazz - Friday 30th November 2007
     
    Opening line: Lakers +7.5/Jazz -7.5

    Line adjustment post withdrawl: Lakers +5.5/Jazz -5.5 (Boozer)

    FT: Jazz 120-96

    ATS Result: Jazz

    -----------------------------------

    YTD Record (5-1-0)

     
    thedegenerate
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    Posted: Dec. 2, 2007 - 12:55 PM ET #23

    james out for cle today.  line went from 11 to 15
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    james out for cle today.  line went from 11 to 15
     
    rod_steel
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    Posted: Dec. 2, 2007 - 8:32 PM ET #24

    Cavs @ Celtics - Sunday 2nd Decemebr 2007
     
    Opening line: Cavs +10.5/Celtics -10.5

    Line adjustment post withdrawl: Cavs +15/Celtics -15 (L James)

    FT: Celtics 80-70

    ATS Result: Cavs

    -----------------------------------

    YTD Record (6-1-0)

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    Cavs @ Celtics - Sunday 2nd Decemebr 2007
     
    Opening line: Cavs +10.5/Celtics -10.5

    Line adjustment post withdrawl: Cavs +15/Celtics -15 (L James)

    FT: Celtics 80-70

    ATS Result: Cavs

    -----------------------------------

    YTD Record (6-1-0)

     
     
    rod_steel
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    Posted: Dec. 8, 2007 - 3:08 AM ET #25

    Bobcats @ Raptors - Monday 3rd December 2007
     
    Opening line: Bobcats +5.5/Raptors -5.5
     

    Line adjustment post withdrawl: Bobcats +2.5/Raptors -2.5 (Bosh & Ford)

     

    FT: Raptors 98-79

     

    ATS Result: Raptors

    -----------------------------------

    YTD Record (7-1-0)

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    Bobcats @ Raptors - Monday 3rd December 2007
     
    Opening line: Bobcats +5.5/Raptors -5.5
     

    Line adjustment post withdrawl: Bobcats +2.5/Raptors -2.5 (Bosh & Ford)

     

    FT: Raptors 98-79

     

    ATS Result: Raptors

    -----------------------------------

    YTD Record (7-1-0)

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