Yeah, but they are great coordinators and where else do you look. Raheem Morris was extremely young and inexperienced when he got that job. Todd Bowles has actually been one of the better Jets coaches in recent memory. It's the Jets
Thing I get/understand is that the pay scale for HCs is way more than an O/D Coordinator's salary. Average salary for OCs is $1M and for DCs it's about $900K.
thesportsrush.com (Jun21): At a time when there is much debate over how much athletes and coaches should be paid, it is natural to wonder how much NFL head coaches earn in general. Here’s what the numbers tell us:
The remaining 7 coaches are mainly newly appointed ones, so the financial aspect of their contracts is still a mystery. However, coaches like Matt Nagy and Sean McDermott’s salaries are simply not publicly available.
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Todd Bowles had a very good first year (10-6) with the Jets in 2015, then it went downhill (4-11, 5-11, 4-12 in 2016-18), and I can't recall exactly why. Lifelong NY Giants guy but I did watch some Jets on Sundays when Giants were late/early, etc. and it's mostly like Stu said - they're the Jets.
How many really good OCs and DCs have we seen that take HC jobs and they're in over their heads within a year; the list is long with highly recognizable names. If it's just the money - and they all probably get nice guarantees of full payouts unless they're fired for off-field stuff - then okay go for it. But if they have families that they uproot when kids are at that age of making friends, being in schools they like, towns they like, etc, etc...then I don't know what the answer is.
Being a really good OC or DC, being recognized as such, liking the living situation, being with a solid team that's gonna make the playoffs just about every year, and you're making $1MIL (maybe more with incentives)...that seems like a nice balance, knowing you're not responsible for everything 24/7. This is what I'm saying for a guy with a wife and kids.
If it's a single guy that hasn't put down roots yet, then hell, I'd be looking to make the big bucks, too - and expect to be fired more than likely lol. The average life span of an NFL HC is down to 3.2 years...was 4.3 years back in 2016. And in the last decade only 3 HCs have kept their jobs for more than 10 years [guidingmetrics.com]
This conversation reminds me of the movie American History X, a movie about a white supremacist who changes his life around. If you never saw it, watch it. My point is that they have a conversation at the dinner table one night and the father (a cop) explains to his son that 2 black guys got jobs as officers over 2 white guys that scored higher on the test, because they had to have more black officers. And he says "Is this what America is all about? No. America is about the best man for the job. You do your best, you get the job."
Every time this conversation comes up in sports or anywhere else I always refer to that movie scene. I'm not a racist, and I don't care how many black or white coaches are in the NFL. I just don't understand the push to have more black coaches. Does it really matter? Being a coach is about being a leader of a group and making them believe that they can be the best. What does race have to do with that?
Don’t you love that you have to clarify that you’re not a racist to disagree with affirmative action.
what’s racist is the fact that the league and the gvmnt think “minorities” cant do it themselves and need extra help.
should always be best man for the job.
OR WOMAN!
It’s so sexist that they’re not required to interview women !
You guys seem to be misunderstanding the nature of the Rooney Rule. First of all, the Rooney Rule just says you have to interview a person of color, or woman, etc. It doesn't guarantee anyone a job. There is no limit to the number of people a team can interview so this narrative of "the more qualified candidate being passed over... Affirmative Action hires..." is just total B.S. I can think of at least three minority coordinators who will be interviewing for head coaching positions this off season. They'll be considered because they are successful coordinators. Not because of the Rooney Rule.
This brings me to my next point. The hiring process for head coaching isn't really the issue. Teams tend to hire successful NFL coordinators and college coaches. So who are given these assistant coaching, coordinator, and college positions? The hiring of coaches has never been based solely on merit. It's never even really been based mostly on merit. It's typically based on cronyism and nepotism. Guys hire their buddies. Guys hire their kids. McVey and Baby Shan have both proven themselves worthy head coaches, and they're two of my favorites, but they were both set on a fast track based on who their families are. Hell, if Andy Reid's bonehead kid doesn't drink and drive, Andy would have stuck around just long enough to groom him and slowly promote him up through the system until he achieved the position of offensive coordinator. And then Andy would've just handed him the reigns. And the organization would've just went along with it. I mean, what has Andy Reid's kid done to deserve any NFL coaching position besides not overdose.
So crying about the Rooney Rule is a joke, especially given that it doesn't even guarantee anyone a job. Teams are free to hire whomever they choose.
@StumpTownStu
I do understand everything you are saying. The point made is that an modern day America it is absolutely ridiculous to even have a rule that makes you feel that you have to interview anybody of any certain skin color. As we continue to make the "minority" races of the world feel that they deserve a pat on the back for any reason is insanity. This country is the prime example of work hard and you will succeed. Time to wake up and just treat everyone as equals. No breaks for anyone in 2022.
@StumpTownStu
I do understand everything you are saying. The point made is that an modern day America it is absolutely ridiculous to even have a rule that makes you feel that you have to interview anybody of any certain skin color. As we continue to make the "minority" races of the world feel that they deserve a pat on the back for any reason is insanity. This country is the prime example of work hard and you will succeed. Time to wake up and just treat everyone as equals. No breaks for anyone in 2022.
It's funny what you guys choose to be triggered by. The Rooney Rule has zero effect on hiring if coaches, or football in general. There has never been a person to miss out on an opportunity, or be passed over for a position, because of the Rooney Rule. It's window dressing. Guys are in here quoting fictional movies as if they are telling it like it is.
"It's only gonna get worse..."
Fucking drama queens.
This country in the prime example of it's not what you know, it's who you know.
Where is Mike Tomlin's coaching tree??? Reid has one, Belichick of course...so he is not in their class? No, he isn't...he is not an Xs and Os guy...smooth speeches are his thang. No losing seasons with Ben and no playoff wins since 2016 and no Superbowl wins since 2008...a bunch of participation trophies...team 2022 is ready to tank on runway 'Titanic'.
Mike Tomlin should draft an all Oriental offensive team with a Mr. Miyagi type OC who runs a "karate-chop" offense. This will give the steelers a very interesting story-line for the rigged NFL to exploit and guarantee tremendous success. The 1974 classic "kung-fu fighting" could be the new Steelers' fight song.
Quotes that show many viewpoints on this:
"This is an interesting discussion. I'm kind of hi-jacking what Thorn said, but it seems to me that most of these coaching "trees" can be attributed to a system, maybe even more so than to the head coach. I'm not sure NFL coaches are in the business to develop their coaches with goal being that those coaches go on to bigger and better things. I could be wrong, but I think college coaches do a better job of intentionally developing their coaches towards advancement. Like I said, interesting discussion."
Richard Mann was at the top of his game as a position coach. He was going to retire or did retire when mt made the call for help. Mann came in with the premise that it would only last so long. They had history. In stepped drake, another coach with a well thought of coaching history already in the league. His was cut short as we know. Ray Sherman was given a shot by mt for restarting his advancement in the league again with an internship. As we know he took over for drake last year. It was never to be more then a stepping stone for him before that. Ike Hilliard as an up and coming coach was hired.
James Daniels has been here for quite awhile and will retire soon from this stabile situation with the steelers. He also has history with mt. He also brought many years as a top coach at his position.
Many hires have been long time top of their position type coaches with history somewhere in the past or just feel Pittsburgh is a fine organization to work for as many players feel too.
Butler and fichtner have advanced inside the organization but also have history with mt. The hires that don't have history with him are coaches advancing from college to here. Faulkner, canada, sarrett, klem, austin, Bradley, Dunbar, and young new assistants martin, symmes, Stewart. MT has advanced these coaches from the college ranks to the pro's but they have also stepped into a very stabile organization, so why leave.
Mike Shannahan was brought in a few years back and interned with the steelers in camp like Sherman did to help advance their careers. At least allowing them to stay current. Sherman happened to call into a situation that was unforeseen for a year. Shanahan went and found a coaching job. Munch left for personal reasons.
To end, we don't know how it will turn out for the younger coaches that have been hired from the college ranks as assistants. With the stability of this organization, usually advancement here from within happens quite often so why leave?"
"This is an interesting discussion. I'm kind of hi-jacking what Thorn said, but it seems to me that most of these coaching "trees" can be attributed to a system, maybe even more so than to the head coach. I'm not sure NFL coaches are in the business to develop their coaches with goal being that those coaches go on to bigger and better things. I could be wrong, but I think college coaches do a better job of intentionally developing their coaches towards advancement. Like I said, interesting discussion.
This topic has always been around with Tomlin. Some good points are always made. Maybe it is a system more than a coach that makes team's assistants more appealing. A point can be made, for example, that Brady made that whole organization look more appealing than they should have been.
Maybe there is something to be said for staying with a solid organization.
All Tomlin does is win and seem to keep his team together and is a good motivator.
It will be interesting to see how he does with a new QB, etc.
Anyways the question asked to start the thread was is it healthy for football? In my opinion it isn't healthy for football to bring race into any part of any conversation. There is whites and blacks together making millions and millions of dollars because of this game. I'd be happy to be either one.
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