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Casino to Phil Ivey: Our cards have manufacturing defects that you spotted so we won't pay you.

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Posted: #26
Quote Originally Posted by lbcake:


I hope you're joking?


I never joke.
 
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Posted: #27
Quote Originally Posted by bill702:

Goose, if it doesn't effect me I won't say anything. Now if he paid me on a push I would say something.



That's fair enough.

Always good to mind your own business at the Casino.

Me personally, and only on my own hand, it depends on the dealer.  If I like the dealer, I'll tap the table, let them know it was a push, just to keep a good dealer out of trouble with the pit.  But if I have a nasty dealer, one who doesn't hesitate to pull a card when an obvious rookie is hitting a four against the dealer's six, fukk'em, I tell them nothing.
~~~~~ZOSO~~~~~
 
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Posted: #28


*hitting a fourteen against a dealer's six
~~~~~ZOSO~~~~~
 
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Posted: #29
the woman he was with pointed it out to him   a while back before they went there. She had her membership revoked from another casino in england prior to this incident for the same offense. i wonder had he gone alone if he would've not been targeted.

he might have figured it out on his own.they also requested the same deck to be used the next day. lol 



 
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Posted: #30
Certainly, no love lost for the casinos, but I think that Ivey crossed a moral line. He was an active participant in manipulating the situation. We do know is Ivey asked for the card to be rotated while on the felt, in order to get a better look next time around. Seems like he also brow beat the Casino into reusing the cards the next day.

I think it's a bit more sinister. The woman he was with had a reputation for this. I also imagine they knew of a ink problem with those cards at this casino

OK, it probably doesn't crossing Ivey's moral line, but it does cross mine
 
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Posted: #31
Quote Originally Posted by TheGoldenGoose:




That's fair enough.

Always good to mind your own business at the Casino.

Me personally, and only on my own hand, it depends on the dealer.  If I like the dealer, I'll tap the table, let them know it was a push, just to keep a good dealer out of trouble with the pit.  But if I have a nasty dealer, one who doesn't hesitate to pull a card when an obvious rookie is hitting a four against the dealer's six, fukk'em, I tell them nothing.
I can respect that. It's good to see a little morality on this site for once.
 
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Posted: #32
Quote Originally Posted by bill702:

No, of course I wouldn't call the pit boss over. I would have lost money playing the don't come bet knowing statistics haha. The difference here is that I wouldn't have control if those dice stay or go. 

I can tell you with all certainty if I was at a table and noticed the cards were marked I would have said something. I wouldn't sit there and exploit it. I most definitely wouldn't have demanded that they stay in play. 

You can say what you want about casinos or big corporations doing this or that, but the fact is even with your disdain against them it's not ok to steal from them or anyone for that matter. 

The way I see this story going down is the casino ended up figuring out what he was doing. They might not have figured it out right away and was down some money. So they let him keep playing to get more evidence to ensure they get all their money back. There isn't a casino in the world that would want press like this denying someone as big of a name like Ivey their winnings. So that should tell you how much evidence they have in this case. To sit here and pretend Ivey is innocent is a foolish idea.



Again, this is a gray area of 'marked cards'.

It is a manufacturing defect, not a bend in the edge or a scratch on the surface made by another player.

If the casino is so negligent as to put cards into play into million dollar games, cards which, with simple observation can be figured to be a certain card because of that defect, then they deserve to suffer the consequences of a loss, not only by Ivey, but on the level of Al Pacino in Ocean's 13, where virtually every patron in the entire casino wins at that game.

They are responsible for the tools they give you to play, period. You play, period.

If it happened in a poker game, I'd say something. But not against the house.
 
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Posted: #33
Quote Originally Posted by Slovak:

Sclabrine, always trying to give the black man the edge.

garbage the fukk up already you Spaghetto-O lunch munching loser.

Gonna cry to covers Help section again? Fukking sissy.



Look at my OP.

Was I defending anyone?

Then WHO comes in and makes it a morality issue....WITH A CASINO NO LESS.

A MORALITY ISSUE with a CASINO!

 
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Posted: #34
One AGAIN, Scal is never wrong. It must be pure hell thinking you are perfect and better than anyone else
Histrionic personality disorder. It's sad
 
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Posted: #35
^so you believe this is a MORAL issue???!

With a CASINO!??? With cards THEY provided for in-game betting?

Just think about the question and you'll find yourself siding with me ironically.
 
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Posted: #36

Ivey will win this case if it goes to court.

If there is a tainted deck in play and the player sees it , asks for it to stay in the game and the casino agrees, Oh well. The casino is stuck.

Once while in Vegas at Circus Circus, I was the only player at a blackjack table with a 6 deck shoe. I was so lucky hitting everything that day and betting larger and larger. The pit boss came over and started to change the card decks, I said hey wait a minute, I thought you changed decks every morning ? He said, we have the right to change decks at any time. Of course, I got up and left with my winnings.

So too bad for the casino, He wasn't cheating, just capitalizing on their error.

 
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Posted: #37
Quote Originally Posted by scalabrine:


Again, this is a gray area of 'marked cards'.

It is a manufacturing defect, not a bend in the edge or a scratch on the surface made by another player.

If the casino is so negligent as to put cards into play into million dollar games, cards which, with simple observation can be figured to be a certain card because of that defect, then they deserve to suffer the consequences of a loss, not only by Ivey, but on the level of Al Pacino in Ocean's 13, where virtually every patron in the entire casino wins at that game.

They are responsible for the tools they give you to play, period. You play, period.

If it happened in a poker game, I'd say something. But not against the house.
After much deliberation, I think I agree with this statement more than anything. 
 
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Posted: #38
Quote Originally Posted by scalabrine:

^so you believe this is a MORAL issue???!

With a CASINO!??? With cards THEY provided for in-game betting?

Just think about the question and you'll find yourself siding with me ironically.

You don't get the point for one. It is about you thinking you are never wrong about anything. The subject of the thread doesn't matter.

As for the "moral" issue? I don't effing care one way or the other. It doesn't mean squat to me. You worry about this useless crap, Not me

Histrionic personality disorder. It's sad
 
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Posted: #39
Man, this a tough decision when it comes to choosing sides: A degenerate gambler in Ivey who was complicit in the Full Tilt scandal vs another sleazy, greedy casino.  

Since I abhor both sides, just throw Ivey in prison (with Lederer and Ferguson) and burn the casino down.  
 
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Posted: #40

If it happened in a poker game, I'd say something. But not against the house.


I find it funny how people can justify certain things because the people that are involved. So you would say something if you can cheat other people or they can cheat you, but when it's a casino you would only say something if you got cheated. Sure they stack the deck in their favor only playing games that ensure them a profit, but that's business and I'm not sure you can find another business in the world that has a goal to not make money. 

 I do agree with you that it's their responsibility to ensure proper equipment, but from an ethical standpoint it was on Ivey to not use his name and status to make sure he can continue cheating them. I would half way understand his point of view if he didn't manipulate the situation like he did. An opportunistic thief is no different then one that had the original intent in my eyes. 
 
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Posted: #41
I find it somewhat of a common occurrence that people can justify almost everything these days. Sure I can walk out of a store because the 16 year old kid working at the cash register forgot to charge me for this. They're already gouging me with the prices they charge so it's ok in my eyes. 

The only time anyone attempts to justify something is because in reality they know they were wrong in some sense in the first place. 
 
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Posted: #42
Quote Originally Posted by bill702:

I find it somewhat of a common occurrence that people can justify almost everything these days. Sure I can walk out of a store because the 16 year old kid working at the cash register forgot to charge me for this. They're already gouging me with the prices they charge so it's ok in my eyes. 

The only time anyone attempts to justify something is because in reality they know they were wrong in some sense in the first place. 
Well said. You're a good man. 
 
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Posted: #43
I dont think this is a moral issue, he gained an edge on the house thru their negligence.He may or maybe not be a scurvy dog but i cant say i blame him for taking advantage of the situation here.But i do understand where you are coming from Bill.
 
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Posted: #44
Quote Originally Posted by SALTY:



I never joke.
Not even a little lol
 
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Posted: #45
Quote Originally Posted by bill702:


If it happened in a poker game, I'd say something. But not against the house.


I find it funny how people can justify certain things because the people that are involved. So you would say something if you can cheat other people or they can cheat you, but when it's a casino you would only say something if you got cheated. Sure they stack the deck in their favor only playing games that ensure them a profit, but that's business and I'm not sure you can find another business in the world that has a goal to not make money. 

 I do agree with you that it's their responsibility to ensure proper equipment, but from an ethical standpoint it was on Ivey to not use his name and status to make sure he can continue cheating them. I would half way understand his point of view if he didn't manipulate the situation like he did. An opportunistic thief is no different then one that had the original intent in my eyes. 

A casino runs a business in which you will lose every penny you have over the long term if you keep playing.

That is your choice, yes.

But to the casino it is not about the individual but the gambling masses.

For every person that leaves their is another behind them waiting to lose, keeping a continual flow of earned cash into the coffers.

And what does the gambler get in return? At best, a dopamine rush in his brain which comes crashing down like a jetliner when they have to drive home down several K. They get nothing else. There is no service provided. It is just cash changing hands, all of it into theirs.


That is what is called 'legalized thievery'.

States approved of casinos and lotteries because they can't lose.

And then ONE guy, out of millions of gamblers, comes along and finds an edge, an edge the casino was negligent in finding to conduct their game. He uses his eyes and his brain to take the casino for what is ashtray money to them.

How does the casino react? We will withhold your money and conduct a detailed investigation into how you beat a game that can't be beat.

You MUST have done something to change the circumstances because this game is legally rigged in our favor to take all of your money.

And if not yours, the next guy. And the next and the next and the next.

There will always be someone.

Oh, you didn't mark the cards? You didn't slip an ace in the deck from your sleeve? We marked our own cards and you figured it out?

No, we can't pay you because this game can't be beat.

Now get out of our casino and call up the associated press so we can tell the world how YOU cheated US!

Now really, who is the thief here??????????????


It isn't Phil in my book. No way in hell.
 
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Posted: #46
Quote Originally Posted by Getty3:

After much deliberation, I think I agree with this statement more than anything. 
 
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Posted: #47
Scal, we are on a gambling website for gods sake. I think I can safely say over 90 percent of the people here have been to one at some point in their lives. What is the alternative? We shut the highly regulated casinos down and go gamble in the back alleys of the slums? How would the mafia have dealt with Ivey if he pulled this bs? Would he even be alive to tell his story? Hell if you were caught counting cards back in the mafia ran casinos. He would barely make it out alive. By the way, I wouldn't consider using your knowledge of statistics to be cheating and look how they deal with them in these days or back in the mafia ran casinos.

So now you justify cheating them because they have a business model that ensures them a profit? Can't we extrapolate this to the very thing you preach about on a daily basis? Have the white man be the casino and the black  guys being the customers. We all know the 
Brothas like to play craps. 
 
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Posted: #48
 
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Posted: #49
Let's say for a moment that you correctly selected 25 teams in a row and won the 100,000 survivor contest right here on Covers. But they mistakenly posted the wrong odds on one team, let's say on win number 14... Now after you won 25 in a row, you expected to get paid, Right ? Should they not pay you ?
 
 
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Posted: #50
Quote Originally Posted by bill702:

Scal, we are on a gambling website for gods sake. I think I can safely say over 90 percent of the people here have been to one at some point in their lives. What is the alternative? We shut the highly regulated casinos down and go gamble in the back alleys of the slums? How would the mafia have dealt with Ivey if he pulled this bs? Would he even be alive to tell his story? Hell if you were caught counting cards back in the mafia ran casinos. He would barely make it out alive. By the way, I wouldn't consider using your knowledge of statistics to be cheating and look how they deal with them in these days or back in the mafia ran casinos.

So now you justify cheating them because they have a business model that ensures them a profit? Can't we extrapolate this to the verything you preach about on a daily basis? Have the white man be the casino and the black  guys being the customers. We all know the 
Brothas like to play craps. 

I am not 'justifying' anything.

The entire business model is cheating people out of their money, legal or not. They will get it all over the long run. It's a mathematical certainty.

That is not said to create a debate just to win, that is what a casino is and how it functions.

Now they mark their own cards, or load their own dice, or program a slot machine to come up 777 every spin, or have the money wheel come up 45/1 every spin, or have 19 come up in a roulette spin every time, or give you blackjack every hand, and because their game 'malfunctioned' and you kept playing, increasing your bets when you knew you would win, YOU are CHEATING and a THIEF because you beat them at their attempt to take every penny you have?

I'll say it again: YOU have NO RESPONSIBILITY to tell a casino how to run a game, and have EVERY RIGHT to bet any amount just as they allow you to on any attempt, as long as you are playing within the rules of the game with the tools they provide you to play.

This has to be one of the most bizarre threads in covers history. 


People go to a casino to WIN.

They wait for others to get up from slot machines so they can hit when they are 'due' (laughable but true).

They look at the roulette board and track red and black and high and low to determine their next bet.

They read the program at the sportsbook for horse and dog racing.

They look for 'lucky' dealers in blackjack.

Everything is about 'an edge' within the rules of the game.

This was within the rules.

One if the keenest eyes in all of gambling saw a manufacturing defect.

That is BRILLIANT.

And here comes Bill to say, "Mr. Casino, you aren't taking my money effectively or fast enough. Here's how you need to change your game to do that." 

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