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    All Forums | MLB Betting Forum

    My Money Management and MLB Wagering

    123 Next Last»
    KeyElement
    HotGarbage
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    KeyElement
    KeyElement
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    Posted: Feb. 27, 2013 - 4:04 PM ET #1

    My wagers are rated 1 through 7 units.

    My standard wager is 5 units, a super play is 6, and an absolutely unreal play will be 7. There will occasionally be 1, 2, 3, or 4 unit plays.

    The reason for that scale is that anyone can divide his preferred standard wager by 5 and then proportionately play a higher or lower rated play accordingly. For purposes of example, if a person has normal standard play of $100, his “unit” would be $20, justifying a 4 unit at $80, 6 unit at $120 or 7 unit at $140. These amounts are much more proportionately correct than simply playing 1 unit per game, then suddenly jumping to 2 or 3 units for special plays; as those would double or triple the normal risk. It is doubtful any play is worth double or triple the normal risk, and the win percentage must be very high or those plays are real bankroll eaters, not to mention the wild emotional swings encountered when playing far above one’s normal excitement level.

    Please understand, these are flat play amounts

    I do not “add the juice” to favorites or underplay the underdog

    The unit play is based on my computed probability of a win versus the payoff on a given side or total, it has nothing to do with who the public favors, other than that they will set the number to play against.

    Make no mistake about this either. The Return on Investment is critical regardless of what betting method you use, and it is the same regardless of what method you use. A -140 favorite pays 71.4 cents per dollar of risk, regardless of what you use as a “unit”. It requires a 58.33% probability of winning regardless of how much or how little you play just to be an even money proposition. That does not sound very high because you think when you wager your choice has a 99% probability, right?  Face reality. Home teams win about 52% of all games in MLB and favorites, traditionally, about 57%, coming in very low last year at 55%. Your home favorite probably does not have the overwhelming advantage you think they do. Be careful.

    I will not discuss whether or not to “add the juice”. You do as you wish, but understand this. I have done tremendous research regarding odds, probability and gambling, and to the best of my knowledge there has never been even one definitive, mathematical study produced that proved adding the juice or flat playing the dog, or short playing the dog, was advantageous to the bettor. NOT ONE. People play that way because the math is simple and that is what they were taught, usually by another loser or their bookie (why does he like it?).

    To the best of my knowledge I am the only handicapper on Covers that tracks and posts Return on Investment (ROI). If your favored handicapper does not, you may want to do it yourself, as it can be a real eye opener. Example: Two guys post that they are 7-3 in MLB so far. Guys that wonder in from the football or basketball forums say “Wow, that’s impressive.” True, in foots and buckets where the lines are almost always at or very near -110 it is impressive, but; in baseball if one guy has an average lay-take of -140 his return on risk is only 20% while maybe the other guy has an average lay-take of -110 and his return on risk is 33.64% Both are 7-3, but who did the better job? BOL

    Now and then even a BLIND squirrel can find an acorn
    Reply
    To remove first post, remove entire topic.

    My wagers are rated 1 through 7 units.

    My standard wager is 5 units, a super play is 6, and an absolutely unreal play will be 7. There will occasionally be 1, 2, 3, or 4 unit plays.

    The reason for that scale is that anyone can divide his preferred standard wager by 5 and then proportionately play a higher or lower rated play accordingly. For purposes of example, if a person has normal standard play of $100, his “unit” would be $20, justifying a 4 unit at $80, 6 unit at $120 or 7 unit at $140. These amounts are much more proportionately correct than simply playing 1 unit per game, then suddenly jumping to 2 or 3 units for special plays; as those would double or triple the normal risk. It is doubtful any play is worth double or triple the normal risk, and the win percentage must be very high or those plays are real bankroll eaters, not to mention the wild emotional swings encountered when playing far above one’s normal excitement level.

    Please understand, these are flat play amounts

    I do not “add the juice” to favorites or underplay the underdog

    The unit play is based on my computed probability of a win versus the payoff on a given side or total, it has nothing to do with who the public favors, other than that they will set the number to play against.

    Make no mistake about this either. The Return on Investment is critical regardless of what betting method you use, and it is the same regardless of what method you use. A -140 favorite pays 71.4 cents per dollar of risk, regardless of what you use as a “unit”. It requires a 58.33% probability of winning regardless of how much or how little you play just to be an even money proposition. That does not sound very high because you think when you wager your choice has a 99% probability, right?  Face reality. Home teams win about 52% of all games in MLB and favorites, traditionally, about 57%, coming in very low last year at 55%. Your home favorite probably does not have the overwhelming advantage you think they do. Be careful.

    I will not discuss whether or not to “add the juice”. You do as you wish, but understand this. I have done tremendous research regarding odds, probability and gambling, and to the best of my knowledge there has never been even one definitive, mathematical study produced that proved adding the juice or flat playing the dog, or short playing the dog, was advantageous to the bettor. NOT ONE. People play that way because the math is simple and that is what they were taught, usually by another loser or their bookie (why does he like it?).

    To the best of my knowledge I am the only handicapper on Covers that tracks and posts Return on Investment (ROI). If your favored handicapper does not, you may want to do it yourself, as it can be a real eye opener. Example: Two guys post that they are 7-3 in MLB so far. Guys that wonder in from the football or basketball forums say “Wow, that’s impressive.” True, in foots and buckets where the lines are almost always at or very near -110 it is impressive, but; in baseball if one guy has an average lay-take of -140 his return on risk is only 20% while maybe the other guy has an average lay-take of -110 and his return on risk is 33.64% Both are 7-3, but who did the better job? BOL

     
    HotGarbage
    HotGarbage
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    Posts: 504
    Posted: Feb. 27, 2013 - 4:19 PM ET #2

    Quote Originally Posted by KeyElement:

    My wagers are rated 1 through 7 units.

    My standard wager is 5 units, a super play is 6, and an absolutely unreal play will be 7. There will occasionally be 1, 2, 3, or 4 unit plays.

    The reason for that scale is that anyone can divide his preferred standard wager by 5 and then proportionately play a higher or lower rated play accordingly. For purposes of example, if a person has normal standard play of $100, his “unit” would be $20, justifying a 4 unit at $80, 6 unit at $120 or 7 unit at $140. These amounts are much more proportionately correct than simply playing 1 unit per game, then suddenly jumping to 2 or 3 units for special plays; as those would double or triple the normal risk. It is doubtful any play is worth double or triple the normal risk, and the win percentage must be very high or those plays are real bankroll eaters, not to mention the wild emotional swings encountered when playing far above one’s normal excitement level.

    Please understand, these are flat play amounts

    I do not “add the juice” to favorites or underplay the underdog

    The unit play is based on my computed probability of a win versus the payoff on a given side or total, it has nothing to do with who the public favors, other than that they will set the number to play against.

    Make no mistake about this either. The Return on Investment is critical regardless of what betting method you use, and it is the same regardless of what method you use. A -140 favorite pays 71.4 cents per dollar of risk, regardless of what you use as a “unit”. It requires a 58.33% probability of winning regardless of how much or how little you play just to be an even money proposition. That does not sound very high because you think when you wager your choice has a 99% probability, right?  Face reality. Home teams win about 52% of all games in MLB and favorites, traditionally, about 57%, coming in very low last year at 55%. Your home favorite probably does not have the overwhelming advantage you think they do. Be careful.

    I will not discuss whether or not to “add the juice”. You do as you wish, but understand this. I have done tremendous research regarding odds, probability and gambling, and to the best of my knowledge there has never been even one definitive, mathematical study produced that proved adding the juice or flat playing the dog, or short playing the dog, was advantageous to the bettor. NOT ONE. People play that way because the math is simple and that is what they were taught, usually by another loser or their bookie (why does he like it?).

    To the best of my knowledge I am the only handicapper on Covers that tracks and posts Return on Investment (ROI). If your favored handicapper does not, you may want to do it yourself, as it can be a real eye opener. Example: Two guys post that they are 7-3 in MLB so far. Guys that wonder in from the football or basketball forums say “Wow, that’s impressive.” True, in foots and buckets where the lines are almost always at or very near -110 it is impressive, but; in baseball if one guy has an average lay-take of -140 his return on risk is only 20% while maybe the other guy has an average lay-take of -110 and his return on risk is 33.64% Both are 7-3, but who did the better job? BOL



    Right on the money. We have the same thing in the hockey forum where people just post records but like you said that is much more impressive in sports where the line is almost always near even money. Great post. Good luck this year.
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by KeyElement:

    My wagers are rated 1 through 7 units.

    My standard wager is 5 units, a super play is 6, and an absolutely unreal play will be 7. There will occasionally be 1, 2, 3, or 4 unit plays.

    The reason for that scale is that anyone can divide his preferred standard wager by 5 and then proportionately play a higher or lower rated play accordingly. For purposes of example, if a person has normal standard play of $100, his “unit” would be $20, justifying a 4 unit at $80, 6 unit at $120 or 7 unit at $140. These amounts are much more proportionately correct than simply playing 1 unit per game, then suddenly jumping to 2 or 3 units for special plays; as those would double or triple the normal risk. It is doubtful any play is worth double or triple the normal risk, and the win percentage must be very high or those plays are real bankroll eaters, not to mention the wild emotional swings encountered when playing far above one’s normal excitement level.

    Please understand, these are flat play amounts

    I do not “add the juice” to favorites or underplay the underdog

    The unit play is based on my computed probability of a win versus the payoff on a given side or total, it has nothing to do with who the public favors, other than that they will set the number to play against.

    Make no mistake about this either. The Return on Investment is critical regardless of what betting method you use, and it is the same regardless of what method you use. A -140 favorite pays 71.4 cents per dollar of risk, regardless of what you use as a “unit”. It requires a 58.33% probability of winning regardless of how much or how little you play just to be an even money proposition. That does not sound very high because you think when you wager your choice has a 99% probability, right?  Face reality. Home teams win about 52% of all games in MLB and favorites, traditionally, about 57%, coming in very low last year at 55%. Your home favorite probably does not have the overwhelming advantage you think they do. Be careful.

    I will not discuss whether or not to “add the juice”. You do as you wish, but understand this. I have done tremendous research regarding odds, probability and gambling, and to the best of my knowledge there has never been even one definitive, mathematical study produced that proved adding the juice or flat playing the dog, or short playing the dog, was advantageous to the bettor. NOT ONE. People play that way because the math is simple and that is what they were taught, usually by another loser or their bookie (why does he like it?).

    To the best of my knowledge I am the only handicapper on Covers that tracks and posts Return on Investment (ROI). If your favored handicapper does not, you may want to do it yourself, as it can be a real eye opener. Example: Two guys post that they are 7-3 in MLB so far. Guys that wonder in from the football or basketball forums say “Wow, that’s impressive.” True, in foots and buckets where the lines are almost always at or very near -110 it is impressive, but; in baseball if one guy has an average lay-take of -140 his return on risk is only 20% while maybe the other guy has an average lay-take of -110 and his return on risk is 33.64% Both are 7-3, but who did the better job? BOL



    Right on the money. We have the same thing in the hockey forum where people just post records but like you said that is much more impressive in sports where the line is almost always near even money. Great post. Good luck this year.
     
    KeyElement
    KeyElement
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    Posted: Feb. 27, 2013 - 4:23 PM ET #3

    Quote Originally Posted by HotGarbage:



    Right on the money. We have the same thing in the hockey forum where people just post records but like you said that is much more impressive in sports where the line is almost always near even money. Great post. Good luck this year.
    Now and then even a BLIND squirrel can find an acorn
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by HotGarbage:



    Right on the money. We have the same thing in the hockey forum where people just post records but like you said that is much more impressive in sports where the line is almost always near even money. Great post. Good luck this year.
     
    DAVIDN
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    Posted: Feb. 27, 2013 - 4:24 PM ET #4

    Good Info, I'm with you all year bro. Best of Luck
    Reply
    Good Info, I'm with you all year bro. Best of Luck
     
    joeywelsh
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    Posted: Feb. 27, 2013 - 4:55 PM ET #5

    good stuff key

    pretty impressed

    Reply

    good stuff key

    pretty impressed

     
    The-OG-GunClapa
    The-OG-GunClapa
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    Posted: Feb. 27, 2013 - 6:36 PM ET #6

    Quote Originally Posted by HotGarbage:



    Right on the money. We have the same thing in the hockey forum where people just post records but like you said that is much more impressive in sports where the line is almost always near even money. Great post. Good luck this year.

    As far as I know I'm the only one in the hockey forum who tracks ROI. This is all accredited to Key though as he really opened my eyes to how false a record can be. Great read as always buddy. I can't state how much I appreciate you sharing your knowledge and experience
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by HotGarbage:



    Right on the money. We have the same thing in the hockey forum where people just post records but like you said that is much more impressive in sports where the line is almost always near even money. Great post. Good luck this year.

    As far as I know I'm the only one in the hockey forum who tracks ROI. This is all accredited to Key though as he really opened my eyes to how false a record can be. Great read as always buddy. I can't state how much I appreciate you sharing your knowledge and experience
     
    ratbastard
    ratbastard
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    Posted: Feb. 27, 2013 - 6:56 PM ET #7

    For purposes of example, if a person has normal standard play of $100, his “unit” would be $20, justifying a 4 unit at $80, 6 unit at $120 or 7 unit at $140. These amounts are much more proportionately correct than simply playing 1 unit per game, then suddenly jumping to 2 or 3 units for special plays; as those would double or triple the normal risk. It is doubtful any play is worth double or triple the normal risk, and the win percentage must be very high or those plays are real bankroll eaters, not to mention the wild emotional swings encountered when playing far above one’s normal excitement level.

    Key, if a player's standard play is 100.. wouldn't that be his unit?
    Reply
    For purposes of example, if a person has normal standard play of $100, his “unit” would be $20, justifying a 4 unit at $80, 6 unit at $120 or 7 unit at $140. These amounts are much more proportionately correct than simply playing 1 unit per game, then suddenly jumping to 2 or 3 units for special plays; as those would double or triple the normal risk. It is doubtful any play is worth double or triple the normal risk, and the win percentage must be very high or those plays are real bankroll eaters, not to mention the wild emotional swings encountered when playing far above one’s normal excitement level.

    Key, if a player's standard play is 100.. wouldn't that be his unit?
     
    Jose_Reyes
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    Posted: Feb. 27, 2013 - 8:57 PM ET #8

    Good stuff key.  What this site is for.  BOL this season.     
    Reply
    Good stuff key.  What this site is for.  BOL this season.     
     
    KeyElement
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    Posted: Feb. 27, 2013 - 9:08 PM ET #9

    ratbastard - Think about it. If he is prepared to play $100 per unit the wagers on 4, 6, and 7 would be $400, $600, and $700, so the slight incremental increases would not be present unless his standard wager was $500.00. Very few of us on Covers have the confidence, bankroll and gonads to do that. By dividing his 100 by 5 and calling his standard $100 play a 5 unit play the slight increases or decreases become incremental. To call $!00 a unit I would have to specify a 4 unit as a .8 unit play, a 6 unit as 1.2 unit play and a 7 unit as a 1.4 unit play. I don't think that is preferable, at least not to me. The individual can do anything he wants of course, what I suggest is just what I personally use as a scale and what my picks are graded against. It is mainly the concept I want to get across, The wagered amounts vary too much if the standard unit is $100 and handicappers start calling for 3, 4, 8 unit plays, and you have been around long enough to know that is going to happen, whether it makes sense or not.

    Now and then even a BLIND squirrel can find an acorn
    Reply
    ratbastard - Think about it. If he is prepared to play $100 per unit the wagers on 4, 6, and 7 would be $400, $600, and $700, so the slight incremental increases would not be present unless his standard wager was $500.00. Very few of us on Covers have the confidence, bankroll and gonads to do that. By dividing his 100 by 5 and calling his standard $100 play a 5 unit play the slight increases or decreases become incremental. To call $!00 a unit I would have to specify a 4 unit as a .8 unit play, a 6 unit as 1.2 unit play and a 7 unit as a 1.4 unit play. I don't think that is preferable, at least not to me. The individual can do anything he wants of course, what I suggest is just what I personally use as a scale and what my picks are graded against. It is mainly the concept I want to get across, The wagered amounts vary too much if the standard unit is $100 and handicappers start calling for 3, 4, 8 unit plays, and you have been around long enough to know that is going to happen, whether it makes sense or not.

     
    TheBuddah
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    Posted: Feb. 27, 2013 - 9:11 PM ET #10

    Key - Great info.   One question - " Home teams win about 52% of all games in MLB and favorites, traditionally, about 57%,"

    The 57 % regarding favorites - is that the opening line or the closing number?

    BOL to you this season. 

    Reply

    Key - Great info.   One question - " Home teams win about 52% of all games in MLB and favorites, traditionally, about 57%,"

    The 57 % regarding favorites - is that the opening line or the closing number?

    BOL to you this season. 

     
    KeyElement
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    Posted: Feb. 27, 2013 - 9:34 PM ET #11

    Quote Originally Posted by TheBuddah:

    Key - Great info.   One question - " Home teams win about 52% of all games in MLB and favorites, traditionally, about 57%,"

    The 57 % regarding favorites - is that the opening line or the closing number?

    BOL to you this season. 

    That is ALL favorites. Surprising? Yeah, to the average fan that thinks favorites are E-Z picks it surely is. There would only be a variance if a team started on the line as a dog or favorite and then went the other way. Yes it happens occasionally, but not often. Favorites may go up or down on the line, but they usually remain the favorite, so opening or closing line will only rarely make a difference, and then only when a team has swung from favorite to dog or vice versa.

    Now and then even a BLIND squirrel can find an acorn
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by TheBuddah:

    Key - Great info.   One question - " Home teams win about 52% of all games in MLB and favorites, traditionally, about 57%,"

    The 57 % regarding favorites - is that the opening line or the closing number?

    BOL to you this season. 

    That is ALL favorites. Surprising? Yeah, to the average fan that thinks favorites are E-Z picks it surely is. There would only be a variance if a team started on the line as a dog or favorite and then went the other way. Yes it happens occasionally, but not often. Favorites may go up or down on the line, but they usually remain the favorite, so opening or closing line will only rarely make a difference, and then only when a team has swung from favorite to dog or vice versa.

     
    ratbastard
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    Posted: Feb. 28, 2013 - 6:37 AM ET #12

    Quote Originally Posted by KeyElement:

    ratbastard - Think about it. If he is prepared to play $100 per unit the wagers on 4, 6, and 7 would be $400, $600, and $700, so the slight incremental increases would not be present unless his standard wager was $500.00. Very few of us on Covers have the confidence, bankroll and gonads to do that. By dividing his 100 by 5 and calling his standard $100 play a 5 unit play the slight increases or decreases become incremental. To call $!00 a unit I would have to specify a 4 unit as a .8 unit play, a 6 unit as 1.2 unit play and a 7 unit as a 1.4 unit play. I don't think that is preferable, at least not to me. The individual can do anything he wants of course, what I suggest is just what I personally use as a scale and what my picks are graded against. It is mainly the concept I want to get across, The wagered amounts vary too much if the standard unit is $100 and handicappers start calling for 3, 4, 8 unit plays, and you have been around long enough to know that is going to happen, whether it makes sense or not.

     

    Got it. Thanks.

    Reply

    Quote Originally Posted by KeyElement:

    ratbastard - Think about it. If he is prepared to play $100 per unit the wagers on 4, 6, and 7 would be $400, $600, and $700, so the slight incremental increases would not be present unless his standard wager was $500.00. Very few of us on Covers have the confidence, bankroll and gonads to do that. By dividing his 100 by 5 and calling his standard $100 play a 5 unit play the slight increases or decreases become incremental. To call $!00 a unit I would have to specify a 4 unit as a .8 unit play, a 6 unit as 1.2 unit play and a 7 unit as a 1.4 unit play. I don't think that is preferable, at least not to me. The individual can do anything he wants of course, what I suggest is just what I personally use as a scale and what my picks are graded against. It is mainly the concept I want to get across, The wagered amounts vary too much if the standard unit is $100 and handicappers start calling for 3, 4, 8 unit plays, and you have been around long enough to know that is going to happen, whether it makes sense or not.

     

    Got it. Thanks.

     
    alekomtz
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    Posted: Feb. 28, 2013 - 11:24 AM ET #13

    Hi Key! this is my first year following you, and i would like to know exactly how it works...

    My unit amount is $20, and asumming the play is 5 units, and the line is -120, you bet 100 usd to win 83 ( so you win 4.16u), or you bet 120 to win 100 (you win 5 units)?

    I am asking you this, because there is people that make a play of 5 units, the line is -140, and they count it as a -5u loss, and when they win, they win 5u, so i do not want to have any misunderstanding.

    BOL this season! 

     

    Reply

    Hi Key! this is my first year following you, and i would like to know exactly how it works...

    My unit amount is $20, and asumming the play is 5 units, and the line is -120, you bet 100 usd to win 83 ( so you win 4.16u), or you bet 120 to win 100 (you win 5 units)?

    I am asking you this, because there is people that make a play of 5 units, the line is -140, and they count it as a -5u loss, and when they win, they win 5u, so i do not want to have any misunderstanding.

    BOL this season! 

     

     
    earl1932
    earl1932
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    Posted: Feb. 28, 2013 - 11:53 AM ET #14

    BS.....YOUR FULL OF IT
    Reply
    BS.....YOUR FULL OF IT
     
    KeyElement
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    Posted: Feb. 28, 2013 - 12:08 PM ET #15

    Quote Originally Posted by alekomtz:

    Hi Key! this is my first year following you, and i would like to know exactly how it works...

    My unit amount is $20, and asumming the play is 5 units, and the line is A -120, you bet 100 usd to win 83 ( so you win 4.16u), or you bet 120 to win 100 (you win 5 units)?

    I am asking you this, because there is people that make a play of 5 units, the line is B -140, and they count it as a -5u loss, and when they win, they win 5u, so i do not want to have any misunderstanding.

    BOL this season! 

    A = Correct
    B = Biggest LIARS on the board, but, have mercy; if they have to do that it is probably the only way they can claim to be winners. If you track their ROI you will see in a hurry the value of their picks.

    Now and then even a BLIND squirrel can find an acorn
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by alekomtz:

    Hi Key! this is my first year following you, and i would like to know exactly how it works...

    My unit amount is $20, and asumming the play is 5 units, and the line is A -120, you bet 100 usd to win 83 ( so you win 4.16u), or you bet 120 to win 100 (you win 5 units)?

    I am asking you this, because there is people that make a play of 5 units, the line is B -140, and they count it as a -5u loss, and when they win, they win 5u, so i do not want to have any misunderstanding.

    BOL this season! 

    A = Correct
    B = Biggest LIARS on the board, but, have mercy; if they have to do that it is probably the only way they can claim to be winners. If you track their ROI you will see in a hurry the value of their picks.

     
    KeyElement
    KeyElement
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    Posted: Feb. 28, 2013 - 12:12 PM ET #16

    Quote Originally Posted by earl1932:

    BS.....YOUR FULL OF IT

    https://www.covers.com/postingforum/post01/showmessage.aspx?spt=27&sub=101568858

    Have a nice day!

    Now and then even a BLIND squirrel can find an acorn
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by earl1932:

    BS.....YOUR FULL OF IT

    https://www.covers.com/postingforum/post01/showmessage.aspx?spt=27&sub=101568858

    Have a nice day!

     
    avenue
    avenue
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    Posted: Feb. 28, 2013 - 1:05 PM ET #17

    Reply
     
    jpero
    jpero
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    Posted: Feb. 28, 2013 - 1:46 PM ET #18

    Quote Originally Posted by KeyElement:

    https://www.covers.com/postingforum/post01/showmessage.aspx?spt=27&sub=101568858

    Have a nice day!



    You are a borderline fraud.

    You ran out of your April Forecast thread because I came with cold hard facts and you had nothing to say except using names. You attacked me first because I handed your behind to you with all the fact and stats and you had nothing to come back with.

    https://espn.go.com/blog/spring-training/post/_/id/627/orioles-will-attempt-to-do-it-all-over-again

    Did you know that 32 of those 52 players this team used last season had never played for the Orioles before? Or that this outfit needed to rip through 178 roster moves just to get through the season? Or that Showalter wrote out 122 different lineups in 162 games and never used the same nine position players in as many as 10 games all season?

    All true, ladies and gentlemen. But as Duquette loves to point out, the team they put on the field at the end of last season wasn't merely a lot different than they team they fielded early on.

    It was also a lot better.

    Over the final 56 games of last season, guess which team had the best record in baseball? That would be the Orioles (38-18). And not by accident.

    They had the second-best run differential in the sport (plus-69) in that span. And they played dramatically better defense after they installed Manny Machado at third base and the now-departed Mark Reynolds at first.

    So when the skeptics talk about what the Orioles didn't do over the offseason, Duquette likes to remind those folks about all the moves his team DID make during the season. So you can make a case -- and he’s happy to make it -- that the Orioles didn't have to do as much this winter as a lot of people seem to think.

    “It was a good team at the end of the year,” he said. “It was a good defensive team. And it was a team that our fans connected with. They loved it. Work ethic. The determination of the team to compete in the close games and win the extra-inning games. And that’s kind of who we are. That’s kind of who the city is.”


    But since he brought up all those close games, it’s time for this note of caution: History tells us it isn't wise for any team to assume it can duplicate a season in which it went 29-9 in one-run games, 54-23 in games decided by two runs or fewer, and 16-2 in extra-inning games (winning the last 16 of those in a row), as this team did. For instance:

    • The 2012 Orioles had a .763 winning percentage in one-run games. The Elias Sports Bureau found nine other teams between 1950 and 2011 that won at least 70 percent of their one-run games. Their winning percentage in those games dropped by -- ready? -- 206 points (to .506) the next year.

    • And the Orioles had an .888 winning percentage in extra innings last year. Elias found 24 teams from 1950-2011 that won at least 80 percent of their extra-inning games in a season. The following year, the winning percentage of those teams in those games fell by -- look out below -- 338 points (to .526).

    So after perusing those figures, think the Orioles are a good bet to replicate either of those stats again? Even Duquette wouldn't wager on that happening.

    “I would concede that,” he said. “But I would also say that we won a lot of those one-run games and two-run games and extra-inning games when we had a lesser team. I think we had a better team at the end of the year than we had at the start of the year.”


    The bold is what you are unable to concede. The team you keep referencing about 1 run games and extra inning wasnt the same team at the end of the year. A majority of those games happened in the first half of hte year vs the 2nd half (lesser team vs better team)

    Half a season is a not a fluke. Having the best record and 2nd best Run differntial is not a fluke. YOu can keep using those "records" as a crutch but it is ignorant based on the roster composition for when those games took place.
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by KeyElement:

    https://www.covers.com/postingforum/post01/showmessage.aspx?spt=27&sub=101568858

    Have a nice day!



    You are a borderline fraud.

    You ran out of your April Forecast thread because I came with cold hard facts and you had nothing to say except using names. You attacked me first because I handed your behind to you with all the fact and stats and you had nothing to come back with.

    https://espn.go.com/blog/spring-training/post/_/id/627/orioles-will-attempt-to-do-it-all-over-again

    Did you know that 32 of those 52 players this team used last season had never played for the Orioles before? Or that this outfit needed to rip through 178 roster moves just to get through the season? Or that Showalter wrote out 122 different lineups in 162 games and never used the same nine position players in as many as 10 games all season?

    All true, ladies and gentlemen. But as Duquette loves to point out, the team they put on the field at the end of last season wasn't merely a lot different than they team they fielded early on.

    It was also a lot better.

    Over the final 56 games of last season, guess which team had the best record in baseball? That would be the Orioles (38-18). And not by accident.

    They had the second-best run differential in the sport (plus-69) in that span. And they played dramatically better defense after they installed Manny Machado at third base and the now-departed Mark Reynolds at first.

    So when the skeptics talk about what the Orioles didn't do over the offseason, Duquette likes to remind those folks about all the moves his team DID make during the season. So you can make a case -- and he’s happy to make it -- that the Orioles didn't have to do as much this winter as a lot of people seem to think.

    “It was a good team at the end of the year,” he said. “It was a good defensive team. And it was a team that our fans connected with. They loved it. Work ethic. The determination of the team to compete in the close games and win the extra-inning games. And that’s kind of who we are. That’s kind of who the city is.”


    But since he brought up all those close games, it’s time for this note of caution: History tells us it isn't wise for any team to assume it can duplicate a season in which it went 29-9 in one-run games, 54-23 in games decided by two runs or fewer, and 16-2 in extra-inning games (winning the last 16 of those in a row), as this team did. For instance:

    • The 2012 Orioles had a .763 winning percentage in one-run games. The Elias Sports Bureau found nine other teams between 1950 and 2011 that won at least 70 percent of their one-run games. Their winning percentage in those games dropped by -- ready? -- 206 points (to .506) the next year.

    • And the Orioles had an .888 winning percentage in extra innings last year. Elias found 24 teams from 1950-2011 that won at least 80 percent of their extra-inning games in a season. The following year, the winning percentage of those teams in those games fell by -- look out below -- 338 points (to .526).

    So after perusing those figures, think the Orioles are a good bet to replicate either of those stats again? Even Duquette wouldn't wager on that happening.

    “I would concede that,” he said. “But I would also say that we won a lot of those one-run games and two-run games and extra-inning games when we had a lesser team. I think we had a better team at the end of the year than we had at the start of the year.”


    The bold is what you are unable to concede. The team you keep referencing about 1 run games and extra inning wasnt the same team at the end of the year. A majority of those games happened in the first half of hte year vs the 2nd half (lesser team vs better team)

    Half a season is a not a fluke. Having the best record and 2nd best Run differntial is not a fluke. YOu can keep using those "records" as a crutch but it is ignorant based on the roster composition for when those games took place.
     
    KeyElement
    KeyElement
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    Posted: Feb. 28, 2013 - 2:09 PM ET #19

    Quote Originally Posted by jpero:



    You are a borderline fraud.

    You ran out of your April Forecast ....... blah, blah, blah, ..........for when those games took place.

    https://www.covers.com/postingforum/post01/showmessage.aspx?spt=27&sub=101568858

    Now and then even a BLIND squirrel can find an acorn
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by jpero:



    You are a borderline fraud.

    You ran out of your April Forecast ....... blah, blah, blah, ..........for when those games took place.

    https://www.covers.com/postingforum/post01/showmessage.aspx?spt=27&sub=101568858

     
    jpero
    jpero
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    Posted: Feb. 28, 2013 - 3:25 PM ET #20

    You are a hypocrite.

    You attacked and bashed me cause I brought facts and was spouting misinformation like you who didnt look into anything you said.

    It wasnt until after being attacked by you I then went after you.

    You are a FRAUD

    You dont know how to look at any stats. Keep up the facade.
    Reply
    You are a hypocrite.

    You attacked and bashed me cause I brought facts and was spouting misinformation like you who didnt look into anything you said.

    It wasnt until after being attacked by you I then went after you.

    You are a FRAUD

    You dont know how to look at any stats. Keep up the facade.
     
    jpero
    jpero
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    Posts: 9372
    Posted: Feb. 28, 2013 - 3:31 PM ET #21

    Hows my balls taste... Thats the only excuse you can have for not even trying to defend your original stance.

    Its gotta be because my balls in your mouth are preventing you from even attempting to defend your original stance.

    Orioles didnt win a play off game Wrong: They beat the Rangers

    Orioles only won that much cause of 1 run and extra inning games (no other thought provoking deep reasoning or stats to back up this stance)   Wrong. They had those close games mostly in the 1st half of the year with a roster or misfits. I pointed this out multiple times but you brushed it under the rug. Their actual roster, 2nd half, had the best record in baseball and 2nd best Run differntial

    Keep up the stellar, informative, deep statistical analysis you claim to be doing.

    You were wrong last year about the O's and will be this year. I guess batting 1.000 is something to be proud of even if its the wrong side of the coin


    Reply
    Hows my balls taste... Thats the only excuse you can have for not even trying to defend your original stance.

    Its gotta be because my balls in your mouth are preventing you from even attempting to defend your original stance.

    Orioles didnt win a play off game Wrong: They beat the Rangers

    Orioles only won that much cause of 1 run and extra inning games (no other thought provoking deep reasoning or stats to back up this stance)   Wrong. They had those close games mostly in the 1st half of the year with a roster or misfits. I pointed this out multiple times but you brushed it under the rug. Their actual roster, 2nd half, had the best record in baseball and 2nd best Run differntial

    Keep up the stellar, informative, deep statistical analysis you claim to be doing.

    You were wrong last year about the O's and will be this year. I guess batting 1.000 is something to be proud of even if its the wrong side of the coin


     
    KeyElement
    KeyElement
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    Posted: Feb. 28, 2013 - 4:09 PM ET #22

    Quote Originally Posted by jpero:

    Hows my balls taste...blah, blah, blah .......... be proud of even if its the wrong side of the coin


    See prior response, Post #17
    Now and then even a BLIND squirrel can find an acorn
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by jpero:

    Hows my balls taste...blah, blah, blah .......... be proud of even if its the wrong side of the coin


    See prior response, Post #17
     
    bullmoose
    bullmoose
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    Posted: Feb. 28, 2013 - 4:28 PM ET #23

    J pero,if you think he is a fraud, why chase him? Makes you look idiotic
    Reply
    J pero,if you think he is a fraud, why chase him? Makes you look idiotic
     
    cardifkill
    cardifkill
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    Posted: Feb. 28, 2013 - 4:31 PM ET #24


    Key
    Reply

    Key
     
     
    Louis_IV
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    Posted: Feb. 28, 2013 - 11:40 PM ET #25

    Quote Originally Posted by KeyElement:

    My wagers are rated 1 through 7 units.

    My standard wager is 5 units, a super play is 6, and an absolutely unreal play will be 7. There will occasionally be 1, 2, 3, or 4 unit plays.

    The reason for that scale is that anyone can divide his preferred standard wager by 5 and then proportionately play a higher or lower rated play accordingly. For purposes of example, if a person has normal standard play of $100, his “unit” would be $20, justifying a 4 unit at $80, 6 unit at $120 or 7 unit at $140. These amounts are much more proportionately correct than simply playing 1 unit per game, then suddenly jumping to 2 or 3 units for special plays; as those would double or triple the normal risk. It is doubtful any play is worth double or triple the normal risk, and the win percentage must be very high or those plays are real bankroll eaters, not to mention the wild emotional swings encountered when playing far above one’s normal excitement level.

    Please understand, these are flat play amounts

    I do not “add the juice” to favorites or underplay the underdog

    The unit play is based on my computed probability of a win versus the payoff on a given side or total, it has nothing to do with who the public favors, other than that they will set the number to play against.

    Make no mistake about this either. The Return on Investment is critical regardless of what betting method you use, and it is the same regardless of what method you use. A -140 favorite pays 71.4 cents per dollar of risk, regardless of what you use as a “unit”. It requires a 58.33% probability of winning regardless of how much or how little you play just to be an even money proposition. That does not sound very high because you think when you wager your choice has a 99% probability, right?  Face reality. Home teams win about 52% of all games in MLB and favorites, traditionally, about 57%, coming in very low last year at 55%. Your home favorite probably does not have the overwhelming advantage you think they do. Be careful.

    I will not discuss whether or not to “add the juice”. You do as you wish, but understand this. I have done tremendous research regarding odds, probability and gambling, and to the best of my knowledge there has never been even one definitive, mathematical study produced that proved adding the juice or flat playing the dog, or short playing the dog, was advantageous to the bettor. NOT ONE. People play that way because the math is simple and that is what they were taught, usually by another loser or their bookie (why does he like it?).

    To the best of my knowledge I am the only handicapper on Covers that tracks and posts Return on Investment (ROI). If your favored handicapper does not, you may want to do it yourself, as it can be a real eye opener. Example: Two guys post that they are 7-3 in MLB so far. Guys that wonder in from the football or basketball forums say “Wow, that’s impressive.” True, in foots and buckets where the lines are almost always at or very near -110 it is impressive, but; in baseball if one guy has an average lay-take of -140 his return on risk is only 20% while maybe the other guy has an average lay-take of -110 and his return on risk is 33.64% Both are 7-3, but who did the better job? BOL

    I don't get this.  Why don't you just pick a unit size as a standard, I use 3 units.  If I play a ML at -140.  I risk 4.2 to win 3.  I win, I win 3, I lose I duduct 4.2.  You track units and w/l.  Units being the key.  Not sure I get this ROI and what story it tells different then what I just explained.  If I decide my unit win is 4, I lose. i  deduct 5.8.  what am I missing?  alot of people do that, we just dont call anything roi.

    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by KeyElement:

    My wagers are rated 1 through 7 units.

    My standard wager is 5 units, a super play is 6, and an absolutely unreal play will be 7. There will occasionally be 1, 2, 3, or 4 unit plays.

    The reason for that scale is that anyone can divide his preferred standard wager by 5 and then proportionately play a higher or lower rated play accordingly. For purposes of example, if a person has normal standard play of $100, his “unit” would be $20, justifying a 4 unit at $80, 6 unit at $120 or 7 unit at $140. These amounts are much more proportionately correct than simply playing 1 unit per game, then suddenly jumping to 2 or 3 units for special plays; as those would double or triple the normal risk. It is doubtful any play is worth double or triple the normal risk, and the win percentage must be very high or those plays are real bankroll eaters, not to mention the wild emotional swings encountered when playing far above one’s normal excitement level.

    Please understand, these are flat play amounts

    I do not “add the juice” to favorites or underplay the underdog

    The unit play is based on my computed probability of a win versus the payoff on a given side or total, it has nothing to do with who the public favors, other than that they will set the number to play against.

    Make no mistake about this either. The Return on Investment is critical regardless of what betting method you use, and it is the same regardless of what method you use. A -140 favorite pays 71.4 cents per dollar of risk, regardless of what you use as a “unit”. It requires a 58.33% probability of winning regardless of how much or how little you play just to be an even money proposition. That does not sound very high because you think when you wager your choice has a 99% probability, right?  Face reality. Home teams win about 52% of all games in MLB and favorites, traditionally, about 57%, coming in very low last year at 55%. Your home favorite probably does not have the overwhelming advantage you think they do. Be careful.

    I will not discuss whether or not to “add the juice”. You do as you wish, but understand this. I have done tremendous research regarding odds, probability and gambling, and to the best of my knowledge there has never been even one definitive, mathematical study produced that proved adding the juice or flat playing the dog, or short playing the dog, was advantageous to the bettor. NOT ONE. People play that way because the math is simple and that is what they were taught, usually by another loser or their bookie (why does he like it?).

    To the best of my knowledge I am the only handicapper on Covers that tracks and posts Return on Investment (ROI). If your favored handicapper does not, you may want to do it yourself, as it can be a real eye opener. Example: Two guys post that they are 7-3 in MLB so far. Guys that wonder in from the football or basketball forums say “Wow, that’s impressive.” True, in foots and buckets where the lines are almost always at or very near -110 it is impressive, but; in baseball if one guy has an average lay-take of -140 his return on risk is only 20% while maybe the other guy has an average lay-take of -110 and his return on risk is 33.64% Both are 7-3, but who did the better job? BOL

    I don't get this.  Why don't you just pick a unit size as a standard, I use 3 units.  If I play a ML at -140.  I risk 4.2 to win 3.  I win, I win 3, I lose I duduct 4.2.  You track units and w/l.  Units being the key.  Not sure I get this ROI and what story it tells different then what I just explained.  If I decide my unit win is 4, I lose. i  deduct 5.8.  what am I missing?  alot of people do that, we just dont call anything roi.

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