Exactly, I was ONLY talking about the wrongly convicted/innocent and then put to death, those people!! We are not even debating the merits of the death penatly and I EVEN went on to say there is difference in price people are willing to pay.
Sure, it makes us all feel better but It's indeed foolish to pretend there are no innocent people within the convicted murderers since it's been proven otherwise more than a few times.With this FACT in hand, I found how ironic for those who called themselves pro-life yet without any hestiation in putting someone to death.
WHETHER THE PERSON IS FOR THE DEATH PENALTY OR NOT ISN'T EVEN THE POINT OF CONTENTION. If ANYTHING, I was comparing fetuse with the INNOCENT but wrongly convicted. Don't come back with the difference in numbers also because it shouldn't matter to a true pro-lifer. It's unbelievable how you just want to interpret the way you want without even bother....
To say that I should do away with my opinion on what happens to a person who has no regard for human life just because our system in the past has made a few mistakes is asinine.
Most of the mistakes were the result of shady prosecutors or bad evidence. With DNA dominating modern crime scene evidence, I have faith that accuracy in convictions has vastly improved compared to even twenty years ago.
Death penalty cases are rarely applied to just one murder anyway.
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Quote Originally Posted by bunny651:
Exactly, I was ONLY talking about the wrongly convicted/innocent and then put to death, those people!! We are not even debating the merits of the death penatly and I EVEN went on to say there is difference in price people are willing to pay.
Sure, it makes us all feel better but It's indeed foolish to pretend there are no innocent people within the convicted murderers since it's been proven otherwise more than a few times.With this FACT in hand, I found how ironic for those who called themselves pro-life yet without any hestiation in putting someone to death.
WHETHER THE PERSON IS FOR THE DEATH PENALTY OR NOT ISN'T EVEN THE POINT OF CONTENTION. If ANYTHING, I was comparing fetuse with the INNOCENT but wrongly convicted. Don't come back with the difference in numbers also because it shouldn't matter to a true pro-lifer. It's unbelievable how you just want to interpret the way you want without even bother....
To say that I should do away with my opinion on what happens to a person who has no regard for human life just because our system in the past has made a few mistakes is asinine.
Most of the mistakes were the result of shady prosecutors or bad evidence. With DNA dominating modern crime scene evidence, I have faith that accuracy in convictions has vastly improved compared to even twenty years ago.
Death penalty cases are rarely applied to just one murder anyway.
not nearly as much as the government loves naive folk like yourself. you keep injecting the word citizens. your fellow government lover darkhorse specified citizens as well
it sounds like you two are saying that you want the government to possess and utilize this kind of weaponry, just not the citizenry. isnt the government just the largest corporation in the game, comprised of the citizenry
where does this undying love affair for all things government come from? have either of you ever once questioned the motives or the actions of the government?
talk about fear, ,,,,,
I LOVE ALL YOUR POSTS IN THIS THREAD BEZY
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Quote Originally Posted by be easy:
not nearly as much as the government loves naive folk like yourself. you keep injecting the word citizens. your fellow government lover darkhorse specified citizens as well
it sounds like you two are saying that you want the government to possess and utilize this kind of weaponry, just not the citizenry. isnt the government just the largest corporation in the game, comprised of the citizenry
where does this undying love affair for all things government come from? have either of you ever once questioned the motives or the actions of the government?
To say that I should do away with my opinion on what happens to a person who has no regard for human life just because our system in the past has made a few mistakes is asinine.
Most of the mistakes were the result of shady prosecutors or bad evidence. With DNA dominating modern crime scene evidence, I have faith that accuracy in convictions has vastly improved compared to even twenty years ago.
Death penalty cases are rarely applied to just one murder anyway.
innocent people put to death by our government = a few unfortunate mistakes
such is the rationalization of the pro death penalty pro-lifer.
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Quote Originally Posted by bowlslit:
To say that I should do away with my opinion on what happens to a person who has no regard for human life just because our system in the past has made a few mistakes is asinine.
Most of the mistakes were the result of shady prosecutors or bad evidence. With DNA dominating modern crime scene evidence, I have faith that accuracy in convictions has vastly improved compared to even twenty years ago.
Death penalty cases are rarely applied to just one murder anyway.
innocent people put to death by our government = a few unfortunate mistakes
such is the rationalization of the pro death penalty pro-lifer.
To say that I should do away with my opinion on what happens to a person who has no regard for human life just because our system in the past has made a few mistakes is asinine.
Most of the mistakes were the result of shady prosecutors or bad evidence. With DNA dominating modern crime scene evidence, I have faith that accuracy in convictions has vastly improved compared to even twenty years ago.
Death penalty cases are rarely applied to just one murder anyway.
I'm not sure that one statement you made in your entire post is factually accurate. That is tough to do.
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Quote Originally Posted by bowlslit:
To say that I should do away with my opinion on what happens to a person who has no regard for human life just because our system in the past has made a few mistakes is asinine.
Most of the mistakes were the result of shady prosecutors or bad evidence. With DNA dominating modern crime scene evidence, I have faith that accuracy in convictions has vastly improved compared to even twenty years ago.
Death penalty cases are rarely applied to just one murder anyway.
bowlsit, you're well into rightwinger logic territory, which is the failure to use logic at all. no, that's not my idea.
see, there are differences between accepting innocent people going to jail and accepting innocent being killed. one, if it is later shown through dna or whatever that the guy is innocent, you can get the person out of jail and pay him some damages which governments sometimes do. that doesn't work as well when we've killed the innocent person.
the other difference is that there's no reason to kill people for committing crimes. in other words, to the non-rightwinger who actually does have some respect for the sanctity of life, the benefit of killing people on death row is far outweighed by the cost of killing innocent people. that's true for two reasons. one, we sanctity of life non-rightwingers actually think an innocent person's life is important. and two, there is actually a good alternative to the death penalty that solves the problem as well as it can. it's call life in prison.
now, when i hear about some piece of garbage killing kids or committing some other bad murder, i have no problem with him getting the death penalty if it's clear he's 100% guilty. the problem is that our criminal justice system is flawed and because it is, i can't get behind a system that puts innocent people to death over time. and that's because i'm a non-rightwinger who actually thinks innocent lives are sacred.
that being said, of course there are innocent people sent to jail for short periods of time, long periods of time and life. the system isn't perfect. but it's the best we have and we have to accept that like we do all good but imperfect systems. but we don't need to kill people in it knowing we are making mistakes every now and then.
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bowlsit, you're well into rightwinger logic territory, which is the failure to use logic at all. no, that's not my idea.
see, there are differences between accepting innocent people going to jail and accepting innocent being killed. one, if it is later shown through dna or whatever that the guy is innocent, you can get the person out of jail and pay him some damages which governments sometimes do. that doesn't work as well when we've killed the innocent person.
the other difference is that there's no reason to kill people for committing crimes. in other words, to the non-rightwinger who actually does have some respect for the sanctity of life, the benefit of killing people on death row is far outweighed by the cost of killing innocent people. that's true for two reasons. one, we sanctity of life non-rightwingers actually think an innocent person's life is important. and two, there is actually a good alternative to the death penalty that solves the problem as well as it can. it's call life in prison.
now, when i hear about some piece of garbage killing kids or committing some other bad murder, i have no problem with him getting the death penalty if it's clear he's 100% guilty. the problem is that our criminal justice system is flawed and because it is, i can't get behind a system that puts innocent people to death over time. and that's because i'm a non-rightwinger who actually thinks innocent lives are sacred.
that being said, of course there are innocent people sent to jail for short periods of time, long periods of time and life. the system isn't perfect. but it's the best we have and we have to accept that like we do all good but imperfect systems. but we don't need to kill people in it knowing we are making mistakes every now and then.
Spare me the lecture on your idea of sanctity of life. Many years ago I dated a girl that was the product of a rape. She was a very good person yet you and your people would not lose any sleep over her kind being snuffed out without a chance to enjoy this sanctity of life you speak of.
What makes you believe that I have no problem with innocent people being executed? We have an appeal process that is very robust. Death row inmates usually spend 10 years or more waiting for their turn. I presume that is more than reasonable enough to prove their innocence.
Its because of non right wing people like you that convenient store workers and such cannot have a shotgun to protect them from would be killers over 20 dollars.
Its also non right wing people like you who allow a woman's attacker to sue her for defending herself if she does not somehow kill him.
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How many innocent people have we executed?
Spare me the lecture on your idea of sanctity of life. Many years ago I dated a girl that was the product of a rape. She was a very good person yet you and your people would not lose any sleep over her kind being snuffed out without a chance to enjoy this sanctity of life you speak of.
What makes you believe that I have no problem with innocent people being executed? We have an appeal process that is very robust. Death row inmates usually spend 10 years or more waiting for their turn. I presume that is more than reasonable enough to prove their innocence.
Its because of non right wing people like you that convenient store workers and such cannot have a shotgun to protect them from would be killers over 20 dollars.
Its also non right wing people like you who allow a woman's attacker to sue her for defending herself if she does not somehow kill him.
Spare me the lecture on your idea of sanctity of life. Many years ago I dated a girl that was the product of a rape. She was a very good person yet you and your people would not lose any sleep over her kind being snuffed out without a chance to enjoy this sanctity of life you speak of.
What makes you believe that I have no problem with innocent people being executed? We have an appeal process that is very robust. Death row inmates usually spend 10 years or more waiting for their turn. I presume that is more than reasonable enough to prove their innocence.
Its because of non right wing people like you that convenient store workers and such cannot have a shotgun to protect them from would be killers over 20 dollars.
Its also non right wing people like you who allow a woman's attacker to sue her for defending herself if she does not somehow kill him.
there's no way to know how many innocent people have died on death row. here's a link about it.
it's not a lecture on the sanctity of life. like many of my posts, it's a parody of the hypocritical sanctity of life crowd. they should be called the sanctity of (some, mostly unborn) life crowd.
i don't lose sleep over another person's abortion. people have abortions every day, even hypocritical rightwingers. if i lost sleep over it, i'd never sleep. but unlike extremists like yourself, i acknowledge that the other side of the argument and agree they have a strong, legitimate concern. i recognize it unlike you who fails to ever mention the other side which is keeping big government out of a woman;'s body and her right to choose.
we do have an appeals process, but it's not perfect. and as a result, innocent people get convicted. and sometimes the evidence comes out after the apppals are over. if the person is dead, that doesn't help much. tell me what's wrong with putting someone in prison for life over the death penalty if some innocent people have been put on death row.
i don't understand the comment about me and convenient store workers not being able to have shotguns.
i also don't understand the last comment.
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Quote Originally Posted by bowlslit:
How many innocent people have we executed?
Spare me the lecture on your idea of sanctity of life. Many years ago I dated a girl that was the product of a rape. She was a very good person yet you and your people would not lose any sleep over her kind being snuffed out without a chance to enjoy this sanctity of life you speak of.
What makes you believe that I have no problem with innocent people being executed? We have an appeal process that is very robust. Death row inmates usually spend 10 years or more waiting for their turn. I presume that is more than reasonable enough to prove their innocence.
Its because of non right wing people like you that convenient store workers and such cannot have a shotgun to protect them from would be killers over 20 dollars.
Its also non right wing people like you who allow a woman's attacker to sue her for defending herself if she does not somehow kill him.
there's no way to know how many innocent people have died on death row. here's a link about it.
it's not a lecture on the sanctity of life. like many of my posts, it's a parody of the hypocritical sanctity of life crowd. they should be called the sanctity of (some, mostly unborn) life crowd.
i don't lose sleep over another person's abortion. people have abortions every day, even hypocritical rightwingers. if i lost sleep over it, i'd never sleep. but unlike extremists like yourself, i acknowledge that the other side of the argument and agree they have a strong, legitimate concern. i recognize it unlike you who fails to ever mention the other side which is keeping big government out of a woman;'s body and her right to choose.
we do have an appeals process, but it's not perfect. and as a result, innocent people get convicted. and sometimes the evidence comes out after the apppals are over. if the person is dead, that doesn't help much. tell me what's wrong with putting someone in prison for life over the death penalty if some innocent people have been put on death row.
i don't understand the comment about me and convenient store workers not being able to have shotguns.
We've come back to that argument where I don't see a fetus as an anatomical part of a woman's body and therefore not under just her jurisdiction.
If people knew they had a good chance of getting executed over committing a heinous crime they may think twice about it and that would save at least a few lives.
For that matter, if people actually believed that going to prison would be hell every day they may think twice and....
Its left leaning ACLU punks that detour convenient stores and such from properly defending from would be armed robbers. The only reason they don't carry shotguns under the cash register is fear of the robber or the robber's family suing them in court.
How many convenient stores would get robbed if the assailant knew he'd have a good chance of being shot with 12 gauge buck from close range?
I don't have any respect for the ACLU who defends criminals rights more than any other.
Why don't we have laws that protect a homeowner from being sued if he merely wounds the home invader? Its not because of right wingers like me!
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We've come back to that argument where I don't see a fetus as an anatomical part of a woman's body and therefore not under just her jurisdiction.
If people knew they had a good chance of getting executed over committing a heinous crime they may think twice about it and that would save at least a few lives.
For that matter, if people actually believed that going to prison would be hell every day they may think twice and....
Its left leaning ACLU punks that detour convenient stores and such from properly defending from would be armed robbers. The only reason they don't carry shotguns under the cash register is fear of the robber or the robber's family suing them in court.
How many convenient stores would get robbed if the assailant knew he'd have a good chance of being shot with 12 gauge buck from close range?
I don't have any respect for the ACLU who defends criminals rights more than any other.
Why don't we have laws that protect a homeowner from being sued if he merely wounds the home invader? Its not because of right wingers like me!
I found it equally ironic that a lot those pro-lifes have no problem whatsoever with the death penalty even knowing full well the majority of them weren't defended properly and in some cases, were exonerated through DNA evidences while on death roll. Hard to imagine those pre-DNA days.......
After doing some research regarding death row inmates and the wrongfully convicted I agree with you that there is a problem.
I think we should keep the death penalty but revise the court system.
Jury trials seem to be the best, yet still have flaws.
As much as it pains me to say this. I can trust a panel of Judges in lieu of a Jury of peers.
Our problem is not the death penalty itself, rather than the trial system.
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Quote Originally Posted by bunny651:
I found it equally ironic that a lot those pro-lifes have no problem whatsoever with the death penalty even knowing full well the majority of them weren't defended properly and in some cases, were exonerated through DNA evidences while on death roll. Hard to imagine those pre-DNA days.......
After doing some research regarding death row inmates and the wrongfully convicted I agree with you that there is a problem.
I think we should keep the death penalty but revise the court system.
Jury trials seem to be the best, yet still have flaws.
As much as it pains me to say this. I can trust a panel of Judges in lieu of a Jury of peers.
Our problem is not the death penalty itself, rather than the trial system.
Thank you for taking the time to research the subject.
I agree the problem mainly lies with the trial/justice system. The majority of cases were/are represented by court-appointed attorneys. I am sure you have heard stories how some of them felt to sleep during trials or other incompetence but lets forget those for a minute. It varies state by state but the budget for each case is extremely limited. Needless to say, attorneys in general aren't exactly thrilled to be assigned to those and even if they do, they often wouldn't be able to mount a vigorous defense. It's bad enough when a person's liberty is at stake, let alone someone's life.
I don't have a problem with the death penalty itself as much as how it's carried out under the current system which most of us will agree is highly flawed. Unfortunately, nothing meaningful will happen anytime soon and at the mean time.....
Not necessarily from you but I also found a bit of hypocrisy when it comes to the reasoning as well. When agruing against the gun laws, a lot of people said no amount of gun laws would stop those nutjobs which I actually agree with but at the same time, they will also point to the death penatly as a deterrent to murders as if somehow those people would actually take a moment for reflection of some sorts. You can't have it both ways.
Lastly, I still would rather be judged by peers than a panel of judges and it's a cornerstone of our judical system.
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Quote Originally Posted by bowlslit:
After doing some research regarding death row inmates and the wrongfully convicted I agree with you that there is a problem.
I think we should keep the death penalty but revise the court system.
Jury trials seem to be the best, yet still have flaws.
As much as it pains me to say this. I can trust a panel of Judges in lieu of a Jury of peers.
Our problem is not the death penalty itself, rather than the trial system.
Thank you for taking the time to research the subject.
I agree the problem mainly lies with the trial/justice system. The majority of cases were/are represented by court-appointed attorneys. I am sure you have heard stories how some of them felt to sleep during trials or other incompetence but lets forget those for a minute. It varies state by state but the budget for each case is extremely limited. Needless to say, attorneys in general aren't exactly thrilled to be assigned to those and even if they do, they often wouldn't be able to mount a vigorous defense. It's bad enough when a person's liberty is at stake, let alone someone's life.
I don't have a problem with the death penalty itself as much as how it's carried out under the current system which most of us will agree is highly flawed. Unfortunately, nothing meaningful will happen anytime soon and at the mean time.....
Not necessarily from you but I also found a bit of hypocrisy when it comes to the reasoning as well. When agruing against the gun laws, a lot of people said no amount of gun laws would stop those nutjobs which I actually agree with but at the same time, they will also point to the death penatly as a deterrent to murders as if somehow those people would actually take a moment for reflection of some sorts. You can't have it both ways.
Lastly, I still would rather be judged by peers than a panel of judges and it's a cornerstone of our judical system.
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