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If Christ died on the cross for all of humanity

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Posted: #76

Quote Originally Posted by misfits:

just because you want something to be real doesnt mean it is. you are so dense you make corky from life goes on look like a rocket scientist. i think you were just born in the wrong time. you need to go back 500 years or so to fit in, where the church ruled with an iron fist and terrorized, tortured and killed anyone who dared use their brain. you dont belong in a world where science, common sense and free thinking are let loose. you prefer to stay blindfolded to the truth of things, staying closed minded and brainwashed, clinging to antiquated fairy tales that have been proven false over and over again. the worst thing is that deep down you know just how wrong you are, but are too entrenched in your position to let it go, afraid of how you will look to others. so you march on, knowing how ridiculous you sound, cutting and pasting mindless drivel, not ever posting a coherent thought or reply to any question posed. but then you have no factual source to form any argument or rebuttal from so you lost before you even had a chance to begin.......

Just because YOU believe something, it does NOT mean it is true.

You havent even given any reasons for your belief system, you sound like someone who just consumed your daily dose  of alcohol and given your subjective thoughts which arent even reasons......in fact, they just made me laugh

 
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Posted: #77

Quote Originally Posted by Crashdavis565:


Thanks for this, this is a great illustration of the points of the bible to me. I totally get your point and it makes good sense to me. Now here is mine, since Jesus was the gift of God to the people and the bridge to heaven that God intended, did he really sacrifice anything? Did Jesus really sacrifice anything by dying on the cross? Yes, I will easily and obviously concede the point it was painful but my point is this, if you were in that position and told that you must be crucified for all of mankind to have any shot at heaven, do you as a rational person have a say?
Lets say for a second that you decide, nah, do not feel like being crucified today, I am going to take a pass and just miracle myself out of here and over to Hawaii. Hypothetical now, could you still go to heaven? I think your Dad would be awfully pissed, don't you.
So the only point I am making is that maybe, and I said maybe, dying on the cross to save all of humanity and allow them into heaven should not be viewed as all that great of a sacrifice? That is all I am saying.

Would you get whipped, lashed, bashed, punched, kicked, dragged by your hair, spat on, then have 50 centimetre nails driven through your hands, feet to save murderers, rapists etc etc from going to hell?

Just a yes or a no?

Your answer will tell me alot about you think is a sacrifice or not

 
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Posted: #78

Quote Originally Posted by Crashdavis565:


Thanks for this, this is a great illustration of the points of the bible to me. I totally get your point and it makes good sense to me. Now here is mine, since Jesus was the gift of God to the people and the bridge to heaven that God intended, did he really sacrifice anything? Did Jesus really sacrifice anything by dying on the cross? Yes, I will easily and obviously concede the point it was painful but my point is this, if you were in that position and told that you must be crucified for all of mankind to have any shot at heaven, do you as a rational person have a say?
Lets say for a second that you decide, nah, do not feel like being crucified today, I am going to take a pass and just miracle myself out of here and over to Hawaii. Hypothetical now, could you still go to heaven? I think your Dad would be awfully pissed, don't you.
So the only point I am making is that maybe, and I said maybe, dying on the cross to save all of humanity and allow them into heaven should not be viewed as all that great of a sacrifice? That is all I am saying.

Hi Crash! How are you doing? I don't mind answering questions from people like you who are curious about the Christian religion. Right now you are a irresolutor or a person that's undecided on whether to believe or not believe. It's people like you I really want to talk to, I mean those heathens are very hard to talk to, they have made their minds up and so I don't understand why they come on threads like these and try to debate a subject that is really not debatable, you either believe through understanding and acceptance or don't or like in your case you're undecided and want to probe the subject with sincere questions and so now we can have some kind of civilized discussion on it. I hope my answers are adequate enough for your complete understanding. I know it can be hard at times to really understand what a person is trying to convey over to others and so there still might be some confusion on both sides of the discussion.

1. Since Jesus was the gift of God to the people and the bridge to heaven that God intended, did he really sacrifice anything? Did Jesus really sacrifice anything by dying on the cross?

Jesus Christ sacrificed His human life, His life in the flesh for all humanity because of His great love for all of us. Let me add further by saying it was the greatest of sacrifices anyone could have done for the entire world and for all the generations to come. This was God's brilliant plan to bridge the gap between Himself, being as Holy and sinless as He is and with people who are all sinful. So Jesus Christ who was without sin took the burden of paying for all the sins from His time till today that human kind have committed by dying an agonizing death by crucifixion on the cross.

2. Lets say for a second that you decide, nah, do not feel like being crucified today, I am going to take a pass and just miracle myself out of here and over to Hawaii. Hypothetical now, could you still go to heaven? I think your Dad would be awfully pissed, don't you.

You must understand that Jesus Christ was actually God in the flesh or God the Son and so He knew the plan and had to follow the plan that He devised in order for that bridge to fill in the gap between Himself and all humanity so that all who are saved by believing in Jesus Christ and who obey and follow the Ten Commandments would be able to spend the rest of eternity with Him in the Kingdom of Heaven. This is the great love God has shown humanity by going through with this greatest of sacrifices that was ever done in the entire history of mankind. Without this sacrifice as I have said in an earlier post no one would have been able to go to the Kingdom of Heaven. The payment of mankind's sins had been paid by the crucifixion of Jesus Christ on the cross. So I hope this makes you understand that this sacrifice was indeed a very very very big deal! If God didn't go through with this plan it would have meant that He doesn't love us and that He wanted all of us to be doomed forever, however, He has given us a chance to redeem ourselves by the belief in Jesus Christ as our Lord Savior!...amen to that bruthaa!

Lastly I just want to end by saying that if the life of Jesus Christ our Savior never had happened and so there was no documentation then we would still be waiting for a Messiah to arrive and all we would have would be the Old Testament. Today's date wouldn't be 2011 because the calendar is based on from the time of Jesus' death. People really would doubt more the existence of God and there would probably be more non-believers today and a really really really evil wicked world more so than how it really is today.

 
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Posted: #79

Yes I would do it, I would die on the cross and take all the whipping nails and other atrocities the Romans could throw at me to allow all of the people on earth into heaven. Without a doubt. No questions.

Thanks for the candid responses, these are really helpful as I look at the different religions of the world.

I appreciate the time and insight some of you have provided.  I watched that Mel Gibson movie and even though it was horrible and bloody and painful, if that was the price to save humanity I would put it forth  that any sane and rational human would make the same decision. Maybe though, many would not have the courage to go through with it. I am unsure I would. That said, humanity is a lot of people.

 

 
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Posted: #80

How did the writer of Genesis some 2000 years ago know that the universe had a beginning? Something that scientists with all the technology they have are only now able to confirm.

 

I am unsure this question has an answer. I am further unsure it proves anything. Each person will have to examine thie facts and make up their own minds. 

 
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Posted: #81

SJD

 
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Posted: #82
Quote Originally Posted by Crashdavis565:

Yes I would do it, I would die on the cross and take all the whipping nails and other atrocities the Romans could throw at me to allow all of the people on earth into heaven. Without a doubt. No questions.

Thanks for the candid responses, these are really helpful as I look at the different religions of the world.

I appreciate the time and insight some of you have provided.  I watched that Mel Gibson movie and even though it was horrible and bloody and painful, if that was the price to save humanity I would put it forth  that any sane and rational human would make the same decision. Maybe though, many would not have the courage to go through with it. I am unsure I would. That said, humanity is a lot of people.

 

You are a good person! You're absolutely right many people would not have the courage to go through the ultimate sacrifice. God Bless you crash!

 
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Posted: #83
Quote Originally Posted by Crashdavis565:

How did the writer of Genesis some 2000 years ago know that the universe had a beginning? Something that scientists with all the technology they have are only now able to confirm.

 

I am unsure this question has an answer. I am further unsure it proves anything. Each person will have to examine thie facts and make up their own minds. 

The writer of Genesis who was Moses wrote the book approx. 3,461 years ago. He wrote down what God inspired him to write in the book of Genesis. So that's how Moses knew the universe had a beginning...today scientists call it the Big Bang.

 
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Posted: #84
This is absurd
 
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Posted: #85

I'm just pissed God screwed so many things up while creating man kind. I mean cancer, AIDS, rapists, child molestors who ruin childrens lives forever, murderers, terrorists who terrorize because of their religion. Giving man enough brain power to come up with cocaine and heroine, liquor and booze to rip families apart and leave children father or motherless??? Man can create bombs that kill millions and different religions where killing others is cool if they're not like you???

Why would you want to worship someone like that. Aren't you pissed he screwed up so bad? And don't say "well you wouldn't be here if he didn't create you"...but I "wouldn't" be here so I wouldn't care. I don't know, the whole thing is sketchy at best to me...very confusing.

And it pisses me off he didn't leave better proof. For cryin out loud God, if you're real it would be nice to know. I have a hard time wanting to follow you when I really think it could be a waste of valuable time because the world you put me in has been destroyed by the Man you created and I now need to work two jobs because our economy is shit and I got layed off since some terrorists you created flew a couple of jet liners into a couple large buildings that were built by the Man you created....Good Lord 

 
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Posted: #86
Quote Originally Posted by 165yds:

 

Few guys go up a mountain and write a book and you guys believe every word of it.  If 5 guys went up a mountain today with no proof of anything and wrote a book of invisable men, would you believe it?



I can pull you and your malevolent kind out of hell if you want.
 
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Posted: #87
Quote Originally Posted by Crashdavis565:


This is kind of my point. I am not much of a guy. I drink a little too much and gamble too much but as I was thinking about the dying on the cross thing it came to me that I would take one for the team too. I mean, do not get me wrong,  I really appreciate what he did and all but would not anyone do that?
We have kids go "over the hill" in war into a hail of bullets and take one for the team. The Japanese have kamikazes.  These people are sacrificing themselves for others. Jesus made a good call and all by dying on the cross to take care of all the sins of man but I think most people when faced with this decision would have done the same?
Not all that big of a deal?


You couldn't take what he went through.  His battle was as much physical as it was mental and spiritual.  You would have cried uncle after the first few lashes if you could even carry the cross that far.   Go to your church and ask your pastor to fill you with the holy spirit you might find something fascinating. 

By the way there is no way I could have taken the pain either.  Anyone who thinks so is blinded by arrogance.
 
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Posted: #88

Well put Sir Drake.

Toliver,  man has free will.  Yes there is disease in this world, we live in a fallen world.  How many of these diseases can be traced to choices made by man.  Wishing all well.

 
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Posted: #89
Quote Originally Posted by OnlyGod:



You couldn't take what he went through.  His battle was as much physical as it was mental and spiritual.  You would have cried uncle after the first few lashes if you could even carry the cross that far.   Go to your church and ask your pastor to fill you with the holy spirit you might find something fascinating. 

By the way there is no way I could have taken the pain either.  Anyone who thinks so is blinded by arrogance.

many people were crucified and many people have been through far greater pain...keep drinking that juice
 
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Posted: #90
Quote Originally Posted by doliver517:

I'm just pissed God screwed so many things up while creating man kind. I mean cancer, AIDS, rapists, child molestors who ruin childrens lives forever, murderers, terrorists who terrorize because of their religion. Giving man enough brain power to come up with cocaine and heroine, liquor and booze to rip families apart and leave children father or motherless??? Man can create bombs that kill millions and different religions where killing others is cool if they're not like you???

Why would you want to worship someone like that. Aren't you pissed he screwed up so bad? And don't say "well you wouldn't be here if he didn't create you"...but I "wouldn't" be here so I wouldn't care. I don't know, the whole thing is sketchy at best to me...very confusing.

And it pisses me off he didn't leave better proof. For cryin out loud God, if you're real it would be nice to know. I have a hard time wanting to follow you when I really think it could be a waste of valuable time because the world you put me in has been destroyed by the Man you created and I now need to work two jobs because our economy is shit and I got layed off since some terrorists you created flew a couple of jet liners into a couple large buildings that were built by the Man you created....Good Lord 

Ok, i can see where you are coming from.

However, open your eyes to this....

The earth is ONLY a temporary place. God created the earth merely as a stage where man can choose him or reject him.

Like most non believers here, many think that if there was a God, then he would create a world where all the moral choices that are made are good ones and the world is physically perfect.

However, the world was NOT designed to be physically perfect or a place where all moral choices are good, but merely a stage where man can choose to accept God and live with him for eternity or reject him and live apart from him forever. The only way to do this is to create a world in which man can make good AND bad moral choices. Only is it in this world that we live in is this possible. The atrocities you described above are the result of BAD MORAL choices. The consequence of free will.

These comments are further backed up in the bible when it is written that after God created the world he described it as "good". he didnt describe it as perfect which most atheists think would be the case if their was a God.

I hope this opens your eyes. What is the point of creating a "perfect world" if everyone is eventually going to die?

Heavan is the perfect creation.

It is your choice.

 
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Posted: #91
Quote Originally Posted by SYSTEM:


many people were crucified and many people have been through far greater pain...keep drinking that juice

Yes, but how many of these people were 100% sin free?

 
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Posted: #92
THIS IS GOD  thou is going  to HELL   but before you go..... got any  idea  if ohio state  will win 8 games?
 
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Posted: #93
to the people who dont believe ni HIM,  just dont mock HIM..

so what if others believe in HIM like me, sjd and rostos, we believe in HIM because we have faith

others believe in homosexuality, so what?

just dont question us about proof etc. if you ever go to church,

RELIGION IS BASED ON FAITH
 
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Posted: #94
I do have to disagree, there are many examples of people who were crucified. The Romans used these form of punishment freely. There were thieves and captured armies that were crucified. I believe even when Christ was crucified the legend goes he was on the cross with two other people, one on each side. I am unsure if this is truly documented.
Some would argue that Christ was an ordinary man that had gained an extraordinary following. To stop this threat to the Roman state they told Christ to cease his preaching. He was gaining far too many followers. Christ went forward.
The Romans punished him in the same manner they punished some 10,000 or 20,000 other people who were violating their laws at the time by crucifixion.  The followers of Christ, then took the crucifixion as the symbol to their fallen hero and made it there own. This story may have some plausibility.
If someone told me that all of humanity was only going to heaven if I went to the cross as many people had before me, I think I would go.
If someone told a soldier to defuse a bomb or go over a hill into a hail storm of bullets, some millions of ordinary men have followed that command to their own painful deaths.
To die on a cross was a sacrifice no doubt about it but with all that was hanging in the balance, it would be hard to make it anything greater than it was.  A plain old crucifixion like the 10,000 that occurred before it and the two that happened on the same day.
 
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Posted: #95
Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

Yes, but how many of these people were 100% sin free?


Please reference the sources (other than the bible) that prove he was "100% sin free". And lets say he was...so what Because you're sin free it hurts more 
 
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Posted: #96
Thought I was on covers, where did this thread come from?
 
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Posted: #97

Quote Originally Posted by sadboy:

to the people who dont believe ni HIM,  just dont mock HIM..

so what if others believe in HIM like me, sjd and rostos, we believe in HIM because we have faith

others believe in homosexuality, so what?

just dont question us about proof etc. if you ever go to church,

RELIGION IS BASED ON FAITH

Correct, but atheism is also based on "FAITH"

 
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Posted: #98

Quote Originally Posted by Crashdavis565:

I do have to disagree, there are many examples of people who were crucified. The Romans used these form of punishment freely. There were thieves and captured armies that were crucified. I believe even when Christ was crucified the legend goes he was on the cross with two other people, one on each side. I am unsure if this is truly documented.
Some would argue that Christ was an ordinary man that had gained an extraordinary following. To stop this threat to the Roman state they told Christ to cease his preaching. He was gaining far too many followers. Christ went forward.
The Romans punished him in the same manner they punished some 10,000 or 20,000 other people who were violating their laws at the time by crucifixion.  The followers of Christ, then took the crucifixion as the symbol to their fallen hero and made it there own. This story may have some plausibility.
If someone told me that all of humanity was only going to heaven if I went to the cross as many people had before me, I think I would go.
If someone told a soldier to defuse a bomb or go over a hill into a hail storm of bullets, some millions of ordinary men have followed that command to their own painful deaths.
To die on a cross was a sacrifice no doubt about it but with all that was hanging in the balance, it would be hard to make it anything greater than it was.  A plain old crucifixion like the 10,000 that occurred before it and the two that happened on the same day.

Yes, however you are missing the central point, he was the ONLY man 100% sin free.

His life was the ransom to save EVERYONE.

Why do you keep comparing Jesus to everyone including murderers, thieves etc.......

They put him to death cause he says he was the son of God. If he really wasnt the son of God as he was claiming to be, when he was to be put to death, if he was lying the whole time why didnt he say so to save himself?

Was he a lunatic suicider? No from what we see in the scriptures.

Therefore it is very evident that what he was saying was the truth. Many people acknowledge he was a brilliant teacher, but you cant pick and chose what you want from scripture.

Actions speak louder than words...

 
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Posted: #99
Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

Yes, however you are missing the central point, he was the ONLY man 100% sin free.

His life was the ransom to save EVERYONE.

Why do you keep comparing Jesus to everyone including murderers, thieves etc.......

They put him to death cause he says he was the son of God. If he really wasnt the son of God as he was claiming to be, when he was to be put to death, if he was lying the whole time why didnt he say so to save himself?

Was he a lunatic suicider? No from what we see in the scriptures.

Exactly, the only place we see himGreat story Great myth

Therefore it is very evident that what he was saying was the truth. Many people acknowledge he was a brilliant teacher, but you cant pick and chose what you want from scripture.

Actions speak louder than words...



 
 
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Posted: #100
Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

Correct, but atheism is also based on "FAITH"


Wrong

Faith is trust, hope and belief in the goodness, trustworthiness or reliability of a person, concept or entity.

Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.
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