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    All Forums | General Discussion

    Christianity continued....

    «First Previous 123 ... 91011 Next Last»
    EX4life
    CRRECORDS
    matt4000
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    «First Previous 123 ... 91011 Next Last»
     
    EX4life
    EX4life
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    Joined: Dec, 2009
    Posts: 13235
    Posted: Nov. 12, 2011 - 5:50 AM ET #201

    Invoking the Death Penalty:
    Matthew 16: 24-26, “Then Jesus said to his disciples, ‘If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it. What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?’”

    We live in an increasingly secular society that lacks a solid foundation upon which to base moral judgments. This makes it quite difficult for those who write, debate, vote upon, and interpret the laws to sort through the maze of rhetoric to define what the real issues are. Morality takes on only a variety of shades of gray to those who have no foundation upon which to base those principles.

    The Judgment/Mercy Connection:
    Does “Judge not” imply that anything is permitted? Jesus’ words must be kept in mind, “Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.” Paul warns against hypocritical judgment – condemning others for what you yourself do – “Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.” (Romans 2:1)

    On one hand the exhortation is not to judge while on the other hand is the command to judge righteously. Where is the middle ground? What is it that the Christian is expected to do? Jesus provides us the answers to those questions by His actions. After all, what is our motive in judging? Is it to gossip? To condemn? To elevate ourselves in the sight of others? Or is it to help redeem and restore that which is lost?

    If immorality of every sort is wrong, and God has declared such to be the case, that sin will stand between the sinner and God. Maintaining that we are not to judge sin perpetuates the myth that no harm is caused by sin. The Church must continue to uphold God’s Law and declare unequivocally what is morally right and wrong. To do otherwise creates the moral confusion that has enslaved our culture today.

    And yet there are those who will raise the battle cry, “Judge not! Judge not!” Here is the crux of the matter – to withhold judgment does not imply to ignore the Law. There is a distinct difference between judgmentalism and moral discernment. The passage in Matthew 7:1 forbids the former not the latter. Furthermore, the passage in John 7:24 requires that moral and theological discernment be made. Paul’s letter to the Galatians contains how this should be done (Gal. 6: 1-2).

    Recognizing sin for what it is does not imply that the person trapped in the sin is beyond hope. Paul speaks of identifying the sin in order to restore the sinner to the community and to God. This must be done in a spirit of humility, not arrogance. Are Christians without sin in order that they may throw stones? No, Christians are forgiven of sin that they may share God’s love and grace with others. Keep tightly connected the concept of judgment and mercy. Seek to redeem the sinner to God. God’s sole purpose in sending Jesus into the world was to save it, not to pronounce its condemnation. Likewise we must be bold enough to call sin for what it is. If the Church will not arise in this wicked and adulterous generation to proclaim the Truth, no one else will.
    Reply
    Invoking the Death Penalty:
    Matthew 16: 24-26, “Then Jesus said to his disciples, ‘If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it. What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?’”

    We live in an increasingly secular society that lacks a solid foundation upon which to base moral judgments. This makes it quite difficult for those who write, debate, vote upon, and interpret the laws to sort through the maze of rhetoric to define what the real issues are. Morality takes on only a variety of shades of gray to those who have no foundation upon which to base those principles.

    The Judgment/Mercy Connection:
    Does “Judge not” imply that anything is permitted? Jesus’ words must be kept in mind, “Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.” Paul warns against hypocritical judgment – condemning others for what you yourself do – “Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.” (Romans 2:1)

    On one hand the exhortation is not to judge while on the other hand is the command to judge righteously. Where is the middle ground? What is it that the Christian is expected to do? Jesus provides us the answers to those questions by His actions. After all, what is our motive in judging? Is it to gossip? To condemn? To elevate ourselves in the sight of others? Or is it to help redeem and restore that which is lost?

    If immorality of every sort is wrong, and God has declared such to be the case, that sin will stand between the sinner and God. Maintaining that we are not to judge sin perpetuates the myth that no harm is caused by sin. The Church must continue to uphold God’s Law and declare unequivocally what is morally right and wrong. To do otherwise creates the moral confusion that has enslaved our culture today.

    And yet there are those who will raise the battle cry, “Judge not! Judge not!” Here is the crux of the matter – to withhold judgment does not imply to ignore the Law. There is a distinct difference between judgmentalism and moral discernment. The passage in Matthew 7:1 forbids the former not the latter. Furthermore, the passage in John 7:24 requires that moral and theological discernment be made. Paul’s letter to the Galatians contains how this should be done (Gal. 6: 1-2).

    Recognizing sin for what it is does not imply that the person trapped in the sin is beyond hope. Paul speaks of identifying the sin in order to restore the sinner to the community and to God. This must be done in a spirit of humility, not arrogance. Are Christians without sin in order that they may throw stones? No, Christians are forgiven of sin that they may share God’s love and grace with others. Keep tightly connected the concept of judgment and mercy. Seek to redeem the sinner to God. God’s sole purpose in sending Jesus into the world was to save it, not to pronounce its condemnation. Likewise we must be bold enough to call sin for what it is. If the Church will not arise in this wicked and adulterous generation to proclaim the Truth, no one else will.
     
    EX4life
    EX4life
    All-Star
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Dec, 2009
    Posts: 13235
    Posted: Nov. 12, 2011 - 5:51 AM ET #202

    Concern for Those in Darkness:
    Some suppose that not even the Church is to raise a moral standard by which people ought to live. All are welcome to come, but a criterion for righteous living is neglected. This is not the New Testament standard. Christ welcomed all and changed them. Christians are not called to be conformed to this world, but to be transformed by the renewing of their mind (Rom. 12:2) that they might die to sin and live to righteousness (1 Peter 2:24) as new creations in Christ (2 Cor. 5:17).

    Far too often the Church and her people are asleep in the light hoping that God will find some other way to save the world. Wouldn’t it be easier if He would convict people of their sins without us having to mention a word? Wouldn’t it be easier if people on their own would recognize their own sins and turn from them? Wouldn’t it be easier if that first sin in the garden long ago had never beencommitted?

    But such is not the case. Jesus commissioned His followers, His Church, to be His voice to a world that does not know Him. “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age” (Matt. 28: 19-20).

    Lay aside the apathy that blinds the eyes and deafens the ears. Truly care about the person caught in the snares of the serpent who has deceived them that God did not really mean what He said. Judge with righteousness, not in pettiness. Judge with grace and mercy, not to condemn and vilify. Know that you were also a sinner redeemed solely by the love and grace of Jesus Christ, and purchased by His blood. In speaking the truth in love, not through condemnation, perhaps the prodigal will recall the Father’s voice and travel the road back home. The Father will not wait for the wayward child to come crawling across the threshold. At the first sign of returning, the waiting Father will run to His child and restore the relationship which had been so callously renounced (from the parables in the fifteenth chapter of Luke).

    The Law and Society:
    This is precisely the point where many people begin to scream about the supposed “wall of separation” between Church and State. The founders of our country presupposed that the Christian faith would govern the affairs of government. 
    1. John Adams, George Washington’s vice president and the second president, wrote, “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” 
    2. The honorable John Jay, the first chief justice of the Supreme Court, wrote, “Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty… of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.” 
    3. Thomas Jefferson wrote, “Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God?”

    Chuck Colson, who is one of my favorite people to listen to (he has some great books to read as well), relates a story concerning the woes of teaching morals without a Judeo-Christian foundation to build them upon:
    Reply
    Concern for Those in Darkness:
    Some suppose that not even the Church is to raise a moral standard by which people ought to live. All are welcome to come, but a criterion for righteous living is neglected. This is not the New Testament standard. Christ welcomed all and changed them. Christians are not called to be conformed to this world, but to be transformed by the renewing of their mind (Rom. 12:2) that they might die to sin and live to righteousness (1 Peter 2:24) as new creations in Christ (2 Cor. 5:17).

    Far too often the Church and her people are asleep in the light hoping that God will find some other way to save the world. Wouldn’t it be easier if He would convict people of their sins without us having to mention a word? Wouldn’t it be easier if people on their own would recognize their own sins and turn from them? Wouldn’t it be easier if that first sin in the garden long ago had never beencommitted?

    But such is not the case. Jesus commissioned His followers, His Church, to be His voice to a world that does not know Him. “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age” (Matt. 28: 19-20).

    Lay aside the apathy that blinds the eyes and deafens the ears. Truly care about the person caught in the snares of the serpent who has deceived them that God did not really mean what He said. Judge with righteousness, not in pettiness. Judge with grace and mercy, not to condemn and vilify. Know that you were also a sinner redeemed solely by the love and grace of Jesus Christ, and purchased by His blood. In speaking the truth in love, not through condemnation, perhaps the prodigal will recall the Father’s voice and travel the road back home. The Father will not wait for the wayward child to come crawling across the threshold. At the first sign of returning, the waiting Father will run to His child and restore the relationship which had been so callously renounced (from the parables in the fifteenth chapter of Luke).

    The Law and Society:
    This is precisely the point where many people begin to scream about the supposed “wall of separation” between Church and State. The founders of our country presupposed that the Christian faith would govern the affairs of government. 
    1. John Adams, George Washington’s vice president and the second president, wrote, “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” 
    2. The honorable John Jay, the first chief justice of the Supreme Court, wrote, “Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty… of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.” 
    3. Thomas Jefferson wrote, “Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God?”

    Chuck Colson, who is one of my favorite people to listen to (he has some great books to read as well), relates a story concerning the woes of teaching morals without a Judeo-Christian foundation to build them upon:
     
    EX4life
    EX4life
    All-Star
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Dec, 2009
    Posts: 13235
    Posted: Nov. 12, 2011 - 5:51 AM ET #203

    “I recently chatted with a newspaper editor who boasted that he had spearheaded efforts to remove the 10 Commandments from the walls of local classrooms. The editor was proud of his success in promoting a more ‘liberal’ education. Yet moments later, he was bemoaning crime in the schools – the epidemic of cheating and fighting. ‘Perhaps,’ I suggested, ‘you ought to put a sign on the wall… telling kids not to steal.’ The editor stared at me and then turned away without uttering a word. For, of course, he had worked hard to remove just such a sign – one that said ‘You shall not steal’ – along with the rest of the 10 commandments…

    What the editor failed to see is that the liberal approach to moral education is closely linked to increasing crime and disorder. As Phillip Johnson explains in his new book Reason in the Balance, liberal education is based on the philosophy of naturalism: That there is no God. The implication is that morality is based not on God’s commandments but on individual choices. Every person’s goal in life are intrinsically as good as every other person’s, and no one has a right to “impose” morality on anyone else – not even on his or her own children.”

    If Christians do not stand up for Truth, if they do not make a claim for morality, who will? Parents have the responsibility to teach their children what is right and true. We have the responsibility to elect leaders who are moral and just, who will strive to enact laws that promote true justice and virtue. Christians do not need to be involved in “witch hunts” or heresy hounding, but neither should they ignore the evil and the heresies when they become apparent. Christians must know the Truth and be willing to stand up for it.

    Present-day Problems:
    Today there are many who support curricula that advocate homosexuality as a viable alternative lifestyle. Some argue that homosexuals should be put in a favorable light in every subject being taught. The myth gets perpetrated that “one-in-ten are homosexual – maybe even you.” Youth are being confused about sexual identity altogether. They are left without a definitive notion of right and wrong because nothing is permitted upon which to base such concepts. Premarital sex is encouraged (provided it is “safe-sex”) and the unwanted consequences can be disposed of with little accountability or responsibility. Youth who are in the midst of forming interpersonal and sexual identities are taught that there is nothing inherently right or wrong, better or worse, between a homosexual relationship and a heterosexual one.

    Many states are facing issues similar to the Assembly Bill 222 and the Senate Bill 1260 introduced in California in 1999. AB 222 would result in homosexual curriculum and the promotion of homosexual marriage from children as early as Kindergarten and on through the Twelfth Grade. Schools opposing these efforts could be punished by the federal “hate crimes” legislation. Religious schools which do not conform to the bills could be banned from interscholastic sports leagues and students at religious colleges could be prohibited from receiving state financial aid. SB 1260 would require children as young as Kindergarten age to be taught about homosexuality and sessions concerning “homophobia” would be mandated.
    Reply
    “I recently chatted with a newspaper editor who boasted that he had spearheaded efforts to remove the 10 Commandments from the walls of local classrooms. The editor was proud of his success in promoting a more ‘liberal’ education. Yet moments later, he was bemoaning crime in the schools – the epidemic of cheating and fighting. ‘Perhaps,’ I suggested, ‘you ought to put a sign on the wall… telling kids not to steal.’ The editor stared at me and then turned away without uttering a word. For, of course, he had worked hard to remove just such a sign – one that said ‘You shall not steal’ – along with the rest of the 10 commandments…

    What the editor failed to see is that the liberal approach to moral education is closely linked to increasing crime and disorder. As Phillip Johnson explains in his new book Reason in the Balance, liberal education is based on the philosophy of naturalism: That there is no God. The implication is that morality is based not on God’s commandments but on individual choices. Every person’s goal in life are intrinsically as good as every other person’s, and no one has a right to “impose” morality on anyone else – not even on his or her own children.”

    If Christians do not stand up for Truth, if they do not make a claim for morality, who will? Parents have the responsibility to teach their children what is right and true. We have the responsibility to elect leaders who are moral and just, who will strive to enact laws that promote true justice and virtue. Christians do not need to be involved in “witch hunts” or heresy hounding, but neither should they ignore the evil and the heresies when they become apparent. Christians must know the Truth and be willing to stand up for it.

    Present-day Problems:
    Today there are many who support curricula that advocate homosexuality as a viable alternative lifestyle. Some argue that homosexuals should be put in a favorable light in every subject being taught. The myth gets perpetrated that “one-in-ten are homosexual – maybe even you.” Youth are being confused about sexual identity altogether. They are left without a definitive notion of right and wrong because nothing is permitted upon which to base such concepts. Premarital sex is encouraged (provided it is “safe-sex”) and the unwanted consequences can be disposed of with little accountability or responsibility. Youth who are in the midst of forming interpersonal and sexual identities are taught that there is nothing inherently right or wrong, better or worse, between a homosexual relationship and a heterosexual one.

    Many states are facing issues similar to the Assembly Bill 222 and the Senate Bill 1260 introduced in California in 1999. AB 222 would result in homosexual curriculum and the promotion of homosexual marriage from children as early as Kindergarten and on through the Twelfth Grade. Schools opposing these efforts could be punished by the federal “hate crimes” legislation. Religious schools which do not conform to the bills could be banned from interscholastic sports leagues and students at religious colleges could be prohibited from receiving state financial aid. SB 1260 would require children as young as Kindergarten age to be taught about homosexuality and sessions concerning “homophobia” would be mandated.
     
    EX4life
    EX4life
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    Joined: Dec, 2009
    Posts: 13235
    Posted: Nov. 12, 2011 - 5:52 AM ET #204

    These attitudes fly in the face of Biblical injunctions. God will not continue to bless a nation who so defiantly rejects any concept of a moral law or a covenant with Him. It doesn’t take much perusing through the Old Testament to perceive the effects of Israel’s rejection of the Lord God. Perhaps every great civilization has first fallen internally on the basis of moral degeneracy.

    Isaiah spoke a word of caution against those who desire to confuse right and wrong (Is. 5:20). The prophet also addressed the ability of a child to learn right and wrong when he predicted future events, “but before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid to waste.” (Is. 7:16)

    Not only does a child have the capacity to learn what is right and wrong, but those things must be taught and learned. Morals do not emerge from a vacuum. God has written His Law upon the human heart but sin has also staked a claim.

    In the quest for a privileged status in society, many advocates of taking the Ten Commandments out of public places have disregarded a theological perspective altogether. Don’t confuse the issues by bringing in religion and morality. Don’t muddy the water by defining right and wrong, black and white. Thus, morality becomes relative to each person’s own personal concept and values clarification teach youth to pick what they think would ultimately benefit them. Small wonder that as people strive to push God out of the mainstream of society we are experiencing more and more strife, upheaval, and crime.

    Ordination and Clergy:
    It has been said that one cannot legislate morality; in part that is true. Laws have never forced all people to comply by their regulations anymore than posting a 55 mph sign on the highway guarantees that all people will obey the speed limit. Yet, put a highway patrol along the way and traffic will slow down. Speeders will be caught but not as many will speed.

    Government is obligated to pass moral and just laws. The fact that some will refuse to conduct themselves in accordance with them should not dictate to society to lower its standards of right and wrong. Morality must be legislated, though it cannot be coerced. Morality must be taught and expected, though it can never be assured.

    There was a time in America’s past when clergy were called upon by the government to lead the nation in repentance and prayer. Christian ministers and beliefs played a vital role in the founding of the nation. There used to be a time when saying, “Thus says the Lord…” was sufficient. This was modified to “This is what the Church holds as true…” In today’s world the common sentiment is often, “Well, it seems to me…” Where is the “Thus says the Lord…” anymore? Nowadays, when God’s name is mentioned by the leaders, it is done in such a way that God could mean almost anything to anyone.

    In a politically correct environment, it is unacceptable to offend anyone by calling a sin just that, by implying that there might be moral absolutes, or claiming that there is a specific God who has revealed Himself in history as written in Scripture. People fail to comprehend that sin is not defined by a majority vote. Humans were not responsible for composing the Bible; they should not undertake its rewriting.
    Reply
    These attitudes fly in the face of Biblical injunctions. God will not continue to bless a nation who so defiantly rejects any concept of a moral law or a covenant with Him. It doesn’t take much perusing through the Old Testament to perceive the effects of Israel’s rejection of the Lord God. Perhaps every great civilization has first fallen internally on the basis of moral degeneracy.

    Isaiah spoke a word of caution against those who desire to confuse right and wrong (Is. 5:20). The prophet also addressed the ability of a child to learn right and wrong when he predicted future events, “but before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid to waste.” (Is. 7:16)

    Not only does a child have the capacity to learn what is right and wrong, but those things must be taught and learned. Morals do not emerge from a vacuum. God has written His Law upon the human heart but sin has also staked a claim.

    In the quest for a privileged status in society, many advocates of taking the Ten Commandments out of public places have disregarded a theological perspective altogether. Don’t confuse the issues by bringing in religion and morality. Don’t muddy the water by defining right and wrong, black and white. Thus, morality becomes relative to each person’s own personal concept and values clarification teach youth to pick what they think would ultimately benefit them. Small wonder that as people strive to push God out of the mainstream of society we are experiencing more and more strife, upheaval, and crime.

    Ordination and Clergy:
    It has been said that one cannot legislate morality; in part that is true. Laws have never forced all people to comply by their regulations anymore than posting a 55 mph sign on the highway guarantees that all people will obey the speed limit. Yet, put a highway patrol along the way and traffic will slow down. Speeders will be caught but not as many will speed.

    Government is obligated to pass moral and just laws. The fact that some will refuse to conduct themselves in accordance with them should not dictate to society to lower its standards of right and wrong. Morality must be legislated, though it cannot be coerced. Morality must be taught and expected, though it can never be assured.

    There was a time in America’s past when clergy were called upon by the government to lead the nation in repentance and prayer. Christian ministers and beliefs played a vital role in the founding of the nation. There used to be a time when saying, “Thus says the Lord…” was sufficient. This was modified to “This is what the Church holds as true…” In today’s world the common sentiment is often, “Well, it seems to me…” Where is the “Thus says the Lord…” anymore? Nowadays, when God’s name is mentioned by the leaders, it is done in such a way that God could mean almost anything to anyone.

    In a politically correct environment, it is unacceptable to offend anyone by calling a sin just that, by implying that there might be moral absolutes, or claiming that there is a specific God who has revealed Himself in history as written in Scripture. People fail to comprehend that sin is not defined by a majority vote. Humans were not responsible for composing the Bible; they should not undertake its rewriting.
     
    EX4life
    EX4life
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    Posted: Nov. 12, 2011 - 5:53 AM ET #205

    Conclusion:

    Again, I know there is a ton of material here, so please don't feel rushed to have to read it all as fast as you can. The most important thing is to let all of this information sink down and allow it to open up the Truth inside you.

    As I have gone into great detail in response to the original question, I will list the major points (in a much shorter fashion!) on the same question:

    1. Old Testament Law: The Old Testament Law was not just one law, or a group of laws lumped into one package. One of the Old Testament laws was the Sacrificial Law. The Sacrificial Law required a blood sacrifice of an unblemished animal. Why? Because we as humans couldn't sacrifice ourselves because were not worthy enough to sacrifice anybody to cover our sin (because all have sinned). But when Jesus died on the cross, He fulfilled the Sacrificial Law, meaning we do not have to make blood sacrifices (and any other sacrifice) anymore. Jesus represented the final sacrifice.
    -The 10 Commandments are an example of Moral Law; it is not a Sacrificial Law, nor any other types of laws. And the Moral Law was strengthened from the OT to the NT, because after the crucifixion, it is not now only what we say and do (OT Law), but also what we think (NT Law).
    -While Jesus fulfilled the Sacrificial Law, He DID NOT fulfill the Moral Code; we STILL must live by it. The Moral Code doesn't save us, rather, it's how God expects us to live.

    2. Saved by Grace: Some people might say that since we are saved by grace, then we can do whatever we want and the Moral Code doesn't apply. Romans 6 explains why we can't throw out the Moral Code, because that would mean there is no more sin. Romans 6: 1-4, 12-13 says, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in the newness of life... Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, as your members as instruments of righteousness to God."

    Thank you again for the questions. Hopefully I was able to answer them for you 
    Reply
    Conclusion:

    Again, I know there is a ton of material here, so please don't feel rushed to have to read it all as fast as you can. The most important thing is to let all of this information sink down and allow it to open up the Truth inside you.

    As I have gone into great detail in response to the original question, I will list the major points (in a much shorter fashion!) on the same question:

    1. Old Testament Law: The Old Testament Law was not just one law, or a group of laws lumped into one package. One of the Old Testament laws was the Sacrificial Law. The Sacrificial Law required a blood sacrifice of an unblemished animal. Why? Because we as humans couldn't sacrifice ourselves because were not worthy enough to sacrifice anybody to cover our sin (because all have sinned). But when Jesus died on the cross, He fulfilled the Sacrificial Law, meaning we do not have to make blood sacrifices (and any other sacrifice) anymore. Jesus represented the final sacrifice.
    -The 10 Commandments are an example of Moral Law; it is not a Sacrificial Law, nor any other types of laws. And the Moral Law was strengthened from the OT to the NT, because after the crucifixion, it is not now only what we say and do (OT Law), but also what we think (NT Law).
    -While Jesus fulfilled the Sacrificial Law, He DID NOT fulfill the Moral Code; we STILL must live by it. The Moral Code doesn't save us, rather, it's how God expects us to live.

    2. Saved by Grace: Some people might say that since we are saved by grace, then we can do whatever we want and the Moral Code doesn't apply. Romans 6 explains why we can't throw out the Moral Code, because that would mean there is no more sin. Romans 6: 1-4, 12-13 says, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in the newness of life... Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, as your members as instruments of righteousness to God."

    Thank you again for the questions. Hopefully I was able to answer them for you 
     
    CRRECORDS
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    Posted: Nov. 13, 2011 - 11:21 PM ET #206

    Quote Originally Posted by EX4life:

    Why won't God heal amputees?
    Some use this question in an attempt to "disprove" the existence of God. If God is all-powerful and if Jesus promised to do anything we ask (or so the reasoning goes), then why won't God ever heal amputees when we pray for them? Why does God heal victims of cancer and diabetes, for example, yet He never causes an amputated limb to be regenerated? The fact that an amputee stays an amputee is "proof" to some that God does not exist, that prayer is useless, that so-called healings are coincidence, and that religion is a myth.

    The above argument is usually presented in a thoughtful, well-reasoned way, with a liberal sprinkling of Scripture to make it seem all the more legitimate. However, it is an argument based on a wrong view of God and a misrepresentation of Scripture. The line of reasoning employed in the "why won't God heal amputees" argument makes at least 7 false assumptions:

    1) God has never healed an amputee: Who is to say that in the history of the world, God has never caused a limb to regenerate? To say, "I have no empirical evidence that limbs can regenerate; therefore, no amputee has ever been healed in the history of the world" is akin to saying "I have no empirical evidence that rabbits live in my yard; therefore, no rabbit has ever lived on this ground in the history of the world." It's a conclusion that simply cannot be drawn. Besides, we have the historical record of Jesus healing lepers, some of whom we may assume had lost digits or facial features. In each case, the lepers were restored whole (Mark 1: 40-42, Luke 17: 12-14). Also, there is the case of the man with the shriveled hand (Matthew 12: 9-13), and the restoration of Malchus's severed ear (Luke 22: 50-51), not to mention the fact that Jesus raised the dead (Matthew 11:5, John 11), which would undeniably be even more difficult than healing an amputee.
    What a squalid remark and analogy to amputees and cancer patients...to offer prayer as hope to rebuild a limb or save a child from cancer....it is this reasoning why some parents will not take their children for cancer treatment.....and to compare it to never seeing rabbits in your yard puts you on a level of a babbling idiot! you have no scientific proof jesus healed leapers or raised the dead.....quit wasting your time and the worlds time with worthless hope!
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by EX4life:

    Why won't God heal amputees?
    Some use this question in an attempt to "disprove" the existence of God. If God is all-powerful and if Jesus promised to do anything we ask (or so the reasoning goes), then why won't God ever heal amputees when we pray for them? Why does God heal victims of cancer and diabetes, for example, yet He never causes an amputated limb to be regenerated? The fact that an amputee stays an amputee is "proof" to some that God does not exist, that prayer is useless, that so-called healings are coincidence, and that religion is a myth.

    The above argument is usually presented in a thoughtful, well-reasoned way, with a liberal sprinkling of Scripture to make it seem all the more legitimate. However, it is an argument based on a wrong view of God and a misrepresentation of Scripture. The line of reasoning employed in the "why won't God heal amputees" argument makes at least 7 false assumptions:

    1) God has never healed an amputee: Who is to say that in the history of the world, God has never caused a limb to regenerate? To say, "I have no empirical evidence that limbs can regenerate; therefore, no amputee has ever been healed in the history of the world" is akin to saying "I have no empirical evidence that rabbits live in my yard; therefore, no rabbit has ever lived on this ground in the history of the world." It's a conclusion that simply cannot be drawn. Besides, we have the historical record of Jesus healing lepers, some of whom we may assume had lost digits or facial features. In each case, the lepers were restored whole (Mark 1: 40-42, Luke 17: 12-14). Also, there is the case of the man with the shriveled hand (Matthew 12: 9-13), and the restoration of Malchus's severed ear (Luke 22: 50-51), not to mention the fact that Jesus raised the dead (Matthew 11:5, John 11), which would undeniably be even more difficult than healing an amputee.
    What a squalid remark and analogy to amputees and cancer patients...to offer prayer as hope to rebuild a limb or save a child from cancer....it is this reasoning why some parents will not take their children for cancer treatment.....and to compare it to never seeing rabbits in your yard puts you on a level of a babbling idiot! you have no scientific proof jesus healed leapers or raised the dead.....quit wasting your time and the worlds time with worthless hope!
     
    matt4000
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    Posted: Nov. 22, 2011 - 11:02 PM ET #207

    Ex4life,
    Your presence is needed in the General Discussions thread titled
    "If Christ died on the cross for all of humanity"

    I am very busy with work and do not have the time to answer their questions and comments.
    Can you help? 
    Reply
    Ex4life,
    Your presence is needed in the General Discussions thread titled
    "If Christ died on the cross for all of humanity"

    I am very busy with work and do not have the time to answer their questions and comments.
    Can you help? 
     
    EX4life
    EX4life
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    Posts: 13235
    Posted: Nov. 23, 2011 - 10:00 PM ET #208

    CRRECORDS, I appreciate you expressing your feelings on what you wrote; it actually sort of sets the stage (foundation) of what I wanted to say next... but, first, I will comment on your specific post, and then tie it together with my original thought at the end.

    "You have no scientific proof Jesus healed leapers or raised the dead"

    Before I get specifically into my answer to this statement, I am going to establish credibility and truth to the Bible and what it says; I have already done this in previous posts, but I will also say some different things as well.

    The Bible is Unique:
    1. The Bible is not one book, but a compilation of 66 books that were written at different times.
    2. It was written over a 1500 year period of time.
    3. It was written by over 40 different authors: fishermen, generals, herdsmen, kings, doctors, tax collectors, and many others.
    4. It was written on three continents.
    5. It was written in three different languages.
    6. The writers of the Bible wrote about hundreds of different subjects.

    The New Testament Manuscripts:
    The New Testament was not translated from only one manuscript. There are over 24,000 original manuscript copies of the NT. Most of them were written within 100 years of Christ's death, and they all agree with each other. There is more manuscript evidence for the NT than any other 10 pieces of ancient literature combined.

    The Old Testament Manuscripts:
    When the Old Testament Scrolls were getting old, illegible, and worn out the person would make new ones. The reason that we don't have more OT Manuscripts is that after the person copied them from the old copy to the new copy, the old manuscript was destroyed. To show you how meticulous they were when translating them, consider this:
    1. They could only be copied onto the skins of kosher animals.
    2. The copyist had to be in full Jewish dress while he was translating the manuscript.
    3. If he was writing God's name and someone entered the room, the copyist couldn't even acknowledge him until he had finished writing the name of God.
    4. Between each letter there had to be a space the exact width of a hair (no more, no less); if not the copyist had to throw away what he had done and start all over from the beginning.
    5. Once the copying was completed, every letter was counted to be sure the copy matched the original.

    The Dead-Sea Scrolls:
    The Dead-Sea Scrolls are some OT Manuscripts that were written between 70-150 BC. They remained untouched until 1947, when they were discovered; they translate almost word for word as today's version of the Bible.
    Reply
    CRRECORDS, I appreciate you expressing your feelings on what you wrote; it actually sort of sets the stage (foundation) of what I wanted to say next... but, first, I will comment on your specific post, and then tie it together with my original thought at the end.

    "You have no scientific proof Jesus healed leapers or raised the dead"

    Before I get specifically into my answer to this statement, I am going to establish credibility and truth to the Bible and what it says; I have already done this in previous posts, but I will also say some different things as well.

    The Bible is Unique:
    1. The Bible is not one book, but a compilation of 66 books that were written at different times.
    2. It was written over a 1500 year period of time.
    3. It was written by over 40 different authors: fishermen, generals, herdsmen, kings, doctors, tax collectors, and many others.
    4. It was written on three continents.
    5. It was written in three different languages.
    6. The writers of the Bible wrote about hundreds of different subjects.

    The New Testament Manuscripts:
    The New Testament was not translated from only one manuscript. There are over 24,000 original manuscript copies of the NT. Most of them were written within 100 years of Christ's death, and they all agree with each other. There is more manuscript evidence for the NT than any other 10 pieces of ancient literature combined.

    The Old Testament Manuscripts:
    When the Old Testament Scrolls were getting old, illegible, and worn out the person would make new ones. The reason that we don't have more OT Manuscripts is that after the person copied them from the old copy to the new copy, the old manuscript was destroyed. To show you how meticulous they were when translating them, consider this:
    1. They could only be copied onto the skins of kosher animals.
    2. The copyist had to be in full Jewish dress while he was translating the manuscript.
    3. If he was writing God's name and someone entered the room, the copyist couldn't even acknowledge him until he had finished writing the name of God.
    4. Between each letter there had to be a space the exact width of a hair (no more, no less); if not the copyist had to throw away what he had done and start all over from the beginning.
    5. Once the copying was completed, every letter was counted to be sure the copy matched the original.

    The Dead-Sea Scrolls:
    The Dead-Sea Scrolls are some OT Manuscripts that were written between 70-150 BC. They remained untouched until 1947, when they were discovered; they translate almost word for word as today's version of the Bible.
     
    EX4life
    EX4life
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    Posted: Nov. 23, 2011 - 10:00 PM ET #209

    Belief in the Bible:
    Most of the writers of the Bible were eye-witnesses of what they recorded. II Peter 1:16 says "For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were EYE-WITNESSES of his majesty." Keep in mind that there were many enemies against the Christian faith, and if the writers of the NT were not accurate, the enemies of the Christians surely would have pointed it out, and we would have some record of it.

    Prophecy in the Bible:
    Prophecy can be defined as a foretelling of a future event. Even though all of the prophecies in the Bible have not come true yet (e.g. the ones about the end of the world), never once have any of them been wrong. It should be noted that Jewish prophets not only made predictions about the distant future, but also things which were to happen in their lifetime. If they were not 100% correct they would be put to death and their prophecies ignored (either they were from God or they were dead).

    The Bible is Historically Correct:
    The Bible had never contradicted any historical fact that's ever been discovered. This should add to its credibility. The Bible does not claim to be a book of science, yet not one scientific piece of data contradicts it. The Bible does not claim to be a history book, yet not one historical piece of evidence had ever contradicted it. The Bible does not claim to be a physics book, yet not one piece of physical data contradicts it. In the thousands of years of man's discoveries, not one thing has ever been found which contradicts the Bible. Sometimes the Bible even goes beyond man's knowledge: a long time ago man used to think the world was flat, but the Bible has always said it was round. Isaiah 40:22 says "He that sitteth upon the circle of the earth..."

    Archaeology and the Bible:
    -Archaeologists regularly use the Bible as a guide or road-map to find their dig sites.
    -Matthew Maury was in the U.S. Navy between 1841 and 1861. He was reading the book of Psalms in the Bible, and noticed the words "paths in the sea." He pondered this and decided to review the journals and diaries of the captains various sea-going ships. He discovered that some journeys took weeks to complete and other journeys of the same distance only days. This eventually led to sea and wind currents being discovered. There actually are "paths" in the sea.
    -Critics have often stated many times that Moses and the ancient Israelites could not have written such a structured book as Deuteronomy, but archaeologists have now discovered the Ebla Tablets. These clay tablets show structured writing (many of their laws and codes are similar to those found in the book of Deuteronomy), and they pre-date the book of Deuteronomy.
    -Critics have also mocked the Christian scholars, claiming that the OT is not factual because (among other things) it speaks about the Hittite people and there is no Non-biblical evidence about them. Recently, however, discoveries have been made supporting the existence of the Hittite people. In fact, you can now go to Harvard and study the Hittite language.
    -Archaeologists have discovered the home of Judas Iscariot - the person who delivered Jesus over to the Romans to be crucified.
    -Archaeologists have also unearthed Sepphoris - the city where the mother of Jesus was born.
    -Archaeologists have found the burial grave of Caiaphas. Caiaphas was the Jewish High Priest who interrogated Jesus shortly before his Crucifixion.

    We can see then that archaeology confirms the Bible's truth (there are plenty of other examples, but I will leave it at these examples).

    If a person looked at the evidence about the Bible in an un-biased manner, he or she would have to conclude that it was true.
    Reply
    Belief in the Bible:
    Most of the writers of the Bible were eye-witnesses of what they recorded. II Peter 1:16 says "For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were EYE-WITNESSES of his majesty." Keep in mind that there were many enemies against the Christian faith, and if the writers of the NT were not accurate, the enemies of the Christians surely would have pointed it out, and we would have some record of it.

    Prophecy in the Bible:
    Prophecy can be defined as a foretelling of a future event. Even though all of the prophecies in the Bible have not come true yet (e.g. the ones about the end of the world), never once have any of them been wrong. It should be noted that Jewish prophets not only made predictions about the distant future, but also things which were to happen in their lifetime. If they were not 100% correct they would be put to death and their prophecies ignored (either they were from God or they were dead).

    The Bible is Historically Correct:
    The Bible had never contradicted any historical fact that's ever been discovered. This should add to its credibility. The Bible does not claim to be a book of science, yet not one scientific piece of data contradicts it. The Bible does not claim to be a history book, yet not one historical piece of evidence had ever contradicted it. The Bible does not claim to be a physics book, yet not one piece of physical data contradicts it. In the thousands of years of man's discoveries, not one thing has ever been found which contradicts the Bible. Sometimes the Bible even goes beyond man's knowledge: a long time ago man used to think the world was flat, but the Bible has always said it was round. Isaiah 40:22 says "He that sitteth upon the circle of the earth..."

    Archaeology and the Bible:
    -Archaeologists regularly use the Bible as a guide or road-map to find their dig sites.
    -Matthew Maury was in the U.S. Navy between 1841 and 1861. He was reading the book of Psalms in the Bible, and noticed the words "paths in the sea." He pondered this and decided to review the journals and diaries of the captains various sea-going ships. He discovered that some journeys took weeks to complete and other journeys of the same distance only days. This eventually led to sea and wind currents being discovered. There actually are "paths" in the sea.
    -Critics have often stated many times that Moses and the ancient Israelites could not have written such a structured book as Deuteronomy, but archaeologists have now discovered the Ebla Tablets. These clay tablets show structured writing (many of their laws and codes are similar to those found in the book of Deuteronomy), and they pre-date the book of Deuteronomy.
    -Critics have also mocked the Christian scholars, claiming that the OT is not factual because (among other things) it speaks about the Hittite people and there is no Non-biblical evidence about them. Recently, however, discoveries have been made supporting the existence of the Hittite people. In fact, you can now go to Harvard and study the Hittite language.
    -Archaeologists have discovered the home of Judas Iscariot - the person who delivered Jesus over to the Romans to be crucified.
    -Archaeologists have also unearthed Sepphoris - the city where the mother of Jesus was born.
    -Archaeologists have found the burial grave of Caiaphas. Caiaphas was the Jewish High Priest who interrogated Jesus shortly before his Crucifixion.

    We can see then that archaeology confirms the Bible's truth (there are plenty of other examples, but I will leave it at these examples).

    If a person looked at the evidence about the Bible in an un-biased manner, he or she would have to conclude that it was true.
     
    EX4life
    EX4life
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    Posted: Nov. 23, 2011 - 10:01 PM ET #210

    Now that we have established credibility for the Bible, let us take a look at the evidence that Jesus lived, among other details.

    Jesus was a Liar, a Lunatic, or Lord and God:
    C.S. Lewis, author, and professor at Cambridge University (and at one time an atheist) wrote, "I am trying here to prevent the one foolish thing many people often say about Jesus, 'I can accept Jesus as a good moral teacher, but not as God.'" That is one thing we cannot say. Jesus claimed to be God. If this wasn't true, saying it (along with the other statements He made) would mean He shouldn't be considered a good moral teacher. There are only 3 choices we have for Jesus: 1) He was wrong and he knew it (a liar); 2) He was wrong, but thought he was God (a lunatic); or, 3) He actually was Lord and God. So the choices include liar, lunatic, or Lord; if He was a liar or lunatic He should not be considered a good moral teacher. There is no disputing the fact that there was a man named Jesus who lived.

    Jesus Lived:
    F.F. Bruce, Professor at the University of Manchester writes "It is not historians who propagate a Christ-myth theory, for the historicity of Jesus Christ is as automatic for any unbiased historian as the historicity of Julius Caesar." Some of the non-Biblical sources for the historicity of Jesus Christ include Roman historian, Cornelious Tacitus (112 AD); Jewish historian, Flavius Josephus (103 AD); Roman historian, Suetonius (120 AD); jurist/theologian, Tertullian (197 AD). The list could go on and on.

    The Archo Volume:
    The Archo Volume is a 245 page book that contains letters between Pilate and Caesar; Valleus's notes to Pilate about the arrest trial and crucifixion of Jesus; Gamaliel's interviews with Joseph and Mary, and others about Jesus; Jonathan's interviews with some Bethlehem shepherds; and more. All of these are non-biblical documents which testify about the existence of Jesus.

    Prophecy About Jesus:
    Jesus fulfilled over 300 prophecies written at least 250 years before his birth. The chance of any one person fulfilling only 8 of these prophecies is 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000 (1 in 10 to the 17th power). Even a skeptic should realize that's so improbable it must be supernatural. Now that is a very small number, but let's see just how small it is so we can put this in perspective: Suppose we take 10 to the 17th silver dollars and lay them on the face of Texas; they will cover the entire state of Texas two feet thick. Now let's put an X on one of the silver dollars, mix them all up, and blindfold somebody and have them pick one of those silver dollars. The chance that he will get the one with the X is 1 in 10 to the 17th power.
    Reply
    Now that we have established credibility for the Bible, let us take a look at the evidence that Jesus lived, among other details.

    Jesus was a Liar, a Lunatic, or Lord and God:
    C.S. Lewis, author, and professor at Cambridge University (and at one time an atheist) wrote, "I am trying here to prevent the one foolish thing many people often say about Jesus, 'I can accept Jesus as a good moral teacher, but not as God.'" That is one thing we cannot say. Jesus claimed to be God. If this wasn't true, saying it (along with the other statements He made) would mean He shouldn't be considered a good moral teacher. There are only 3 choices we have for Jesus: 1) He was wrong and he knew it (a liar); 2) He was wrong, but thought he was God (a lunatic); or, 3) He actually was Lord and God. So the choices include liar, lunatic, or Lord; if He was a liar or lunatic He should not be considered a good moral teacher. There is no disputing the fact that there was a man named Jesus who lived.

    Jesus Lived:
    F.F. Bruce, Professor at the University of Manchester writes "It is not historians who propagate a Christ-myth theory, for the historicity of Jesus Christ is as automatic for any unbiased historian as the historicity of Julius Caesar." Some of the non-Biblical sources for the historicity of Jesus Christ include Roman historian, Cornelious Tacitus (112 AD); Jewish historian, Flavius Josephus (103 AD); Roman historian, Suetonius (120 AD); jurist/theologian, Tertullian (197 AD). The list could go on and on.

    The Archo Volume:
    The Archo Volume is a 245 page book that contains letters between Pilate and Caesar; Valleus's notes to Pilate about the arrest trial and crucifixion of Jesus; Gamaliel's interviews with Joseph and Mary, and others about Jesus; Jonathan's interviews with some Bethlehem shepherds; and more. All of these are non-biblical documents which testify about the existence of Jesus.

    Prophecy About Jesus:
    Jesus fulfilled over 300 prophecies written at least 250 years before his birth. The chance of any one person fulfilling only 8 of these prophecies is 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000 (1 in 10 to the 17th power). Even a skeptic should realize that's so improbable it must be supernatural. Now that is a very small number, but let's see just how small it is so we can put this in perspective: Suppose we take 10 to the 17th silver dollars and lay them on the face of Texas; they will cover the entire state of Texas two feet thick. Now let's put an X on one of the silver dollars, mix them all up, and blindfold somebody and have them pick one of those silver dollars. The chance that he will get the one with the X is 1 in 10 to the 17th power.
     
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    Posted: Nov. 23, 2011 - 10:01 PM ET #211

    The Resurrection:
    The resurrection is perhaps the most important event which proves Christ's divinity (and the Bible's credibility). Jesus was born, lived 33 years, and died. Three executioners signed his death certificate. His body was wrapped in a burial cloth mixed with about one hundred pounds of spices. The Romans had heard the rumor about the Messiah coming back to life, and knew what problems it would cause if it came true. They took every precaution against it happening.

    The tomb was actually a cave. A large stone was placed in front of its entrance. The tomb was sealed with a seal (probably a cord was stretched across it and sealed with a wax stamp at each end). Ten to thirty armed guards guarded it, knowing they could be put to death if anything went wrong. However, three days later the tomb was empty. It should be noted that the stone placed in front of Jesus' tomb was so large that it required several men to carry it. Not only was the wax seal broken and the stone pushed aside, but it was moved up the road completely away from the entrance of the tomb. In addition to this, the tomb wasn't empty but still contained the grave clothes that Jesus was buried in (these were still wrapped up, as if the person inside had simply disappeared). 

    The NT contains six independent testimonies to the fact of the resurrection. These six men (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, and Paul) wrote 24 of the 27 books of the NT. Included in their testimonies are various eyewitness accounts as well as reports of other interviewed witnesses of the risen Jesus, including one of over 500 people at one time (1 Cor. 15:6).

    Were these witnesses credible? Critical minds who have considered their testimony point out that these witnesses were both competent and honest. For example, they had no impure motives for their testimony, such as fear, money, or ambition. They had the opportunity to know the truth, were mentally capable, were not gullible, and the documents of their testimony are reliable. There were more than an adequate number of witnesses to verify truth. And there is no contrary evidence.

    Simon Greenleaf, Professor of law at Harvard from 1833 to 1848 has been called the greatest authority on legal evidences in the history of the world. When Greenleaf applied legal evidences to the resurrection event, he concluded that it was an historical reality, and that anyone who examined the evidence for it honestly would be convinced this was the case.

    In the 1930s a British journalist who was trained in the law, named Frank Morrison, set out to do the world a favor by once and for all exposing the superstition of Christ's resurrection. However, by using the test of evidence permitted in a court of law, he became convicted against his will of the truth of the resurrection, and detailed his findings in a book that is still in print, called Who Moved the Stone.

    Perhaps the most powerful evidence is the sheer conviction of the disciples. For 40 years after the resurrection, these men traveled throughout the land telling what they knew to be true. All of them were persecuted and all but one eventually put to death for their faith as testimony to the resurrected Jesus. People simply will not martyr themselves for what they believe to be a lie. People will only give their life for what they are absolutely convinced is true.

    Many of the religious and political leaders of the day had every reason to quell the Christian movement by refuting the resurrection testimony. They were unable to disprove it. John R. W. Stott insists that the silence of Christ's enemies "is as eloquent a proof of the resurrection as the apostles' witness." 

    The early Christian leaders were not a superstitious people, unable to determine truth from reality. They lived in a civilized world of sophisticated Greek and Roman culture. These men were fishermen, carpenters, a physician (Luke), etc., and certainly understood the laws of nature. They attested to the miracles of Jesus in that framework.
    Reply
    The Resurrection:
    The resurrection is perhaps the most important event which proves Christ's divinity (and the Bible's credibility). Jesus was born, lived 33 years, and died. Three executioners signed his death certificate. His body was wrapped in a burial cloth mixed with about one hundred pounds of spices. The Romans had heard the rumor about the Messiah coming back to life, and knew what problems it would cause if it came true. They took every precaution against it happening.

    The tomb was actually a cave. A large stone was placed in front of its entrance. The tomb was sealed with a seal (probably a cord was stretched across it and sealed with a wax stamp at each end). Ten to thirty armed guards guarded it, knowing they could be put to death if anything went wrong. However, three days later the tomb was empty. It should be noted that the stone placed in front of Jesus' tomb was so large that it required several men to carry it. Not only was the wax seal broken and the stone pushed aside, but it was moved up the road completely away from the entrance of the tomb. In addition to this, the tomb wasn't empty but still contained the grave clothes that Jesus was buried in (these were still wrapped up, as if the person inside had simply disappeared). 

    The NT contains six independent testimonies to the fact of the resurrection. These six men (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, and Paul) wrote 24 of the 27 books of the NT. Included in their testimonies are various eyewitness accounts as well as reports of other interviewed witnesses of the risen Jesus, including one of over 500 people at one time (1 Cor. 15:6).

    Were these witnesses credible? Critical minds who have considered their testimony point out that these witnesses were both competent and honest. For example, they had no impure motives for their testimony, such as fear, money, or ambition. They had the opportunity to know the truth, were mentally capable, were not gullible, and the documents of their testimony are reliable. There were more than an adequate number of witnesses to verify truth. And there is no contrary evidence.

    Simon Greenleaf, Professor of law at Harvard from 1833 to 1848 has been called the greatest authority on legal evidences in the history of the world. When Greenleaf applied legal evidences to the resurrection event, he concluded that it was an historical reality, and that anyone who examined the evidence for it honestly would be convinced this was the case.

    In the 1930s a British journalist who was trained in the law, named Frank Morrison, set out to do the world a favor by once and for all exposing the superstition of Christ's resurrection. However, by using the test of evidence permitted in a court of law, he became convicted against his will of the truth of the resurrection, and detailed his findings in a book that is still in print, called Who Moved the Stone.

    Perhaps the most powerful evidence is the sheer conviction of the disciples. For 40 years after the resurrection, these men traveled throughout the land telling what they knew to be true. All of them were persecuted and all but one eventually put to death for their faith as testimony to the resurrected Jesus. People simply will not martyr themselves for what they believe to be a lie. People will only give their life for what they are absolutely convinced is true.

    Many of the religious and political leaders of the day had every reason to quell the Christian movement by refuting the resurrection testimony. They were unable to disprove it. John R. W. Stott insists that the silence of Christ's enemies "is as eloquent a proof of the resurrection as the apostles' witness." 

    The early Christian leaders were not a superstitious people, unable to determine truth from reality. They lived in a civilized world of sophisticated Greek and Roman culture. These men were fishermen, carpenters, a physician (Luke), etc., and certainly understood the laws of nature. They attested to the miracles of Jesus in that framework.
     
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    Posted: Nov. 23, 2011 - 10:02 PM ET #212

    Let's now get specifically to the details surrounding Jesus' miracles.

    1) What Do Miracles Prove/Show?
    Miracles accomplished the following purposes:

    A. The Bible claims that miracles prove God exists and is the True God.
    a. The plagues on Egypt.
    -Exodus 9: 13-16; 10: 1,2 - The plagues on Egypt occurred so people throughout the world and even in future generations (which includes us today) would know Jehovah is the true God. And sure enough, people throughout history have heard of the plagues God brought on Egypt through Moses.
    -Exodus 12:12 - The plagues were also a judgment on the gods of Egypt. The main point is that Egyptian gods could not do such great works as these, nor could they resist the power of God. So God proved He is the true God in contrast to heathen idols.

    b. Crossing the Red Sea.
    -Exodus 14:18, 31 - The ultimate goal of the parting of the Sea was that God might gain honor, so the people would fear the Lord and believe in Him.
    -Joshua 24:5-7, 14 - As a result of these miracles, God would be honored and people would forsake other gods and serve only the true God.

    c. Manna in the Wilderness.
    -Exodus 16:12-15, 31-35 - God provided Manna as food for Israel for forty years as they traveled to Canaan. It fell like dew on the ground, so each morning they had simply to gather it for food. This confirmed to the people the existence of God.

    d. Giving the law at Mt. Sinai.
    -Deuteronomy 4:32-40 - Moses said that God led Israel out of Egypt by signs and wonders and then spoke to them out of great fire "that you might know that the Lord Himself is God; there is none other besides Him."

    e. Crossing the Jordan on dry ground.
    -Joshua 4:22-24 - God caused the Jordan to stop flowing, so Israel could pass on dry ground. This gave people reason to fear the Lord as God forever.

    f. Elijah on Mt. Carmel.
    -1 Kings 18:36-39 - God sent fire from heaven (which Baal could not do) so people would know to believe in the true God and that Elijah was acting by God's authority.

    g. Daniel's three friends in the fiery furnace.
    -Daniel 3 - Nebuchadnezzar King of Babylon commanded men to bow to his image or be thrown into a fiery furnace. Daniel's three friends refused and were thrown in but were not harmed. Nebuchadnezzar decreed that no other god could deliver like that.

    Old Testament and New Testament miracles confirm the existence of God. Such events are impossible by natural means. The fact that they occurred proves there must be a God. And the fact these miracles were done by the God who guided the Bible writers proves that He is the true God, since no other "gods" can duplicate these acts.

    B. The Bible claims that miracles prove Jesus is God's Son as He claimed.
    The miracles Jesus performed attest to His exalted spiritual office, His deity. They provide evidence that He was God made flesh, and dwelt with humans (John 1:1, 14). Consider these examples.

    a. Matthew 8:27 - When Jesus stilled the storm, the disciples cried out, "Who can this be, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?"

    b. John 2:23 - When he was in Jerusalem on the Passover "many believed in His name when they saw the signs which He did."

    c. John 6:14 - When Jesus fed thousands from five loaves of bread and two fishes, the people said, "This is truly the Prophet who is to come into the world."

    d. Mark 2:3-12 - Jesus claimed that His power to heal proved He also had power to forgive sins, which only God could do.

    e. John 3:2 - Nicodemus said people knew Jesus was a teacher come from God, since no one could do the works Jesus did unless God was with him.

    f. John 5:36 - Jesus declared his miracles to be evidence he had come from God - and was God.

    g. John 10:37, 38; 14:10, 11 - Jesus claimed people should believe His works, so they would know the Father is in Him and He in the Father.

    h. Acts 2:22-24 - God gave testimony to Jesus by doing wonders, signs, and miracles through Him. The point is that Jesus did works that were impossible by natural law. If He had been an imposter, God would not have allowed Him to do such works. The fact God allowed Him to do them would confirm the validity of His claims.
    Reply
    Let's now get specifically to the details surrounding Jesus' miracles.

    1) What Do Miracles Prove/Show?
    Miracles accomplished the following purposes:

    A. The Bible claims that miracles prove God exists and is the True God.
    a. The plagues on Egypt.
    -Exodus 9: 13-16; 10: 1,2 - The plagues on Egypt occurred so people throughout the world and even in future generations (which includes us today) would know Jehovah is the true God. And sure enough, people throughout history have heard of the plagues God brought on Egypt through Moses.
    -Exodus 12:12 - The plagues were also a judgment on the gods of Egypt. The main point is that Egyptian gods could not do such great works as these, nor could they resist the power of God. So God proved He is the true God in contrast to heathen idols.

    b. Crossing the Red Sea.
    -Exodus 14:18, 31 - The ultimate goal of the parting of the Sea was that God might gain honor, so the people would fear the Lord and believe in Him.
    -Joshua 24:5-7, 14 - As a result of these miracles, God would be honored and people would forsake other gods and serve only the true God.

    c. Manna in the Wilderness.
    -Exodus 16:12-15, 31-35 - God provided Manna as food for Israel for forty years as they traveled to Canaan. It fell like dew on the ground, so each morning they had simply to gather it for food. This confirmed to the people the existence of God.

    d. Giving the law at Mt. Sinai.
    -Deuteronomy 4:32-40 - Moses said that God led Israel out of Egypt by signs and wonders and then spoke to them out of great fire "that you might know that the Lord Himself is God; there is none other besides Him."

    e. Crossing the Jordan on dry ground.
    -Joshua 4:22-24 - God caused the Jordan to stop flowing, so Israel could pass on dry ground. This gave people reason to fear the Lord as God forever.

    f. Elijah on Mt. Carmel.
    -1 Kings 18:36-39 - God sent fire from heaven (which Baal could not do) so people would know to believe in the true God and that Elijah was acting by God's authority.

    g. Daniel's three friends in the fiery furnace.
    -Daniel 3 - Nebuchadnezzar King of Babylon commanded men to bow to his image or be thrown into a fiery furnace. Daniel's three friends refused and were thrown in but were not harmed. Nebuchadnezzar decreed that no other god could deliver like that.

    Old Testament and New Testament miracles confirm the existence of God. Such events are impossible by natural means. The fact that they occurred proves there must be a God. And the fact these miracles were done by the God who guided the Bible writers proves that He is the true God, since no other "gods" can duplicate these acts.

    B. The Bible claims that miracles prove Jesus is God's Son as He claimed.
    The miracles Jesus performed attest to His exalted spiritual office, His deity. They provide evidence that He was God made flesh, and dwelt with humans (John 1:1, 14). Consider these examples.

    a. Matthew 8:27 - When Jesus stilled the storm, the disciples cried out, "Who can this be, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?"

    b. John 2:23 - When he was in Jerusalem on the Passover "many believed in His name when they saw the signs which He did."

    c. John 6:14 - When Jesus fed thousands from five loaves of bread and two fishes, the people said, "This is truly the Prophet who is to come into the world."

    d. Mark 2:3-12 - Jesus claimed that His power to heal proved He also had power to forgive sins, which only God could do.

    e. John 3:2 - Nicodemus said people knew Jesus was a teacher come from God, since no one could do the works Jesus did unless God was with him.

    f. John 5:36 - Jesus declared his miracles to be evidence he had come from God - and was God.

    g. John 10:37, 38; 14:10, 11 - Jesus claimed people should believe His works, so they would know the Father is in Him and He in the Father.

    h. Acts 2:22-24 - God gave testimony to Jesus by doing wonders, signs, and miracles through Him. The point is that Jesus did works that were impossible by natural law. If He had been an imposter, God would not have allowed Him to do such works. The fact God allowed Him to do them would confirm the validity of His claims.
     
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    Posted: Nov. 23, 2011 - 10:02 PM ET #213

    C. The Bible claims that miracles prove Bible writers (& other Prophets) were inspired by God.
    Bible writers and prophets said that miracles done through them confirmed that their message was from God.

    a. Old Testament prophets.
    -Exodus 4:1-9 - Moses feared that the people would not believe God had sent him. So God gave him signs expressly to convince the people to believe.
    -Exodus 14:30, 31 - After the crossing of the Red Sea, the people believed the Lord and His servant Moses.
    -Joshua 3:7-17 - When Joshua led Israel across the Jordan on dry ground, God said this showed the people that He was with Joshua as He had been with Moses.

    b. New Testament prophets.
    -Mark 16:20 - Jesus sent apostles to preach, and as they did so, He worked with them, confirming the word by the signs He gave them.
    -Acts 14:3 - God spoke through Paul and Barnabas. He bore witness to the word of His grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands.
    -2 Corinthians 12:11, 12 - Signs, wonders, and miracles would confirm one was an apostle.
    -Hebrews 2:3, 4 - God bore witness to the message of salvation by signs, wonders, etc.

    People needed a way to distinguish true prophets from false ones. If men could do works that could be performed only by the power of God, people would know God was working in those men and they would believe the message preached. Miracles were a deliberate demonstration by God to prove that He exists, that Jesus is His Son, and that the Bible writers and prophets were His spokesmen.

    D. Biblical miracles show expressions of God's character and love.
    A valuable way of understanding the meaning of miracles is to examine the various terms for miracles used in the Bible. Both the OT and the NT use the word sign (Is. 7:11, 14; John 2:11) to denote a miracle that points to a deeper revelation. Wonder (Joel 2:30; Mark 13:22) emphasizes the effect of the miracle, causing awe and even terror. A work (Matt. 11:2) points to the presence of God in history, acting for mankind. The NT uses the word power (Mark 6:7) to emphasize God's acting in strength. These terms often overlap in meaning (Acts 2:43). These terms are also more specific than the more general term "miracle." As with the OT, the NT miracles are essentially expressions of God's salvation and glory.

    Why did Jesus perform miracles? Jesus answered this question Himself: "The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor" (Matt. 11:5). With these words, Jesus declared that His miracles were the fulfillment of the promises of the Messiah's kingdom as foretold by Isaiah (24:18-19; 35:5-6; 61:1). Jesus' miracles were signs of the presence of the kingdom of God (Matt. 12:39).

    This theme of the miracles pointing to the kingdom of God was developed and deepened especially in the Gospel of John. John presented the miracles of Jesus as "signs" on seven occasions. He thought of these miracles as pointing to deep spiritual truth, demanding obedient faith (John 2:11, 23-25).

    Jesus also understood His miracles as evidences of the presence of the kingdom in His ministry (Matt 11:2-5; 12:28). Every miracle story was a sign that God's salvation was present. But not only did the kingdom come; it came in great power, because the dead were raised (Is. 26:19; Luke 7:11-15) and Satan was bound (Mark 3:27). Jesus' miracles were also performed upon the most unlikely people. Jesus consciously brought the salvation of God to those who were rejected. He healed the lame (Matt. 9:1-8), the dumb (Matt 9:32-33), and lepers (Luke 17:11-19). Jesus brought the kingdom to all, regardless of their condition. But Jesus' miracles were not theatrical sensations. He demanded faith of others (Matt 9:2). The hemorrhaging woman was healed because of her faith (Matt 9:18-26). Finally, we gain a deeper understanding of Jesus in His miracles.  He is the Lord over nature (Mark 4:35-41) and death (Luke 8:41-46; John 11:1-44). He is the Suffering Servant who bears the infirmities of others (Matt 8:16-17). He is the Messiah who was to come (Matt 11:2-6). He fights the battle against evil (Mark 3:23-30; Luke 11:18-23).
    Reply
    C. The Bible claims that miracles prove Bible writers (& other Prophets) were inspired by God.
    Bible writers and prophets said that miracles done through them confirmed that their message was from God.

    a. Old Testament prophets.
    -Exodus 4:1-9 - Moses feared that the people would not believe God had sent him. So God gave him signs expressly to convince the people to believe.
    -Exodus 14:30, 31 - After the crossing of the Red Sea, the people believed the Lord and His servant Moses.
    -Joshua 3:7-17 - When Joshua led Israel across the Jordan on dry ground, God said this showed the people that He was with Joshua as He had been with Moses.

    b. New Testament prophets.
    -Mark 16:20 - Jesus sent apostles to preach, and as they did so, He worked with them, confirming the word by the signs He gave them.
    -Acts 14:3 - God spoke through Paul and Barnabas. He bore witness to the word of His grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands.
    -2 Corinthians 12:11, 12 - Signs, wonders, and miracles would confirm one was an apostle.
    -Hebrews 2:3, 4 - God bore witness to the message of salvation by signs, wonders, etc.

    People needed a way to distinguish true prophets from false ones. If men could do works that could be performed only by the power of God, people would know God was working in those men and they would believe the message preached. Miracles were a deliberate demonstration by God to prove that He exists, that Jesus is His Son, and that the Bible writers and prophets were His spokesmen.

    D. Biblical miracles show expressions of God's character and love.
    A valuable way of understanding the meaning of miracles is to examine the various terms for miracles used in the Bible. Both the OT and the NT use the word sign (Is. 7:11, 14; John 2:11) to denote a miracle that points to a deeper revelation. Wonder (Joel 2:30; Mark 13:22) emphasizes the effect of the miracle, causing awe and even terror. A work (Matt. 11:2) points to the presence of God in history, acting for mankind. The NT uses the word power (Mark 6:7) to emphasize God's acting in strength. These terms often overlap in meaning (Acts 2:43). These terms are also more specific than the more general term "miracle." As with the OT, the NT miracles are essentially expressions of God's salvation and glory.

    Why did Jesus perform miracles? Jesus answered this question Himself: "The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor" (Matt. 11:5). With these words, Jesus declared that His miracles were the fulfillment of the promises of the Messiah's kingdom as foretold by Isaiah (24:18-19; 35:5-6; 61:1). Jesus' miracles were signs of the presence of the kingdom of God (Matt. 12:39).

    This theme of the miracles pointing to the kingdom of God was developed and deepened especially in the Gospel of John. John presented the miracles of Jesus as "signs" on seven occasions. He thought of these miracles as pointing to deep spiritual truth, demanding obedient faith (John 2:11, 23-25).

    Jesus also understood His miracles as evidences of the presence of the kingdom in His ministry (Matt 11:2-5; 12:28). Every miracle story was a sign that God's salvation was present. But not only did the kingdom come; it came in great power, because the dead were raised (Is. 26:19; Luke 7:11-15) and Satan was bound (Mark 3:27). Jesus' miracles were also performed upon the most unlikely people. Jesus consciously brought the salvation of God to those who were rejected. He healed the lame (Matt. 9:1-8), the dumb (Matt 9:32-33), and lepers (Luke 17:11-19). Jesus brought the kingdom to all, regardless of their condition. But Jesus' miracles were not theatrical sensations. He demanded faith of others (Matt 9:2). The hemorrhaging woman was healed because of her faith (Matt 9:18-26). Finally, we gain a deeper understanding of Jesus in His miracles.  He is the Lord over nature (Mark 4:35-41) and death (Luke 8:41-46; John 11:1-44). He is the Suffering Servant who bears the infirmities of others (Matt 8:16-17). He is the Messiah who was to come (Matt 11:2-6). He fights the battle against evil (Mark 3:23-30; Luke 11:18-23).
     
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    Posted: Nov. 23, 2011 - 10:02 PM ET #214

    2) Science vs Miracles:
    Jesus' teaching on the reign of God was related to Israel's hopes of fulfillment and to answering the problem of evil. Yet, if Jesus merely challenged people with strange stories and confronting sayings, he would be easily dismissed as just another religious "nut." Jesus not only spoke about the kingdom, he reinforced His message through what came to be described as wondrous deeds and miraculous events. To modern ears, influenced by scientific understandings of causality and the laws of nature, Jesus' miracle stories are met with skepticism. And yet, contemporary secular culture greets stories of the paranormal with an increased degree of interest... ironic isn't it.

    There are only two possible explanations for the miracle stories in the Gospels. Either Jesus' miracles happened or they did not. Many scholars have opted for the second alternative, casting doubt on the Bible's truth. They may accept the value of Jesus' moral teachings but consider the miracles to be stories with a lesson, or pious frauds.

    Many scholars have been suspicious of the biblical miracles because they could not be explained by natural means. The French philologist and historian Ernest Renan (1823-1892) said, "No miracle has ever taken place under conditions which science can accept."

    True, science cannot demonstrate that the miracles ascribed to Jesus really occurred. However, just because we cannot explain miracles scientifically does not mean they did not take place. To prove or disprove any natural phenomenon, science typically depends on verifiable, repeatable experimentation. Science depends upon observation and replication. Miracles, such as the Incarnation (Christ's virgin birth) and the Resurrection, are by their very nature unprecedented events. No one can replicate these events in a laboratory. Miracles are, by nature, unrepeatable - the result of God supernaturally suspending, or transcending, the created order and the laws of nature. Hence, science simply cannot be the judge and jury as to whether or not these events occurred. Since the Bible states that Jesus' miracles were accomplished by supernatural power, we should not expect to find any natural explanation. By definition, a miracle is something beyond the scope of science to explain. Author Ron Rhodes says, "The scientific method is useful for studying nature, but not super-nature." Miracles deviate from the known laws of nature by definition. Science and scholarship can neither confirm nor deny whether Jesus performed miracles.

    Laws of Logic vs Laws of Nature:
    The laws of logic are sometimes confused with the laws of nature. The laws of logic are prescriptive. They define the basic and inviolable parameters and unavoidable patterns of human thinking. On the other hand, the laws of nature are descriptive. They are a record of how the natural world normally operates. Scientific laws don;t control or explain events. They are only a generalized record of those events. The laws of logic constitute a perfect standard. The laws of nature describe actual reality. God can suspend the laws of nature at will because He designed them. He would not (and actually cannot) violate the laws of logic, because they are a part of His nature. C.S. Lewis said, "If a man has no conception of a regular order in nature, then of course he could not notice departures from that order. When the disciples saw Christ walking on the water, they were frightened: they would not have been frightened unless they had known the laws of nature, and know that this was an exception."

    Science, Nature, and Scripture:
    I believe that nature and Scripture, properly interpreted, do not conflict. God has communicated to humankind both by general revelation (nature; the observable universe) and special revelation (the Bible). Since both of these revelations come from God - and since God does not contradict Himself - we must conclude that these two revelations are in agreement with each other. While there may be conflicts between one's interpretation of the observable universe and one's interpretation of the Bible, there's no ultimate contradiction.

    We might say that science is a fallible human interpretation of the observable universe while theology is a fallible human interpretation of the Scriptures. Science historian Thomas Kuhn proved in his book The Structure of Scientific Revolutions - that is, science is in a constant state of change. New discoveries have consistently cause old scientific paradigms to be discarded in favor of newer paradigms.

    Here is the point: It is not nature and Scripture that contradict; rather, it is science (man's fallible interpretation of nature) and theology (man's fallible interpretation of Scripture) that sometimes fall into conflict. Hence one cannot simply dismiss certain parts of the Bible because "science and the Bible contradict."
    Reply
    2) Science vs Miracles:
    Jesus' teaching on the reign of God was related to Israel's hopes of fulfillment and to answering the problem of evil. Yet, if Jesus merely challenged people with strange stories and confronting sayings, he would be easily dismissed as just another religious "nut." Jesus not only spoke about the kingdom, he reinforced His message through what came to be described as wondrous deeds and miraculous events. To modern ears, influenced by scientific understandings of causality and the laws of nature, Jesus' miracle stories are met with skepticism. And yet, contemporary secular culture greets stories of the paranormal with an increased degree of interest... ironic isn't it.

    There are only two possible explanations for the miracle stories in the Gospels. Either Jesus' miracles happened or they did not. Many scholars have opted for the second alternative, casting doubt on the Bible's truth. They may accept the value of Jesus' moral teachings but consider the miracles to be stories with a lesson, or pious frauds.

    Many scholars have been suspicious of the biblical miracles because they could not be explained by natural means. The French philologist and historian Ernest Renan (1823-1892) said, "No miracle has ever taken place under conditions which science can accept."

    True, science cannot demonstrate that the miracles ascribed to Jesus really occurred. However, just because we cannot explain miracles scientifically does not mean they did not take place. To prove or disprove any natural phenomenon, science typically depends on verifiable, repeatable experimentation. Science depends upon observation and replication. Miracles, such as the Incarnation (Christ's virgin birth) and the Resurrection, are by their very nature unprecedented events. No one can replicate these events in a laboratory. Miracles are, by nature, unrepeatable - the result of God supernaturally suspending, or transcending, the created order and the laws of nature. Hence, science simply cannot be the judge and jury as to whether or not these events occurred. Since the Bible states that Jesus' miracles were accomplished by supernatural power, we should not expect to find any natural explanation. By definition, a miracle is something beyond the scope of science to explain. Author Ron Rhodes says, "The scientific method is useful for studying nature, but not super-nature." Miracles deviate from the known laws of nature by definition. Science and scholarship can neither confirm nor deny whether Jesus performed miracles.

    Laws of Logic vs Laws of Nature:
    The laws of logic are sometimes confused with the laws of nature. The laws of logic are prescriptive. They define the basic and inviolable parameters and unavoidable patterns of human thinking. On the other hand, the laws of nature are descriptive. They are a record of how the natural world normally operates. Scientific laws don;t control or explain events. They are only a generalized record of those events. The laws of logic constitute a perfect standard. The laws of nature describe actual reality. God can suspend the laws of nature at will because He designed them. He would not (and actually cannot) violate the laws of logic, because they are a part of His nature. C.S. Lewis said, "If a man has no conception of a regular order in nature, then of course he could not notice departures from that order. When the disciples saw Christ walking on the water, they were frightened: they would not have been frightened unless they had known the laws of nature, and know that this was an exception."

    Science, Nature, and Scripture:
    I believe that nature and Scripture, properly interpreted, do not conflict. God has communicated to humankind both by general revelation (nature; the observable universe) and special revelation (the Bible). Since both of these revelations come from God - and since God does not contradict Himself - we must conclude that these two revelations are in agreement with each other. While there may be conflicts between one's interpretation of the observable universe and one's interpretation of the Bible, there's no ultimate contradiction.

    We might say that science is a fallible human interpretation of the observable universe while theology is a fallible human interpretation of the Scriptures. Science historian Thomas Kuhn proved in his book The Structure of Scientific Revolutions - that is, science is in a constant state of change. New discoveries have consistently cause old scientific paradigms to be discarded in favor of newer paradigms.

    Here is the point: It is not nature and Scripture that contradict; rather, it is science (man's fallible interpretation of nature) and theology (man's fallible interpretation of Scripture) that sometimes fall into conflict. Hence one cannot simply dismiss certain parts of the Bible because "science and the Bible contradict."
     
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    Posted: Nov. 23, 2011 - 10:03 PM ET #215

    3) The Characteristics of True Miracles
    The power of miracles as evidence rests in the nature of the acts themselves. Considering the specific details of Bible miracles will help us see the convincing nature of the evidence. This evidence is further strengthened when we contrast Bible miracles to the so-called miracles fraudulently claimed by those who are not really from God.

    A) There was conclusive evidence that the miraculous even occurred.
    i) The occurrence of the event was unmistakably evident to observers.
    -Fake miracle workers often claim miracles in cases of invisible or undetectable diseases. Or the problem may be psychosomatic, cause by the person's mental or emotional state, such that an improvement in their mental or emotional state would remove the problem. Often there is no obvious evidence that the supposed event occurred at all. In some cases, in fact, the whole thing could have been staged or faked in harmony with natural law. Contrast this to the following examples of Bible miracles. We will see no sleight of hand or trickery. In miraculous healings, there was clear evidence that the people had organic disorders, and there was conclusive proof that the problem was removed.
    -Lazarus (John 11): It was clear to all witnesses that Lazarus had been dead four days yet came alive again.
    -Blind man (John 9): It was unquestionably proved that the man could not see from birth, but then he was so healed he could see.
    -Woman bowed together (Luke 13): All could see she was hunch-backed, but then she was straightened.
    -Lame man (Acts 3): Many people knew the man could not walk, but it was obvious that he was enabled to do so.
    -Son of the widow of Nain (Luke 7): The man had died and a great multitude gathered for his funeral procession. Yet Jesus raised him in the presence of the crowd.
    -Elymas (Acts 13): Elymas was a sorcerer who opposed Paul's effort to convert a proconsul. Paul struck him blind temporarily, resulting in the proconsul's conversion.

    ii) Local people were personally involved in the miracles.
    -Fake miracle workers often claim miracles that supposedly happened to someone somewhere whom no one knows locally, so no one can visit them to verify the event. In contrast, local people received the effect of the Bible miracles, and local people could observe for themselves and check the matter out. They could question the people involved, check out whether they had really been ill, observe if there was a complete healing or whether there were relapses, etc. Hence, they could determine for themselves whether there had been a real miracle.
    -Lazarus (John 11): Lazarus was healed in his hometown, where he was known to be dead and could then be observed alive.
    -Blind man (John 9): To determine the validity of the healing, people could contact witnesses. Jesus was not afraid to have people check out the validity of His miracles.
    -Son of the widow of Nain (Luke 7): This young man was raised from the dead in the presence of his own funeral party - the very people who knew him best, knew of his death, and could see for themselves that he had come back to life.
    -Lame man (Acts 3): This man was known by the people of the city to be lame. Multitudes of these people saw him before and after he was healed.
    Reply
    3) The Characteristics of True Miracles
    The power of miracles as evidence rests in the nature of the acts themselves. Considering the specific details of Bible miracles will help us see the convincing nature of the evidence. This evidence is further strengthened when we contrast Bible miracles to the so-called miracles fraudulently claimed by those who are not really from God.

    A) There was conclusive evidence that the miraculous even occurred.
    i) The occurrence of the event was unmistakably evident to observers.
    -Fake miracle workers often claim miracles in cases of invisible or undetectable diseases. Or the problem may be psychosomatic, cause by the person's mental or emotional state, such that an improvement in their mental or emotional state would remove the problem. Often there is no obvious evidence that the supposed event occurred at all. In some cases, in fact, the whole thing could have been staged or faked in harmony with natural law. Contrast this to the following examples of Bible miracles. We will see no sleight of hand or trickery. In miraculous healings, there was clear evidence that the people had organic disorders, and there was conclusive proof that the problem was removed.
    -Lazarus (John 11): It was clear to all witnesses that Lazarus had been dead four days yet came alive again.
    -Blind man (John 9): It was unquestionably proved that the man could not see from birth, but then he was so healed he could see.
    -Woman bowed together (Luke 13): All could see she was hunch-backed, but then she was straightened.
    -Lame man (Acts 3): Many people knew the man could not walk, but it was obvious that he was enabled to do so.
    -Son of the widow of Nain (Luke 7): The man had died and a great multitude gathered for his funeral procession. Yet Jesus raised him in the presence of the crowd.
    -Elymas (Acts 13): Elymas was a sorcerer who opposed Paul's effort to convert a proconsul. Paul struck him blind temporarily, resulting in the proconsul's conversion.

    ii) Local people were personally involved in the miracles.
    -Fake miracle workers often claim miracles that supposedly happened to someone somewhere whom no one knows locally, so no one can visit them to verify the event. In contrast, local people received the effect of the Bible miracles, and local people could observe for themselves and check the matter out. They could question the people involved, check out whether they had really been ill, observe if there was a complete healing or whether there were relapses, etc. Hence, they could determine for themselves whether there had been a real miracle.
    -Lazarus (John 11): Lazarus was healed in his hometown, where he was known to be dead and could then be observed alive.
    -Blind man (John 9): To determine the validity of the healing, people could contact witnesses. Jesus was not afraid to have people check out the validity of His miracles.
    -Son of the widow of Nain (Luke 7): This young man was raised from the dead in the presence of his own funeral party - the very people who knew him best, knew of his death, and could see for themselves that he had come back to life.
    -Lame man (Acts 3): This man was known by the people of the city to be lame. Multitudes of these people saw him before and after he was healed.
     
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    iii) Miracles were often done in the presence of unbelievers, false teachers, and even false miracle-workers.
    -Fake faith healers often refuse to do miracles if doubters or opponents are present, or they excuse their failure on the grounds that the observers lack faith. But when men of God had true power to do miracles, they were not afraid to do them in the presence of people who had questions or doubts, or even people who openly opposed their teaching. At times they would deliberately do miracles in the presence of those who did false miracles, so that people could see the difference. Observers could investigate for themselves the validity of the miracles.
    -Ten Plagues & Red Sea (Exodus 8; 14): Pharaoh's magicians tried to duplicate Moses' miracles, but eventually admitted Moses did miracles by the power of God. Pharaoh and him army witnessed the crossing of the Red Sea, and they drowned when the water collapsed.
    -Elijah on Mt. Carmel (1 Kings 18): The people of Israel doubted who the true God was. Yet in their presence Elijah challenged the prophets of Baal to a showdown to see who had real power of miracles.
    -Daniel's three friends (Daniel 3): Nebuchadnezzar King of Babylon compelled the people to worship an idol. He threw Daniel's three friends into a fiery furnace, then he and his advisors witnessed that they were not hurt in any way.
    -Malchus (Luke 22): When Jesus was being arrested, Peter cut off the ear of the high priest's servant. In the presence of the very men who were arresting Him, Jesus restored the man's ear!
    -Simon the Sorcerer (Acts 8): Simon did works claimed to be from God, but Philip did true miracles in his presence. Simon was so amazed by the contrast that he was converted.

    B) True miracles occurred at a specific point in time.
    Many modern so-called miraculous healings gradually develop over a period of days, weeks, or months, yet people still claim it is a miracle. Bible healings did not gradually develop over a period of days, weeks, or months; but occurred instantaneously.
    -Acts 3: The lame man immediately leaped and walked.
    -Luke 13: The hunch-backed woman was immediately made straight.
    -Mark 2: The paralyzed man got up immediately.
    -Mark 5: The woman with an issue of blood for 12 years was healed immediately.
    -Mark 5: Jairus' daughter had been dead but arose immediately.

    C) True miracles were always successful.
    Modern so-called miracle workers often attempt miracles but fail, especially when attempting to heal obvious physical deformities. Neither Jesus nor His apostles (after they received Holy Spirit baptism) ever attempted to do a miracle and failed. There was no kind of disease they were unable to heal.
    -Matthew 4: Jesus healed all manner of diseases.
    -Matthew 14: All were healed.
    -Acts 5: They were healed every one.

    D) True miracles were complete and perfect.
    Modern so-called miracles often involve partial improvements or relapses or require further medical care and treatment, yet the results are claimed to be miracles. Biblical miracles always completely accomplished what the inspired man said they would and always completely satisfied the need. In healings, people returned immediately to complete and normal health. Every symptom of the disease was removed.
    -Matthew 12: A man's withered hand was restored whole as the other hand.
    -Mark 1: The leper showed himself to the priest as evidence of a complete healing.
    -Acts 3: The lame man leaped and walked.
    -Mark 2: The paralyzed man could walk and carry his bed.

    The point is that these events clearly demonstrated to the observers that something impossible by natural law had occurred; therefore it had to be evidence of God's power. This was necessary in order for miracles to accomplish their purpose of confirming the word preached.

    Some skeptics are mystified about the miracle stories in the Gospels, as they seem to be gems or reporting that even modern newspaper reporters would be proud of.

    Canon Anthony Harvey of Westminster Abbey, an Anglican scholar, observes that this feature of the Gospel accounts is unique in ancient literature: "They do not exaggerate the miracle or add sensational details." He points out, "To a degree that is rare in the writings of antiquity, we can say, to use a modern phrase, that they tell the story straight."
    Reply
    iii) Miracles were often done in the presence of unbelievers, false teachers, and even false miracle-workers.
    -Fake faith healers often refuse to do miracles if doubters or opponents are present, or they excuse their failure on the grounds that the observers lack faith. But when men of God had true power to do miracles, they were not afraid to do them in the presence of people who had questions or doubts, or even people who openly opposed their teaching. At times they would deliberately do miracles in the presence of those who did false miracles, so that people could see the difference. Observers could investigate for themselves the validity of the miracles.
    -Ten Plagues & Red Sea (Exodus 8; 14): Pharaoh's magicians tried to duplicate Moses' miracles, but eventually admitted Moses did miracles by the power of God. Pharaoh and him army witnessed the crossing of the Red Sea, and they drowned when the water collapsed.
    -Elijah on Mt. Carmel (1 Kings 18): The people of Israel doubted who the true God was. Yet in their presence Elijah challenged the prophets of Baal to a showdown to see who had real power of miracles.
    -Daniel's three friends (Daniel 3): Nebuchadnezzar King of Babylon compelled the people to worship an idol. He threw Daniel's three friends into a fiery furnace, then he and his advisors witnessed that they were not hurt in any way.
    -Malchus (Luke 22): When Jesus was being arrested, Peter cut off the ear of the high priest's servant. In the presence of the very men who were arresting Him, Jesus restored the man's ear!
    -Simon the Sorcerer (Acts 8): Simon did works claimed to be from God, but Philip did true miracles in his presence. Simon was so amazed by the contrast that he was converted.

    B) True miracles occurred at a specific point in time.
    Many modern so-called miraculous healings gradually develop over a period of days, weeks, or months, yet people still claim it is a miracle. Bible healings did not gradually develop over a period of days, weeks, or months; but occurred instantaneously.
    -Acts 3: The lame man immediately leaped and walked.
    -Luke 13: The hunch-backed woman was immediately made straight.
    -Mark 2: The paralyzed man got up immediately.
    -Mark 5: The woman with an issue of blood for 12 years was healed immediately.
    -Mark 5: Jairus' daughter had been dead but arose immediately.

    C) True miracles were always successful.
    Modern so-called miracle workers often attempt miracles but fail, especially when attempting to heal obvious physical deformities. Neither Jesus nor His apostles (after they received Holy Spirit baptism) ever attempted to do a miracle and failed. There was no kind of disease they were unable to heal.
    -Matthew 4: Jesus healed all manner of diseases.
    -Matthew 14: All were healed.
    -Acts 5: They were healed every one.

    D) True miracles were complete and perfect.
    Modern so-called miracles often involve partial improvements or relapses or require further medical care and treatment, yet the results are claimed to be miracles. Biblical miracles always completely accomplished what the inspired man said they would and always completely satisfied the need. In healings, people returned immediately to complete and normal health. Every symptom of the disease was removed.
    -Matthew 12: A man's withered hand was restored whole as the other hand.
    -Mark 1: The leper showed himself to the priest as evidence of a complete healing.
    -Acts 3: The lame man leaped and walked.
    -Mark 2: The paralyzed man could walk and carry his bed.

    The point is that these events clearly demonstrated to the observers that something impossible by natural law had occurred; therefore it had to be evidence of God's power. This was necessary in order for miracles to accomplish their purpose of confirming the word preached.

    Some skeptics are mystified about the miracle stories in the Gospels, as they seem to be gems or reporting that even modern newspaper reporters would be proud of.

    Canon Anthony Harvey of Westminster Abbey, an Anglican scholar, observes that this feature of the Gospel accounts is unique in ancient literature: "They do not exaggerate the miracle or add sensational details." He points out, "To a degree that is rare in the writings of antiquity, we can say, to use a modern phrase, that they tell the story straight."
     
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    4) Evidence that Miracles Occurred.
    Since we cannot personally see Jesus and the Bible writers, how can we reach a verdict whether or not miracles really occurred? Again, we must examine the testimony of witnesses.

    A) Writers who recorded Bible miracles.
    Some say that the gospel accounts were simply altered to make it look like Jesus was performing miracles which never happened. However, it is not very probable; the eyewitnesses of Jesus' miracles were still around when the gospels were written and could have easily refuted such claims. Yet, we have no record of any such refutations. The disciples died for what they believed. It was not simply dying for principles or a philosophy like Buddhism. They died for their belief in the risen Lord Jesus who claimed to be God and performed miracles in front of their very eyes. This is far different than believing in something that wasn't tangible or a belief for the sake of believing and being good.

    i) Miracles Jesus performed.
    The time and place in which Jesus lived was not characterized by superstition and gullibility, but by learning and skepticism. This means that the miracles recorded in the Bible (witnessed by thousands of people) should be considered true. It is said that when Jesus came, "His fame spread all throughout Syria; they brought unto Him all sick people taken with diseases, and all that were possessed with devils and He healed them." (Matt. 4:24)
    -Here are a few of the writers who described Biblical miracles:
    -Moses: Exodus 7-12: Moses described in detail how God brought the plagues on Egypt to give evidence that He is God.
    -Exodus 14: Moses recorded the parting of the Red Sea, so Israel passed through on dry ground.
    -Exodus 16: God provided Manna as food for Israel for forty years as they traveled to Canaan. To confirm the manna, God had Moses put a pot of it in the ark, so Israel could carry it with them into Canaan. *Note that Moses was a first-hand eyewitness of the miracles he records.

    -Joshua: Joshua 24: Joshua confirmed the crossing of the Red Sea. Remember, he would have been an eyewitness, so his testimony confirms that of Moses.
    -Joshua 3-4: He also wrote as an eyewitness that God stopped the flow of the Jordan so that Israel crossed it on dry ground.
    -Joshua 5: As an eyewitness, Joshua confirmed Moses' record regarding the manna.
    -Joshua 6: Joshua recorded the fall of the walls of Jericho by miraculous means.

    -Matthew: Matt 9-10: Like the other original apostles, Matthew personally accompanied Jesus for three years; so his record constitutes eyewitness testimony of Jesus' miracles. Furthermore, he himself did miracles by the power Jesus gave the apostles.
    -Matt 14: Every time the account says the apostles (or twelve disciples) were present, Matthew would have been included. In this case, he joined the other apostles in confessing Jesus to be the Son of God, because they witnessed his walking on the water.
    -Like Moses and Joshua, etc., Matthew was an inspired man who wrote part of the Bible, who was a personal eyewitness to miracles done by other inspired men, and whose work as a prophet was confirmed by miracles he himself was empowered by God to do.

    -Luke: Luke 1: Luke wrote a history of the life of Christ and a history of the early church in the book of Acts (Acts 1:1-3). Regarding Jesus' life, Luke himself was not an eyewitness, but he served as an historian to record the eyewitness testimony given him by other regarding the miracles of Jesus. He himself was an eyewitness of many of Paul's miracles. As a historian, his reputation is well established.

    -John: John 20: John recorded the signs Jesus did so we can believe Jesus is the Son of God and we can have life in His name. Like Matthew, John was one of the original apostles. Having accompanied Jesus for three years, he testified regarding miracles he personally saw. And like the other apostles, he himself did miracles to confirm his own record.
    -John 21: John wrote his testimony of these events and testified that it was true.
    -1 John 1: He bore witness about what he and others heard, saw with their eyes, and handled with their hands.

    -Peter: 2 Peter 1: Peter claimed he (and others) were eyewitnesses of the majesty of Jesus, having heard the voice of God who spoke at the Transfiguration. Peter was also one of the original apostles. His record of Jesus' miracles constitutes eyewitness testimony. And he himself did miracles to confirm that God guided him in his writing.

    -Paul: 2 Corinthians 12: Paul claimed that the signs, wonders, and miracles he did confirmed his apostleship. Note that he claimed these miracles were done in the presence of the people to whom he wrote, so they would have known whether or not he did these miracles.
    -1 Corinthians 15: Paul specifically listed himself as an eyewitness of Jesus' resurrection. Note that Paul's claim to do miracles and be an eyewitness was confirmed by Luke, who recorded many of Paul's miracles.

    All these men recorded in writing their eyewitness testimony of miracles that confirm Jesus' claims and the claims of Bible writers. As discussed earlier, these men fully meet the qualifications of valid eyewitnesses. Specifically, all of them suffered greatly for the faith they upheld, and many died at the hands of persecutors. Yet they never denied or compromised their testimony.
    Reply
    4) Evidence that Miracles Occurred.
    Since we cannot personally see Jesus and the Bible writers, how can we reach a verdict whether or not miracles really occurred? Again, we must examine the testimony of witnesses.

    A) Writers who recorded Bible miracles.
    Some say that the gospel accounts were simply altered to make it look like Jesus was performing miracles which never happened. However, it is not very probable; the eyewitnesses of Jesus' miracles were still around when the gospels were written and could have easily refuted such claims. Yet, we have no record of any such refutations. The disciples died for what they believed. It was not simply dying for principles or a philosophy like Buddhism. They died for their belief in the risen Lord Jesus who claimed to be God and performed miracles in front of their very eyes. This is far different than believing in something that wasn't tangible or a belief for the sake of believing and being good.

    i) Miracles Jesus performed.
    The time and place in which Jesus lived was not characterized by superstition and gullibility, but by learning and skepticism. This means that the miracles recorded in the Bible (witnessed by thousands of people) should be considered true. It is said that when Jesus came, "His fame spread all throughout Syria; they brought unto Him all sick people taken with diseases, and all that were possessed with devils and He healed them." (Matt. 4:24)
    -Here are a few of the writers who described Biblical miracles:
    -Moses: Exodus 7-12: Moses described in detail how God brought the plagues on Egypt to give evidence that He is God.
    -Exodus 14: Moses recorded the parting of the Red Sea, so Israel passed through on dry ground.
    -Exodus 16: God provided Manna as food for Israel for forty years as they traveled to Canaan. To confirm the manna, God had Moses put a pot of it in the ark, so Israel could carry it with them into Canaan. *Note that Moses was a first-hand eyewitness of the miracles he records.

    -Joshua: Joshua 24: Joshua confirmed the crossing of the Red Sea. Remember, he would have been an eyewitness, so his testimony confirms that of Moses.
    -Joshua 3-4: He also wrote as an eyewitness that God stopped the flow of the Jordan so that Israel crossed it on dry ground.
    -Joshua 5: As an eyewitness, Joshua confirmed Moses' record regarding the manna.
    -Joshua 6: Joshua recorded the fall of the walls of Jericho by miraculous means.

    -Matthew: Matt 9-10: Like the other original apostles, Matthew personally accompanied Jesus for three years; so his record constitutes eyewitness testimony of Jesus' miracles. Furthermore, he himself did miracles by the power Jesus gave the apostles.
    -Matt 14: Every time the account says the apostles (or twelve disciples) were present, Matthew would have been included. In this case, he joined the other apostles in confessing Jesus to be the Son of God, because they witnessed his walking on the water.
    -Like Moses and Joshua, etc., Matthew was an inspired man who wrote part of the Bible, who was a personal eyewitness to miracles done by other inspired men, and whose work as a prophet was confirmed by miracles he himself was empowered by God to do.

    -Luke: Luke 1: Luke wrote a history of the life of Christ and a history of the early church in the book of Acts (Acts 1:1-3). Regarding Jesus' life, Luke himself was not an eyewitness, but he served as an historian to record the eyewitness testimony given him by other regarding the miracles of Jesus. He himself was an eyewitness of many of Paul's miracles. As a historian, his reputation is well established.

    -John: John 20: John recorded the signs Jesus did so we can believe Jesus is the Son of God and we can have life in His name. Like Matthew, John was one of the original apostles. Having accompanied Jesus for three years, he testified regarding miracles he personally saw. And like the other apostles, he himself did miracles to confirm his own record.
    -John 21: John wrote his testimony of these events and testified that it was true.
    -1 John 1: He bore witness about what he and others heard, saw with their eyes, and handled with their hands.

    -Peter: 2 Peter 1: Peter claimed he (and others) were eyewitnesses of the majesty of Jesus, having heard the voice of God who spoke at the Transfiguration. Peter was also one of the original apostles. His record of Jesus' miracles constitutes eyewitness testimony. And he himself did miracles to confirm that God guided him in his writing.

    -Paul: 2 Corinthians 12: Paul claimed that the signs, wonders, and miracles he did confirmed his apostleship. Note that he claimed these miracles were done in the presence of the people to whom he wrote, so they would have known whether or not he did these miracles.
    -1 Corinthians 15: Paul specifically listed himself as an eyewitness of Jesus' resurrection. Note that Paul's claim to do miracles and be an eyewitness was confirmed by Luke, who recorded many of Paul's miracles.

    All these men recorded in writing their eyewitness testimony of miracles that confirm Jesus' claims and the claims of Bible writers. As discussed earlier, these men fully meet the qualifications of valid eyewitnesses. Specifically, all of them suffered greatly for the faith they upheld, and many died at the hands of persecutors. Yet they never denied or compromised their testimony.
     
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    Posted: Nov. 23, 2011 - 10:04 PM ET #218

    B) Testimony from other people who personally witnessed miracles.
    Thee following witnesses did not write their own testimony in the Bible; however, they did personally witness miracles done by Jesus or by Bible writers; and other Bible writers as historians recorded their testimony.

    -Jesus' mother Mary (Luke 1): Mary testified that she had no relationship with a man, but the angel Gabriel spoke to her and explained that Jesus would be conceived miraculously by the power of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, Jesus would be the Son of the Highest, God would give Him the throne of David, and His kingdom would never end. The testimony of Mary and the angel confirm the reality of the Virgin Birth, which in turn validates Jesus' claims.

    -Joseph (Matthew 1): Likewise Joseph knew that he had not caused Mary to conceive, but an angel also spoke to him and explained that Mary had conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit. So the One to be born would save the people from sin and would be called "God with us." So Joseph's testimony and that of the angel again confirm the Virgin Birth.

    -The Shepherds (Luke 2): A host of angels appeared to shepherds at the time of Jesus' birth and directed them to Jesus. They said that He was the Christ who would be a Savior (v11). So the testimony of the shepherds and of the angels confirms that Jesus was the Christ sent by God. Note that, at the time of these events, the shepherds widely broadcast their testimony about what the angels had told them.

    -John the Baptist (John 1): John bore witness that Jesus is the Son of God, because he saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove and remain on Him. This is John's testimony, not just as a prophet, but as an eyewitness to the miraculous events at Jesus' baptism.

    -Nicodemus (John 3): He said people knew Jesus was a teacher come from God, since no one could do the works Jesus did unless God was with him. So he testified that he knew Jesus had done miracles. 

    -Lepers who were healed (Matt 8; Luke 17): After healing lepers, Jesus told them to go show themselves to the priest. This was a legal requirement under the law: the priest would perform an elaborate examination to confirm that the leprosy was gone.

    -All Jesus' apostles (Acts 10): They witnessed His miracles, how He healed people because God was with Him. As a result, they often made statements that confirmed the validity of the miracles they had witnessed.

    -Multitudes who observed miracles: Jesus and other prophets did their miracles publicly where many people - often great multitudes - could openly observe them. Often the response of the multitudes constitutes acknowledgement of the validity of the miracle.

    -The converts on Pentecost (Acts 2): Peter openly proclaimed that this huge crowd knew that Jesus had done wonders, signs, and miracles among them. He said this was God's way of attesting to Him. Note that this testimony of Jesus' miracles was preached publicly just fifty days after His resurrection. The fact that 3000 accepted the message (v41) proves they knew they had seen Jesus' miracles. If there was no evidence for these events, the people could easily have said so and would surely not have been convinced by the message.

    All of the above people personally witnessed the events listed; they had no reason to lie. The events were recorded (many of them in more than one Bible account) calmly in a way that is evidently intended to constitute historic evidence. Remember that the Bible writers are historically trustworthy. We have earlier established their credibility as historians.

    C) Enemies who testified or witnessed miracles done by prophets of God.
    Men, who had true power to do miracles, were not afraid to do them in the presence of people who doubted or even openly opposed their teaching. At times they would deliberately do miracles in the presence of those who did false miracles, so that people could see the differences. We would not expect unbelievers to make a deliberate effort to spread the knowledge of Bible miracles. Nevertheless, opponents to the truth often, either directly or tacitly, admitted that the miracles really occurred or at least failed completely in efforts to disprove the miracles.
    Reply
    B) Testimony from other people who personally witnessed miracles.
    Thee following witnesses did not write their own testimony in the Bible; however, they did personally witness miracles done by Jesus or by Bible writers; and other Bible writers as historians recorded their testimony.

    -Jesus' mother Mary (Luke 1): Mary testified that she had no relationship with a man, but the angel Gabriel spoke to her and explained that Jesus would be conceived miraculously by the power of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, Jesus would be the Son of the Highest, God would give Him the throne of David, and His kingdom would never end. The testimony of Mary and the angel confirm the reality of the Virgin Birth, which in turn validates Jesus' claims.

    -Joseph (Matthew 1): Likewise Joseph knew that he had not caused Mary to conceive, but an angel also spoke to him and explained that Mary had conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit. So the One to be born would save the people from sin and would be called "God with us." So Joseph's testimony and that of the angel again confirm the Virgin Birth.

    -The Shepherds (Luke 2): A host of angels appeared to shepherds at the time of Jesus' birth and directed them to Jesus. They said that He was the Christ who would be a Savior (v11). So the testimony of the shepherds and of the angels confirms that Jesus was the Christ sent by God. Note that, at the time of these events, the shepherds widely broadcast their testimony about what the angels had told them.

    -John the Baptist (John 1): John bore witness that Jesus is the Son of God, because he saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove and remain on Him. This is John's testimony, not just as a prophet, but as an eyewitness to the miraculous events at Jesus' baptism.

    -Nicodemus (John 3): He said people knew Jesus was a teacher come from God, since no one could do the works Jesus did unless God was with him. So he testified that he knew Jesus had done miracles. 

    -Lepers who were healed (Matt 8; Luke 17): After healing lepers, Jesus told them to go show themselves to the priest. This was a legal requirement under the law: the priest would perform an elaborate examination to confirm that the leprosy was gone.

    -All Jesus' apostles (Acts 10): They witnessed His miracles, how He healed people because God was with Him. As a result, they often made statements that confirmed the validity of the miracles they had witnessed.

    -Multitudes who observed miracles: Jesus and other prophets did their miracles publicly where many people - often great multitudes - could openly observe them. Often the response of the multitudes constitutes acknowledgement of the validity of the miracle.

    -The converts on Pentecost (Acts 2): Peter openly proclaimed that this huge crowd knew that Jesus had done wonders, signs, and miracles among them. He said this was God's way of attesting to Him. Note that this testimony of Jesus' miracles was preached publicly just fifty days after His resurrection. The fact that 3000 accepted the message (v41) proves they knew they had seen Jesus' miracles. If there was no evidence for these events, the people could easily have said so and would surely not have been convinced by the message.

    All of the above people personally witnessed the events listed; they had no reason to lie. The events were recorded (many of them in more than one Bible account) calmly in a way that is evidently intended to constitute historic evidence. Remember that the Bible writers are historically trustworthy. We have earlier established their credibility as historians.

    C) Enemies who testified or witnessed miracles done by prophets of God.
    Men, who had true power to do miracles, were not afraid to do them in the presence of people who doubted or even openly opposed their teaching. At times they would deliberately do miracles in the presence of those who did false miracles, so that people could see the differences. We would not expect unbelievers to make a deliberate effort to spread the knowledge of Bible miracles. Nevertheless, opponents to the truth often, either directly or tacitly, admitted that the miracles really occurred or at least failed completely in efforts to disprove the miracles.
     
    EX4life
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    Posted: Nov. 23, 2011 - 10:04 PM ET #219

    i) Indirect (tacit) admissions:
    -The Egyptian Army (Exodus 14): Moses recorded that Pharaoh's army pursued the Israelites as they left Egypt and caught up to them at the Red Sea. God caused the Sea to part, so Israel passed through on dry ground. Pharaoh's army, attempting to pursue them, was drowned in the sea. The fact that the Egyptian army entered the sea demonstrates that they recognized it had really been parted and that Israel had passed through it. The fact the entire army drowned when the sea returned demonstrates the power of the miracle.

    -Prophets of Baal on Mt Carmel (1 Kings 18): Elijah challenged the prophets of Baal to a showdown to see who had real power of miracles. The false prophets attempted but failed to perform a miracle, which Elijah then obviously accomplished. The fact they could not do such a miracle and then were powerless to prevent their own deaths is a tacit admission that Elijah really did the miracle recorded.

    -Pharisees (John 9): Pharisees attempted to deny that Jesus had miraculously healed the blind man, but were completely unable to disprove it. Their efforts to disprove the miracle simply confirm its validity.

    ii) Direct admissions:
    -Pharaoh's magicians (Exodus 8): Pharaoh's magicians opposed Moses and tried to duplicate his miracles, but eventually they admitted Moses did miracles by the power of God.

    -Nebuchadnezzar and his advisors (Daniel 3): Nebuchadnezzar and his advisors were idolaters. They witnessed the miracle when Daniel's three friends were protected by God in the fiery furnace. Nebuchadnezzar decreed that no other god could deliver like this.

    -People of Nazareth (Mark 6): The people of Jesus' hometown rejected Him, because they knew Him and could not believe such a great man could come from their own midst. Nevertheless, they admitted that "mighty works" were performed by His hands.

    -Pharisees (Matthew 12): The Pharisees said Jesus cast out demons by the power of Satan. But in so doing, they admitted that Jesus really had cast out the demon. (Jesus then refuted their claim that the power was from Satan)

    -Council of chief priests and Pharisees (John 11): After Jesus raised Lazarus, even His enemies admitted He did many miracles.

    Surely none of these witnesses (and I could name more; just left the list at where I did) had any inclination to testify in favor of Bible miracles. None were friends of God's message or messengers - at least not till after they observed the evidence of the miracles. All of them would have denied and disproved the miracles, if they could have successfully done so. Because there were so many hostile witnesses who observed and scrutinized Christ, successful "fabrication" of miracle stories in His ministry would have been impossible. But in the end, none of them could successfully deny Bible miracles, and most of them directly or indirectly acknowledged the miracles. If the enemies of the Bible could not disprove these miracles at the time they occurred, how could anyone thousands of years later expect to disprove them? This testimony demonstrates the overwhelming power of the evidence that miracles really occurred.

    The Miracles at Calvary:
    Many things happened at the time of Jesus' death on the cross. These things would have been common knowledge to multitudes of people and if they were not true would have surely been disputed. Events such as the sky becoming dark in the middle of the day, the temple curtain being torn in half signifying that anyone who believed in Jesus had access to God, and a great earthquake: these events occurred and were witnessed by thousands of people. Matthew 27:54 says, "Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, 'Truly this was the Son of God.'"

    Jesus' Life, Death, and Resurrection Were Not Refuted:
    The writers of the NT were eye-witnesses of what they recorded. The fact that they wrote the manuscripts during the time the enemies of Christ were alive (and could prove whether the things they said were true or not) should be further proof that what was said/written was true. We don't have a record of any refutation as to the birth, life, death, or resurrection of Christ. The Bible says that after His death and resurrection Jesus was seen alive by more than 500 people (1 Corinthians 15:5-8).
    Reply
    i) Indirect (tacit) admissions:
    -The Egyptian Army (Exodus 14): Moses recorded that Pharaoh's army pursued the Israelites as they left Egypt and caught up to them at the Red Sea. God caused the Sea to part, so Israel passed through on dry ground. Pharaoh's army, attempting to pursue them, was drowned in the sea. The fact that the Egyptian army entered the sea demonstrates that they recognized it had really been parted and that Israel had passed through it. The fact the entire army drowned when the sea returned demonstrates the power of the miracle.

    -Prophets of Baal on Mt Carmel (1 Kings 18): Elijah challenged the prophets of Baal to a showdown to see who had real power of miracles. The false prophets attempted but failed to perform a miracle, which Elijah then obviously accomplished. The fact they could not do such a miracle and then were powerless to prevent their own deaths is a tacit admission that Elijah really did the miracle recorded.

    -Pharisees (John 9): Pharisees attempted to deny that Jesus had miraculously healed the blind man, but were completely unable to disprove it. Their efforts to disprove the miracle simply confirm its validity.

    ii) Direct admissions:
    -Pharaoh's magicians (Exodus 8): Pharaoh's magicians opposed Moses and tried to duplicate his miracles, but eventually they admitted Moses did miracles by the power of God.

    -Nebuchadnezzar and his advisors (Daniel 3): Nebuchadnezzar and his advisors were idolaters. They witnessed the miracle when Daniel's three friends were protected by God in the fiery furnace. Nebuchadnezzar decreed that no other god could deliver like this.

    -People of Nazareth (Mark 6): The people of Jesus' hometown rejected Him, because they knew Him and could not believe such a great man could come from their own midst. Nevertheless, they admitted that "mighty works" were performed by His hands.

    -Pharisees (Matthew 12): The Pharisees said Jesus cast out demons by the power of Satan. But in so doing, they admitted that Jesus really had cast out the demon. (Jesus then refuted their claim that the power was from Satan)

    -Council of chief priests and Pharisees (John 11): After Jesus raised Lazarus, even His enemies admitted He did many miracles.

    Surely none of these witnesses (and I could name more; just left the list at where I did) had any inclination to testify in favor of Bible miracles. None were friends of God's message or messengers - at least not till after they observed the evidence of the miracles. All of them would have denied and disproved the miracles, if they could have successfully done so. Because there were so many hostile witnesses who observed and scrutinized Christ, successful "fabrication" of miracle stories in His ministry would have been impossible. But in the end, none of them could successfully deny Bible miracles, and most of them directly or indirectly acknowledged the miracles. If the enemies of the Bible could not disprove these miracles at the time they occurred, how could anyone thousands of years later expect to disprove them? This testimony demonstrates the overwhelming power of the evidence that miracles really occurred.

    The Miracles at Calvary:
    Many things happened at the time of Jesus' death on the cross. These things would have been common knowledge to multitudes of people and if they were not true would have surely been disputed. Events such as the sky becoming dark in the middle of the day, the temple curtain being torn in half signifying that anyone who believed in Jesus had access to God, and a great earthquake: these events occurred and were witnessed by thousands of people. Matthew 27:54 says, "Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, 'Truly this was the Son of God.'"

    Jesus' Life, Death, and Resurrection Were Not Refuted:
    The writers of the NT were eye-witnesses of what they recorded. The fact that they wrote the manuscripts during the time the enemies of Christ were alive (and could prove whether the things they said were true or not) should be further proof that what was said/written was true. We don't have a record of any refutation as to the birth, life, death, or resurrection of Christ. The Bible says that after His death and resurrection Jesus was seen alive by more than 500 people (1 Corinthians 15:5-8).
     
    EX4life
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    Posted: Nov. 23, 2011 - 10:05 PM ET #220

    D) Historians and other miscellaneous references to Jesus and His miracles:
    i) The Disciples: One must also recognize the noble character of the men who witnessed these miracles (Peter, James, and John, for example). Such men were not prone to misrepresentation, and were willing to give up their lives rather than deny their beliefs. Also important is the fact that eleven of the twelve apostles died a martyr's death for no other reason than for being followers of Jesus Christ. If the death and resurrection of Jesus was a hoax, then these men must have known it, and would not have chosen to die such horrible deaths.

    Josephus (the first century Jewish historian), and Tacitus (an early second century Roman historian) make significant reference to Jesus. The mid-first century Roman historian Thallus makes reference to the darkness of the sun at the time of the crucifixion.

    Specific details in the Gospel accounts and the fact that first-century Jewish authorities acknowledged Jesus' miracles (John 3:2), adds weight to the case. Even so-called antagonistic sources, such as the Talmud and certain Islamic writings, allude to the miracles of Jesus. Then, finally, all attempts to refute the broad-ranging reports of miracles in the Bible have themselves lacked reliable documentation and credibility.

    Conclusion:
    We have now studied around 30 or so miracles described in the Bible, and many more could be discussed. These were done by God at the hands of at least ten different prophets. They were recorded by at least ten Bible writers in at least 15 books of the Bible. In addition, the accounts cite more than 15 individuals or groups who were opponents of God's people but who directly or indirectly acknowledged that Bible miracles really did occur. In addition another 15 individuals or groups (who were not necessarily opposed to the message) are also cited as having acknowledged Bible miracles. That makes a total of more than thirty individuals or groups who admitted Jesus or Bible prophets really did miracles. 

    Compare this to other religious groups who claim to be from God. Many of them make few claims of miracles. If they make some claims, they have no eyewitnesses and accounts are often legends recorded years after the event allegedly occurred. Or the events fail to measure up to the characteristics of Bible miracles, so those of us who disagree with their teaching can easily deny the validity of their "miracles" and point out where they fail to measure up.

    For example, compare Moses and Jesus to men like Mohammed and Joseph Smith. Everyone knows about the miracles of Moses and Jesus. People immediately associate the plagues and the crossing of the Red Sea with Moses. And they immediately associate Jesus with the virgin birth and resurrection. When people think of Moses and Jesus, they think of miracles. Mohammed and Smith also claimed to be prophets like Bible prophets, and they delivered writings and religious systems that they claim are equal to those of the Bible. But what miracles are associated with Mohammed or Smith? What miracles do you immediately think of when you think of those men, like the miracles people associate with Moses and Jesus?

    Muslims and Mormons rarely make serious claims that Mohammed and Smith did miracles to confirm their messages. If you press for examples of miracles, they may make a few claims based, not on eyewitness testimony, but on tradition or fables written years after the alleged events. Some claim that, one night, Mohammed was allegedly carried to Jerusalem and from there ascended into heaven to see wonderful visions. However, no one saw it happen. His wife says he never left the bed. There is absolutely no eyewitness testimony to confirm any miracles done by Mohammed. Whether friend or foe, the people who really saw the works of Jesus and His apostles, could not successfully deny that miracles were done. Their testimony becomes evidence on which we can base our faith. No religious group which is not based on the Bible can even approach the Bible evidence of miracles.
    Reply
    D) Historians and other miscellaneous references to Jesus and His miracles:
    i) The Disciples: One must also recognize the noble character of the men who witnessed these miracles (Peter, James, and John, for example). Such men were not prone to misrepresentation, and were willing to give up their lives rather than deny their beliefs. Also important is the fact that eleven of the twelve apostles died a martyr's death for no other reason than for being followers of Jesus Christ. If the death and resurrection of Jesus was a hoax, then these men must have known it, and would not have chosen to die such horrible deaths.

    Josephus (the first century Jewish historian), and Tacitus (an early second century Roman historian) make significant reference to Jesus. The mid-first century Roman historian Thallus makes reference to the darkness of the sun at the time of the crucifixion.

    Specific details in the Gospel accounts and the fact that first-century Jewish authorities acknowledged Jesus' miracles (John 3:2), adds weight to the case. Even so-called antagonistic sources, such as the Talmud and certain Islamic writings, allude to the miracles of Jesus. Then, finally, all attempts to refute the broad-ranging reports of miracles in the Bible have themselves lacked reliable documentation and credibility.

    Conclusion:
    We have now studied around 30 or so miracles described in the Bible, and many more could be discussed. These were done by God at the hands of at least ten different prophets. They were recorded by at least ten Bible writers in at least 15 books of the Bible. In addition, the accounts cite more than 15 individuals or groups who were opponents of God's people but who directly or indirectly acknowledged that Bible miracles really did occur. In addition another 15 individuals or groups (who were not necessarily opposed to the message) are also cited as having acknowledged Bible miracles. That makes a total of more than thirty individuals or groups who admitted Jesus or Bible prophets really did miracles. 

    Compare this to other religious groups who claim to be from God. Many of them make few claims of miracles. If they make some claims, they have no eyewitnesses and accounts are often legends recorded years after the event allegedly occurred. Or the events fail to measure up to the characteristics of Bible miracles, so those of us who disagree with their teaching can easily deny the validity of their "miracles" and point out where they fail to measure up.

    For example, compare Moses and Jesus to men like Mohammed and Joseph Smith. Everyone knows about the miracles of Moses and Jesus. People immediately associate the plagues and the crossing of the Red Sea with Moses. And they immediately associate Jesus with the virgin birth and resurrection. When people think of Moses and Jesus, they think of miracles. Mohammed and Smith also claimed to be prophets like Bible prophets, and they delivered writings and religious systems that they claim are equal to those of the Bible. But what miracles are associated with Mohammed or Smith? What miracles do you immediately think of when you think of those men, like the miracles people associate with Moses and Jesus?

    Muslims and Mormons rarely make serious claims that Mohammed and Smith did miracles to confirm their messages. If you press for examples of miracles, they may make a few claims based, not on eyewitness testimony, but on tradition or fables written years after the alleged events. Some claim that, one night, Mohammed was allegedly carried to Jerusalem and from there ascended into heaven to see wonderful visions. However, no one saw it happen. His wife says he never left the bed. There is absolutely no eyewitness testimony to confirm any miracles done by Mohammed. Whether friend or foe, the people who really saw the works of Jesus and His apostles, could not successfully deny that miracles were done. Their testimony becomes evidence on which we can base our faith. No religious group which is not based on the Bible can even approach the Bible evidence of miracles.
     
    EX4life
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    Posted: Nov. 23, 2011 - 10:05 PM ET #221

    ORIGINAL POINT:

    The disciples were only beginning to grasp God's truth and way. Not until they received the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost did they receive a more complete spiritual understanding and power. On the final night of Jesus' earthly life, just before his arrest and trial, Jesus instituted the Lord's Supper with his disciples. He explained how the Pentecost miracle would occur in their minds - and can in ours.

    There is a reason why a miracle of understanding and faith must occur in our minds. We are what the Bible calls "fleshly" beings. We understand only what our eyes, ears and other physical organs bring to our mind. We grasp only human purposes and actions. But God is Spirit. His ways, character and purposes cannot be understood unless He grants us a miracle of additional understanding (Isaiah 55:8-9). 

    No matter how much evidence is produced, if a person doesn't want to believe in God he/she won;t. However, there is a lot of evidence that supports the truth of the Bible. God said: "Those who seek Me with their whole heart will find Me." (Jeremiah 29:13)

    Two popular religious writers, Kenneth Boa and Larry Moody, expressed it well in their book, I'm Glad You Asked. They said, "If God created the universe, there is a supernatural dimension to reality, and this means that miracles are possible." If God exists, does He have the power to interact with and alter any law of nature? The answer must be yes. To accept Jesus' miracles as myths or mere stories with a lesson and to seek natural explanations amounts to a tacit presupposition that God does not exist, or that he is unable to affect the natural world and, therefore, is removed from our experience.

    Belief in Jesus' miracles, then, rests on belief in God. As John Lafarge once said of miracles: "For those who believe in God, no explanation is needed; for those who do not believe in God, no explanation is possible."

    I could sit here and type day after day, showing countless ways in which God really does exist, sent His one and only Son, who died on the cross and rose in three days to save all of mankind; but if you do not believe in God, you must ask yourself; is there truly anything I (or anybody else) can say, prove, or show that would change your mind? I hope this helps.


    matt4000, I would love to help out in any way that I can. I have work at the golf course tomorrow morning, so I am going to bed now. But I will check it out as soon as I get home tomorrow. Have a great Thanksgiving.
    Reply
    ORIGINAL POINT:

    The disciples were only beginning to grasp God's truth and way. Not until they received the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost did they receive a more complete spiritual understanding and power. On the final night of Jesus' earthly life, just before his arrest and trial, Jesus instituted the Lord's Supper with his disciples. He explained how the Pentecost miracle would occur in their minds - and can in ours.

    There is a reason why a miracle of understanding and faith must occur in our minds. We are what the Bible calls "fleshly" beings. We understand only what our eyes, ears and other physical organs bring to our mind. We grasp only human purposes and actions. But God is Spirit. His ways, character and purposes cannot be understood unless He grants us a miracle of additional understanding (Isaiah 55:8-9). 

    No matter how much evidence is produced, if a person doesn't want to believe in God he/she won;t. However, there is a lot of evidence that supports the truth of the Bible. God said: "Those who seek Me with their whole heart will find Me." (Jeremiah 29:13)

    Two popular religious writers, Kenneth Boa and Larry Moody, expressed it well in their book, I'm Glad You Asked. They said, "If God created the universe, there is a supernatural dimension to reality, and this means that miracles are possible." If God exists, does He have the power to interact with and alter any law of nature? The answer must be yes. To accept Jesus' miracles as myths or mere stories with a lesson and to seek natural explanations amounts to a tacit presupposition that God does not exist, or that he is unable to affect the natural world and, therefore, is removed from our experience.

    Belief in Jesus' miracles, then, rests on belief in God. As John Lafarge once said of miracles: "For those who believe in God, no explanation is needed; for those who do not believe in God, no explanation is possible."

    I could sit here and type day after day, showing countless ways in which God really does exist, sent His one and only Son, who died on the cross and rose in three days to save all of mankind; but if you do not believe in God, you must ask yourself; is there truly anything I (or anybody else) can say, prove, or show that would change your mind? I hope this helps.


    matt4000, I would love to help out in any way that I can. I have work at the golf course tomorrow morning, so I am going to bed now. But I will check it out as soon as I get home tomorrow. Have a great Thanksgiving.
     
    EX4life
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    Posted: Dec. 2, 2011 - 10:33 PM ET #222

    Hey everybody, hope all is well... i finally was able to take a much needed vacation from work and am down here in Florida til Tuesday. Just wanted to let everybody know that I have access, obviously, to the internet, so please ask questions or comment if you have any, and ill respond as quickly and efficiently as I can.

    I would also like to hear from the people that have asked questions in this thread; I have not gotten any comments from the people that have asked questions, after I have answered them. So I am not sure if that means that my answers helped, or cleared up anything that was confusing to anyone. So please ask more questions, or let me know if my answers helped... I would really appreciate it 
    Reply
    Hey everybody, hope all is well... i finally was able to take a much needed vacation from work and am down here in Florida til Tuesday. Just wanted to let everybody know that I have access, obviously, to the internet, so please ask questions or comment if you have any, and ill respond as quickly and efficiently as I can.

    I would also like to hear from the people that have asked questions in this thread; I have not gotten any comments from the people that have asked questions, after I have answered them. So I am not sure if that means that my answers helped, or cleared up anything that was confusing to anyone. So please ask more questions, or let me know if my answers helped... I would really appreciate it 
     
    Randisist
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    Posted: Dec. 2, 2011 - 10:54 PM ET #223

    One quick question...

    Really... Honestly... Do you actually think anybody is going to read that last series of posts???

    This is my first visit to this thread and there is no way I would read all your commentary.

    Not that you should not post your thoughts/comments/commentary... I whole heartily support your right to do so...

    As I like to say... You do in life what you think is right...
    Reply
    One quick question...

    Really... Honestly... Do you actually think anybody is going to read that last series of posts???

    This is my first visit to this thread and there is no way I would read all your commentary.

    Not that you should not post your thoughts/comments/commentary... I whole heartily support your right to do so...

    As I like to say... You do in life what you think is right...
     
    EX4life
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    Posted: Dec. 2, 2011 - 11:07 PM ET #224

    Thanks for the honesty Randsist. I have said several times in this thread that there is a ton of information that I have presented here, and so the likelihood that each person that reads this thread actually reads all of it, is highly unlikely. On the other hand, if the people that have asked questions are truly asking them honestly, because they are either confused or something like that, then I think that they would want to read all of my answer (at least the answer pertaining to their question). 

    One reason why I have answered the questions in such detail is that if I were to answer each question partially, or not be as detailed as I have been, then some people might find some "loophole" or discrepancy with what I had answered. Answering each question is essential to fully grasp the message I am trying to present.

    Thanks again for your comment. Hopefully I have helped some people, and hopefully everybody has read at least the answers to the questions they had 
    Reply
    Thanks for the honesty Randsist. I have said several times in this thread that there is a ton of information that I have presented here, and so the likelihood that each person that reads this thread actually reads all of it, is highly unlikely. On the other hand, if the people that have asked questions are truly asking them honestly, because they are either confused or something like that, then I think that they would want to read all of my answer (at least the answer pertaining to their question). 

    One reason why I have answered the questions in such detail is that if I were to answer each question partially, or not be as detailed as I have been, then some people might find some "loophole" or discrepancy with what I had answered. Answering each question is essential to fully grasp the message I am trying to present.

    Thanks again for your comment. Hopefully I have helped some people, and hopefully everybody has read at least the answers to the questions they had 
     
     
    Randisist
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    Posted: Dec. 3, 2011 - 5:21 AM ET #225

    Now you know as well as I do that people will find loop holes... Even if they have to make them up.

    Plus the more you post the easier it is to find that one sentence that when taken out of context proves beyond any doubt that everything you have posted is wrong.

    But please do not let me discourage you...

    Just out of curiosity... Do you believe that dinosaurs existed and the world is is 4.54 billion years old?
    Reply
    Now you know as well as I do that people will find loop holes... Even if they have to make them up.

    Plus the more you post the easier it is to find that one sentence that when taken out of context proves beyond any doubt that everything you have posted is wrong.

    But please do not let me discourage you...

    Just out of curiosity... Do you believe that dinosaurs existed and the world is is 4.54 billion years old?
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