Posted:
#51
preach on preacher,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,can i get an AMEN!!!!!!
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Does Religious Belief Make You a Better Person?
Posted:
#52
Like so many other things it all depends on how you approach it.
If you approach it in a way where it is a very personal thing. A belief system, that empowers your life.
Religious beliefs can be extremely empowering to a persons life if he/she treats it as his/hers own personal compas.
Follow the Bible, the Tora, the Koran or any other scripture but keep it to yourself. Live as you see fit, if someone needs to be judged let it be yourself, and if you reach out to others, do not try and enforce your views upon them.
And the point where religious beliefs becomes dangerous is when it transcends from being a deeply personal thing, to a more common public issue.
Look at all the ills that comes from religion being forced on others. Wars... sects, missionary's, daily hassles with people who try to enforce their view on you.
Politics...society etc. Religion has no business in the public square. Every time i see those TV preachers on Network news shows speaking up about policy issues from a religious perspective it makes me sick.
For those people their faith makes them worse of. That is the great irony of many religions. The fact that what it should be, it is not.
It should be a personal relationship between human and god... not between human - society, and human to human.
Another point to that regard is when religious people say that we can not have marriage between gay men, or lesbian woman. It is gods word.
I say, if that is gods word, fine, if you as the individual do believe in god, and his faith and it empowers you to follow him, then by all means, do not get married with a gay man.
But not everyone is a Christian. Some might not be anything, others might be Hindu or some other faith, why should they accept something like that.
If you approach it in a way where it is a very personal thing. A belief system, that empowers your life.
Religious beliefs can be extremely empowering to a persons life if he/she treats it as his/hers own personal compas.
Follow the Bible, the Tora, the Koran or any other scripture but keep it to yourself. Live as you see fit, if someone needs to be judged let it be yourself, and if you reach out to others, do not try and enforce your views upon them.
And the point where religious beliefs becomes dangerous is when it transcends from being a deeply personal thing, to a more common public issue.
Look at all the ills that comes from religion being forced on others. Wars... sects, missionary's, daily hassles with people who try to enforce their view on you.
Politics...society etc. Religion has no business in the public square. Every time i see those TV preachers on Network news shows speaking up about policy issues from a religious perspective it makes me sick.
For those people their faith makes them worse of. That is the great irony of many religions. The fact that what it should be, it is not.
It should be a personal relationship between human and god... not between human - society, and human to human.
Another point to that regard is when religious people say that we can not have marriage between gay men, or lesbian woman. It is gods word.
I say, if that is gods word, fine, if you as the individual do believe in god, and his faith and it empowers you to follow him, then by all means, do not get married with a gay man.
But not everyone is a Christian. Some might not be anything, others might be Hindu or some other faith, why should they accept something like that.
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Posted:
#53
I suppose it's not too surprising that on a gambling site there won't be too many Defenders of the Faith.
But if I'd posted the original thread on the General boards of many other sites - not religiious ones, maybe the discussion boards for computere, real estate, gardening, etc etc - there wouldl be a lot of very sprited howling from the religious contingent.
But bettting - umm, doesn't one of the gospels tell how a few Roman soldiers were rolling dice for the garments of Jesus. (Which seems strange that a poor man like that would have garments, blood-stained too, that soldiers would want - were they expensive silks or what, and how did he come by them?)
Any strong Christian would likely be ashamed to be known to be such a gambler that he visits a site devoted to it.
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Posted:
#54
Quote Originally Posted by luckbythetruck:
I suppose it's not too surprising that on a gambling site there won't be too many Defenders of the Faith.
But if I'd posted the original thread on the General boards of many other sites - not religiious ones, maybe the discussion boards for computere, real estate, gardening, etc etc - there wouldl be a lot of very sprited howling from the religious contingent.
But bettting - umm, doesn't one of the gospels tell how a few Roman soldiers were rolling dice for the garments of Jesus. (Which seems strange that a poor man like that would have garments, blood-stained too, that soldiers would want - were they expensive silks or what, and how did he come by them?)
Any strong Christian would likely be ashamed to be known to be such a gambler that he visits a site devoted to it.
i actually am a little surprised, but when you think about it, what's their argument? These people rely on "faith" rather than fact.
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Posted:
#55
Quote Originally Posted by luckbythetruck:
I suppose it's not too surprising that on a gambling site there won't be too many Defenders of the Faith.
But if I'd posted the original thread on the General boards of many other sites - not religiious ones, maybe the discussion boards for computere, real estate, gardening, etc etc - there wouldl be a lot of very sprited howling from the religious contingent.
But bettting - umm, doesn't one of the gospels tell how a few Roman soldiers were rolling dice for the garments of Jesus. (Which seems strange that a poor man like that would have garments, blood-stained too, that soldiers would want - were they expensive silks or what, and how did he come by them?)
Any strong Christian would likely be ashamed to be known to be such a gambler that he visits a site devoted to it.
i'd like to go to a religious site or maybe just a regular, non-degenerate site and throw some of these ideas out there and get a good discussion going (and take a few of the more knowledgeable guys here with me like vanzack, luck, cacabre and others). i think that would be interesting. of course, you always get a certain eprcentage who will tell me i'll get stuck by lightning or go to hell for asking critical questions but there have to be some people who can strongly defend the religions of christianity, islam and others without coming across as completely illogical and neurotic.
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Posted:
#56
The one thing that seperates Christianity from many other reigions is very basic.....I will get to that in a minute........ I recently have struggled and like you luckybythe truck I use to point out so called born again christians and the bad things they did that did not equate to a christian lifestyle. The interesting thing I learned is many horrible things througout history have been done under a processed belief in christiantity......this does not make them christians because they claim they are. Jesus says that many will try to enter heaven and he will tell them your name is not in the book of life and I have not known you. But here is the story that helped change my life,
I was attending a Sunday School class when an eccentric chemistry teacher shared his story of non believing and then ultimately salvation. He had been raised an athiest and had researched many different religions, thus ruling out each one. The one religion Chuck could never rule out was Christianity even though he wanted too. He decided to give himself four years to pour through the Bible and other manuscripts as well discuss his findings with people on each end of the debate. This is what he learned.
1. The one thing that differentiates Jesus Christ from all of the other human prohets of other religions is the Resurection of his body. Without this occuring Jesus Christ would have been just another human claiming things that were not true.
Chuck immediately spoke to as many people as possible and came up with these possible conclusions:
A. The disciples must have visited the tomb rolled the massive stone away and removed his body. Answer from Roman scholars and others was this is highly unlikely. The disciples were pursed and were leaving town in a hurry...also the tomb was heavily guarded as the Romans knew Christ claimed he would rise from the dead. So the last thing they would allow would be for someone to walk in and take the body.
B. What would have been the easiest way for the Roman leadership to prove Christ was not King. The answer is very simple and has puzzled non believers for some time. The Romans would have removed Christ Body and shown the masses...."Here is your King, they would have said, proving the resurrection was false." Scholars conclude they would have done this likely before massive decomposition so they would not be accused of showing a body that was not Jesus.
These were the two major reasons Chuck became a Christian and so did I. Jesus died on the cross for our sins and no one can enter heaven without knowing him. The answer is simple and sometimes in my opinion Pastors make it difficult I willl leave you with the verses the will change your life if you let them:
John 3-16-3-18 " For God so loved the world he gave his won and only son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemmed, but whoever but whoever does not believe stands condemmed already because he has not believed in the name of Gods one and only son."
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Posted:
#57
diamond, you wrote this: no one can enter heaven without knowing him.
despite all the evil and hatred in the bible and in christianity that vanzack and others have pointed out (murder figures that are appalling and make cancer, AIDS, all illegal drugs, car accidents, etc, etc seem like paper cuts), i'm ready to sign up. can you just offer any concrete proof that this statement is accurate? if not, i don't see where your religion is any different from any of ther other thousands of religions that make promises and threats with the ability to prove any of it. for instance, bin laden, a highly intelligent and motivated person and one extremely well respected in certain circles in this world, says i have to join the jihad and perhaps strap a bomb belt on and detonate it in the local infidel restaurant to get to heaven. what proof is there that he is wrong?
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Posted:
#60
Quote Originally Posted by ClubDirt:
i'd like to go to a religious site or maybe just a regular, non-degenerate site and throw some of these ideas out there and get a good discussion going (and take a few of the more knowledgeable guys here with me like vanzack, luck, cacabre and others). i think that would be interesting. of course, you always get a certain eprcentage who will tell me i'll get stuck by lightning or go to hell for asking critical questions but there have to be some people who can strongly defend the religions of christianity, islam and others without coming across as completely illogical and neurotic.
There aren't too many topics i'm extremely passionate about (talk of hurting animals- especially dogs or the legalization and decriminalization of marijuana will also get me excited). I just feel that this topic is one of which i know. I've been on both sides, Irish Catholic family, went to church for 18 years, it was all i knew. And then one day i woke up. If you just take the time to explore this topic, you can't ignore the facts that are presented, and that's what i'm challenging everyone to do. If you can present me with facts that prove i'm wrong (you can't 
)--i'm totally open for discussion.
I grew up with this kid who's family came from Palestine. He was a devout muslim, did the fasting shit--the whole nine (at football practice during ramadan he couldn't even drink water). Anyway, we went to college together, and by the time he was 22, he was not a believer anymore. The kid just had way too much common sense to not question the craziness that is religion- and more specifically- islam. So, basically, if a devout muslim who's family comes from a fanatical religious area such as the Middle East can see the light---ANYONE CAN.
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Posted:
#61
Quote Originally Posted by ClubDirt:
diamond, you wrote this: no one can enter heaven without knowing him.
diamond, you wrote this: no one can enter heaven without knowing him.
despite all the evil and hatred in the bible and in christianity that vanzack and others have pointed out (murder figures that are appalling and make cancer, AIDS, all illegal drugs, car accidents, etc, etc seem like paper cuts), i'm ready to sign up. can you just offer any concrete proof that this statement is accurate? if not, i don't see where your religion is any different from any of ther other thousands of religions that make promises and threats with the ability to prove any of it. for instance, bin laden, a highly intelligent and motivated person and one extremely well respected in certain circles in this world, says i have to join the jihad and perhaps strap a bomb belt on and detonate it in the local infidel restaurant to get to heaven. what proof is there that he is wrong?
Please understand Thats not my opinion that is simply what Jesus said. The concrete proof of what Jesus says is the resurrection of his body....google it and try to find proof it did not happen....also I hear what others are saying about things that happened throughout the Bible but I am speaking of the things Jesus did. Follow his teachings and really read them....what is his consistent message? He is critical of chrisitians who ommitt non believers and act as if their better then them. He opens his arms to prostitutes. thieves, (IE the one on the cross next to him) etc...and does not seperate and condemn but shows the way. For certain God made decisions documented in the Bible that punished non believers before and after Christ came....but that is not for me too question...its not about me. You ask for proof I give it to you the Jesus Christ who came back from the dead, this makes what he said true whether we choose to accept or not is a personal choice. At least study what I have said about the ressurection, it is the key. As for being on this site I really like it for sure I am a sinner. I gamble, drink too much but I never deny Jesus son of God and I understand only one man was perfect and he died on the cross along time ago.
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Posted:
#62
i'm all for that, diamond. people who treat other people right (even blacks, person and people of other, less popular religions) and don't think they are better than them based on some belief system. i know there are christians and muslims who do that.
i think we have a different meaning of the word proof. i was looking for actual proof that to know jesus gives someone a ticket into heaven. by proof, i mean i'm looking for scientific fact or my own ability to make the observation or someone who can testify that he/she's known jesus and as a result has been to heaven. you know, evidence.
as for whether or not jesus or anyone else has come back from the dead. i haven't seen evidence of that. but i don't know history and religion like some others i've referenced here so i'll defer to them as to whether or not this has been proven as a fact. but i do know logic and critical analysis and if jesus or anyone else has come back from the dead, i don't know that that necessarily means there is a heaven or to know jesus gets me there. wouldn't that mean hundreds of other religions are wrong and what proof do we have allowing us to dismiss the teachings of these other religions?
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Posted:
#63
Quote Originally Posted by Diamondjake:
Please understand Thats not my opinion that is simply what Jesus said. The concrete proof of what Jesus says is the resurrection of his body....google it and try to find proof it did not happen....also I hear what others are saying about things that happened throughout the Bible but I am speaking of the things Jesus did. Follow his teachings and really read them....what is his consistent message? He is critical of chrisitians who ommitt non believers and act as if their better then them. He opens his arms to prostitutes. thieves, (IE the one on the cross next to him) etc...and does not seperate and condemn but shows the way. For certain God made decisions documented in the Bible that punished non believers before and after Christ came....but that is not for me too question...its not about me. You ask for proof I give it to you the Jesus Christ who came back from the dead, this makes what he said true whether we choose to accept or not is a personal choice. At least study what I have said about the ressurection, it is the key. As for being on this site I really like it for sure I am a sinner. I gamble, drink too much but I never deny Jesus son of God and I understand only one man was perfect and he died on the cross along time ago.
The Ultimate Glass of Kool Aid.
Ok. Forget that there is no ACTUAL FACTUAL PROOF to this resurrection you speak of. Lets play it your way---lets say that these fairies---excuse me--- "saviors" all did exist and jesus was resurrected---is it safe to say that Jesus came a little late to the resurrection party? If Attis (born of virgin, December 25th, crucified and was resurrected after 3 days), Krishna (India, 900 B.C., born of a virgin, performed miracles, and was resureccted) Dionysus (Greece 500 B.C. born of a virgin, December 25th, was resurrected) Mithra (persia 1200 B.C., born of a virgin on december 25th, performed miracles, resurrected after 3 days) all predated jesus christ-- was Jesus a scam artist?
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Posted:
#64
Club, trust me everyone wishes we had concrete proof, but the difference in what Jesus says and religions started by humans (Scientology, Jehovah Witness etc....is we believe in the son of God Jesus who proved his teachings are and were true by dying for our sins and then rising from the dead as he predicted proving he was not a human being making his own religion but was one with GOD. No other religion can claim this. What do other religions base their beliefs on writings of Humans? The Bible was written by Humans directed from Jesus who prove the scripture is true through the ressurection.
Also if it is wrong I am good with treating others well and not murdering children as Osama Bin Laden and others would direct you. If you ask me Jesus teachings of tolerance, love for children, and different races are much more upliffting then murder those you disagree with. Common sense comes into play here as well....who does many of the religions benefit? The person that wrote it. Telling you this does not benifit any human I know of other then you.
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Posted:
#66
ok, i think then we have moved from the realm of fact and what we know to the realm of belief and what we think. and there's nothing wrong with that as long as respect other equally unproven beliefs. obviously, if one religion was speaking in facts as to what will happen if one does or does not join them, there may not be a need for these thousands of other religions.
i have heard arguments of how other religions, bin laden's for example, are violent so they should be discounted as bogus. i mean, bin laden used his religioon to justify the murder of all those people in the twin towers. we assume his religion can't be legitimate. but is that only because we are all so egocentric?
imagine if you are just a normal family in iraq. you've never done anything wrong to anyone. all of the sudden, american planes are dropping bombs on you killing your children, other family members and friends. and then you hear bush and palin cite their god and their religion as support for that, which they absolutely did. can't those innocent iraqi's use the same argument that the christian religion and god are so barbaric that there's no way they can be legitimate? how is an iraqi's opinion of christianity any different from an american's opinion of bin ladin's islam?
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Posted:
#67
Quote Originally Posted by cacabware:
The Ultimate Glass of Kool Aid.
Ok. Forget that there is no ACTUAL FACTUAL PROOF to this resurrection you speak of. Lets play it your way---lets say that these fairies---excuse me--- "saviors" all did exist and jesus was resurrected---is it safe to say that Jesus came a little late to the resurrection party? If Attis (born of virgin, December 25th, crucified and was resurrected after 3 days), Krishna (India, 900 B.C., born of a virgin, performed miracles, and was resureccted) Dionysus (Greece 500 B.C. born of a virgin, December 25th, was resurrected) Mithra (persia 1200 B.C., born of a virgin on december 25th, performed miracles, resurrected after 3 days) all predated jesus christ-- was Jesus a scam artist?
The fact that you have knowledge of the cults would lead me to believe you would spend a little time researching your claims. Thier are many false prophets as the scripture will tell you. Read John 3:16 again. Jesus said it not me. Also here is a quick reference that blows ATTIS theory apart. I can provide more if you like. Sounds like your parents did all they could. Maybe you should try the kool aide again.
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Posted:
#68
Quote Originally Posted by Diamondjake:
The fact that you have knowledge of the cults would lead me to believe you would spend a little time researching your claims. Thier are many false prophets as the scripture will tell you. Read John 3:16 again. Jesus said it not me. Also here is a quick reference that blows ATTIS theory apart. I can provide more if you like. Sounds like your parents did all they could. Maybe you should try the kool aide again.
right kool aid boy,,,,,all the other "fairies" are "fake" but YOUR FAIRY is the Real Deal Holyfield. 
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Posted:
#69
Quote Originally Posted by ClubDirt:
ok, i think then we have moved from the realm of fact and what we know to the realm of belief and what we think. and there's nothing wrong with that as long as respect other equally unproven beliefs. obviously, if one religion was speaking in facts as to what will happen if one does or does not join them, there may not be a need for these thousands of other religions.
ok, i think then we have moved from the realm of fact and what we know to the realm of belief and what we think. and there's nothing wrong with that as long as respect other equally unproven beliefs. obviously, if one religion was speaking in facts as to what will happen if one does or does not join them, there may not be a need for these thousands of other religions.
i have heard arguments of how other religions, bin laden's for example, are violent so they should be discounted as bogus. i mean, bin laden used his religioon to justify the murder of all those people in the twin towers. we assume his religion can't be legitimate. but is that only because we are all so egocentric?
imagine if you are just a normal family in iraq. you've never done anything wrong to anyone. all of the sudden, american planes are dropping bombs on you killing your children, other family members and friends. and then you hear bush and palin cite their god and their religion as support for that, which they absolutely did. can't those innocent iraqi's use the same argument that the christian religion and god are so barbaric that there's no way they can be legitimate? how is an iraqi's opinion of christianity any different from an american's opinion of bin ladin's islam?
Of course it is probable the Iraquis could see it that way. Whether what Busch did is right or wrong is a different discussion and whether what Busch did is between him and God but it doesnt change Jesus message. Jesus does not say the USA is always right. Think about it.
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Posted:
#71
Quote Originally Posted by Diamondjake:
Of course it is probable the Iraquis could see it that way. Whether what Busch did is right or wrong is a different discussion and whether what Busch did is between him and God but it doesnt change Jesus message. Jesus does not say the USA is always right. Think about it.
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Posted:
#72
Quote Originally Posted by cacabware:
it's ok, he's from st. louis. 
diamond, i'm not arguing whether what bush did was right or wrong. that's a different discussion. my point is some christians want to argue that radical islam is a bullshit religion because look how violent they are. no god could condone that. disregarding the incredibly violent history of christiantiy, just looking at recent times, an iraqi and many other people in the middle east could make the same argument about christianity. so my point is, the argument that x religion is less valid than any other because it's violent or its leaders use that religion to preach and practice violence does not work to promote the vailidity of christianity. logically.
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Posted:
#73
That asshole that held up the John 3:16 sign for so many years got some prison time for something, I think it was for holding a woman in a hotel against her will or something like that. I don't know for how long or whether he is out but he got some serious time.
My philosophy is:Live and let live. Let anyone practice whatever form of worship he desires. Having been raised by religious fanatic parents (they meant well, they just KNEW their church was the only right one) I had shied away from most of the public "Christians" who advertise that they are. Cover your wallet and your gonads whenever one of them is in range. The businessman that says "I'm a Christian" is the one that will take advantage or downright screw you out of your money and anything else he can. This does not mean that I do not believe in God, I just don't belong to any organized religion. I certainly don't go around advertising that I'm a Christian because I'm not sure that I am and don't think it is anyone's business but mine. Good luck to you and your religious beliefs. (Unless you're a Muslim, LOL.)
My philosophy is:Live and let live. Let anyone practice whatever form of worship he desires. Having been raised by religious fanatic parents (they meant well, they just KNEW their church was the only right one) I had shied away from most of the public "Christians" who advertise that they are. Cover your wallet and your gonads whenever one of them is in range. The businessman that says "I'm a Christian" is the one that will take advantage or downright screw you out of your money and anything else he can. This does not mean that I do not believe in God, I just don't belong to any organized religion. I certainly don't go around advertising that I'm a Christian because I'm not sure that I am and don't think it is anyone's business but mine. Good luck to you and your religious beliefs. (Unless you're a Muslim, LOL.)
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Posted:
#75
I would like to express admiration for Jake to come on what is clearly a skeptic-dominated forum and put forth his views. Giving "witness" is a time-honored Christian practice. In the old, dying days of the Roman Empire it often meant placing one's life on the line. But all world religions have a plenitude of martyrs - even Falun Gong, now persecuted in China.
Yes, Club, one would get the arguments advanced by Jake on other non-degen forums, but here it is a bit unusual. A few other Christians have contributed here, but in almost an apologetic kind of way.
The Christian dogma, like any other that cannot be sustained scientifically, is a matter of faith. The question would then arise as to the "value" of faith. Isn't patriotism largely a matter of faith? Isn't your conviction that your children are smarter and better-looking than anyone else's a matter of faith? Or that you have the most intelligent dog in the country? Or that you will be a big winner this football season? All strictly subjective - but not without value to you!
Sometimes it's the results that vindicate the belief. Many a pagan, or non-believer, or outright atheist, has entered prison for a long term and ended a fanatic Christian. The New Testament has proven over the ages to be the Balm of Gilead to sufferers.
As cab has pointed out (following the research done by Fraser in The Golden Bough) almost all the long-dead gods of antiquity had both virgin births and/or miraculous resurrections. I believe those claims were also advanced for a young ruler and military man, Alexander the Great. Certainly some of his ancient devotees put forth the idea that he was of Virgin Birth - which clearly dissed his daddy, Philip of Macedon!!
It doesn't mean it is "true" in any objective manner. It means it is effective. Almost all the Manson followers who served (and some still serving) long jail terms became Christians. In doing so they surrendered their faith in the "magician" Manson (who in some ways resembles another magician who had a great effect upon women, the mad monk Rasputin, who had the Czarina in his grasp and made certain the success of the Bolshevik revolution.)
I kind of admire Squeaky Fromme (recently released after a long jail term for aining a gun - unchambered - at Gerry Ford) for never collapsing before the cross, but instead maintaining her "faith" in Charlie - she went with the magician she personally knew, rather than one who lived 2000 years ago.
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