All Forums | General Discussion

If Christ died on the cross for all of humanity

...

Participants:

Posts: 5358

Mikniks

Veteran

Joined: Nov, 2010

Posts: 1384

Posted: Jan. 4, 2012 - 4:49 AM ET #4176

Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

ok, then

If the meaning of life is defined by survivng,

Then which life has more meaning?

A junkie that shoots heroin, all day, drinks all day, is a nuisnace to others, rips others off etc etc and lives till 75 Or

A man that helps charities, poor people, homeless but lives till only 30...

By your definition, the junkie had a more meaningful life, after all, he survived longer.

We both know thats not true.

If there is no god, then yes, because life is meaningless. Is one a better person than the other? Of course, but his life didn't have more meaning. Just be happy and don't die. Those should be your two goals.

Rostos

Hall of Fame

Joined: Feb, 2009

Posts: 27785

Posted: Jan. 4, 2012 - 4:52 AM ET #4177

Quote Originally Posted by Mikniks:

But you just said life is meaningless...Do you know the definition of that?

One minute you said life is about survivng (which is a meaning), then the next minute u say there isnt.......Which one is it?

Mikniks

Veteran

Joined: Nov, 2010

Posts: 1384

Posted: Jan. 4, 2012 - 5:03 AM ET #4178

Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

But you just said life is meaningless...Do you know the definition of that?

One minute you said life is about survivng (which is a meaning), then the next minute u say there isnt.......Which one is it?

George Carlin was a comedian (I hope you know who he is). It was a joke. Life has no meaning. Just be happy for as long as possible.

Rostos

Hall of Fame

Joined: Feb, 2009

Posts: 27785

Posted: Jan. 4, 2012 - 5:09 AM ET #4179

Yes i know who he is, I dont buy it mate, if it is all about being happy and not dying, then there is no point to altruism, .........You know thats not true

Mikniks

Veteran

Joined: Nov, 2010

Posts: 1384

Posted: Jan. 4, 2012 - 5:16 AM ET #4180

We are not inanimate objects. Our existence is no more meaningful than that of a rock's, but we aren't going to just kill each other. Where is the point in that? We are conscious beings, so we can give our lives meaning, in a sense.

Rostos

Hall of Fame

Joined: Feb, 2009

Posts: 27785

Posted: Jan. 4, 2012 - 6:14 AM ET #4181

If we are just like rocks, then why cant i treat you like one?

You cant make a comparison to something then not say they should be treated the same.......

Its like calling someone the married bachelor

KittyKatz286

Veteran

Joined: Feb, 2009

Posts: 1988

Posted: Jan. 4, 2012 - 12:32 PM ET #4182

Now we're getting somewhere. I see it now. Rostos can't accept the notion that life is meaningless. And to be honest, who can blame him? I certainly don't. It's a very hard thing to accept. Quite possibly the most difficult thing a human can accept. If Rostos refuses to accept it, I really have no problem with that. However, nothing he says or does can convince me life has any intrinsic value. A human life is only as meaningful as he makes it and only meaningful relative to humanity as a whole.

165yds

Banned

Joined: May, 2007

Posts: 18777

Posted: Jan. 4, 2012 - 1:04 PM ET #4183

Quote Originally Posted by Mikniks:

If everything is meaningless than how can one be a better person than the other?

KittyKatz286

Veteran

Joined: Feb, 2009

Posts: 1988

Posted: Jan. 4, 2012 - 1:10 PM ET #4184

Quote Originally Posted by 165yds:

If everything is meaningless than how can one be a better person than the other?

False Dilemma Fallacy.

Either life is meaningless or no one person can be better than the other.

These are not the only possibilities.

Life can be meaningless and you and I are still better people than Osama bin Laden.

Additional clarification: a neuro surgeon has a more meaningful life than a high school janitor - I'm sure you would agree.

However, if you asked the high school janitor's son who's life was more important, he'd have a different answer wouldn't he?

The purpose is to establish that meaning is relative. Everyone's life is as meaningful as he or she makes it and that meaning is relative to humanity.

What we mean by "meaningless" is that life has no inherent value

165yds

Banned

Joined: May, 2007

Posts: 18777

Posted: Jan. 4, 2012 - 1:11 PM ET #4185

I agree with most of what the athiests say but I would drop this topic fast because you're going to be look very silly.

Rostos is right you can't have it both ways.

If you want to say everything is meaningless than you have no right to ever complain. Who cares would be your answer to everything. If this is the answer than why have compassion? Why should one ever go out of their way to help etc etc.

KittyKatz286

Veteran

Joined: Feb, 2009

Posts: 1988

Posted: Jan. 4, 2012 - 1:15 PM ET #4186

Quote Originally Posted by 165yds:

I agree with most of what the athiests say but I would drop this topic fast because you're going to be look very silly.

Rostos is right you can't have it both ways.

Why not have compassion? Why not care about others? Your life could have meaning to me relative to this life. Remember, we are purely discussing inherent meaning (also referred to as intrinsic value). As in, we have no "ultimate purpose" for being here.

I'm trying to explain this as best I can. If I am not doing a good enough job, try and ask specific questions and I will do my best to answer them.

But I implore you to understand the distinction between relative meaning and inherent meaning.

165yds

Banned

Joined: May, 2007

Posts: 18777

Posted: Jan. 4, 2012 - 1:16 PM ET #4187

Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:

False Dilemma Fallacy.

Either life is meaningless or no one person can be better than the other.

These are not the only possibilities.

Life can be meaningless and you and I are still better people than Osama bin Laden.

Additional clarification: a neuro surgeon has a more meaningful life than a high school janitor - I'm sure you would agree.

However, if you asked the high school janitor's son who's life was more important, he'd have a different answer wouldn't he?

The purpose is to establish that meaning is relative. Everyone's life is as meaningful as he or she makes it and that meaning is relative to humanity.

What we mean by "meaningless" is that life has no inherent value

No I wouldn't agree. I'm not sure how you could agree.

What if the janitor has kids and raises them to be someone who invents the cure for cancer and it was fathers values that led to the child to go to medical school.

What if the janitor does some type of charity work that touches thousands of people and makes their lives better. Who is anyone to make that judgement who's life is more meaningful. You can't make blind judgements. Just because someone is poor or isn't a doctor can have a much bigger impact on someone's life which causes a chain reaction of goodwill.

165yds

Banned

Joined: May, 2007

Posts: 18777

Posted: Jan. 4, 2012 - 1:20 PM ET #4188

We have to stay with the topic inherent meaning than and just discuss this. But I'll discuss later because I have to go.

KittyKatz286

Veteran

Joined: Feb, 2009

Posts: 1988

Posted: Jan. 4, 2012 - 1:23 PM ET #4189

Quote Originally Posted by 165yds:

No I wouldn't agree. I'm not sure how you could agree.

What if the janitor has kids and raises them to be someone who invents the cure for cancer and it was fathers values that led to the child to go to medical school.

Fair enough. I can accept that. But it only furthers my point. We don't know how meaningful the lives of each person are. The value is relative to who you ask and what a person does with his or her life. But like you said, let's focus on inherent meaning henceforth because my examples primarily dealt with relative meaning.

Mikniks

Veteran

Joined: Nov, 2010

Posts: 1384

Posted: Jan. 4, 2012 - 3:40 PM ET #4190

I guess a good way to put it would be to say, "Your life is what you make of it." You can give your life meaning, but there is no bigger purpose for your life. Your existence is meaningless.

EX4life

All-Star

Joined: Dec, 2009

Posts: 13235

Posted: Jan. 4, 2012 - 4:19 PM ET #4191

Quote Originally Posted by Mikniks:

I guess a good way to put it would be to say, "Your life is what you make of it." You can give your life meaning, but there is no bigger purpose for your life. Your existence is meaningless.

The problem talking about this is that for Christians, our existence is obviously meaningful... but for atheists, its meaningless... we all wont be able to convince the other unless we change our views on the overarching topic...

Hope yall have had a good day so far... freakin freeeeeeeezing this morning... had to cut and chip trees all day... cant feel my arms

haha

Mikniks

Veteran

Joined: Nov, 2010

Posts: 1384

Posted: Jan. 4, 2012 - 4:31 PM ET #4192

Quote Originally Posted by EX4life:

Hope yall have had a good day so far... freakin freeeeeeeezing this morning... had to cut and chip trees all day... cant feel my arms

haha

Well, of course. It all depends on if you believe in a higher power, or not.

It's freezing up here too. I refuse to go outside!

EX4life

All-Star

Joined: Dec, 2009

Posts: 13235

Posted: Jan. 4, 2012 - 4:36 PM ET #4193

Don't do it Mikniks... wait til Friday or Saturday, when its "nice" again... another guy got laid off at work today... been here for 20 years or so

but the boss man told us that who we have workin at the golf course now is the crew we will have, so it's nice to have that job security, ya know?

Rostos

Hall of Fame

Joined: Feb, 2009

Posts: 27785

Posted: Jan. 4, 2012 - 6:36 PM ET #4194

Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:

Now we're getting somewhere. I see it now. Rostos can't accept the notion that life is meaningless. And to be honest, who can blame him? I certainly don't. It's a very hard thing to accept. Quite possibly the most difficult thing a human can accept. If Rostos refuses to accept it, I really have no problem with that. However, nothing he says or does can convince me life has any intrinsic value. A human life is only as meaningful as he makes it and only meaningful relative to humanity as a whole.

You said that "everything is meaningless", but you think that statement you made is a meaningful statement but i thought everything is meaningless?

Furthermore, if everything is meaningless, everything you have said in this forum is meaningless, but you are writing as if it had a meaning.

You are having it both ways, you cant.

KittyKatz286

Veteran

Joined: Feb, 2009

Posts: 1988

Posted: Jan. 4, 2012 - 7:35 PM ET #4195

Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

You said that "everything is meaningless", but you think that statement you made is a meaningful statement but i thought everything is meaningless?

Furthermore, if everything is meaningless, everything you have said in this forum is meaningless, but you are writing as if it had a meaning.

You are having it both ways, you cant.

You are so far removed from reality, I can't even discuss this with you. You take things so far out of context. I will continue my discussion with 165 but I will ignore you.

SirJohnDrake

All-Star

Joined: Jan, 2006

Posts: 14765

Posted: Jan. 4, 2012 - 9:23 PM ET #4196

Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:

You are so far removed from reality, I can't even discuss this with you. You take things so far out of context. I will continue my discussion with 165 but I will ignore you.

I understand there is no common set of atheists beliefs. Just as there are misconceptions of the Christian religion there are also misconceptions of atheism.

Some of your fellow atheists look at their lives as meaningful and with purpose. They view each life as being very precious.

I agree with Rostos, in that you can't have it both ways kk. You either believe life is meaningless or life is meaningful and with purpose.

You can still be an atheist with the belief that life is meaningful and with purpose but you just can't say life is meaningless and then turn around and say but in some areas it is meaningful. So what is it going to be kk? Meaningful or meaningless?

KittyKatz286

Veteran

Joined: Feb, 2009

Posts: 1988

Posted: Jan. 4, 2012 - 9:26 PM ET #4197

Quote Originally Posted by SirJohnDrake:

I understand there is no common set of atheists beliefs. Just as there are misconceptions of the Christian religion there are also misconceptions of atheism.

Some of your fellow atheists look at their lives as meaningful and with purpose. They view each life as being very precious.

I agree with Rostos, in that you can't have it both ways kk. You either believe life is meaningless or life is meaningful and with purpose.

Life is inherently meaningless. However, my life can be meaningful relative to humanity and relative to others.

Example: my life is meaningful to my mother, my father, and my sister

Example: my life is meaningful if I contribute something substantial to society

SirJohnDrake

All-Star

Joined: Jan, 2006

Posts: 14765

Posted: Jan. 4, 2012 - 10:08 PM ET #4198

Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:

Life is inherently meaningless. However, my life can be meaningful relative to humanity and relative to others.

Example: my life is meaningful to my mother, my father, and my sister

Example: my life is meaningful if I contribute something substantial to society

Given this scenario, how would you feel if the world has another World War and engages in an all out nuclear war that pretty much comes close to annihilating everyone.. I would assume if you regard life as meaningless you wouldn't be terribly upset then...right?.... if you were one of the handful of survivors?

Would you then just say oh hell with it and just blow yourself away too?

Rostos

Hall of Fame

Joined: Feb, 2009

Posts: 27785

Posted: Jan. 5, 2012 - 12:16 AM ET #4199

If EVERYTHING is meaningless, then everything is meaningless.

Every word you have spoken is meaningless.

You cant say everything is meaningless but your words are meaningful.....

its like the married bachelor

Mikniks

Veteran

Joined: Nov, 2010

Posts: 1384

Posted: Jan. 5, 2012 - 6:43 AM ET #4200

Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

If EVERYTHING is meaningless, then everything is meaningless.

Every word you have spoken is meaningless.

You cant say everything is meaningless but your words are meaningful.....

its like the married bachelor

Looks like Kitty is keeping his word by ignoring you.

I guess I should too, since you clearly can't understand what we're saying.

All Forums | General Discussion

If Christ died on the cross for all of humanity

Hot Forum Topics