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    All Forums | Investments

    Who likes SILVER?

    «First Previous 1234 Next Last»
    AmazingMike
    SportsFan9698
    be easy
    woopdurritis
    mikego
    ...
    Participants:
    Search
    Views: 5209
    Posts: 92
    «First Previous 1234 Next Last»
     
    AmazingMike
    AmazingMike
    Prospect
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    Joined: Feb, 2007
    Posts: 468
    Posted: Nov. 5, 2010 - 3:30 AM ET #26

    Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:

    SportsFan,

    You are miring yourself in the present, this kind of thinking is flawed and is why the market is smarter than most of us.

    The market will not keep pushing commodities higher and higher just because we are currently in an easing cycle. This is probably the largest ammt of easing in our history, but I disagree that it continues forever..this cycle will take longer to reverse itself, but unless you think the end of the world is upon us (which I do not) then this economic condition will change, it will and that is why I think the bubble will pop..I dont know when it will pop but it will.

    I sat for multiple years during the Bush reign of terror wondering when the cycle would turn and we would stop the artificial economic boom we experienced..we should have turned down about the start of his second term, but with the scamming and lack of regulation to the markets, plus the FED keeping rates low, we extended the cycle probably 3 yrs longer than it should have, so I would expect the current cycle to take that long or longer to start reversing..

    Dont fall in love with commodities, dont fall in love with any stock or financial instrument, that will be the quickest way you lose money, and before you know what happened it could all be gone.

    A few of us have seen bubbles, been part of bubbles and know the damage they cause and how fast it happens.

    Just keep a price in mind that you bail, take profits and dont look back.

    Reply

    Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:

    SportsFan,

    You are miring yourself in the present, this kind of thinking is flawed and is why the market is smarter than most of us.

    The market will not keep pushing commodities higher and higher just because we are currently in an easing cycle. This is probably the largest ammt of easing in our history, but I disagree that it continues forever..this cycle will take longer to reverse itself, but unless you think the end of the world is upon us (which I do not) then this economic condition will change, it will and that is why I think the bubble will pop..I dont know when it will pop but it will.

    I sat for multiple years during the Bush reign of terror wondering when the cycle would turn and we would stop the artificial economic boom we experienced..we should have turned down about the start of his second term, but with the scamming and lack of regulation to the markets, plus the FED keeping rates low, we extended the cycle probably 3 yrs longer than it should have, so I would expect the current cycle to take that long or longer to start reversing..

    Dont fall in love with commodities, dont fall in love with any stock or financial instrument, that will be the quickest way you lose money, and before you know what happened it could all be gone.

    A few of us have seen bubbles, been part of bubbles and know the damage they cause and how fast it happens.

    Just keep a price in mind that you bail, take profits and dont look back.

     
    SportsFan9698
    SportsFan9698
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    Posts: 5575
    Posted: Nov. 5, 2010 - 9:46 AM ET #27

    $26 spot price
    Reply
    $26 spot price
     
    SportsFan9698
    SportsFan9698
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    Posted: Nov. 5, 2010 - 10:36 AM ET #28

    Quote Originally Posted by woopdurritis:

    SportsFan... you said you buy your silver on EBay?  I noticed it is selling there over the listed price... Do you tend to pay more than it is worth hoping for gain?

    I think you are twisting what I said.  I said I have bought my silver bullion (1 oz rounds) on ebay.  I have always managed to buy at spot or lower including shipping costs.  Yes I'm aware the majority of listing are priced over spot, but I'm not buying those.

    Yes I buy in anticipation of it going higher... is that really a question?

     

    Reply

    Quote Originally Posted by woopdurritis:

    SportsFan... you said you buy your silver on EBay?  I noticed it is selling there over the listed price... Do you tend to pay more than it is worth hoping for gain?

    I think you are twisting what I said.  I said I have bought my silver bullion (1 oz rounds) on ebay.  I have always managed to buy at spot or lower including shipping costs.  Yes I'm aware the majority of listing are priced over spot, but I'm not buying those.

    Yes I buy in anticipation of it going higher... is that really a question?

     

     
    SportsFan9698
    SportsFan9698
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    Posts: 5575
    Posted: Nov. 5, 2010 - 2:10 PM ET #29

    $26.50 now

    This run is crazy

    Reply

    $26.50 now

    This run is crazy

     
    be easy
    be easy
    MVP
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Oct, 2006
    Posts: 15433
    Posted: Nov. 5, 2010 - 6:47 PM ET #30

    Quote Originally Posted by woopdurritis:

    SportsFan... you said you buy your silver on EBay?  I noticed it is selling there over the listed price... Do you tend to pay more than it is worth hoping for gain?


    It depends your reason for purchasing and your desired outcome, that should choose your vehicle for you. I began buying coins in the low teens from a local dealer, they usually price them at a premium of 1.50$ over spot, not sure if this is fixed or if it's by % because it would be more expensive now if it's %. when Ag was 12-13$ eagles went for 14-15$ish at the local dealer. Check your local yellow pages, there will be an authorized dealer for american silver eagles if that's the route you choose. I bought most all of my silver in eagles, but my gameplan for silver is/was not as much investment but a safety measure in case the whole system breaks down, which is why i wanted eagles because for some reason i guess they'd be easier to identify and more likely to be trusted as authentic

    If you're just looking to get in as a gamble, do as Koaj suggested back when the markets first crashed and buy SLV . Not my cup of tea, but to each their own, it should yield the same desired effect, and the transaction cost is less, but you're not holding the silver in your hand, which is kinda fun
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by woopdurritis:

    SportsFan... you said you buy your silver on EBay?  I noticed it is selling there over the listed price... Do you tend to pay more than it is worth hoping for gain?


    It depends your reason for purchasing and your desired outcome, that should choose your vehicle for you. I began buying coins in the low teens from a local dealer, they usually price them at a premium of 1.50$ over spot, not sure if this is fixed or if it's by % because it would be more expensive now if it's %. when Ag was 12-13$ eagles went for 14-15$ish at the local dealer. Check your local yellow pages, there will be an authorized dealer for american silver eagles if that's the route you choose. I bought most all of my silver in eagles, but my gameplan for silver is/was not as much investment but a safety measure in case the whole system breaks down, which is why i wanted eagles because for some reason i guess they'd be easier to identify and more likely to be trusted as authentic

    If you're just looking to get in as a gamble, do as Koaj suggested back when the markets first crashed and buy SLV . Not my cup of tea, but to each their own, it should yield the same desired effect, and the transaction cost is less, but you're not holding the silver in your hand, which is kinda fun
     
    be easy
    be easy
    MVP
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Oct, 2006
    Posts: 15433
    Posted: Nov. 5, 2010 - 6:48 PM ET #31

    Quote Originally Posted by Vermeer:

    It will be interesting to watch the carnage as Ben Bernanke commands the world to get richer. Who knew it was soooo easy to make people richer, by simply debasing their currency?

     


    Alan Greenspans Wealth Effect is the action that leads us to
    Ben bernanke (deflation won't happen here) edition of the wealth effect reaction


    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by Vermeer:

    It will be interesting to watch the carnage as Ben Bernanke commands the world to get richer. Who knew it was soooo easy to make people richer, by simply debasing their currency?

     


    Alan Greenspans Wealth Effect is the action that leads us to
    Ben bernanke (deflation won't happen here) edition of the wealth effect reaction


     
    woopdurritis
    woopdurritis
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    Posted: Nov. 5, 2010 - 7:35 PM ET #32

    Quote Originally Posted by be easy:



    It depends your reason for purchasing and your desired outcome, that should choose your vehicle for you. I began buying coins in the low teens from a local dealer, they usually price them at a premium of 1.50$ over spot, not sure if this is fixed or if it's by % because it would be more expensive now if it's %. when Ag was 12-13$ eagles went for 14-15$ish at the local dealer. Check your local yellow pages, there will be an authorized dealer for american silver eagles if that's the route you choose. I bought most all of my silver in eagles, but my gameplan for silver is/was not as much investment but a safety measure in case the whole system breaks down, which is why i wanted eagles because for some reason i guess they'd be easier to identify and more likely to be trusted as authentic

    If you're just looking to get in as a gamble, do as Koaj suggested back when the markets first crashed and buy SLV . Not my cup of tea, but to each their own, it should yield the same desired effect, and the transaction cost is less, but you're not holding the silver in your hand, which is kinda fun


    My dad had a lot of coins put away that he collected when he was a kid.  Just looked through them and a lot of the silver dollars are selling for $40 and all of the nickels, dimes, and quarters that are silver are selling extremely high as well... Pretty amazing.

    It is definitely cool to have gold/silver bars but unless you are buying big quantities... I don't know if it is worth it at this point   You take a hit when you buy then generally take another hit when you sell... Unless silver is going to continue to skyrocket...
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by be easy:



    It depends your reason for purchasing and your desired outcome, that should choose your vehicle for you. I began buying coins in the low teens from a local dealer, they usually price them at a premium of 1.50$ over spot, not sure if this is fixed or if it's by % because it would be more expensive now if it's %. when Ag was 12-13$ eagles went for 14-15$ish at the local dealer. Check your local yellow pages, there will be an authorized dealer for american silver eagles if that's the route you choose. I bought most all of my silver in eagles, but my gameplan for silver is/was not as much investment but a safety measure in case the whole system breaks down, which is why i wanted eagles because for some reason i guess they'd be easier to identify and more likely to be trusted as authentic

    If you're just looking to get in as a gamble, do as Koaj suggested back when the markets first crashed and buy SLV . Not my cup of tea, but to each their own, it should yield the same desired effect, and the transaction cost is less, but you're not holding the silver in your hand, which is kinda fun


    My dad had a lot of coins put away that he collected when he was a kid.  Just looked through them and a lot of the silver dollars are selling for $40 and all of the nickels, dimes, and quarters that are silver are selling extremely high as well... Pretty amazing.

    It is definitely cool to have gold/silver bars but unless you are buying big quantities... I don't know if it is worth it at this point   You take a hit when you buy then generally take another hit when you sell... Unless silver is going to continue to skyrocket...
     
    mikego
    mikego
    Prospect
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Jan, 2009
    Posts: 87
    Posted: Nov. 6, 2010 - 10:58 PM ET #33

    the weak dollar is pushing silver and gold up....this administation has NO intentions of trying to strengthen it anytime soon so its onward and upwards for the metals...
    Reply
    the weak dollar is pushing silver and gold up....this administation has NO intentions of trying to strengthen it anytime soon so its onward and upwards for the metals...
     
    SportsFan9698
    SportsFan9698
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    Posted: Nov. 7, 2010 - 11:08 AM ET #34

    You all seem to talk about Silver as a tool for trading.  I'm buying for long term.  I don't give a rats ass about what the fed does, because I know in the long run they will destroy the USD.

    I will tap my silver investment when I no longer have earning power, or if we ever see a hyperinflation (SHTF) scenario.  One is certain, and the other is something I don't want to be unprepared for.

    Selling my silver short of either of those situations is simply not something that interests me.
    Reply
    You all seem to talk about Silver as a tool for trading.  I'm buying for long term.  I don't give a rats ass about what the fed does, because I know in the long run they will destroy the USD.

    I will tap my silver investment when I no longer have earning power, or if we ever see a hyperinflation (SHTF) scenario.  One is certain, and the other is something I don't want to be unprepared for.

    Selling my silver short of either of those situations is simply not something that interests me.
     
    ALSNOW
    ALSNOW
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    Posted: Nov. 7, 2010 - 5:02 PM ET #35

    Quote Originally Posted by SportsFan9698:

    You all seem to talk about Silver as a tool for trading.  I'm buying for long term.  I don't give a rats ass about what the fed does, because I know in the long run they will destroy the USD.

    I will tap my silver investment when I no longer have earning power, or if we ever see a hyperinflation (SHTF) scenario.  One is certain, and the other is something I don't want to be unprepared for.

    Selling my silver short of either of those situations is simply not something that interests me.

    You are very wise.  I haven't read all you posts do u own physical?
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by SportsFan9698:

    You all seem to talk about Silver as a tool for trading.  I'm buying for long term.  I don't give a rats ass about what the fed does, because I know in the long run they will destroy the USD.

    I will tap my silver investment when I no longer have earning power, or if we ever see a hyperinflation (SHTF) scenario.  One is certain, and the other is something I don't want to be unprepared for.

    Selling my silver short of either of those situations is simply not something that interests me.

    You are very wise.  I haven't read all you posts do u own physical?
     
    SportsFan9698
    SportsFan9698
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    Posted: Nov. 7, 2010 - 8:39 PM ET #36

    Quote Originally Posted by ALSNOW:


    You are very wise.  I haven't read all you posts do u own physical?


    I'm not sure how wise I am, but I'm very sure that buying silver is the very best way to invest for the future.  Of all of the pitfalls I have learned about (and more importantly found on my own), throughout the years, buying silver has none of them.

    Those that are more apt to try to trade their way to higher profits will try to point at the "eb and tide effect" that such a commodity brings.  I could not care less.  Silver will have years of great returns, and many years of no return at all... maybe even some consolidation.  In the long run Silver has out-earned every single investment, and will do so in the future.  If any of you are tempted to point out some fractured returns in equities, you have not done your homework (research Dow returns AFTER inflation and taxes).

    I'm buying Silver and not looking back
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by ALSNOW:


    You are very wise.  I haven't read all you posts do u own physical?


    I'm not sure how wise I am, but I'm very sure that buying silver is the very best way to invest for the future.  Of all of the pitfalls I have learned about (and more importantly found on my own), throughout the years, buying silver has none of them.

    Those that are more apt to try to trade their way to higher profits will try to point at the "eb and tide effect" that such a commodity brings.  I could not care less.  Silver will have years of great returns, and many years of no return at all... maybe even some consolidation.  In the long run Silver has out-earned every single investment, and will do so in the future.  If any of you are tempted to point out some fractured returns in equities, you have not done your homework (research Dow returns AFTER inflation and taxes).

    I'm buying Silver and not looking back
     
    SportsFan9698
    SportsFan9698
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    Posted: Nov. 7, 2010 - 11:01 PM ET #37

    Quote Originally Posted by ALSNOW:


    You are very wise.  I haven't read all you posts do u own physical?


    And YES I only own physical silver you can hold in your hand.  To own ETFs completely ignores many many MANY of the real reasons you are investing in silver in the first place.
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by ALSNOW:


    You are very wise.  I haven't read all you posts do u own physical?


    And YES I only own physical silver you can hold in your hand.  To own ETFs completely ignores many many MANY of the real reasons you are investing in silver in the first place.
     
    SportsFan9698
    SportsFan9698
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    Posted: Nov. 8, 2010 - 3:59 PM ET #38

    $28 now

    Reply

    $28 now

     
    ALSNOW
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    Posted: Nov. 8, 2010 - 8:31 PM ET #39

    Quote Originally Posted by SportsFan9698:



    I'm not sure how wise I am, but I'm very sure that buying silver is the very best way to invest for the future.  Of all of the pitfalls I have learned about (and more importantly found on my own), throughout the years, buying silver has none of them.

    Those that are more apt to try to trade their way to higher profits will try to point at the "eb and tide effect" that such a commodity brings.  I could not care less.  Silver will have years of great returns, and many years of no return at all... maybe even some consolidation.  In the long run Silver has out-earned every single investment, and will do so in the future.  If any of you are tempted to point out some fractured returns in equities, you have not done your homework (research Dow returns AFTER inflation and taxes).

    I'm buying Silver and not looking back

    I'm not going to point out anything I've been all PM'S since 2004 40% Bullion 30% Large Producers 30% Spec Miners and warrants.
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by SportsFan9698:



    I'm not sure how wise I am, but I'm very sure that buying silver is the very best way to invest for the future.  Of all of the pitfalls I have learned about (and more importantly found on my own), throughout the years, buying silver has none of them.

    Those that are more apt to try to trade their way to higher profits will try to point at the "eb and tide effect" that such a commodity brings.  I could not care less.  Silver will have years of great returns, and many years of no return at all... maybe even some consolidation.  In the long run Silver has out-earned every single investment, and will do so in the future.  If any of you are tempted to point out some fractured returns in equities, you have not done your homework (research Dow returns AFTER inflation and taxes).

    I'm buying Silver and not looking back

    I'm not going to point out anything I've been all PM'S since 2004 40% Bullion 30% Large Producers 30% Spec Miners and warrants.
     
    woopdurritis
    woopdurritis
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    Posted: Nov. 9, 2010 - 10:58 AM ET #40

    Up over $1 today
    Reply
    Up over $1 today
     
    SportsFan9698
    SportsFan9698
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    Posts: 5575
    Posted: Nov. 9, 2010 - 12:34 PM ET #41

    $29 now...

     

     

     

    Reply

    $29 now...

     

     

     

     
    Vermeer
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    Posted: Nov. 9, 2010 - 12:52 PM ET #42

    send a thank you note to "Bubbles" Bernanke...this is what he does for a living:
    Reply
    send a thank you note to "Bubbles" Bernanke...this is what he does for a living:
     
    Superfigg
    Superfigg
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    Posted: Nov. 9, 2010 - 3:48 PM ET #43

    CME raised margin requirements
    Reply
    CME raised margin requirements
     
    SportsFan9698
    SportsFan9698
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    Posted: Nov. 9, 2010 - 4:29 PM ET #44

    Quote Originally Posted by Superfigg:

    CME raised margin requirements

    And silver took a nose dive?  down about $2.50 in the PM today...

     

    Funny story, although I doubt anybody will believe me.  I had two very large silver coins in my collection - both being one troy pound each.  I bought them @ $17/oz earlier this year.  I had decided that I want nothing but 1 oz silver rounds, so I wanted to unload them.  I stopped in a local coin dealer today to cash out, so I could buy more siver rounds.  The guy looked up the current spot price and saw it was north of $29, and paid me $28 - fair deal.

    I just check the price now, and it took a nosedive.  I'm sure that old man is cussing at me now.

    Now I get to reinvest tonight at a lower price

    Reply

    Quote Originally Posted by Superfigg:

    CME raised margin requirements

    And silver took a nose dive?  down about $2.50 in the PM today...

     

    Funny story, although I doubt anybody will believe me.  I had two very large silver coins in my collection - both being one troy pound each.  I bought them @ $17/oz earlier this year.  I had decided that I want nothing but 1 oz silver rounds, so I wanted to unload them.  I stopped in a local coin dealer today to cash out, so I could buy more siver rounds.  The guy looked up the current spot price and saw it was north of $29, and paid me $28 - fair deal.

    I just check the price now, and it took a nosedive.  I'm sure that old man is cussing at me now.

    Now I get to reinvest tonight at a lower price

     
    1IRON
    1IRON
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    Posted: Nov. 9, 2010 - 10:13 PM ET #45

    Thought this was an interesting take on silver:

    https://news.silverseek.com/SilverSeek/1289286000.php




    Reply
    Thought this was an interesting take on silver:

    https://news.silverseek.com/SilverSeek/1289286000.php




     
    wallstreetcappers
    wallstreetcappers
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    Posted: Nov. 9, 2010 - 10:33 PM ET #46

    Careful careful...the .com bust started when brokers raised margin requirements and the liquidity started to shrink.

    Make no doubts about this action, it is completely ponzi.

    Commodities are trading off issues which are outside supply and demand and that will not last longer term.


    Reply
    Careful careful...the .com bust started when brokers raised margin requirements and the liquidity started to shrink.

    Make no doubts about this action, it is completely ponzi.

    Commodities are trading off issues which are outside supply and demand and that will not last longer term.


     
    ALSNOW
    ALSNOW
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    Posted: Nov. 9, 2010 - 11:30 PM ET #47

    Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:

    Careful careful...the .com bust started when brokers raised margin requirements and the liquidity started to shrink.


    Make no doubts about this action, it is completely ponzi.

    Commodities are trading off issues which are outside supply and demand and that will not last longer term.



    You compare the dot.com bubble to raising PM prices where are the parallels?  Where are the IPO'S going up 1000% every day, the years of going straight up, thousands of stocks up 10-1000 fold, stocks with no earnings going from 1 to 400? You've had one day of being right congrats but if you think metals are a bubble when stocks aren't even at 2006 levels and spot prices are up 100% since then you don't know stock market bubbles.  Again Gold and Silver are the only currencies with no debt attached to them.Again the Fed is a printing press devaluing the dollar daily. I really want you to go short if you feel so strongly and put your money where your uninformed mouth is.
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:

    Careful careful...the .com bust started when brokers raised margin requirements and the liquidity started to shrink.


    Make no doubts about this action, it is completely ponzi.

    Commodities are trading off issues which are outside supply and demand and that will not last longer term.



    You compare the dot.com bubble to raising PM prices where are the parallels?  Where are the IPO'S going up 1000% every day, the years of going straight up, thousands of stocks up 10-1000 fold, stocks with no earnings going from 1 to 400? You've had one day of being right congrats but if you think metals are a bubble when stocks aren't even at 2006 levels and spot prices are up 100% since then you don't know stock market bubbles.  Again Gold and Silver are the only currencies with no debt attached to them.Again the Fed is a printing press devaluing the dollar daily. I really want you to go short if you feel so strongly and put your money where your uninformed mouth is.
     
    cd329
    cd329
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    Posted: Nov. 9, 2010 - 11:35 PM ET #48

    If the whole country collapses like some of you think is going to happen, then why the hell do you want to own gold or silver so bad?  The truth is food, guns, water, fuel and thinsg like that will be worth way more then any gold bar.  If i got a juicy steak and you got a gold bar, big deal, because am not trading the steak for the gold.

    Honestly i think all the gold and silver buyers are heading for a huge bubble.  I believe all the talking heads have scared people into buying this stuff, so then they can make gobs shorting the shit out of this stuff.

    Like Wallstreet says, be careful boys.

    Lastly in my opinion silver is the better buy if you are going to buy one of these, because silver has so many more uses then gold has.

    The guys with the guns will endup with all the gold anyways

    Reply

    If the whole country collapses like some of you think is going to happen, then why the hell do you want to own gold or silver so bad?  The truth is food, guns, water, fuel and thinsg like that will be worth way more then any gold bar.  If i got a juicy steak and you got a gold bar, big deal, because am not trading the steak for the gold.

    Honestly i think all the gold and silver buyers are heading for a huge bubble.  I believe all the talking heads have scared people into buying this stuff, so then they can make gobs shorting the shit out of this stuff.

    Like Wallstreet says, be careful boys.

    Lastly in my opinion silver is the better buy if you are going to buy one of these, because silver has so many more uses then gold has.

    The guys with the guns will endup with all the gold anyways

     
    wallstreetcappers
    wallstreetcappers
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    Posted: Nov. 9, 2010 - 11:47 PM ET #49

    Quote Originally Posted by ALSNOW:


    You compare the dot.com bubble to raising PM prices where are the parallels?  Where are the IPO'S going up 1000% every day, the years of going straight up, thousands of stocks up 10-1000 fold, stocks with no earnings going from 1 to 400? You've had one day of being right congrats but if you think metals are a bubble when stocks aren't even at 2006 levels and spot prices are up 100% since then you don't know stock market bubbles.  Again Gold and Silver are the only currencies with no debt attached to them.Again the Fed is a printing press devaluing the dollar daily. I really want you to go short if you feel so strongly and put your money where your uninformed mouth is.


    Temper temper...try not taking my posts personally, you seem like a total hot head, not good for a person trading.

    Are you on margin yourself?


    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by ALSNOW:


    You compare the dot.com bubble to raising PM prices where are the parallels?  Where are the IPO'S going up 1000% every day, the years of going straight up, thousands of stocks up 10-1000 fold, stocks with no earnings going from 1 to 400? You've had one day of being right congrats but if you think metals are a bubble when stocks aren't even at 2006 levels and spot prices are up 100% since then you don't know stock market bubbles.  Again Gold and Silver are the only currencies with no debt attached to them.Again the Fed is a printing press devaluing the dollar daily. I really want you to go short if you feel so strongly and put your money where your uninformed mouth is.


    Temper temper...try not taking my posts personally, you seem like a total hot head, not good for a person trading.

    Are you on margin yourself?


     
     
    woopdurritis
    woopdurritis
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    Posted: Nov. 10, 2010 - 10:37 AM ET #50

    WSC in politics

    WSC as a financial adviser

    If you have extra money that you can afford to lose... gold and silver   If you are investing your life savings in gold and silver... the bubble could burst
    Reply
    WSC in politics

    WSC as a financial adviser

    If you have extra money that you can afford to lose... gold and silver   If you are investing your life savings in gold and silver... the bubble could burst
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