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I often pick on Israel

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Posted: #1
But rightfully so as they are no longer a strategic asset to the U.S. and the aid we give them which subsidizes their economy, military power and diplomatic might has remained a huge burden on U.S. taxpayers. As well as the foreign policy that the U.S. pursues and helps Israyel pursue has been detrimental to OUR (United States) and Israyel's well being especially with regards to diplomatic relations with other Arab nations.

And these two men brilliantly give a small speech each and offer a Q & A session.

A few times that are of interest:

33:00 minutes begins the Q & A. And the first individual gets things heated from the get go!

38:30 is an interesting question about corporate interests and gun manufacturers.

47:00 minutes.... This guy is an absolute fool. Mearsheimer and Walt essentially tell him to go fuck himself.

55:00 minutes ... Very fascinating question. Worthy of listening to.

1:15:00 minutes the last question is heated but again this question is a nice wrap up to the question.

I'm not here to get into an argument, but I encourage you all to listen to a few of those time slots.

Really, its very thought provoking and practical.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzXS3tmZrcU
 
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Posted: #2
These two men are not morons  like glenn beck, o'reilly, hannity etc...

They're no blowhards, in fact Walt was once highly recommenced to take the one of the highest  position in the land; secretary of state.

John J. Mearsheimer of the University of Chicago and Stephen M. Walt of Harvard's John F. Kennedy School of Government


 
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Posted: #3
Anyone?
 
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Posted: #4
Yawn!
 
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Posted: #5
I wouldn't expect anything from intellectual midget like yourself.

The U.S. has been engaged in this fiscal debt crisis for many years now.

And the aid we give to Israel amounts to upwards of 3 billion dollars a year and 154 billion dollars since Israel's origin. 

But yeah,,,,, I suppose it's just something to yawn about,......
 
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Posted: #6
"But rightfully so as they are no longer a strategic asset to the U.S. and the aid we give them which subsidizes their economy, military power and diplomatic might has remained a huge burden on U.S. taxpayers. As well as the foreign policy that the U.S. pursues and helps Israyel pursue has been detrimental to OUR (United States) and Israyel's well being especially with regards to diplomatic relations with other Arab nations."

Could NOT be further from the truth. But you're an anti-SEmite so what should we expect?

How the United States Benefits from Its Alliance with Israel - Michael Eisenstadt and David Pollock (Washington Institute for Near East Policy)

  • Many of the considerations that provided the rationale for the U.S.-Israel security relationship during the Cold War remain valid today. Israel is a bulwark against radical Islamism as embodied by Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad, and a quiet but effective ally of Jordan.
  • U.S. military equipment pre-positioned in Israel, valued at nearly $1.2 billion, is available to support U.S. contingencies in the eastern Mediterranean and Persian Gulf. Israel continues to serve as a testing ground for advanced weapons and war-fighting concepts, many of which are eventually employed by the U.S.
  • Today, Israeli intelligence remains a major source of information regarding Iran's nuclear program, Hizbullah's global activities, and the activities of al-Qaeda affiliates - and Israeli intelligence operations have helped delay Iran's nuclear program. Israel's comparative advantages include a sustained focus on key hard targets, the cultivation of unique sources and innovative methods, and a willingness to incur risk.
  • There needs to be greater recognition that Israel not only benefits immensely from U.S. support, but also contributes significantly to U.S. interests. Israel's own strength and stability, along with its military, technological, and scientific achievements, enhance the U.S. ability to meet the security, economic, and development requirements (at home and abroad) that are increasingly essential to preserving American prosperity and leadership.

 
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Posted: #7
Israeli armor saves US soldiers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5vHkcpiWuk
 
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Posted: #8
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Posted: #9
Mellowwolf, thanks for pointing out the obvious here.

I hate when people immediately brand you an anti-Semite merely for engaging in discourse regarding U.S. foreign Policy toward Israel.

And I do believe  Israel was an asset to U.S. during the Cold War but NOW they remain a huge liability to our own strategic interests and Israel's strategic interests especially when examining the Palestinian/israeli conflict.


I really thought this thread would generate more discussion....... rick, rooster, djbrow anyone??
 
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Posted: #10
Its obvious that with the "cut/paste union members" this is a touchy subject...

stlin, im not sure if you seek to pick on israel...  It is not like the anti-semetic meltdown that the BMAbob alias had on here a while back...

you bring up a discussion that is difficult for the "midgets" to respond to with a prescribed talking point...

I had an interesting discussion with a guy that was talking about stocks related to production and distribution in the energy today and how the USA might actually might be able to turn the tables on the middle east and start becoming a large producers and distributor...

and with less of an importance in the middle east for dependence on oil the need for meddling in the affairs of countries that are literally half way around the world will decrease and perhaps we can actually act like conservatives and not devote reckless and senseless spending getting involved in crap over there...

and we might see a more clear view on the role of israel and our need to have an ally right in the thick of things...
 
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Posted: #11
Yeah that's thing its like if someone criticizes the NAACP then they are automatically a racist toward black people......

It's so hilarious that this gambling forum is full of such whack jobs.

I wonder what this forum would be like if the politics section cease to exist....
 
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Posted: #12
Quote Originally Posted by Stiln:

I wouldn't expect anything from intellectual midget like yourself.

The U.S. has been engaged in this fiscal debt crisis for many years now.

And the aid we give to Israel amounts to upwards of 3 billion dollars a year and 154 billion dollars since Israel's origin. 

But yeah,,,,, I suppose it's just something to yawn about,......


Looks like I'm not the only yawner on the site.

We give dollars to Egypt and other countries in that region, where is your post about you being up in arms about that.

Perhaps we're friends with Israel because we have a lot of people from there that have become citizens of the US?

Perhaps we're friends with them because because no one else would be?

Sometimes its the right thing to do because if we didn't back Israel up, they would likely be immediate targets of missiles that mean serious business.

I love how you jump the gun and call ME the mindless one, yet you often fail to recognize the bigger picture. SMH

 
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Posted: #13
You're not even worthy of having a discussion about this topic..

Run along little fella, you're comparing the money we give to Israel to the money we give to Egypt... Hahahahaha please run along, not even in the same league.

Perhaps we're friends with them because because no one else would be?Perhaps we're friends with Israel because we have a lot of people from there that have become citizens of the US?

LOL. What?!? that's something an 8th grader would say..

Sometimes its the right thing to do because if we didn't back Israel up, they would likely be immediate targets of missiles that mean serious business.

I'm not saying that if Israel was ever under attack that US shouldn't come to their assistance. But Israel is now 29th in the world in GDP so their is no more reason to give them aid, they are more than capable of taking care of themselves.

And perhaps if the Israeli lobby wasn't so staunch on pushing more aid to israel and ostracizing other arab countries maybe their wouldn't be such a threat to the US and Israel....

Take your neo-con blinders off little boy.
 
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Posted: #14

Its hardly neo-con to suggest that there are strategic reasons why the US might support Israel. Our policy for providing monetary, military, economic, or political support is grounded in numerous reasons and doctrines, one of which being the Haig/Reagan doctrine, for which much of our current support lies (act within our own interests). If anything, the recent political fallouts in the Arab world tell us that support of Israel is vital based on the security and continuation of the same government. One can look in the rear-view mirror and wonder about our past support for Egypt, Syria, Libya, etc. as to its long term benefits.

The main problem in these discussions with you is that you are unable to refocus on examining the issues from an objective standpoint by analyzing from a historica perspective. Surely, anyone can conceed that Israel has committed many mistakes and terrible acts (boarding and turning, rather than searching the ship for Gaza in October being a prime example). But a very basic comparison of the interplay of the Israelis and the Arabs suggests a more lopsided fundamental problem than your anti-Israeli/Jewish posts like to present.

 
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Posted: #15
It's kind of hard to objectively engage in a debate when you have the first response from an idiot that posted the word "yawn" and then followed up with an individual who is most likely an alias whose already branded me an anti-Semite.

First off anti-israel and anti-jewish are not synonmous like you've pointed out, which either proves that you're insinuating that I am somehow prejudice toward person. That couldn't be farther from the truth.

Secondly, I never said that Israel wasn't a strategic asset during the cold war (did you even read post 13, or watch the video) that incorporates the Reagan administration's strong military support of Israel., obviously....... and soviet arms deals with Arab nations and the notion that Israel remained a vital strategic ally during that period.

Lets look at the broad historical picture though as you claim I have never done. First off Israel violated the UN partition plan that would have created two states and unilaterally declared their statehood in 1948.

President Truman decided that it was in the best interest of the U.S. to back Israel because of the horrible actions perpetrated by the Nazi's and rightfully so. However at this time during the late 40s and early 50s both Truman and Eisenhower realized that backing Israel or providing them with aid with jeopardize our relations with many other Arab nations so they opted not to sell weapons or give grants to Israel at this time.

It wasn't until the Kennedy administration when Israel became a strategic asset and the some of the first lump sums of military and economic aid were given to Israel. Which I believe was extremely vital again like I pointed out in post 13 that during the cold war the sale of US weaponry to Israel was crucially important to contain soviet expansion. I am not disputing this and I don't know how you can view me as not being objective here in this thread, I'm not talking about other threads where I may have placed a burden of blame on Israel that it certainly not the whole picture, I get that.

But my very first sentence of post #1 I said,  they are no longer a strategic asset to the U.S implying that they once were....

So lets now move to current time, Israel has still failed to sign the NPT....

In addition to the fact that Israel is now a major military power in the world like I said 29th in per capita income. And yet we don't give any kind of aid to countries that desperately need it like Niger, Burma or Sierra.

Also what I mean be Neo-cons is that, AIPAC is "a loose coalition of noecons, person, etc.... that like any other interest group have an agenda. "

My argument here is that since the 2000 and one could argue since the lat 1990s Israel has been a liability to the United States of America and themselves.

Another practical concern is that we're in debt to china with over trillions of dollars yet we continually give grants, not even loans to a country that is doing better than a great deal of European countries.

Did you even watch the video I linked?
 
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Posted: #16

Quote Originally Posted by Stiln:

It's kind of hard to objectively engage in a debate when you have the first response from an idiot that posted the word "yawn" and then followed up with an individual who is most likely an alias whose already branded me an anti-Semite.

First off anti-israel and anti-jewish are not synonmous like you've pointed out, which either proves that you're insinuating that I am somehow prejudice toward person. That couldn't be farther from the truth.

Secondly, I never said that Israel wasn't a strategic asset during the cold war (did you even read post 13, or watch the video) that incorporates the Reagan administration's strong military support of Israel., obviously....... and soviet arms deals with Arab nations and the notion that Israel remained a vital strategic ally during that period.

Lets look at the broad historical picture though as you claim I have never done. First off Israel violated the UN partition plan that would have created two states and unilaterally declared their statehood in 1948.

President Truman decided that it was in the best interest of the U.S. to back Israel because of the horrible actions perpetrated by the Nazi's and rightfully so. However at this time during the late 40s and early 50s both Truman and Eisenhower realized that backing Israel or providing them with aid with jeopardize our relations with many other Arab nations so they opted not to sell weapons or give grants to Israel at this time.

It wasn't until the Kennedy administration when Israel became a strategic asset and the some of the first lump sums of military and economic aid were given to Israel. Which I believe was extremely vital again like I pointed out in post 13 that during the cold war the sale of US weaponry to Israel was crucially important to contain soviet expansion. I am not disputing this and I don't know how you can view me as not being objective here in this thread, I'm not talking about other threads where I may have placed a burden of blame on Israel that it certainly not the whole picture, I get that.

But my very first sentence of post #1 I said,  they are no longer a strategic asset to the U.S implying that they once were....

So lets now move to current time, Israel has still failed to sign the NPT....

In addition to the fact that Israel is now a major military power in the world like I said 29th in per capita income. And yet we don't give any kind of aid to countries that desperately need it like Niger, Burma or Sierra.

Also what I mean be Neo-cons is that, AIPAC is "a loose coalition of noecons, person, etc.... that like any other interest group have an agenda. "

My argument here is that since the 2000 and one could argue since the lat 1990s Israel has been a liability to the United States of America and themselves.

Another practical concern is that we're in debt to china with over trillions of dollars yet we continually give grants, not even loans to a country that is doing better than a great deal of European countries.

Did you even watch the video I linked?

I could post numerous responsive videos or articles. The idea is that each individual needs to analyze how facts are presented to obtain their own version of reality.

The argument that Israel is a liability is an ironic one. Often people will state that and blame our support of Israel for terrorism. I always cringe when this argument is raised. Couldn't the same thought process be used to suggest that our support for the allies led to our war with the axis?

To understand the current problems in the land dispute, one needs to look no further than the actual West Bank. Interestingly, people living there are far less concerned about the governance, and far more concerned with normal life. Yet, the Palestinians have stated specifically that they will uproot current towns and settlements. These are actual people that will have their lives shattered, and for what?

Your historical recitiation reads like a Palestinian dissertation. Truman's decisions were done so based on the large number of refugees who were unwelcomed in Europe and, yes, the US.  

But going back to your statement about strategic support....we have tried the strategic support for unstable countries..and watched Americans killed by US weapons and US dollars. This does not seem to work. To quote the Sopranos, we are forced to go all in, or not at all.

Again, we support plenty of wealthy countries. In that region, Israel is wealthy. And the most stable. And thus, in our strategic interest that they remain that way.

 
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Posted: #17
DJBROW
 
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Posted: #18
Quote Originally Posted by djbrow:

I could post numerous responsive videos or articles. The idea is that each individual needs to analyze how facts are presented to obtain their own version of reality.

The argument that Israel is a liability is an ironic one. Often people will state that and blame our support of Israel for terrorism. I always cringe when this argument is raised. Couldn't the same thought process be used to suggest that our support for the allies led to our war with the axis?

To understand the current problems in the land dispute, one needs to look no further than the actual West Bank. Interestingly, people living there are far less concerned about the governance, and far more concerned with normal life. Yet, the Palestinians have stated specifically that they will uproot current towns and settlements. These are actual people that will have their lives shattered, and for what?

Your historical recitiation reads like a Palestinian dissertation. Truman's decisions were done so based on the large number of refugees who were unwelcomed in Europe and, yes, the US.  

But going back to your statement about strategic support....we have tried the strategic support for unstable countries..and watched Americans killed by US weapons and US dollars. This does not seem to work. To quote the Sopranos, we are forced to go all in, or not at all.

Again, we support plenty of wealthy countries. In that region, Israel is wealthy. And the most stable. And thus, in our strategic interest that they remain that way.



I love you evade nearly all of my points and then claim that I'm somehow purporting a Palestinian propaganda piece...I'm trying hard not to insult you but you've made some pretty unfounded claims that I find extremely disrespectful and ignorant. I'm not a prejudice individual nor do i discriminate against any group. Also you seem to think my entire argument is based off the fact that because we the US are subject to terrorism, as a result of supporting Israel. That's as juvenile as the fool who claimed I was an Anti-semite.

Yeah well, I posted a video from these guys because these two men are some of the most brilliant minds when it comes to international security. You could very well post some stuff from fox news or even a scholarly source but Daniel Levy one of the most well respected journalists of the Haaertz proclaimed that this book is "An important one that deserves to be keenly debated"...

What strikes me the most about you and a lot of other Americans, and as the two authors pointed out, this book and the article that led to a book was published outside of the US, in the LRB has received an overwhelming amount of support in many European countries. And even from top military leaders within Israel so in fact Americans who support giving continuous aid to Israel are in the minority.  In addition to countless polls from the Pew research center.


I'm not saying that can you blame the terrorism due to our support of Israel, but what I am saying is that you certainly can't dismiss this fact. Like you seem to do.

So you think that support for Israel plays no role in America's terrorism problem or the growing anti-Americanism in the Arab and Islamic World, and ending the Israeli-Palestinian  conflict or making US support for Israel more selective or conditional  would not help??

So therefore Washington's politicians should provide consistent deference to the Israeli governments?

Additionally the aid that we provide to Israel should give them a free hand to do whatever it is they want with it. Also Washington politicians should not press Israel to discuss the settlements and dismantling them??

I'm dead on with regards to the Truman comment.... Harry and his administration knew about the fact that FDR had knowledge the that extermination of person was going on and could have bombed railroad tracks to save possibly hundreds of thousands of person.... Why do you think Truman supported the state of Israel but he knew exactly how horribly the person had been treated. That's such a basic interpretation of the events.

I'm yet to see one counter point that actually addresses my argument and the arguments put forth in their book.

Here's my argument, the aid we give to Israel should be slowly reduced and given to them on a conditional basis based on their behavior towards the Palestinians and they should be be rewarded for violating International Law, Customary Law, and human rights..

I have never said that we should un ally Israel, which is what I think you're getting at with regards to my argument

We support tons of wealthy countries. Um ok... So what? Not nearly to the extent that we do to Israel. How do you not understand that simple fact.

You negated many facts like Israel NOT signing on to the NPT, their reckless use of cluster munitions, overwhelming American support to tone down aid to Israel, yet I'm somehow not being objective here?

I'm being extremely objective and you're simply bashing my arguments with broad strokes thinking you're somehow refuting every claim with a vague point that AIPAC spits out everyday to our politicians.


This is the source of anti-Americanism I referenced.

https://www.gloria-center.org/meria/2003/12/abdallah.pdf
 
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Posted: #19
Quote Originally Posted by kaponofor3:

DJBROW


So this is a question to you and djbrow then because it seems like you think I'm somehow in the wrong here after posting that...

What part of my argument do you disagree with or do you just think that the US should continue to give Israel 4 billion dollars a year unconditionally with virtually no oversight into where that money is funneled??
 
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Posted: #20

Quote Originally Posted by Stiln:



I love you evade nearly all of my points and then claim that I'm somehow purporting a Palestinian propaganda piece...I'm trying hard not to insult you but you've made some pretty unfounded claims that I find extremely disrespectful and ignorant. I'm not a prejudice individual nor do i discriminate against any group. Also you seem to think my entire argument is based off the fact that because we the US are subject to terrorism, as a result of supporting Israel. That's as juvenile as the fool who claimed I was an Anti-semite.

Yeah well, I posted a video from these guys because these two men are some of the most brilliant minds when it comes to international security. You could very well post some stuff from fox news or even a scholarly source but Daniel Levy one of the most well respected journalists of the Haaertz proclaimed that this book is "An important one that deserves to be keenly debated"...

What strikes me the most about you and a lot of other Americans, and as the two authors pointed out, this book and the article that led to a book was published outside of the US, in the LRB has received an overwhelming amount of support in many European countries. And even from top military leaders within Israel so in fact Americans who support giving continuous aid to Israel are in the minority.  In addition to countless polls from the Pew research center.


I'm not saying that can you blame the terrorism due to our support of Israel, but what I am saying is that you certainly can't dismiss this fact. Like you seem to do.

So you think that support for Israel plays no role in America's terrorism problem or the growing anti-Americanism in the Arab and Islamic World, and ending the Israeli-Palestinian  conflict or making US support for Israel more selective or conditional  would not help??

So therefore Washington's politicians should provide consistent deference to the Israeli governments?

Additionally the aid that we provide to Israel should give them a free hand to do whatever it is they want with it. Also Washington politicians should not press Israel to discuss the settlements and dismantling them??

I'm dead on with regards to the Truman comment.... Harry and his administration knew about the fact that FDR had knowledge the that extermination of person was going on and could have bombed railroad tracks to save possibly hundreds of thousands of person.... Why do you think Truman supported the state of Israel but he knew exactly how horribly the person had been treated. That's such a basic interpretation of the events.

I'm yet to see one counter point that actually addresses my argument and the arguments put forth in their book.

Here's my argument, the aid we give to Israel should be slowly reduced and given to them on a conditional basis based on their behavior towards the Palestinians and they should be be rewarded for violating International Law, Customary Law, and human rights..

I have never said that we should un ally Israel, which is what I think you're getting at with regards to my argument

We support tons of wealthy countries. Um ok... So what? Not nearly to the extent that we do to Israel. How do you not understand that simple fact.

You negated many facts like Israel NOT signing on to the NPT, their reckless use of cluster munitions, overwhelming American support to tone down aid to Israel, yet I'm somehow not being objective here?

I'm being extremely objective and you're simply bashing my arguments with broad strokes thinking you're somehow refuting every claim with a vague point that AIPAC spits out everyday to our politicians.


This is the source of anti-Americanism I referenced.

https://www.gloria-center.org/meria/2003/12/abdallah.pdf

Funny, you cannot cite one unfounded claim. Not one. And the statement about Palestinian propaganda piece is quite self-evident.

You have taken a video with one very narrow perspective, you have stated that Truman solely supported Israel because of the holocaust, and your posts are consistantly critical of Israel.

I have made many statements (including in this thread) where I have been critical of certain actions of Israel. Can you say the same about Israel's enemies?

You continue to bring up the NPT and I can explain that having been there and by the Palestinians stated plans to the Jewish settlements in the area. Don't forget...I have been to thise settlements.

And yes, I understand that you believe it is far more important to provide military aid and money to unstable countries. I get that. I guess we will just disagree on that. Lucky for me, I have historical consequences as my backing.

 
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Posted: #21
Stiln will try to get you Sids autograph if I get the chance tonight
 
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Posted: #22
Quote Originally Posted by djbrow:

Funny, you cannot cite one unfounded claim. Not one. And the statement about Palestinian propaganda piece is quite self-evident.

You have taken a video with one very narrow perspective, you have stated that Truman solely supported Israel because of the holocaust, and your posts are consistantly critical of Israel.

I have made many statements (including in this thread) where I have been critical of certain actions of Israel. Can you say the same about Israel's enemies?

You continue to bring up the NPT and I can explain that having been there and by the Palestinians stated plans to the Jewish settlements in the area. Don't forget...I have been to thise settlements.

And yes, I understand that you believe it is far more important to provide military aid and money to unstable countries. I get that. I guess we will just disagree on that. Lucky for me, I have historical consequences as my backing.


My posts have been critical of Israel that doesn’t necessarily translate into a Palestinian propaganda piece. You’re deductive reasoning is astounding. My argument to reduce aid to Israel is based on a variety of components that are: Israel is no longer a strategic asset to the US, the moral case to support Israel with military and economic aid is no longer valid anymore as a majority of Americans overwhelmingly agree with this position, the Israeli’s mal treatment of the Palestinians, US politicians succumbing to Jewish interest groups that have are ALSO detrimental to Israeli’s interest’s to name a few…. So this is not limited to your simplistic version of me being anti-jewish.

This video is hardly a narrow perspective. These individuals are some of the most well respected men in international politics that this country has ever seen. And they seem to be some of the first scholars in this modern age to question this consistent deference of politicians in Washington toward granting aid to Israel. Are my posts constantly critical of Israel, sure… But are 14’s posts constantly critical of Obama, are canov’s posts constantly critical of Obama, are sarasotaslim’s posts constantly critical of Obama, are rush51’s posts constantly critical of Obama, are bowslits posts constantly critical of unions, are beeasy’s posts constantly critical of religion, are ricks posts constantly in support of less gun control, are cd’s posts constantly in favor of unions…. I could go on and on. There are many posters here who focus on one area of politics, how is that so damn shocking to you?? But I suppose you’ll argue that all of those individuals are able to think clearly about those topics, right and criticize both sides, right??

Still waiting for an honest keyed response from you that doesn’t involve any personal or condescending attacks regarding these comments I made…So you think that support for Israel plays no role in America's terrorism problem or the growing anti-Americanism in the Arab and Islamic World, and ending the Israeli-Palestinian conflict or making US support for Israel more selective or conditional  would not help??

I also never said that was Trumans support of the Israeli state was based SOLEY on the idea that the US should because of the holocaust. What do you think the purpose of helping refugees is, to help those individuals that were left in a very vulnerable situation due to the horror of the Nazis.  If you think that’s what I implied that Nixons support of the statehood of ISrael, then I’m sorry I mislead you there. But it certainly played a huge role.   And its just another way in which you’re unable to objectively understand that a few years later the US who rescued the Je ws from the Nazi’s couldn’t have possible supported Israel for this reason of sympathy. (sarcasm)…… Are you kidding me??

That’s funny, now you’ve decided to try and portray yourself as some kind of intelligence expert because you’ve been to Israel..Owww.. I’ve been to Israel twice so does that make me worthy of engaging in this discussion? My best friend is in fact jewish and I get into arguments with him about this topic all the time but he’s able to acknowledge that I raise some pressing concerns with regards to a variety of aspects in terms of aid and the US foreign policy agendas. So it’s okay for us to tell Iran not to research and obtain nuclear warheads yet we shouldn’t even do reports on the Israeli nuclear programs because if you think we do then you are horribly mistaken. The amount of leniency that our politicians grant to Israel in countless ways is frightening. Do you know why that is? Because of the strong influence of the Israel Lobby… Before you even try to discredit this idea. Let’s use some examples: can one engage in a discussion about guns without including the NRA in this discussion, no! Can one engage in a discussion about our relations with the Cuba without bringing up the Cuban interest groups, no…….. etc.. etc…

Again, your deductive reasoning is so awful. I’m absolutely flabbergasted.. How does my assertion that we should cut aid to Israel translate to giving money to unstable countries, if that’s what you’re asserting? I’m saying that we should keep a more even-handed approach and not favor one country over another in the Middle East. You can’t seem to grasp this level-headed argument that I’ve put forth. You still remain stuck in bringing up my long history of posting critical threads of Israel, and I think that you’re unable to view my posts in an objective lens rather than this post of mine  which is truly objective.

 
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Posted: #23
Quote Originally Posted by gers:

Stiln will try to get you Sids autograph if I get the chance tonight


Hahahaha.. f  you!

Good win tonight though, saw the highlights, you guys were down 2-0 after 1pd... nice bounce back.

no one commented in this thread i made a while ago... funniest garbage.

https://i.imgur.com/h0VCQ.jpg



 
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Posted: #24
Quote Originally Posted by Stiln:


My posts have been critical of Israel that doesn’t necessarily translate into a Palestinian propaganda piece. You’re deductive reasoning is astounding. My argument to reduce aid to Israel is based on a variety of components that are: Israel is no longer a strategic asset to the US, the moral case to support Israel with military and economic aid is no longer valid anymore as a majority of Americans overwhelmingly agree with this position, the Israeli’s mal treatment of the Palestinians, US politicians succumbing to Jewish interest groups that have are ALSO detrimental to Israeli’s interest’s to name a few…. So this is not limited to your simplistic version of me being anti-jewish.

This video is hardly a narrow perspective. These individuals are some of the most well respected men in international politics that this country has ever seen. And they seem to be some of the first scholars in this modern age to question this consistent deference of politicians in Washington toward granting aid to Israel. Are my posts constantly critical of Israel, sure… But are 14’s posts constantly critical of Obama, are canov’s posts constantly critical of Obama, are sarasotaslim’s posts constantly critical of Obama, are rush51’s posts constantly critical of Obama, are bowslits posts constantly critical of unions, are beeasy’s posts constantly critical of religion, are ricks posts constantly in support of less gun control, are cd’s posts constantly in favor of unions…. I could go on and on. There are many posters here who focus on one area of politics, how is that so damn shocking to you?? But I suppose you’ll argue that all of those individuals are able to think clearly about those topics, right and criticize both sides, right??

Still waiting for an honest keyed response from you that doesn’t involve any personal or condescending attacks regarding these comments I made…So you think that support for Israel plays no role in America's terrorism problem or the growing anti-Americanism in the Arab and Islamic World, and ending the Israeli-Palestinian conflict or making US support for Israel more selective or conditional  would not help??

I also never said that was Trumans support of the Israeli state was based SOLEY on the idea that the US should because of the holocaust. What do you think the purpose of helping refugees is, to help those individuals that were left in a very vulnerable situation due to the horror of the Nazis.  If you think that’s what I implied that Nixons support of the statehood of ISrael, then I’m sorry I mislead you there. But it certainly played a huge role.   And its just another way in which you’re unable to objectively understand that a few years later the US who rescued the Je ws from the Nazi’s couldn’t have possible supported Israel for this reason of sympathy. (sarcasm)…… Are you kidding me??

That’s funny, now you’ve decided to try and portray yourself as some kind of intelligence expert because you’ve been to Israel..Owww.. I’ve been to Israel twice so does that make me worthy of engaging in this discussion? My best friend is in fact jewish and I get into arguments with him about this topic all the time but he’s able to acknowledge that I raise some pressing concerns with regards to a variety of aspects in terms of aid and the US foreign policy agendas. So it’s okay for us to tell Iran not to research and obtain nuclear warheads yet we shouldn’t even do reports on the Israeli nuclear programs because if you think we do then you are horribly mistaken. The amount of leniency that our politicians grant to Israel in countless ways is frightening. Do you know why that is? Because of the strong influence of the Israel Lobby… Before you even try to discredit this idea. Let’s use some examples: can one engage in a discussion about guns without including the NRA in this discussion, no! Can one engage in a discussion about our relations with the Cuba without bringing up the Cuban interest groups, no…….. etc.. etc…

Again, your deductive reasoning is so awful. I’m absolutely flabbergasted.. How does my assertion that we should cut aid to Israel translate to giving money to unstable countries, if that’s what you’re asserting? I’m saying that we should keep a more even-handed approach and not favor one country over another in the Middle East. You can’t seem to grasp this level-headed argument that I’ve put forth. You still remain stuck in bringing up my long history of posting critical threads of Israel, and I think that you’re unable to view my posts in an objective lens rather than this post of mine  which is truly objective.

I have to give you props. It is hard to draft such a lengthy dissertation and not make one factual point. Not one. In fact, the only factual claim you made in your whole response is a complete lie.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/majority-of-americans-support-israels-operation-in-gaza/

https://www.timesofisrael.com/americans-support-for-israel-grows-in-wake-of-arab-spring-poll-reveals/

I know I know. Because you say it and think it, it must be true.

And obviously, any support of Israel must be a result of the Jewish lobby. I mean, all those Republican person have such influence and power. It couldn't at all be based on the strategic location of Israel, or the stablity of its government in such an unstable region.

And I understand your argument that we should have an even-handed approach to foreign policy. I mean, why should we favor Britain over Venezuela or Japan over North Korea? We should be even-handed to all. Or perhaps you are just suggesting as it relates to Israel and Iran? I wonder why you would make the distinction, I mean given that your best friend is Jewish and all. Why even say that? Do you feel guilty about your inner hatred of person?

Before you continue making ridiculous claims about US foreign policy, you should try and read a book on the reasons behind aid. I suggest something rudementary that would coincide with your limited understanding of how it works.

 
 
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Joined: Dec, 2010
Posts: 6431
Posted: #25
Quote Originally Posted by djbrow:

I have to give you props. It is hard to draft such a lengthy dissertation and not make one factual point. Not one. In fact, the only factual claim you made in your whole response is a complete lie.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/majority-of-americans-support-israels-operation-in-gaza/

https://www.timesofisrael.com/americans-support-for-israel-grows-in-wake-of-arab-spring-poll-reveals/

I know I know. Because you say it and think it, it must be true.

And obviously, any support of Israel must be a result of the Jewish lobby. I mean, all those Republican person have such influence and power. It couldn't at all be based on the strategic location of Israel, or the stablity of its government in such an unstable region.

And I understand your argument that we should have an even-handed approach to foreign policy. I mean, why should we favor Britain over Venezuela or Japan over North Korea? We should be even-handed to all. Or perhaps you are just suggesting as it relates to Israel and Iran? I wonder why you would make the distinction, I mean given that your best friend is Jewish and all. Why even say that? Do you feel guilty about your inner hatred of person?

Before you continue making ridiculous claims about US foreign policy, you should try and read a book on the reasons behind aid. I suggest something rudementary that would coincide with your limited understanding of how it works.


It's absolutely hysterical how you have not addressed one point of mine. I guess I now fully understand why steveshane has been so critical of you among others. You have not painted one broadly even reliable source that would assume you have any remote idea what it is you're asserting. You ought to stick to arguing your petty domestic policies with 14

First you made the claim that I am anti-Jewish, and then you went on to try and prove me Truman comment as wrong which it is actually so self-evidently true.  You blew off my NPT comment which is extremely important, you again discredited that any aid to Israel couldn’t possibly be fueling anti-Americanism which in fact it has and then you go on to say that “I can explain that having been there and by the Palestinians stated plans to the Jewish settlements in the area. Don't forget...I have been to these settlements.” So this supposed to be the focus your argument. You’re pathetic.

You're unable to debate with me because you're too caught up marginalizing my previous threads about how I've pointed out how Israel is grossly in violation of specific individual human rights, however this thread looks at the bigger picture and you simply discredit all of my points with a broad stroke of absolute bs...
US has provided upwards of 154 billions dollars most of which is direct grants not loans.  FACT.  Which equates to $500 per capita Egypt being the next recipient receiving $20 per person. FACT

https://pdf.usaid.gov/pdf_docs/PNADH500.pdf

Israel unilaterally declared statehood violating the UN partition that would declared two states. FACT

Israel expanded into more than 75% of Palestinian land engaging in ethnic cleansing and the UN  General Assembly  adopted resolution 194.... Israel again violated this and has never recognized the Palestinians refugees right to return...FACT

US has no oversight on the way in which Israel used this money we grant them. FACT

The Nixon/Kissinger strategy to back Israel which led to the US overlooking many attempts at peaceful opportunities with former Egyptian president Anwar Sadat tries to cut a deal in 1971-1972.  According to Secretary of State this agreement would have surely avoided the 1973 War.  FACT

https://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3011393?uid=3739840&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21101710958537

UN General Assembly Resolution 59/124 "Israeli practices affecting human rights of Palestinian people" passed by a vote of 149-7.  Among the nations supported the resolution were Japan, Germany, France, China  and Great Britain. Those opposed Israel, Australia, Marshall Islands, the US and a couple others.....  FACT

Countless notable defense experts inside of Israel and at various institutions have pointed out that Israel is a strategic liability.  

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/48213/bernard-lewis/rethinking-the-middle-east

Yet you somehow think that the VAST array of civic organizations that attempt to push Israeli foreign policy NOT the US is small and unworthy? You’re saying not any of these groups have any influence at all?? AIPAC, IPF, ADL, ZOA etc..

Do you know anything about interest groups and their power??

Lastly it is hardly unpopular news that US backing for Israel is unpopular elsewhere in the world. People like yourself who think that Israel and the US are unified by a collective terrorist threat have the causal relationship backwards.  You can’t seem to grasp this basic idea.

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