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    All Forums | General Discussion

    Christianity continued....

    123 ... 91011 Next Last»
    EX4life
    slikstiks99
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    EX4life
    EX4life
    All-Star
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Dec, 2009
    Posts: 13235
    Posted: Sep. 15, 2011 - 10:16 PM ET #1

    I have been a christian my whole life; I have messed up more times than I can probably think of. I try to live my life, as much as possible, as a good example for others, while trying to figure and carry out the will of God. I come in to the GD Forum a good amount, but I do not think I have ever posted in here. I am very passionate about what I believe, as are most people; but one thing about me is that I will never bash, criticize, or make fun of another person; whether its of a bet, their religion, etc...

    I started reading the thread by Crashdavis525 about Jesus dying on the cross. Crashdavis, I hope you do not mind me trying to answer that in this thread, as I want to try and shed light on that question, as well as any other questions pertaining to Christianity. I think that is a great question you present, and my only hope is that I can answer that to the best of my ability.

    Before I get into that specific question, as well as my response to it, I want to also invite any and everybody to ask questions or make a comment about Christianity; whether its asking "why" or "how;" All I ask in return is to please not make a sarcastic comment, or make fun of anything that is relevant to this topic. I respect everybody and will respect every  question that is posted in here; all I ask is for the same in return
    Reply
    To remove first post, remove entire topic.
    I have been a christian my whole life; I have messed up more times than I can probably think of. I try to live my life, as much as possible, as a good example for others, while trying to figure and carry out the will of God. I come in to the GD Forum a good amount, but I do not think I have ever posted in here. I am very passionate about what I believe, as are most people; but one thing about me is that I will never bash, criticize, or make fun of another person; whether its of a bet, their religion, etc...

    I started reading the thread by Crashdavis525 about Jesus dying on the cross. Crashdavis, I hope you do not mind me trying to answer that in this thread, as I want to try and shed light on that question, as well as any other questions pertaining to Christianity. I think that is a great question you present, and my only hope is that I can answer that to the best of my ability.

    Before I get into that specific question, as well as my response to it, I want to also invite any and everybody to ask questions or make a comment about Christianity; whether its asking "why" or "how;" All I ask in return is to please not make a sarcastic comment, or make fun of anything that is relevant to this topic. I respect everybody and will respect every  question that is posted in here; all I ask is for the same in return
     
    EX4life
    EX4life
    All-Star
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Dec, 2009
    Posts: 13235
    Posted: Sep. 15, 2011 - 10:16 PM ET #2

    Most of the quotes I will use will be taken straight from the Bible; and so to start off, I am going to set the foundation by talking a little bit about Biblical truths.

    -Over 25,000 sites have been discovered that pertain to the Bible.
    -Nelson Glueck, who is a Jewish archaeologist, said "It may be stated categorically that no archaeological discovery has ever controverted a biblical reference."
    -Accuracy of Biblical prophesies: over 2,000 accurately fulfilled predictions in the Bible, which also includes roughly 300 specific details and implications about the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ (I will use a lot of examples of these types of prophesies a little further down).
    -There are no prophetic failures.
    -All of the New Testament writers were of Jesus' generation.
                  -Each writer was either an eyewitness to Jesus, or an interviewer to an eyewitness (3 of these writers were disciples of Jesus: Matthew, John, and Peter).
    -Time intervals between the actual events, the date of the writing, and the earliest known manuscript copy: 
                  -For the Bible, manuscript copies (or portions of copies) exist that were written within 35-160 years after the originals.
                  -One manuscript of part of the Gospel of Matthew has been recently dated; and it suggests that it was written in about AD 50 (17 years after the death of Christ). This would mean that the Gospel of Mark, which predates Matthew's gospel, was written as early as AD 40 (Only 7 years after the death of Christ!).
    -The interval between historical events and the written evidence is far better for the New Testament than any other ancient manuscript.
                  -Example: The first account of Buddha's life was written 700 years after his death.
                  -Example: The earliest copy of Caesar's works is 950 years after being written.
                  -Example: The earliest available copy of Plato's works is dated 1250 years after the original.
    -The degree of textual evidence in the existing copies of the New Testament is even more impressive:
                  -With the enormous number of ancient New Testement manuscripts, there are only nominal differences in the various copies; only 40 lines, or 1/5 of one percent are in question, and none of these variants effect the Christian doctrine.
                  -This compares to large textual variances in other ancient writings: The NT is 25 times more accurately coped than the Iliad, which is considered one of the best copied works of antiquity.
    -The consistency of the Bible is absolutely amazing:
                  -The messages of approximately 40 different writers of the 66 books of the Bible, written over the span of 1500 years, in 3 different languages, all fit together like a puzzle... There is one continual theme throughout - God's plan of salvation from sin won for the whole world by the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
    -Upon examination, there are no errors or contradictions in the Bible.
    -Lastly, the more one studies, without bias, the teachings found in the Bible, the more he/she will see that they conform to the truths of experience and human nature.

    What I am going to do now is copy and paste some of the questions/statements that I noticed in the other thread, and go from there.
    Reply
    Most of the quotes I will use will be taken straight from the Bible; and so to start off, I am going to set the foundation by talking a little bit about Biblical truths.

    -Over 25,000 sites have been discovered that pertain to the Bible.
    -Nelson Glueck, who is a Jewish archaeologist, said "It may be stated categorically that no archaeological discovery has ever controverted a biblical reference."
    -Accuracy of Biblical prophesies: over 2,000 accurately fulfilled predictions in the Bible, which also includes roughly 300 specific details and implications about the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ (I will use a lot of examples of these types of prophesies a little further down).
    -There are no prophetic failures.
    -All of the New Testament writers were of Jesus' generation.
                  -Each writer was either an eyewitness to Jesus, or an interviewer to an eyewitness (3 of these writers were disciples of Jesus: Matthew, John, and Peter).
    -Time intervals between the actual events, the date of the writing, and the earliest known manuscript copy: 
                  -For the Bible, manuscript copies (or portions of copies) exist that were written within 35-160 years after the originals.
                  -One manuscript of part of the Gospel of Matthew has been recently dated; and it suggests that it was written in about AD 50 (17 years after the death of Christ). This would mean that the Gospel of Mark, which predates Matthew's gospel, was written as early as AD 40 (Only 7 years after the death of Christ!).
    -The interval between historical events and the written evidence is far better for the New Testament than any other ancient manuscript.
                  -Example: The first account of Buddha's life was written 700 years after his death.
                  -Example: The earliest copy of Caesar's works is 950 years after being written.
                  -Example: The earliest available copy of Plato's works is dated 1250 years after the original.
    -The degree of textual evidence in the existing copies of the New Testament is even more impressive:
                  -With the enormous number of ancient New Testement manuscripts, there are only nominal differences in the various copies; only 40 lines, or 1/5 of one percent are in question, and none of these variants effect the Christian doctrine.
                  -This compares to large textual variances in other ancient writings: The NT is 25 times more accurately coped than the Iliad, which is considered one of the best copied works of antiquity.
    -The consistency of the Bible is absolutely amazing:
                  -The messages of approximately 40 different writers of the 66 books of the Bible, written over the span of 1500 years, in 3 different languages, all fit together like a puzzle... There is one continual theme throughout - God's plan of salvation from sin won for the whole world by the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
    -Upon examination, there are no errors or contradictions in the Bible.
    -Lastly, the more one studies, without bias, the teachings found in the Bible, the more he/she will see that they conform to the truths of experience and human nature.

    What I am going to do now is copy and paste some of the questions/statements that I noticed in the other thread, and go from there.
     
    EX4life
    EX4life
    All-Star
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Dec, 2009
    Posts: 13235
    Posted: Sep. 15, 2011 - 10:16 PM ET #3

    "Why does it matter that he gave his human life on the cross. What is a human life worth in the Kingdom of God?"

    God created man in His image, equally. He does not favor any one person over another. His love for all of mankind is just as equal. 
    -Luke 15: 8-10 reads, "Or what woman, if she has ten silver coins and loses one coin, does not light a lamp and sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it? When she has found it, she calls together her friends and neighbors, saying, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found the coin which I had lost!' In the same way, I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents."
    -John 3: 16-17 says, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him."
               -God did not send Jesus for only the person, or only the Christians, or for only the Muslims, etc... God sent his only Son for the WHOLE world.
    -Matthew 20:28, "just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."
    -1 John 4: 9-10, "By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent his only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him. In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins."

    "Is this really that big of a sacrifice?"

    The extent of Jesus' sacrifice is beyond anything that you, I, or anybody else can imagine. His sacrifice saves our spiritual body from eternal suffering; but we have to choose to follow Christ.

    -Romans 3: 23-26, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness." 

    Romans 3: 23-26 essentially sums up why Jesus' sacrifice was extremely important. I will go into a little bit more detail to hopefully shed more light on it.

    Step 1: No one is righteous and we all need help:
               -Romans 5:12, "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned."
              -Romans 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
    Step 2: God has provided that help in the form of his Son, making peace with us:
              -Romans 8:3, "For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh."
              -Ephesians 2: 1-6, "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus."
    Step 3: Therefore God no longer condemns those who are in Christ:
              -1 Peter 1: 18-19, "Knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ."
              -1 Peter 3:18, "For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit."
    Reply
    "Why does it matter that he gave his human life on the cross. What is a human life worth in the Kingdom of God?"

    God created man in His image, equally. He does not favor any one person over another. His love for all of mankind is just as equal. 
    -Luke 15: 8-10 reads, "Or what woman, if she has ten silver coins and loses one coin, does not light a lamp and sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it? When she has found it, she calls together her friends and neighbors, saying, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found the coin which I had lost!' In the same way, I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents."
    -John 3: 16-17 says, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him."
               -God did not send Jesus for only the person, or only the Christians, or for only the Muslims, etc... God sent his only Son for the WHOLE world.
    -Matthew 20:28, "just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."
    -1 John 4: 9-10, "By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent his only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him. In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins."

    "Is this really that big of a sacrifice?"

    The extent of Jesus' sacrifice is beyond anything that you, I, or anybody else can imagine. His sacrifice saves our spiritual body from eternal suffering; but we have to choose to follow Christ.

    -Romans 3: 23-26, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness." 

    Romans 3: 23-26 essentially sums up why Jesus' sacrifice was extremely important. I will go into a little bit more detail to hopefully shed more light on it.

    Step 1: No one is righteous and we all need help:
               -Romans 5:12, "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned."
              -Romans 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
    Step 2: God has provided that help in the form of his Son, making peace with us:
              -Romans 8:3, "For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh."
              -Ephesians 2: 1-6, "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus."
    Step 3: Therefore God no longer condemns those who are in Christ:
              -1 Peter 1: 18-19, "Knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ."
              -1 Peter 3:18, "For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit."
     
    EX4life
    EX4life
    All-Star
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Dec, 2009
    Posts: 13235
    Posted: Sep. 15, 2011 - 10:17 PM ET #4

    "If he dies at 27 or at 77, what is the difference? If he dies in his sleep or on the cross, what is the big deal?"

    Jesus had to die on the cross to fulfill prophesies foretold many years before. If Jesus has not died on the cross, the Bible, faith, and power of God would be in vain.

    But I want to talk first about why Jesus came from heaven to take human form.

    -To carry out the plan: John 6: 38-40, "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

    -To set the perfect example for the human race: 1 Peter 2: 21-25, "For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps, who committed no sin, nor was any deceit found in His mouth; and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously; and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed."

    -To better communicate with us: Perhaps you have heard this story read over the radio around Christmastime (I have a few times in the past)... 

    One raw winter night a man heard an irregular thumping sound against the kitchen storm door. He went to a window and watched as tiny, shivering sparrows, attracted to the evident warmth inside, beat in vain against the glass. Touched, the farmer bundled up and  trudged through fresh snow to open the barn door for the struggling birds. He turned on the lights and tossed some hay in the corner. But the sparrows, which had scattered in all directions when he emerged from the house, hid in the darkness, afraid.

    The man tried various tactics to get them into the barn. He laid down a trail of saltine cracker crumbs to direct them. He tried circling behind the birds to drive them toward the barn. Nothing worked. He, a huge, alien creature, had terrified them; the birds couldn't comprehend that he actually desired to help.

    The farmer withdrew to his house and watched the doomed sparrows through a window. As he stared, a thought hit him like lightening from a clear blue sky: If only I could become a bird - one of them - just for a moment. Then I wouldn't frighten them so. I could show them the way to warmth and safety. 

    At the same moment, another thought dawned on him. He had grasped the reason Jesus was born."

    Jesus was like no other person who ever lived. Twelve men left their jobs and families at a single command to follow him. Jesus shows us the power of a man who healed the blind with a simple touch (Mark 8:25), the authority of a teacher so captivating that people sat three days straight, with empty stomachs, just to hear him (Mark 8:2), a surge of compassion for a person with leprosy (Mark 1:41), a look of anger and distress at cold-hearted legalists (Mark 3:5), and many other range of emotions.

    One of the best examples in the Bible as to why Jesus became human, is Hebrews 2:17, "Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people."

    His love for us is so great because when the Son of God left heaven he gave up all of his power and all his glory. No longer did he sit at the right hand of God Almighty. Instead of having the glory and honor of being the Son of God, he had voluntarily reduced himself to a mere mortal. It is truly incredible but the Son of God allowed himself to be born into a world that he himself had created. 

    It's amazing but God is telling us that he loved us so much that he became one of us. And he did all of this just for the privilege of welcoming you and I into heaven. 

    Fulfilling prophecies: The idea of Jesus dying was inconceivable, even to Jesus' closest followers. The Son of God die? How could this be? Could the Creator of all things succumb to his creation? Disciples who had worked through every other confrontation by his side now forsook him. It made no sense for Jesus, the Messiah, to die. Not until later would other thoughts click into place: memories of the Old Testament customs that hauntingly pointed to a cross, prophecies of a Messiah who was King but also a Suffering Servant (from Isaiah 53). To die was, after all, the central reason Jesus came to earth; he had insisted on that from the beginning. 

    Biblical prophesies - No other religion has specific, repeated, and unfailing fulfillment of predictions many years in advance of contingent events over which the predictor had no control.

    Some people might object and say that Jesus manipulated events to fulfill prophecy... Here are reasons why this objection cannot be true:
    -Many prophecies were out of his control (ancestry, place of birth, time of death).
    -His miracles confirmed Jesus to be the Messiah.
    -There is no evidence that Jesus was a deceiver.
    -In order to manipulate all the people (including his enemies) and even his disciples to make it appear that he was the Messiah, Jesus would have needed supernatural powers. If he had such powers, he must have been the Messiah that he claimed to be.


    Reply
    "If he dies at 27 or at 77, what is the difference? If he dies in his sleep or on the cross, what is the big deal?"

    Jesus had to die on the cross to fulfill prophesies foretold many years before. If Jesus has not died on the cross, the Bible, faith, and power of God would be in vain.

    But I want to talk first about why Jesus came from heaven to take human form.

    -To carry out the plan: John 6: 38-40, "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

    -To set the perfect example for the human race: 1 Peter 2: 21-25, "For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps, who committed no sin, nor was any deceit found in His mouth; and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously; and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed."

    -To better communicate with us: Perhaps you have heard this story read over the radio around Christmastime (I have a few times in the past)... 

    One raw winter night a man heard an irregular thumping sound against the kitchen storm door. He went to a window and watched as tiny, shivering sparrows, attracted to the evident warmth inside, beat in vain against the glass. Touched, the farmer bundled up and  trudged through fresh snow to open the barn door for the struggling birds. He turned on the lights and tossed some hay in the corner. But the sparrows, which had scattered in all directions when he emerged from the house, hid in the darkness, afraid.

    The man tried various tactics to get them into the barn. He laid down a trail of saltine cracker crumbs to direct them. He tried circling behind the birds to drive them toward the barn. Nothing worked. He, a huge, alien creature, had terrified them; the birds couldn't comprehend that he actually desired to help.

    The farmer withdrew to his house and watched the doomed sparrows through a window. As he stared, a thought hit him like lightening from a clear blue sky: If only I could become a bird - one of them - just for a moment. Then I wouldn't frighten them so. I could show them the way to warmth and safety. 

    At the same moment, another thought dawned on him. He had grasped the reason Jesus was born."

    Jesus was like no other person who ever lived. Twelve men left their jobs and families at a single command to follow him. Jesus shows us the power of a man who healed the blind with a simple touch (Mark 8:25), the authority of a teacher so captivating that people sat three days straight, with empty stomachs, just to hear him (Mark 8:2), a surge of compassion for a person with leprosy (Mark 1:41), a look of anger and distress at cold-hearted legalists (Mark 3:5), and many other range of emotions.

    One of the best examples in the Bible as to why Jesus became human, is Hebrews 2:17, "Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people."

    His love for us is so great because when the Son of God left heaven he gave up all of his power and all his glory. No longer did he sit at the right hand of God Almighty. Instead of having the glory and honor of being the Son of God, he had voluntarily reduced himself to a mere mortal. It is truly incredible but the Son of God allowed himself to be born into a world that he himself had created. 

    It's amazing but God is telling us that he loved us so much that he became one of us. And he did all of this just for the privilege of welcoming you and I into heaven. 

    Fulfilling prophecies: The idea of Jesus dying was inconceivable, even to Jesus' closest followers. The Son of God die? How could this be? Could the Creator of all things succumb to his creation? Disciples who had worked through every other confrontation by his side now forsook him. It made no sense for Jesus, the Messiah, to die. Not until later would other thoughts click into place: memories of the Old Testament customs that hauntingly pointed to a cross, prophecies of a Messiah who was King but also a Suffering Servant (from Isaiah 53). To die was, after all, the central reason Jesus came to earth; he had insisted on that from the beginning. 

    Biblical prophesies - No other religion has specific, repeated, and unfailing fulfillment of predictions many years in advance of contingent events over which the predictor had no control.

    Some people might object and say that Jesus manipulated events to fulfill prophecy... Here are reasons why this objection cannot be true:
    -Many prophecies were out of his control (ancestry, place of birth, time of death).
    -His miracles confirmed Jesus to be the Messiah.
    -There is no evidence that Jesus was a deceiver.
    -In order to manipulate all the people (including his enemies) and even his disciples to make it appear that he was the Messiah, Jesus would have needed supernatural powers. If he had such powers, he must have been the Messiah that he claimed to be.


     
    EX4life
    EX4life
    All-Star
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Dec, 2009
    Posts: 13235
    Posted: Sep. 15, 2011 - 10:17 PM ET #5

    -List of Messianic Prophecies:
    1) Messiah to be the seed of Abraham: Old Testament (Genesis 12: 2-3, 18:18) - New Testament (Matthew 1: 1-2, Luke 3:34, Acts 3:25, Galatians 3:16).

    2) Messiah to be of the tribe of Judah: OT (Genesis 49:10) - NT (Matthew 1:1-2).

    3) Messiah to be of the seed of David: OT (2 Samuel 7:16, Psalm 132:11, Jeremiah 23:5, 33:15) - NT (Matthew 1:6, 22:42-45, Luke 1: 31-33, Acts 2: 29-30, Romans 1:3).

    4) Messiah to be born of a virgin: OT (Isaiah 7:14) - NT (Matthew 1: 18-25, Luke 1: 26-38).

    5) Messiah to be born in Bethlehem: OT (Micah 5:2) - NT (Matthew 2: 1-6, Luke 2: 4-6).

    6) Tribute paid to Messiah by great kings: OT (Psalm 72: 10-11) - NT (Matthew 2: 1-11).

    7) Messiah to be heralded by a messenger: OT (Isaiah 40:3, Malachi 3:1) - NT (Matthew 3: 1-3).

    8) Messiah to be the Son of God: OT (Psalm 2:2,7) - NT (Matthew 3:17, Luke 1: 32-33).

    9) Messiah to be anointed by the Holy Spirit: OT (Isaiah 11:2) - NT (Matthew 3: 16-17).

    I will list several others, but for the sake of time and space on here, will leave out the verses (if you would like the correlating verses from the OT and NT, just ask and I will list them for you).

    10) Galilee to be the first area of Messiah's ministry.
    11) Messiah to be meek and mild.
    12) Messiah to minister to the Gentiles.
    13) Messiah will perform miracles.
    14) Messiah to be a prophet like Moses.
    15) Messiah to enter the temple with authority.
    16) Messiah will enter Jerusalem on a donkey.
    17) Messiah to be betrayed by a friend.
    18) Messiah to be forsaken by his disciples.
    19) Messiah to experience crucifixion (long before crucifixion was invented).
    20) Messiah will be pierced.
    21) Details of Messiah's suffering and death and resulting in salvation (hundreds of years before Christ).
    22) Messiah to die in 33 AD.
    23) Casting of lots for his garments.
    24) Messiah to be raised from the dead.
    25) Messiah's resurrection.
    26) Messiah to ascend to heaven.
    27) Messiah to be at the right hand of God.
    28) Messiah, the stone which the builders rejected, to become the head cornerstone.
    Reply
    -List of Messianic Prophecies:
    1) Messiah to be the seed of Abraham: Old Testament (Genesis 12: 2-3, 18:18) - New Testament (Matthew 1: 1-2, Luke 3:34, Acts 3:25, Galatians 3:16).

    2) Messiah to be of the tribe of Judah: OT (Genesis 49:10) - NT (Matthew 1:1-2).

    3) Messiah to be of the seed of David: OT (2 Samuel 7:16, Psalm 132:11, Jeremiah 23:5, 33:15) - NT (Matthew 1:6, 22:42-45, Luke 1: 31-33, Acts 2: 29-30, Romans 1:3).

    4) Messiah to be born of a virgin: OT (Isaiah 7:14) - NT (Matthew 1: 18-25, Luke 1: 26-38).

    5) Messiah to be born in Bethlehem: OT (Micah 5:2) - NT (Matthew 2: 1-6, Luke 2: 4-6).

    6) Tribute paid to Messiah by great kings: OT (Psalm 72: 10-11) - NT (Matthew 2: 1-11).

    7) Messiah to be heralded by a messenger: OT (Isaiah 40:3, Malachi 3:1) - NT (Matthew 3: 1-3).

    8) Messiah to be the Son of God: OT (Psalm 2:2,7) - NT (Matthew 3:17, Luke 1: 32-33).

    9) Messiah to be anointed by the Holy Spirit: OT (Isaiah 11:2) - NT (Matthew 3: 16-17).

    I will list several others, but for the sake of time and space on here, will leave out the verses (if you would like the correlating verses from the OT and NT, just ask and I will list them for you).

    10) Galilee to be the first area of Messiah's ministry.
    11) Messiah to be meek and mild.
    12) Messiah to minister to the Gentiles.
    13) Messiah will perform miracles.
    14) Messiah to be a prophet like Moses.
    15) Messiah to enter the temple with authority.
    16) Messiah will enter Jerusalem on a donkey.
    17) Messiah to be betrayed by a friend.
    18) Messiah to be forsaken by his disciples.
    19) Messiah to experience crucifixion (long before crucifixion was invented).
    20) Messiah will be pierced.
    21) Details of Messiah's suffering and death and resulting in salvation (hundreds of years before Christ).
    22) Messiah to die in 33 AD.
    23) Casting of lots for his garments.
    24) Messiah to be raised from the dead.
    25) Messiah's resurrection.
    26) Messiah to ascend to heaven.
    27) Messiah to be at the right hand of God.
    28) Messiah, the stone which the builders rejected, to become the head cornerstone.
     
    EX4life
    EX4life
    All-Star
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Dec, 2009
    Posts: 13235
    Posted: Sep. 15, 2011 - 10:17 PM ET #6

    "Wouldn't anyone do what Jesus did by dying on the cross?"

    I am sure that a lot of people would lay their life down for their family, loved one, country, etc. And that is one of the biggest and most loving types of sacrifices that we as humans can make. But what Jesus Christ did for all of us on the cross was the biggest and most loving sacrifice that there ever has been, or ever will be. He did something that NONE of us can do; He put every sin that has, or ever will be committed on his shoulders, so that we can live with Him in heaven. But going to heaven is not guaranteed. We have to choose to except Christ as our Lord and Savior. 

    If you read Hebrews 10, the author gives a step by step reasoning on how Christ's new covenant improves on the old one. Instead of many sacrifices, he made only one, himself, thus gaining free and complete forgiveness for us. Chapter 10 uses an analogy to explain why Christ's death was necessary (specifically verse 17). It compares God's grace to a will. Wealth is only passed down when a death occurs; Christ's death freed the inheritance for us.

    Think for a second of a time in your life when you were blamed for something that you did not do. Remember how bad you felt? Or think of the horrible guilt you felt when you committed a really despicable sin. Now think about the most horrible crime you have ever heard about. Remember how difficult it was to even think that someone could do that to another human being, and how your heart ached for the victim and the victims family? Now think about all of the horrible crimes committed against people over the last year in just your city. It can get pretty depressing just thinking about these questions.

    Well for Jesus the physical pain of the crucifixion was bad enough, but just imagine this sinless God, who knew no sin, but who had every single sin that has ever or will ever be committed, placed squarely on His back, and then try to imagine how horrible and how terrible He must have felt. Jesus was experiencing the pain and grief of each and every murder committed throughout all of human history. EVERY single sin was being experienced by the sinless Son of God as he hung in terrible pain on the cross, because it was Jesus that was paying the penalty for each of those sins.

    Not only was Jesus going through the greatest amount of physical, emotional, and mental pain, but there are other reasons why He suffered so much, while showing how this sacrifice was the greatest sacrifice of all:

    1) The entire Jewish nation that He came to save had turned its back on Him.
    2) One of His very own, at that exact instant, was in the process of betraying Him. 
    3) His greatest supporter was soon going to deny Him 3 times.
    4) There was not a single person on the face of this planet that stood by His side. Not a single person spoke up for Him. Not one person gave comfort or spoke of encouragement. Not a single person came to his aid. 
    5) This God of love, who came to earth only to help and save mankind, knew that those plotting to kill Him had put a value of a mere 30 pieces of silver on his very existence. 

    I believe that most people would lay their life down for family, loved one, etc. But consider this for one moment; God gave up his Son to die a horrible death. His only Son. Would you do that? Would you offer the life of your child for someone else? I know I wouldn't. There are those whom I would give my life for. But ask me to make a list of those for whom I would kill my son or daughter for? The list would be empty. But God has a list; and your name is on it. In fact, God's list contains the names of every person that ever lived. For this is the endless scope of His love for us. And this is the reason for the cross. This one single act shows that God has this incredible unconditional love for each and every one of us.
    Reply
    "Wouldn't anyone do what Jesus did by dying on the cross?"

    I am sure that a lot of people would lay their life down for their family, loved one, country, etc. And that is one of the biggest and most loving types of sacrifices that we as humans can make. But what Jesus Christ did for all of us on the cross was the biggest and most loving sacrifice that there ever has been, or ever will be. He did something that NONE of us can do; He put every sin that has, or ever will be committed on his shoulders, so that we can live with Him in heaven. But going to heaven is not guaranteed. We have to choose to except Christ as our Lord and Savior. 

    If you read Hebrews 10, the author gives a step by step reasoning on how Christ's new covenant improves on the old one. Instead of many sacrifices, he made only one, himself, thus gaining free and complete forgiveness for us. Chapter 10 uses an analogy to explain why Christ's death was necessary (specifically verse 17). It compares God's grace to a will. Wealth is only passed down when a death occurs; Christ's death freed the inheritance for us.

    Think for a second of a time in your life when you were blamed for something that you did not do. Remember how bad you felt? Or think of the horrible guilt you felt when you committed a really despicable sin. Now think about the most horrible crime you have ever heard about. Remember how difficult it was to even think that someone could do that to another human being, and how your heart ached for the victim and the victims family? Now think about all of the horrible crimes committed against people over the last year in just your city. It can get pretty depressing just thinking about these questions.

    Well for Jesus the physical pain of the crucifixion was bad enough, but just imagine this sinless God, who knew no sin, but who had every single sin that has ever or will ever be committed, placed squarely on His back, and then try to imagine how horrible and how terrible He must have felt. Jesus was experiencing the pain and grief of each and every murder committed throughout all of human history. EVERY single sin was being experienced by the sinless Son of God as he hung in terrible pain on the cross, because it was Jesus that was paying the penalty for each of those sins.

    Not only was Jesus going through the greatest amount of physical, emotional, and mental pain, but there are other reasons why He suffered so much, while showing how this sacrifice was the greatest sacrifice of all:

    1) The entire Jewish nation that He came to save had turned its back on Him.
    2) One of His very own, at that exact instant, was in the process of betraying Him. 
    3) His greatest supporter was soon going to deny Him 3 times.
    4) There was not a single person on the face of this planet that stood by His side. Not a single person spoke up for Him. Not one person gave comfort or spoke of encouragement. Not a single person came to his aid. 
    5) This God of love, who came to earth only to help and save mankind, knew that those plotting to kill Him had put a value of a mere 30 pieces of silver on his very existence. 

    I believe that most people would lay their life down for family, loved one, etc. But consider this for one moment; God gave up his Son to die a horrible death. His only Son. Would you do that? Would you offer the life of your child for someone else? I know I wouldn't. There are those whom I would give my life for. But ask me to make a list of those for whom I would kill my son or daughter for? The list would be empty. But God has a list; and your name is on it. In fact, God's list contains the names of every person that ever lived. For this is the endless scope of His love for us. And this is the reason for the cross. This one single act shows that God has this incredible unconditional love for each and every one of us.
     
    EX4life
    EX4life
    All-Star
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Dec, 2009
    Posts: 13235
    Posted: Sep. 15, 2011 - 10:18 PM ET #7

    "If 5 guys went up a mountain and wrote a book in today's society, with no proof of anything, and wrote a book of invisible men, would you believe it?"

    Most likely not. But the Bible was not written in such a way. I might say some of the same things as I said towards the beginning, pertaining to the truth value of the Bible, but I will probably say some of the same things here as well.

    -Over 25,000 sites have now been discovered that pertain to the Bible. As a comparison, the religion of Mormonism makes many claims as to history, especially about the Americas. Yet none of its claims have ever been or can be verified by archaeology, seriously damaging its credibility. 
    -I have stated many of the prophesies that were fulfilled in the Bible, years in advance. The Bible contains page after page of history written in advance. The skeptic must come to grips with this evidence. 
    -Over 24,000 copies or portions of the NT exist. These are dated from 100-300 years after the originals. 
                -NT: 24,000+ copies - 100-300 year gap
                -Caesar: 10 copies - 1000 year gap.
                -Tacitus: 20 copies - 1000 year gap.
                -Plato: 7 copies - 1200 year gap.
    -F.F. Bruce said: "There is no body of ancient literature in the world which enjoys such a wealth of good attestation as the New Testament."
    -William F. Albright: "Thanks to the Qumran discoveries, the New Testament proves to be in fact what it was formerly believed to be: the teaching of Christ and his immediate followers circa. 25 and circa. 80 AD."
    -Testimony of the NT authors themselves:
            -Luke 1: 1-3, 3:1
            -John 21:24
            -Acts 26: 24-26
            -2 Peter 1:16
            -1 John 1:3
    -Both liberal and conservative scholars in recent years have moved to the view that ALL of the NT was written prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
            -Liberal scholar John A.T. Robinson's book Redating the New Testament.
            -Conservative scholar Kenneth Gentry's book Before Jerusalem Fell.
    -Substantial other evidences of NT being written between 40-60 AD in Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics.
    -Reliability of the Old Testament:
            -Jewish scholars performed "unbelievable" care in copying and preserving Scripture.
            -The Dead Sea Scrolls found in 1947 are dated from the third century BC to the first century AD. These manuscripts predate by 1000 years the previous oldest manuscripts. They represent every OT book except Esther (as well as non-biblical writings). There is word for word identity in more than 95% of the cases, and the 5% variation consists mostly of slips of the pen and spelling. 

    -Archaeological Evidence: sooooo many examples that prove the reliability of the Bible. If you would like examples, please let me know.

    -Statistical Evidence: The Bible contains 66 books, written by about 40 different writers, over the course of 1600 years, on 3 different continents, in 3 different languages, on thousands of different subjects, with one central theme - God's redemption of mankind from sin won for the whole world by the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

    -Logical Consistency of the Bible: Life after death in heaven or hell may be, in one sense, difficult to believe, but it is entirely internally consistent with the rest of the Bible. If there is a truly just God, justice is only certain if there is ultimate justice. The non-biblical view, in contrast, is inconsistent when it holds that we came from nowhere and go to nowhere, but life is filled with meaning in between. 
           -The statement "there are no moral absolutes" contains 2 mistakes:
            1) The declaration itself is an absolute statement, thus it contradicts itself.
            2) A person cannot live his life without moral absolutes. Examples: fairness vs. unfairness, kindness vs. hatred.
            -For another example, the doctrine of original sin is consistent with the need for a savior.
            -If there is an omnipotent God, the miracle of creation, as well as other biblical miracles, is very plausible. 

    -A logical thought progression to make sense of the Christian faith:
    Is there a God? If so,
    1) Is it logical to believe that God knows what is going on down here? If so,
    2) Is it reasonable to believe that He cares about what is going on down here? If so, 
    3) Is it reasonable to believe that He cares enough to communicate His concerns to us? If so,
    4) How might He communicate truth to us? Can the Bible demonstrate that it is indeed God's Word?
    Reply
    "If 5 guys went up a mountain and wrote a book in today's society, with no proof of anything, and wrote a book of invisible men, would you believe it?"

    Most likely not. But the Bible was not written in such a way. I might say some of the same things as I said towards the beginning, pertaining to the truth value of the Bible, but I will probably say some of the same things here as well.

    -Over 25,000 sites have now been discovered that pertain to the Bible. As a comparison, the religion of Mormonism makes many claims as to history, especially about the Americas. Yet none of its claims have ever been or can be verified by archaeology, seriously damaging its credibility. 
    -I have stated many of the prophesies that were fulfilled in the Bible, years in advance. The Bible contains page after page of history written in advance. The skeptic must come to grips with this evidence. 
    -Over 24,000 copies or portions of the NT exist. These are dated from 100-300 years after the originals. 
                -NT: 24,000+ copies - 100-300 year gap
                -Caesar: 10 copies - 1000 year gap.
                -Tacitus: 20 copies - 1000 year gap.
                -Plato: 7 copies - 1200 year gap.
    -F.F. Bruce said: "There is no body of ancient literature in the world which enjoys such a wealth of good attestation as the New Testament."
    -William F. Albright: "Thanks to the Qumran discoveries, the New Testament proves to be in fact what it was formerly believed to be: the teaching of Christ and his immediate followers circa. 25 and circa. 80 AD."
    -Testimony of the NT authors themselves:
            -Luke 1: 1-3, 3:1
            -John 21:24
            -Acts 26: 24-26
            -2 Peter 1:16
            -1 John 1:3
    -Both liberal and conservative scholars in recent years have moved to the view that ALL of the NT was written prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
            -Liberal scholar John A.T. Robinson's book Redating the New Testament.
            -Conservative scholar Kenneth Gentry's book Before Jerusalem Fell.
    -Substantial other evidences of NT being written between 40-60 AD in Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics.
    -Reliability of the Old Testament:
            -Jewish scholars performed "unbelievable" care in copying and preserving Scripture.
            -The Dead Sea Scrolls found in 1947 are dated from the third century BC to the first century AD. These manuscripts predate by 1000 years the previous oldest manuscripts. They represent every OT book except Esther (as well as non-biblical writings). There is word for word identity in more than 95% of the cases, and the 5% variation consists mostly of slips of the pen and spelling. 

    -Archaeological Evidence: sooooo many examples that prove the reliability of the Bible. If you would like examples, please let me know.

    -Statistical Evidence: The Bible contains 66 books, written by about 40 different writers, over the course of 1600 years, on 3 different continents, in 3 different languages, on thousands of different subjects, with one central theme - God's redemption of mankind from sin won for the whole world by the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

    -Logical Consistency of the Bible: Life after death in heaven or hell may be, in one sense, difficult to believe, but it is entirely internally consistent with the rest of the Bible. If there is a truly just God, justice is only certain if there is ultimate justice. The non-biblical view, in contrast, is inconsistent when it holds that we came from nowhere and go to nowhere, but life is filled with meaning in between. 
           -The statement "there are no moral absolutes" contains 2 mistakes:
            1) The declaration itself is an absolute statement, thus it contradicts itself.
            2) A person cannot live his life without moral absolutes. Examples: fairness vs. unfairness, kindness vs. hatred.
            -For another example, the doctrine of original sin is consistent with the need for a savior.
            -If there is an omnipotent God, the miracle of creation, as well as other biblical miracles, is very plausible. 

    -A logical thought progression to make sense of the Christian faith:
    Is there a God? If so,
    1) Is it logical to believe that God knows what is going on down here? If so,
    2) Is it reasonable to believe that He cares about what is going on down here? If so, 
    3) Is it reasonable to believe that He cares enough to communicate His concerns to us? If so,
    4) How might He communicate truth to us? Can the Bible demonstrate that it is indeed God's Word?
     
    EX4life
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    Posted: Sep. 15, 2011 - 10:18 PM ET #8

    "Jesus was human... so therefore he cannot be God or the Son of God"

    Even given the evidence of the resurrection, many still question how Jesus can be human, and yet still be the Son of God.

    -Jesus clearly claimed to be the Son of God, and we see that in:John 2: 18-22, 5: 17-23, 8:23, 8:58, 10: 25-38, 12: 44-45, 13:13, 19-20, 14: 6-11, 17:5, 
    Matthew 10:40, 28: 18-19, 
    Mark 14: 60-62, 
    Luke 5: 20-26, 6:5, 10:16, and 
    Revelation 22: 12-13.

    In John chapter 5 alone, Jesus makes 6 claims to equality with God; He is equal with God in his: 
    1) Person
    2) Works
    3) Power and sovereignty
    4) Judgement
    5) Honor
    6) and that He has resurrection power.
    -It should be noted that the person clearly understood Jesus' claim to deity, as they recognized that Jesus was claiming attributes of God in the Old Testament (John 19:7). 
    -Over 300 OT prophesies speak of the coming Messiah ("Christ") and describe him as a man that stands above all other men and would have divine attributes.
    -In Matthew 26:64, Jesus is making a claim of deity and is even clearer as he says that he will be seen "sitting on the right hand of God and coming on the clouds of heaven." In Matthew 24: 30-31, Jesus uses similar language about his Second Coming on clouds. The person absolutely understood that it was only God himself who came on clouds - often a motif in the OT about God's coming in judgement against those who disobeyed. 
    -Mark 12: 1-9, Jesus tells a parable of the wicked tenants of the vineyard. Here Jesus correlates Israel was the vineyard, God as the owner, the figure of a son, etc. The parable tells us that Jesus thought of himself as God's only Son, distinct from all other prophets, God's final messenger, and even the heir of Israel itself. So this parable discloses to us that Jesus believed and taught that he was the only Son of God.
    -In Luke 12: 8-9, Jesus claims the authority to stand in God's place and speak to us and bring us to salvation. In John 17:3, Jesus places himself and the Father together as the source of eternal life, affirming his own deity.
                -Given such claims, there are 3 possibilities as to His identity. Either Jesus was a (a) liar, (b) lunatic, or (c) Lord.
    (A) If Jesus is a liar, then He has deceived more people than any other human. He could not be the greatest liar that ever lived, and also be a great moral teacher. His character is evidence of a person of absolute virtue and integrity. His instruction was pure and profound. He was not a liar.
    (B) O. Quentin Hyder, a psychiatrist in New York City, analyzed the records of Jesus' behavior, personality and relationships for symptoms of psychiatric disorders. He said that the evidence does not support the notion that Jesus was a lunatic. Hyder concluded by saying, "A person is free to maintain that Jesus, out of honest delusion, made His claim to deity. But if one takes this position, he does so without any psychological evidence in its support and, indeed, in spite of considerable evidence to the contrary."
    -Jesus lived a sinless, perfect life. His closest companions confirmed this:
    1 Peter 1: 18-19, 2: 21-24,
    2 Corinthians 5:21,
    Hebrews 4:15, 7: 26-27,
    1 John 2:1, 3:5.
    -Even His enemies, those who betrayed and crucified Him, acknowledged His perfect life:
    Matthew 27: 3-4,
    Luke 23: 14-15,
    John 8:46.
    -Jesus' words, His character, and His influence all attest that Jesus was more than a mortal man.
    -Jesus' sinless life proves he was from God and was the Messiah as was predicted in the Old Testament (Isaiah 53:9). 
    -Jesus has all of the attributes of deity, including
    1) Omnipotence - Matthew 28:18,
    2) Omniscience - John 1:48,
    3) Omnipresence - Matthew 18:20.

    -Jesus did the works of deity, including
    1) Creation - John 1:3,
    2) Raising the dead - John 11: 43-44,
    3) and is assigned power to judge the living and the dead - 2 Thessalonians 1: 7-8.

    -And He was worshiped as deity - Matthew 14:33.
    Reply
    "Jesus was human... so therefore he cannot be God or the Son of God"

    Even given the evidence of the resurrection, many still question how Jesus can be human, and yet still be the Son of God.

    -Jesus clearly claimed to be the Son of God, and we see that in:John 2: 18-22, 5: 17-23, 8:23, 8:58, 10: 25-38, 12: 44-45, 13:13, 19-20, 14: 6-11, 17:5, 
    Matthew 10:40, 28: 18-19, 
    Mark 14: 60-62, 
    Luke 5: 20-26, 6:5, 10:16, and 
    Revelation 22: 12-13.

    In John chapter 5 alone, Jesus makes 6 claims to equality with God; He is equal with God in his: 
    1) Person
    2) Works
    3) Power and sovereignty
    4) Judgement
    5) Honor
    6) and that He has resurrection power.
    -It should be noted that the person clearly understood Jesus' claim to deity, as they recognized that Jesus was claiming attributes of God in the Old Testament (John 19:7). 
    -Over 300 OT prophesies speak of the coming Messiah ("Christ") and describe him as a man that stands above all other men and would have divine attributes.
    -In Matthew 26:64, Jesus is making a claim of deity and is even clearer as he says that he will be seen "sitting on the right hand of God and coming on the clouds of heaven." In Matthew 24: 30-31, Jesus uses similar language about his Second Coming on clouds. The person absolutely understood that it was only God himself who came on clouds - often a motif in the OT about God's coming in judgement against those who disobeyed. 
    -Mark 12: 1-9, Jesus tells a parable of the wicked tenants of the vineyard. Here Jesus correlates Israel was the vineyard, God as the owner, the figure of a son, etc. The parable tells us that Jesus thought of himself as God's only Son, distinct from all other prophets, God's final messenger, and even the heir of Israel itself. So this parable discloses to us that Jesus believed and taught that he was the only Son of God.
    -In Luke 12: 8-9, Jesus claims the authority to stand in God's place and speak to us and bring us to salvation. In John 17:3, Jesus places himself and the Father together as the source of eternal life, affirming his own deity.
                -Given such claims, there are 3 possibilities as to His identity. Either Jesus was a (a) liar, (b) lunatic, or (c) Lord.
    (A) If Jesus is a liar, then He has deceived more people than any other human. He could not be the greatest liar that ever lived, and also be a great moral teacher. His character is evidence of a person of absolute virtue and integrity. His instruction was pure and profound. He was not a liar.
    (B) O. Quentin Hyder, a psychiatrist in New York City, analyzed the records of Jesus' behavior, personality and relationships for symptoms of psychiatric disorders. He said that the evidence does not support the notion that Jesus was a lunatic. Hyder concluded by saying, "A person is free to maintain that Jesus, out of honest delusion, made His claim to deity. But if one takes this position, he does so without any psychological evidence in its support and, indeed, in spite of considerable evidence to the contrary."
    -Jesus lived a sinless, perfect life. His closest companions confirmed this:
    1 Peter 1: 18-19, 2: 21-24,
    2 Corinthians 5:21,
    Hebrews 4:15, 7: 26-27,
    1 John 2:1, 3:5.
    -Even His enemies, those who betrayed and crucified Him, acknowledged His perfect life:
    Matthew 27: 3-4,
    Luke 23: 14-15,
    John 8:46.
    -Jesus' words, His character, and His influence all attest that Jesus was more than a mortal man.
    -Jesus' sinless life proves he was from God and was the Messiah as was predicted in the Old Testament (Isaiah 53:9). 
    -Jesus has all of the attributes of deity, including
    1) Omnipotence - Matthew 28:18,
    2) Omniscience - John 1:48,
    3) Omnipresence - Matthew 18:20.

    -Jesus did the works of deity, including
    1) Creation - John 1:3,
    2) Raising the dead - John 11: 43-44,
    3) and is assigned power to judge the living and the dead - 2 Thessalonians 1: 7-8.

    -And He was worshiped as deity - Matthew 14:33.
     
    EX4life
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    Posted: Sep. 15, 2011 - 10:18 PM ET #9

    If Jesus was who He said He was, you and I are under judgment. If we say He was not God, we must somehow reconcile Jesus' message, the evidence, and much of history. Historically, we can be as certain of what we read about Christ in the Bible as almost any other recorded event. Refusing to believe in Jesus is not because of lack of evidence. Refusing to believe can only be because we thumb our nose at God, or that we are unwilling to change. 

    -Why should the Christian hope of eschatological resurrection appear to modern man as nothing more than wishful thinking? The answer lies in the Christian conviction that a man has been proleptically raised by God from the dead as the forerunner and examplar of our own eschatological resurrection. That man was Jesus of Nazareth, and His historical resurrection from the dead constitutes the factual foundation upon which the Christian hope is based.
            -According to Galatians 1:18, Paul was in Jerusalem three years after his conversion, during which he conferred with Peter and James over a 2 week period. Since Paul was converted in AD 33, this means that the list of witnesses goes back to within the first 5 years after Jesus' death. Thus, it is idle to dismiss these appearances and legendary. 

    1) Appearance to Peter: Galatians 1:8, Luke 24:34. As a result, even the most skeptical NT critics agree that Peter experienced something which he called an appearance of Jesus alive from the dead.
    2) Appearance to the Twelve: Luke 24: 36-43, John 20: 19-20. The most notable feature of these stories is the traditions passed on by Luke and John of the physical demonstrations of Jesus showing His wounds and eating with the disciples. The purpose of the physical demonstrations is to show two things: first, that Jesus was raised physically and second, that he was the same Jesus who had been crucified. Thus, they served to demonstrate both corporeality and continuity of the resurrection body. There can be little doubt that this occurred, because it is vouched for by Paul, who had personal contact with the 12 disciples, and described by both Luke and John. 
    3) Appearance to the 500 brethren: Jesus appeared to 500 people at one time! This would make one inclined to be rather skeptical of this appearance, but it comes from old information which Paul had received and Paul himself apparently had personal contact with these people, since he knew that some had died. 
    4) Appearance to James: This is one of the most amazing appearances of all. James, Jesus' younger brother (as well as Jesus' other younger brothers), apparently did not believe Jesus was the Messiah, a prophet, or anybody special (Mark 3:21, 31-5, John 7: 1-10). But after the resurrection, Jesus' brothers unexpectedly pop up in the Christian fellowship in the upper room in Jerusalem (Acts 1:14). Not only James, but Jesus' other brothers became believers and were active in Christian preaching (1 Corinthians 9:5). During Jesus' lifetime, his brothers did not believe Him. It is equally certain that they became ardent Christians active in the church. Can there be any doubt that the reason for this remarkable transformation is to be found in the fact that "then he appeared to James"? Even the skeptical New Testament critic Hans Grass calls the conversion of James one of the surest proofs of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
    5) Appearance to all of the apostles: Acts 1: 21-22. Once again, the facility of this appearance is guaranteed by Paul's personal contact with the apostles themselves.
    6) Appearance to Saul of Tarsus: "last of all," says Paul, "he appeared also to me." The story of Jesus' appearance to Saul of Tarsus (or Paul) just outside of Damascus is related in Acts 9: 1-9 and is later told again twice. That this event actually occurred is established beyond a shadow of a doubt by Paul's references to it in his own letters. This event changed Paul's whole life. He was a Rabbi, a Pharisee, a respected Jewish leader. He hated the Christian heresy and did everything he could to stamp it out. He was even responsible for the execution of Christian believers. Then suddenly he gave up everything. He left his position as a respected Jewish leader and became a Christian missionary. He entered a life of poverty, labor, and suffering. He was whipped, beaten, stoned and left for dead, shipwrecked 3 times, in constant danger, deprivation, and anxiety. Finally, he made the ultimate sacrifice and was martyred for his faith in Rome. And it was all because that day outside Damascus, he saw "Jesus our Lord" (1 Corinthians 9:1).
    Reply
    If Jesus was who He said He was, you and I are under judgment. If we say He was not God, we must somehow reconcile Jesus' message, the evidence, and much of history. Historically, we can be as certain of what we read about Christ in the Bible as almost any other recorded event. Refusing to believe in Jesus is not because of lack of evidence. Refusing to believe can only be because we thumb our nose at God, or that we are unwilling to change. 

    -Why should the Christian hope of eschatological resurrection appear to modern man as nothing more than wishful thinking? The answer lies in the Christian conviction that a man has been proleptically raised by God from the dead as the forerunner and examplar of our own eschatological resurrection. That man was Jesus of Nazareth, and His historical resurrection from the dead constitutes the factual foundation upon which the Christian hope is based.
            -According to Galatians 1:18, Paul was in Jerusalem three years after his conversion, during which he conferred with Peter and James over a 2 week period. Since Paul was converted in AD 33, this means that the list of witnesses goes back to within the first 5 years after Jesus' death. Thus, it is idle to dismiss these appearances and legendary. 

    1) Appearance to Peter: Galatians 1:8, Luke 24:34. As a result, even the most skeptical NT critics agree that Peter experienced something which he called an appearance of Jesus alive from the dead.
    2) Appearance to the Twelve: Luke 24: 36-43, John 20: 19-20. The most notable feature of these stories is the traditions passed on by Luke and John of the physical demonstrations of Jesus showing His wounds and eating with the disciples. The purpose of the physical demonstrations is to show two things: first, that Jesus was raised physically and second, that he was the same Jesus who had been crucified. Thus, they served to demonstrate both corporeality and continuity of the resurrection body. There can be little doubt that this occurred, because it is vouched for by Paul, who had personal contact with the 12 disciples, and described by both Luke and John. 
    3) Appearance to the 500 brethren: Jesus appeared to 500 people at one time! This would make one inclined to be rather skeptical of this appearance, but it comes from old information which Paul had received and Paul himself apparently had personal contact with these people, since he knew that some had died. 
    4) Appearance to James: This is one of the most amazing appearances of all. James, Jesus' younger brother (as well as Jesus' other younger brothers), apparently did not believe Jesus was the Messiah, a prophet, or anybody special (Mark 3:21, 31-5, John 7: 1-10). But after the resurrection, Jesus' brothers unexpectedly pop up in the Christian fellowship in the upper room in Jerusalem (Acts 1:14). Not only James, but Jesus' other brothers became believers and were active in Christian preaching (1 Corinthians 9:5). During Jesus' lifetime, his brothers did not believe Him. It is equally certain that they became ardent Christians active in the church. Can there be any doubt that the reason for this remarkable transformation is to be found in the fact that "then he appeared to James"? Even the skeptical New Testament critic Hans Grass calls the conversion of James one of the surest proofs of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
    5) Appearance to all of the apostles: Acts 1: 21-22. Once again, the facility of this appearance is guaranteed by Paul's personal contact with the apostles themselves.
    6) Appearance to Saul of Tarsus: "last of all," says Paul, "he appeared also to me." The story of Jesus' appearance to Saul of Tarsus (or Paul) just outside of Damascus is related in Acts 9: 1-9 and is later told again twice. That this event actually occurred is established beyond a shadow of a doubt by Paul's references to it in his own letters. This event changed Paul's whole life. He was a Rabbi, a Pharisee, a respected Jewish leader. He hated the Christian heresy and did everything he could to stamp it out. He was even responsible for the execution of Christian believers. Then suddenly he gave up everything. He left his position as a respected Jewish leader and became a Christian missionary. He entered a life of poverty, labor, and suffering. He was whipped, beaten, stoned and left for dead, shipwrecked 3 times, in constant danger, deprivation, and anxiety. Finally, he made the ultimate sacrifice and was martyred for his faith in Rome. And it was all because that day outside Damascus, he saw "Jesus our Lord" (1 Corinthians 9:1).
     
    EX4life
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    Posted: Sep. 15, 2011 - 10:19 PM ET #10

    -We can try to explain these appearances away as hallucinations if we like, but we cannot deny that they occurred. According to Norman Perrin, the late NT critic of the University of Chicago: "The more we study the tradition with regard to the appearances, the firmer the rock begins to appear upon which they are based." This conclusion is virtually indisputable. 

    -The empty tomb:
    1) The historical reliability of the burial story supports the empty tomb. Jesus' burial is described in the earliest gospel (Mark 15: 42-47). If the burial account is accurate, then the site of Jesus' grave was known to person and Christian alike. In that care, it is a very short inference to historicity of the empty tomb. For is Jesus had not risen and the burial site were known: 
           -The disciples could never have believed in the resurrection of Jesus. For a first century person the idea of a man might be raised from the dead while his body remained in the tomb was simply a contradiction in terms. 
           -Even if the disciples had believed in the resurrection of Jesus, it is doubtful they would have generated any following. So long as the body was interred inside the tomb, a Christian movement founded on belief in the resurrection of the dead man would have been an impossible folly.
           -The Jewish authorities would have exposed the whole affair. The quickest and surest answer to the proclamation of the resurrection of Jesus would have been to simply to point to his grave on the hillside. 
    -For these 3 reasons, the accuracy of the burial story supports the historicity of the empty tomb. 
    2) Paul's testimony supports the fact of the empty tomb.
    3) The empty tomb story is part of the pre-Markan passion story and therefore is very old (Mark 16: 1-8). The fact that Mark's gospel is the earliest of our gospel's, that in itself makes it quite old. Paul's account of the Last Supper in 1 Corinthians 11: 23-5 presupposes the Markan account. The pre-Markan passion story never refers to the high priest by name. If I said "The President is hosting a dinner at the White House," everybody would know who I was talking about because it is the man that currently holds office. Similarly, the pre-Markan passion story refers to the "high priest" as if he were still in power. Since Caiaphas held office from AD 18-37, this means at the latest the pre-Markan source must come from within seven years after Jesus' death. This source thus goes back to within the first few years of the Jerusalem fellowship and is therefore an ancient and reliable source of historical information.
    4) The story is simple and lacks legendary development. The empty tomb story is uncolored by the theological and apologetical motifs that would be characteristic of a later legendary account. 
    5) The tomb was probably discovered by women: To understand this point, one has to understand two facts about the role of women in Jewish society.
              -Women occupied a low rung on the Jewish social ladder. 
              -The testimony of women was regarded as so worthless that they were not even permitted to serve as legal witnesses in a court of law. In light of these facts, how remarkable must it seem that it is women who are the discoverers of Jesus' empty tomb. Any later legend would certainly have made the male disciples to discover the empty tomb. The fact that women, whose testimony was worthless, rather than men, are the chief witness to the empty tomb is most plausibly accounted for by the fact that, like it or not, they were the discoverers of the empty tomb and the gospels accurately recorded this.
    6) The earliest Jewish polemic presupposes the empty tomb. In Matthew 28, the polemic asserted that the disciples stole away the body. The Christians responded to this by reciting the story of the guard at the tomb, and the polemic in turn charged that the guard fell asleep. The noteworthy feature of this whole dispute is not the historicity of the guards but rather the presupposition of both parties that the body was missing. The earliest Jewish response to the proclamation of the resurrection was an attempt to explain away the empty tomb. Thus, the evidence of the adversaries of the disciples provides evidence in support of the empty tomb. 
    -D.H. van Daalen, "It is extremely difficult to object to the empty tomb on historical grounds; those who deny it do so on the basis of theological or philosophical assumptions."
    -The origin of Christianity: Even the most skeptical scholars admit that the earliest disciples at least believed that Jesus had been raised from the dead. Indeed, they pinned nearly everything on it. Without belief in the resurrection of Jesus, Christianity could have never come into being. The crucifixion would have remained the final tragedy in the hapless life of Jesus. The origin of Christianity hinges on the belief of these earliest disciples that Jesus had risen from the dead.
    Reply
    -We can try to explain these appearances away as hallucinations if we like, but we cannot deny that they occurred. According to Norman Perrin, the late NT critic of the University of Chicago: "The more we study the tradition with regard to the appearances, the firmer the rock begins to appear upon which they are based." This conclusion is virtually indisputable. 

    -The empty tomb:
    1) The historical reliability of the burial story supports the empty tomb. Jesus' burial is described in the earliest gospel (Mark 15: 42-47). If the burial account is accurate, then the site of Jesus' grave was known to person and Christian alike. In that care, it is a very short inference to historicity of the empty tomb. For is Jesus had not risen and the burial site were known: 
           -The disciples could never have believed in the resurrection of Jesus. For a first century person the idea of a man might be raised from the dead while his body remained in the tomb was simply a contradiction in terms. 
           -Even if the disciples had believed in the resurrection of Jesus, it is doubtful they would have generated any following. So long as the body was interred inside the tomb, a Christian movement founded on belief in the resurrection of the dead man would have been an impossible folly.
           -The Jewish authorities would have exposed the whole affair. The quickest and surest answer to the proclamation of the resurrection of Jesus would have been to simply to point to his grave on the hillside. 
    -For these 3 reasons, the accuracy of the burial story supports the historicity of the empty tomb. 
    2) Paul's testimony supports the fact of the empty tomb.
    3) The empty tomb story is part of the pre-Markan passion story and therefore is very old (Mark 16: 1-8). The fact that Mark's gospel is the earliest of our gospel's, that in itself makes it quite old. Paul's account of the Last Supper in 1 Corinthians 11: 23-5 presupposes the Markan account. The pre-Markan passion story never refers to the high priest by name. If I said "The President is hosting a dinner at the White House," everybody would know who I was talking about because it is the man that currently holds office. Similarly, the pre-Markan passion story refers to the "high priest" as if he were still in power. Since Caiaphas held office from AD 18-37, this means at the latest the pre-Markan source must come from within seven years after Jesus' death. This source thus goes back to within the first few years of the Jerusalem fellowship and is therefore an ancient and reliable source of historical information.
    4) The story is simple and lacks legendary development. The empty tomb story is uncolored by the theological and apologetical motifs that would be characteristic of a later legendary account. 
    5) The tomb was probably discovered by women: To understand this point, one has to understand two facts about the role of women in Jewish society.
              -Women occupied a low rung on the Jewish social ladder. 
              -The testimony of women was regarded as so worthless that they were not even permitted to serve as legal witnesses in a court of law. In light of these facts, how remarkable must it seem that it is women who are the discoverers of Jesus' empty tomb. Any later legend would certainly have made the male disciples to discover the empty tomb. The fact that women, whose testimony was worthless, rather than men, are the chief witness to the empty tomb is most plausibly accounted for by the fact that, like it or not, they were the discoverers of the empty tomb and the gospels accurately recorded this.
    6) The earliest Jewish polemic presupposes the empty tomb. In Matthew 28, the polemic asserted that the disciples stole away the body. The Christians responded to this by reciting the story of the guard at the tomb, and the polemic in turn charged that the guard fell asleep. The noteworthy feature of this whole dispute is not the historicity of the guards but rather the presupposition of both parties that the body was missing. The earliest Jewish response to the proclamation of the resurrection was an attempt to explain away the empty tomb. Thus, the evidence of the adversaries of the disciples provides evidence in support of the empty tomb. 
    -D.H. van Daalen, "It is extremely difficult to object to the empty tomb on historical grounds; those who deny it do so on the basis of theological or philosophical assumptions."
    -The origin of Christianity: Even the most skeptical scholars admit that the earliest disciples at least believed that Jesus had been raised from the dead. Indeed, they pinned nearly everything on it. Without belief in the resurrection of Jesus, Christianity could have never come into being. The crucifixion would have remained the final tragedy in the hapless life of Jesus. The origin of Christianity hinges on the belief of these earliest disciples that Jesus had risen from the dead.
     
    EX4life
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    Posted: Sep. 15, 2011 - 10:19 PM ET #11

    I surely hope that this extensive response will help everybody to better understand and to answer any questions or skepticism you may have. God loves every single person on the face of the earth, and He showed us that by giving us His only Son, who died and took our punishment on His shoulders (something we could never do), so that we might live with Him in heaven. 

    In the very least, consider this: if you are right about life after death, then there is nothing to lose. Were all going no where anyways, so let's live it up here on earth, without any punishment. But if I am right, then we are all under judgment, and will be judged in front of God after we die. In other words, we have EVERYTHING to lose. I care about everybody as much as I can, even if I do not know you. That is why I took a lot of time to type this up. If you have any questions, please ask them; whether its in this thread or through pm. 
    Reply
    I surely hope that this extensive response will help everybody to better understand and to answer any questions or skepticism you may have. God loves every single person on the face of the earth, and He showed us that by giving us His only Son, who died and took our punishment on His shoulders (something we could never do), so that we might live with Him in heaven. 

    In the very least, consider this: if you are right about life after death, then there is nothing to lose. Were all going no where anyways, so let's live it up here on earth, without any punishment. But if I am right, then we are all under judgment, and will be judged in front of God after we die. In other words, we have EVERYTHING to lose. I care about everybody as much as I can, even if I do not know you. That is why I took a lot of time to type this up. If you have any questions, please ask them; whether its in this thread or through pm. 
     
    slikstiks99
    slikstiks99
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    Posted: Sep. 15, 2011 - 10:52 PM ET #12

    God loves you? Never heard that one before.

    Nobody cares buddy
    Reply
    God loves you? Never heard that one before.

    Nobody cares buddy
     
    SALTY
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    Posted: Sep. 15, 2011 - 10:56 PM ET #13

    Footsteps is the biggest bullshit ever
    Reply
    Footsteps is the biggest bullshit ever
     
    SYSTEM
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    Posted: Sep. 15, 2011 - 10:58 PM ET #14

    Quote Originally Posted by slikstiks99:

    God loves you? Never heard that one before.

    Nobody cares buddy

    Same old rhetoric  sjd #2  love how he ends with what if your wrong
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by slikstiks99:

    God loves you? Never heard that one before.

    Nobody cares buddy

    Same old rhetoric  sjd #2  love how he ends with what if your wrong
     
    CountNo_Account
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    Posted: Sep. 15, 2011 - 11:41 PM ET #15

    I ate at Taco Bell today.....
    Reply
    I ate at Taco Bell today.....
     
    Chimpo
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    Posted: Sep. 16, 2011 - 12:42 AM ET #16

    I have one question as a non christian/catholic.

    Question   WHO?
    Who came up with the idea to make a tool of execution ( CROSS)  as symbol / something to pray / worship / Advertise for ?   To me that is very bold / weird / strange thing to pray at. 



    Reply
    I have one question as a non christian/catholic.

    Question   WHO?
    Who came up with the idea to make a tool of execution ( CROSS)  as symbol / something to pray / worship / Advertise for ?   To me that is very bold / weird / strange thing to pray at. 



     
    EX4life
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    Posted: Sep. 16, 2011 - 12:54 AM ET #17

    Chimpo, can you elaborate a little bit on what you mean please? I am not 100% sure on what the question is. The cross represents and reminds us of the sacrifice Jesus made for all of us. The cross is not something to worship to, or make an idol of. I am just not sure of what the question is. Thanks for commenting and hope I can understand the question better 
    Reply
    Chimpo, can you elaborate a little bit on what you mean please? I am not 100% sure on what the question is. The cross represents and reminds us of the sacrifice Jesus made for all of us. The cross is not something to worship to, or make an idol of. I am just not sure of what the question is. Thanks for commenting and hope I can understand the question better 
     
    Chimpo
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    Posted: Sep. 16, 2011 - 1:13 AM ET #18

    Sorry if it didn't come out clear.   I  have seen a cross as necklace, pendant, rooftop of church, on top of gravestone..etc  and people kiss on those .   So i am thinking that is the symbol of religion.  And to make that( cross = execution tool of Jesus) as symbol is very strange idea to say the least.  So i am very curious to find out who is responsible to come up with that idea.  If you think about it rationally , that is very out of box thinking to it.  I mean if they had electric chair back then and he died on that , it would ve been electric chair on top of church. Hope this will make my question clear.  Who came up with that idea?
    Reply
    Sorry if it didn't come out clear.   I  have seen a cross as necklace, pendant, rooftop of church, on top of gravestone..etc  and people kiss on those .   So i am thinking that is the symbol of religion.  And to make that( cross = execution tool of Jesus) as symbol is very strange idea to say the least.  So i am very curious to find out who is responsible to come up with that idea.  If you think about it rationally , that is very out of box thinking to it.  I mean if they had electric chair back then and he died on that , it would ve been electric chair on top of church. Hope this will make my question clear.  Who came up with that idea?
     
    EricLinny
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    Posted: Sep. 16, 2011 - 2:00 AM ET #19

    I just passed gas and it smelled like fettuccine Alfredo 
    Reply
    I just passed gas and it smelled like fettuccine Alfredo 
     
    CMo256
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    Posted: Sep. 16, 2011 - 2:10 AM ET #20

    Quote Originally Posted by EX4life:

    I surely hope that this extensive response will help everybody to better understand and to answer any questions or skepticism you may have. God loves every single person on the face of the earth, and He showed us that by giving us His only Son, who died and took our punishment on His shoulders (something we could never do), so that we might live with Him in heaven. 

    In the very least, consider this: if you are right about life after death, then there is nothing to lose. Were all going no where anyways, so let's live it up here on earth, without any punishment. But if I am right, then we are all under judgment, and will be judged in front of God after we die. In other words, we have EVERYTHING to lose. I care about everybody as much as I can, even if I do not know you. That is why I took a lot of time to type this up. If you have any questions, please ask them; whether its in this thread or through pm. 



    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by EX4life:

    I surely hope that this extensive response will help everybody to better understand and to answer any questions or skepticism you may have. God loves every single person on the face of the earth, and He showed us that by giving us His only Son, who died and took our punishment on His shoulders (something we could never do), so that we might live with Him in heaven. 

    In the very least, consider this: if you are right about life after death, then there is nothing to lose. Were all going no where anyways, so let's live it up here on earth, without any punishment. But if I am right, then we are all under judgment, and will be judged in front of God after we die. In other words, we have EVERYTHING to lose. I care about everybody as much as I can, even if I do not know you. That is why I took a lot of time to type this up. If you have any questions, please ask them; whether its in this thread or through pm. 



     
    EX4life
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    Posted: Sep. 16, 2011 - 2:34 AM ET #21

    Chimpo, again, thanks for the comment. That is a good question. Hopefully I can answer this thoroughly. 


    Early Christianity had little knowledge of a cross, other than that it was a symbol of the old Paganism. The earliest depictions of the Christian savior were as the Good Shepard, carrying a lamb or a ram. In 707 AD, the Council of Constantinople decreed that the lamb, or ram, was to be replaced by a cross with a man nailed to it. 

    From Biblical teaching concerning the cross in Christianity, we can conclude a few things:

    1) That the substitutionary death of Christ Jesus on a cross is fundamental to Christianity: According to the New Testament, the crucifixion, along with the resurrection, is one of the bases of the good news of Jesus Christ. The message of the cross is God's power for salvation (1 Corinthians 1: 17-18, 2:2).
    2) That the Bible does not teach that a cross symbol is necessary or helpful: We must be able to recognize the importance of the cross-event, and trusting in Christ's death as the payment for sins, while being able to distinguish the difference between the "cross" and "cross symbol." When the NT refers to the "cross," it's not referring to it as a symbol. Rather, it's either talking about the literal historical event of the crucifixion (Colossians 1:20), the actual cross Jesus was crucified on (John 19:19), or to the sufferings involved in following Jesus (Matthew 16:24). 
            The Bible does not instruct the use of a cross symbol. This absence, along with the truth that the Scriptures contain all that is needed for serving the Lord Jesus Christ, means that a cross symbol is unnecessary and does not add to the believers' lives (or to Christianity) (2 Timothy 3:16-17). 
    3) That physical object-shapes cannot improve spirituality: In the NT, God has already provided for us a reminder of what Jesus did for us; the Lord's Supper (the bread symbolizes Christ's body, the cup symbolizes Christ's blood). Certainly, of course, a person who worships God in spirit and in truth (John 4: 23-24) must also praise God for the sacrificial and substitutionary death of Jesus Christ on a cross. To say that an object-shape contributes to Christianity is to attribute religious power to the object, which would be false worship and false dependence on that object.

    Now that we have established the fact that worshiping the cross or putting our Christian faith on that object is wrong, here are a few things that the cross can show:

    1 It can represent redemption. By believing that Christ died on the cross to wash away the sins of mankind, you are redeemed in the eyes of God and will go to heaven.
    2) It can represent humility and self-sacrifice. It symbolizes Christ's love for all of mankind.
    3) It shows your allegiance to the Christian faith. This is an important representation for a religion that was once fed to lions and crucified for their religious beliefs.
    4) It can identify religious worship centers and fellow Christians. 

    For me personally, I do not necessarily carry around a cross with me everywhere I go. The cross does not make me any more, or any less of a Christian. When I look at a cross, it reminds me of the sacrifice Jesus made for us when he died, but there is no power coming directly from the image of a cross itself. I hope I answered this for you Chimpo; if you have any other questions, just lemme know  Thanks again.
    Reply
    Chimpo, again, thanks for the comment. That is a good question. Hopefully I can answer this thoroughly. 


    Early Christianity had little knowledge of a cross, other than that it was a symbol of the old Paganism. The earliest depictions of the Christian savior were as the Good Shepard, carrying a lamb or a ram. In 707 AD, the Council of Constantinople decreed that the lamb, or ram, was to be replaced by a cross with a man nailed to it. 

    From Biblical teaching concerning the cross in Christianity, we can conclude a few things:

    1) That the substitutionary death of Christ Jesus on a cross is fundamental to Christianity: According to the New Testament, the crucifixion, along with the resurrection, is one of the bases of the good news of Jesus Christ. The message of the cross is God's power for salvation (1 Corinthians 1: 17-18, 2:2).
    2) That the Bible does not teach that a cross symbol is necessary or helpful: We must be able to recognize the importance of the cross-event, and trusting in Christ's death as the payment for sins, while being able to distinguish the difference between the "cross" and "cross symbol." When the NT refers to the "cross," it's not referring to it as a symbol. Rather, it's either talking about the literal historical event of the crucifixion (Colossians 1:20), the actual cross Jesus was crucified on (John 19:19), or to the sufferings involved in following Jesus (Matthew 16:24). 
            The Bible does not instruct the use of a cross symbol. This absence, along with the truth that the Scriptures contain all that is needed for serving the Lord Jesus Christ, means that a cross symbol is unnecessary and does not add to the believers' lives (or to Christianity) (2 Timothy 3:16-17). 
    3) That physical object-shapes cannot improve spirituality: In the NT, God has already provided for us a reminder of what Jesus did for us; the Lord's Supper (the bread symbolizes Christ's body, the cup symbolizes Christ's blood). Certainly, of course, a person who worships God in spirit and in truth (John 4: 23-24) must also praise God for the sacrificial and substitutionary death of Jesus Christ on a cross. To say that an object-shape contributes to Christianity is to attribute religious power to the object, which would be false worship and false dependence on that object.

    Now that we have established the fact that worshiping the cross or putting our Christian faith on that object is wrong, here are a few things that the cross can show:

    1 It can represent redemption. By believing that Christ died on the cross to wash away the sins of mankind, you are redeemed in the eyes of God and will go to heaven.
    2) It can represent humility and self-sacrifice. It symbolizes Christ's love for all of mankind.
    3) It shows your allegiance to the Christian faith. This is an important representation for a religion that was once fed to lions and crucified for their religious beliefs.
    4) It can identify religious worship centers and fellow Christians. 

    For me personally, I do not necessarily carry around a cross with me everywhere I go. The cross does not make me any more, or any less of a Christian. When I look at a cross, it reminds me of the sacrifice Jesus made for us when he died, but there is no power coming directly from the image of a cross itself. I hope I answered this for you Chimpo; if you have any other questions, just lemme know  Thanks again.
     
    Biscuiteater1
    Biscuiteater1
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    Posted: Sep. 16, 2011 - 2:48 AM ET #22

    I could have been a preacher

    https://youtu.be/-fviIgZdYFY

    Reply

    I could have been a preacher

    https://youtu.be/-fviIgZdYFY

     
    OnlyGod
    OnlyGod
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    Posted: Sep. 16, 2011 - 3:56 AM ET #23

    Quote Originally Posted by EX4life:

    Most of the quotes I will use will be taken straight from the Bible; and so to start off, I am going to set the foundation by talking a little bit about Biblical truths.

    -Over 25,000 sites have been discovered that pertain to the Bible.
    -Nelson Glueck, who is a Jewish archaeologist, said "It may be stated categorically that no archaeological discovery has ever controverted a biblical reference."
    -Accuracy of Biblical prophesies: over 2,000 accurately fulfilled predictions in the Bible, which also includes roughly 300 specific details and implications about the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ (I will use a lot of examples of these types of prophesies a little further down).
    -There are no prophetic failures.
    -All of the New Testament writers were of Jesus' generation.
                  -Each writer was either an eyewitness to Jesus, or an interviewer to an eyewitness (3 of these writers were disciples of Jesus: Matthew, John, and Peter).
    -Time intervals between the actual events, the date of the writing, and the earliest known manuscript copy: 
                  -For the Bible, manuscript copies (or portions of copies) exist that were written within 35-160 years after the originals.
                  -One manuscript of part of the Gospel of Matthew has been recently dated; and it suggests that it was written in about AD 50 (17 years after the death of Christ). This would mean that the Gospel of Mark, which predates Matthew's gospel, was written as early as AD 40 (Only 7 years after the death of Christ!).
    -The interval between historical events and the written evidence is far better for the New Testament than any other ancient manuscript.
                  -Example: The first account of Buddha's life was written 700 years after his death.
                  -Example: The earliest copy of Caesar's works is 950 years after being written.
                  -Example: The earliest available copy of Plato's works is dated 1250 years after the original.
    -The degree of textual evidence in the existing copies of the New Testament is even more impressive:
                  -With the enormous number of ancient New Testement manuscripts, there are only nominal differences in the various copies; only 40 lines, or 1/5 of one percent are in question, and none of these variants effect the Christian doctrine.
                  -This compares to large textual variances in other ancient writings: The NT is 25 times more accurately coped than the Iliad, which is considered one of the best copied works of antiquity.
    -The consistency of the Bible is absolutely amazing:
                  -The messages of approximately 40 different writers of the 66 books of the Bible, written over the span of 1500 years, in 3 different languages, all fit together like a puzzle... There is one continual theme throughout - God's plan of salvation from sin won for the whole world by the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
    -Upon examination, there are no errors or contradictions in the Bible.
    -Lastly, the more one studies, without bias, the teachings found in the Bible, the more he/she will see that they conform to the truths of experience and human nature.

    What I am going to do now is copy and paste some of the questions/statements that I noticed in the other thread, and go from there.


    Beautiful Work God Bless you brother, it is actually one of the most historically accurate books in history.  How do you think Michealangelo was inspired to paint the sistine chapel ? From a science book ? not likely.
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by EX4life:

    Most of the quotes I will use will be taken straight from the Bible; and so to start off, I am going to set the foundation by talking a little bit about Biblical truths.

    -Over 25,000 sites have been discovered that pertain to the Bible.
    -Nelson Glueck, who is a Jewish archaeologist, said "It may be stated categorically that no archaeological discovery has ever controverted a biblical reference."
    -Accuracy of Biblical prophesies: over 2,000 accurately fulfilled predictions in the Bible, which also includes roughly 300 specific details and implications about the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ (I will use a lot of examples of these types of prophesies a little further down).
    -There are no prophetic failures.
    -All of the New Testament writers were of Jesus' generation.
                  -Each writer was either an eyewitness to Jesus, or an interviewer to an eyewitness (3 of these writers were disciples of Jesus: Matthew, John, and Peter).
    -Time intervals between the actual events, the date of the writing, and the earliest known manuscript copy: 
                  -For the Bible, manuscript copies (or portions of copies) exist that were written within 35-160 years after the originals.
                  -One manuscript of part of the Gospel of Matthew has been recently dated; and it suggests that it was written in about AD 50 (17 years after the death of Christ). This would mean that the Gospel of Mark, which predates Matthew's gospel, was written as early as AD 40 (Only 7 years after the death of Christ!).
    -The interval between historical events and the written evidence is far better for the New Testament than any other ancient manuscript.
                  -Example: The first account of Buddha's life was written 700 years after his death.
                  -Example: The earliest copy of Caesar's works is 950 years after being written.
                  -Example: The earliest available copy of Plato's works is dated 1250 years after the original.
    -The degree of textual evidence in the existing copies of the New Testament is even more impressive:
                  -With the enormous number of ancient New Testement manuscripts, there are only nominal differences in the various copies; only 40 lines, or 1/5 of one percent are in question, and none of these variants effect the Christian doctrine.
                  -This compares to large textual variances in other ancient writings: The NT is 25 times more accurately coped than the Iliad, which is considered one of the best copied works of antiquity.
    -The consistency of the Bible is absolutely amazing:
                  -The messages of approximately 40 different writers of the 66 books of the Bible, written over the span of 1500 years, in 3 different languages, all fit together like a puzzle... There is one continual theme throughout - God's plan of salvation from sin won for the whole world by the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
    -Upon examination, there are no errors or contradictions in the Bible.
    -Lastly, the more one studies, without bias, the teachings found in the Bible, the more he/she will see that they conform to the truths of experience and human nature.

    What I am going to do now is copy and paste some of the questions/statements that I noticed in the other thread, and go from there.


    Beautiful Work God Bless you brother, it is actually one of the most historically accurate books in history.  How do you think Michealangelo was inspired to paint the sistine chapel ? From a science book ? not likely.
     
    EX4life
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    Posted: Sep. 16, 2011 - 8:18 PM ET #24

    Quote Originally Posted by OnlyGod:



    Beautiful Work God Bless you brother, it is actually one of the most historically accurate books in history.  How do you think Michealangelo was inspired to paint the sistine chapel ? From a science book ? not likely.

    I appreciate the kind words bro. I was unsure of amount of motivational or inspirational comments I would get from fellow believers when I posted this, but it makes me feel like it was worth it for you to comment that... thanks again 
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by OnlyGod:



    Beautiful Work God Bless you brother, it is actually one of the most historically accurate books in history.  How do you think Michealangelo was inspired to paint the sistine chapel ? From a science book ? not likely.

    I appreciate the kind words bro. I was unsure of amount of motivational or inspirational comments I would get from fellow believers when I posted this, but it makes me feel like it was worth it for you to comment that... thanks again 
     
     
    hodge
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    Posted: Sep. 16, 2011 - 8:32 PM ET #25

    Jesus saved
    Reply
    Jesus saved
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