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Christianity continued....

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EX4life

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Posted: Dec. 10, 2011 - 6:20 AM ET #251

The Bible tells us that heaven is God's throne. After Jesus' resurrection, Jesus not only went before us, entering on our behalf, but He is alive and has a present ministry in heaven, serving as our high priest in the true tabernacle made by God (Hebrews 6:19-20; 8:1-2). We have the assurance of His word that He will one day come back to earth and take us to where He is in heaven (John 14:1-4). Our belief in an eternal home in heaven is based on an explicit promise of Jesus. Heaven is most definitely a real place.

With all of that being said, who then, goes to heaven? We have to first understand the problem that is keeping us from heaven. The problem is this - our sinful nature keeps us from having a relationship with God. We are sinners by nature and by choice. "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23). We cannot save ourselves. "For by grace you are saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves - it is the gift of God. Not by works, so that no one can boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9).

God is holy and just and must punish our sin, yet He loves us and has provided forgiveness for our sin. Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6).

So, back to the original question - "Who goes to heaven?" The answer is this - believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved (Acts 16:31). "To all who received Him, to those who believed in His Name, He gave the right to become children of God" (John 1:12). Anyone and everyone can receive eternal life as a free gift. "The gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 6:23).

God invites us to receive Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, accepting His death as the full and just payment for our sins. God promises that anyone who believes in Jesus (John 3:16), trusting Him alone as the Savior (John 14:6), will be saved.

So, do Catholics get into Heaven? Very simply, from a human beings perspective, I/we do not know. It is a decision between that individual person and God. If they accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and everything else I just wrote, then I do not see why they would not go to Heaven; but ultimately, none of us here on earth knows who does and does not go to heaven.

EX4life

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Joined: Dec, 2009

Posts: 13235

Posted: Dec. 10, 2011 - 6:21 AM ET #252

"And a second part to my question is, what about people who are born into families of strong Catholic (or any other religion for that matter) beliefs. If they are raised to know only the religion of their parents or surrounding environment, what chance do they have of ever knowing about the word of God and Christianity?? Therefore ultimately going to Hell without having a choice.."

This question comes up often; and others like it, such as "Do people who have never heard of Jesus go to Heaven when they die?" First, I must note, before I say anything else regarding this, that God will judge all people righteously.

Are they still responsible for how they live? Romans 1:18-20 and 2:14-16 say that God has given people a sense within. The people who have never heard of the law are judged by the law of God which he has placed into their hearts. These passages in Romans also tell us that through nature God has made Himself evident to everyone. This means that even the person who never specifically hears about God, Jesus, or the Bible has an inner sense of right and wrong and therefore has a responsibility to choose doing the right thing.

Is there a way for them to go to heaven? To address this question, let's look at two "levels" of exposure to God, Jesus, and the Bible.

Level 1: Only Heard the Old Testament: First, there is no doubt that no one gets into heaven without going through Jesus Christ (John 14:6 - I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me).

But we need to understand exactly what Jesus meant by that statement. Some people will say that unless a person knows Jesus Christ they cannot get into heaven. I am not sure that is 'exactly' what Jesus meant and I will try to show you why I say that.

To understand this point we must go back to the Old Testament. The question is this, how did the OT people get to heaven? It could not have been that they knew Jesus because He had not come to earth as a human being for them to know yet. So how were they saved?

Romans 3:28 - For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

We today realize that we are not saved by following the Law, but rather we are saved by faith. Well, the OT Saints were also saved by faith, as Hebrews 11:4-19 talks about. Our faith is in Jesus Christ, but their faith was in God. Faith that He would provide a Redeemer to take away their sins.

Job 19:25-27 is an example of this. Job had faith that his Redeemer existed and that He would one day stand upon the earth. In other words, he had faith that God would send His perfect lamb to die for Job's sins. Even though these people did not know what Jesus' name was going to be, they still had faith and trusted God to redeem them. So they were saved just like we are today, by faith, not by works. Now the Law did have something to do with their salvation, but not in the way most people think. The people were attesting to their faith by following the Law that God had commanded them to follow. If they had refused to follow the Law then they would have been saying they no longer had faith in God and no longer believed He would deliver them. I believe that is still true today. When a person goes back into sin and does not follow Christ they are in effect saying they no longer have faith in Him. But that is a different discussion.

We who have heard the Gospel must either come to Christ or we are forever lost. But what about those who have never heard the Gospel? Is there a way for them to be saved without knowing who Jesus is? We have already established that there was a way in the past, by following God and believing Him. But does that mean anything today?

Is there a way for them to go to heaven? To address this question, let's look at two "levels" of exposure to God, Jesus, and the Bible.

Romans 3:28 - For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

EX4life

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Joined: Dec, 2009

Posts: 13235

Posted: Dec. 10, 2011 - 6:21 AM ET #253

Level 2: Never Heard Anything: In today's world there are really not that many people who do not have some exposure to Christianity. There are many who did not care about or pay attention to what they heard (such as a Buddhist in China) but that is not the same thing. First, we must look at the question of whether a person can know God without hearing about Him from someone else.

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities - His eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that mean are without excuse.

We see here that no one has an excuse. Now, if no one has an excuse, but yet not everyone has heard of Jesus Christ, that would make me think that there is a way to what the people in the OT did; believe in God and serve Him, even without knowing who Jesus is. But we must look a little further.

Romans 10:14-15 would seem to say that people can't believe unless they have heard. It is in the very same letter to the Romans as the first passage I quoted. Is Paul having trouble figuring out which is true? No, the problem is our understanding of what is being said. So, let's keep digging. Paul goes on to quote the OT in Romans 15:21: "Rather, as it is written, 'Those who were not told about Him will see, and those who have not heard will understand.'"

Many people also try to claim that God had no salvation plan for anyone in the OT other than the Israelites, but, as I am about to show, is not true either. The whole story of Jonah was about God sending Jonah to preach to Nineveh. Why didn't Jonah want to go preach to them? As Jonah 4:1-3 states, Jonah did not want to go and preach to them because he knew that God would forgive them if they repented. What kind of message did Jonah preach to them finally?

In Jonah 3:4-5, the Bible says that Jonah didn't preach a message of repentance, he just told them they were going to die, yet they "believed God" and repented. What did God do? He didn't destroy them. My point is that Jonah did not give the Ninevites the Law; he did not tell them what they could do to be saved; he just preached that God was going to destroy them. He did not even tell them there was a God, other than in saying that Nineveh would be destroyed.

You might be asking how any of this relates to the people of today? Well, I believe that God is still sending His message around the world. Maybe not necessarily in physical form like Jonah, but in a way that the people understand. Here is a perfect, powerful, AND true example of this:

A missionary visited a tribe up in the mountains of a remote region of Asia near India. The missionary was a white man and the tribes people were dark brown. They had been isolated and had never seen a white man before. The missionary hired another native from a surrounding village to lead him to this tribe. When he arrived the villagers got very excited. When he asked the guide to tell him what was happening he was told that they wanted to know if he was the one who was going to give them "the Book?" He asked what book they were talking about and he heard a story that gave him (and me every time I read this story) goose bumps.

The villagers had handed down from generation to generation the legend that one day a white man (remember, they had never seen a white man before) would come and give them a book which would tell them how to be reconciled with God. Now, they had another name for God, but their legend said that they used to know God, but had become separated from Him and needed someone to help them gain that relationship back again. For generations they had had faith that one day God would send a white man to them with a book that would explain what they had to do to be reconciled with God. Of course the missionary showed them the Bible and taught them about Jesus Christ.

EX4life

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Joined: Dec, 2009

Posts: 13235

Posted: Dec. 10, 2011 - 6:21 AM ET #254

Now here is the question. What happened to those who died before this missionary arrived to give them the Gospel? Remember how the OT Saints were saved; by having faith in God to send a redeemer to reconcile them to Him. Isn't that what these people had faith in too, even if it was stated a little bit differently?

Now I am NOT saying or teaching that there are multiple ways to God, there is only One way and that is through Jesus Christ who died for our sins. However, I am saying that I believe God is merciful and just and compassionate and will judge people on what they do know and not on what they don't or can't know.

I have tried to show that the OT Saints were saved by faith in God, even though they did not know who Jesus Christ was and had not heard the Gospel as we know it. And I believe that model shows that people can trust God and place their faith in Him, even if they have not heard the Gospel. But how does that square with this statement from Jesus in John 14:6 (The way the truth and the life)?

As I have said, I believe that verse as well. Look at the Temple in Jesus' day. There was a section called the Holy of Holies. This was where the ark of the covenant was and on the ark was the mercy seat where God's glory rested. This area was off limits to everyone except the High Priest and he could only go into it once a year with a sacrifice. No one else was allowed into the presence of God.

Now look at what happened at Jesus' death. In Matthew 27:50-51, the curtain that had kept everyone out was split from top to bottom, thereby opening up to everyone the presence of God. But that is not all that happened:

Ephesians 4:8 - This is why it says: 'When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men.'

Who were these captives and where were they? We need to look at some other things that Jesus said, such as Luke 23:43 - "Jesus answered him, 'I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.'"

This is what Jesus said to the thief on the cross. But where is paradise or should I say; where was paradise? We can look again at what Jesus said in Luke 16:19-31. Notice in this story how the rich man asked Abraham to have Lazarus rise from the dead to warn his brothers? He implied that just reading the OT was not enough. The rich man had as much information as Lazarus did, but unlike Lazarus he ended up in Hades because of his desire to do what he knew was wrong. Further, he knew his brothers would do the same.

People who are indifferent (or callous in their thinking) are tough to convince, regardless of how much proof they are given. Read Matthew 11:20-24 for example. Notice that these people had the OT, saw Jesus in person, and watched Him perform miracles.According to the rich man in the story, a miracle (of someone rising from the dead) would have been enough to convince these people to change their minds. Yet, we learn that miracles were not enough proof for these folks - they still rejected Jesus' message.

Ironically, almost as though He was answering the rich man's request, Jesus later rose from the dead - and physically ascended into Heaven in front of many eyewitnesses (Acts 1:3-11). Still, there are many people today who say that they do not have enough proof to accept Jesus as their Savior. Some things never change.

Ephesians 4:8 - This is why it says: 'When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men.'

EX4life

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Joined: Dec, 2009

Posts: 13235

Posted: Dec. 10, 2011 - 6:22 AM ET #255

We know from extra-biblical Jewish writings, such as the Talmud, that the person believed that Hades had two compartments. One compartment was hell, where the unsaved went to await judgment. The second compartment was called both Abraham's bosom and paradise.

Now why would believers not go to heaven when they died? Why would they go to paradise? Because their sins had not yet been paid for. They were captives waiting for their redeemer to set them free. Going to heaven would have meant going into the presence of God and as I showed with the Holy of Holies, nobody was allowed to do that. But when Jesus paid for our sins, He opened the way to the presence of God. So the curtain was torn and He took those who were waiting in paradise to heaven to be with the Father.

So all those OT Saints who had never heard of Jesus were taken to heaven and into God's presence through and by Jesus. Just as Jesus said, no one could come to the Father except through Him. So now we go back to the present. Since Jesus is the one who opened the way to God the Father, if God offers salvation to someone who had not heard the gospel, wouldn't it still be true that they got to the Father through Jesus Christ who opened the way? I believe that to be true.

What about the Great Commission?

All people are accountable to God whether or not they have "heard about Him." The Bible tells us that God has clearly revealed Himself in nature (Romans 1:20) and in the hearts of people (Ecclesiastes 3:11). The problem is that the human race is sinful; we all reject this knowledge of God and rebel against Him (Romans 1:21-23).

Deuteronomy 4:29 proclaims, "But if from there you seek the Lord your God, you will find Him if you look for Him with all your heart and with all your soul." This verse teaches an important principle - EVERYONE who truly seeks after God will find Him. If a person truly desires to know God, God will make Himself known.

The problem is, "There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God" (Romans 3:11). People reject the knowledge of God that is present in nature and in their own hearts, and instead decide to worship a "god" of their own creation. Ultimately, it is not the best thing to debate the fairness of God sending someone to hell who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel of Christ. People are responsible to God for what God has already revealed to them. The Bible says that people reject this knowledge, and therefore God is just in condemning them to hell.

Instead of debating the fate of those who have never heard, we, as Christians, should be doing our best to make sure they do hear. We are called to spread the Gospel throughout all the nations (Matthew 28:19-20; Acts 1:8), called the Great Commission. We know that people reject the knowledge of God revealed in nature, and that must motivate us to proclaim the good news of salvation through Jesus Christ.

If we assume that those who never hear the gospel are granted mercy from God, we will run into a terrible problem. If people who never hear the gospel are saved, it is logical that we should make sure no one ever hears the gospel. The worst thing we could do would be to share the gospel with a person and have him or her reject it. If that were to happen, he or she would be condemned. People who do not hear the Gospel must be condemned, or else there is no motivation for evangelism. Why run the risk of people possibly rejecting the gospel and condemning themselves when they were previously saved because they had never heard the gospel?

In the end, we can be confident that God will not judge anyone unfairly. Christian exclusivism (that one must place their faith in Christ in order to be saved) certainly should provide the Church with more than sufficient motivation to evangelize every person on Earth for literally people's eternal destiny hangs in the balance. God has simply not informed us of any back-up plan He may have for those who do not hear the gospel in this life. We must assume that there is none.

CONCLUSION:

I don't claim to have all the answers, nor do I claim to speak for God; but I do think I know His nature because He has showed it to us in His word. Therefore I believe my view is consistent with His nature and with Scripture. No matter what, I know that God is fair and loving to His creation.

What about the Great Commission?

CONCLUSION:

THESITHKILLER

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Posted: Dec. 10, 2011 - 2:59 PM ET #256

AAAAAAMMMMEEENNN brother.....nice to see you spreading the word. I LOVE JESUS CHRIST and with his help I will soon be fully conquered by his love also.....it's hard but I will never give up. GO TEBOW!!!!

EX4life

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Joined: Dec, 2009

Posts: 13235

Posted: May. 15, 2014 - 4:33 PM ET #257

Quote Originally Posted by THESITHKILLER:

AAAAAAMMMMEEENNN brother.....nice to see you spreading the word. I LOVE JESUS CHRIST and with his help I will soon be fully conquered by his love also.....it's hard but I will never give up. GO TEBOW!!!!

Wow, I'm so sorry I never responded to your comment man. I actually was just using this thread to talk to a friend, and just saw your comment. Hope all is well with you.

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