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The Official Game 6 Pacers Knicks Discussion Thread OR the "George Hill is a god!" Thread...

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Posted: #1
I will admit it George Hill being out has me worried.

Why? 

In the Pacers domination of Game 4, I thought the Knicks would win and Hill was 9-16 and had 26 points. That's coming up BIG. Knicks were never in it.

In Game 3, he had 17 pts and 6 boards and was 5 of 12 from 3 point land.

There is another crucial layer to his lineup presence. He is an excellent defender. 

He brings energy, runs the floor well and the Pacers offense relies on him to dictate the play when he has the ball. He won't tally many assists, but neither does a guy like Nate Robinson and you see all the little extra stuff he brought to the Bulls run. And George Hill is miles ahead of Nate on both sides of the ball.

Why is this a problem? 

Their backup is DJ Augustine. 

DJ Augustine averages 4 and 2. Yes, 4 and 2. 

In Game 5, when he started in place of Hill, he had 12 pts, 0 rebounds, 0 assists and shot 33% from the field AND he can't play defense. The Pacers never were in that game to take it. They were close though but just out of reach of ever taking a real lead.

What's the problem with that? The Pacers don't really have a back-up point guard of worth.

Lance Stephenson is not a playoff caliber PG. When he comes in, you lose leads and momentum. He went 1-7 the other night. Not JKidd territory but otherwise, totally unacceptable.

George Hill is 14pts and 6Reb every night and recently more and now he is out of the lineup.

I just listened to ESPNIndiana and the rep. from Indy said he will not play in game 6  and game 7 he has about a 20% chance of playing, if that. I'm just the messenger.

So this game will be without G.Hill. And maybe the next if it gets there.

What does this all lead to?

The line.

I don't like it. It's 5. That's only .5 pt less than the last line. In this spot, in this big a game, G.Hill at the point is worth more than .5, especially with DJ as your guy to back him up and no backup PG of worth.

With no Hill, Hibbert, West and George will have to come up VERY BIG and it is getting to the point where you are asking these three guys to do too much in too many BIG games. They have consistently come up big and there will be nights where all three just won't have it (or one of three, or two of three) and with no effective PG that spells a lot of trouble for Indy.

Well their bench will reenergize them! Really? Here is their bench:

Hansbrough
Gerald Green (I had to put 'Gerald' because most here would think AC Green given he is so nonexistent)
Sam Young
Mahinmi

Guys, that is not a playoff caliber bench...Not even close.


So that is what makes me uncomfortable about the Pacers.

 
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Posted: #2
Now here's what makes me uncomfortable about backing the Knicks.


Carmelo clearly is still hurting and it affects his shooting (which is not that great anyhow)
JR still suck s
Tyson is a ghost on offense and seems to play mentally defeated
Kidd is for all intents and purposes on the bench permanently from here on out
Amare is giving you almost nothing
Shumpert is done in my opinion. Bench him. (that's a lot of great D out of the lineup).

Leaving the offensive load to WIN THE GAME to the following:

Carmelo - He's back to his old isolation ways and ISOMELO = Losing basketball

Felton - Very streaky. Expected a BIG game from him in 4 and 5 and didn't get it in either.

Kenyon Martin - It's 2013 not 2003. If 10 years ago, I say yes lean on him. Not anymore.

Chris Copeland - He'll need to come up big and that's asking a lot from a 29 year old rookie in the biggest game of his life.

Steve Novak - Is he even alive?

Pablo Prigioni - Again, you don't ask a 35 year old rookie to come up big on the road in Game 6 of the biggest Knicks game in 14 years.

Quentin Richardson - If you see him on the floor and you have the Knicks, you are in deep shi*.


So where do the Knicks points come from? Melo, and he can't score everything. He's shooting way too much anyway.

All this leaves me conflicted.

Why? The Pacers only won by 11 twice and 7 once (yes the games were bigger blowouts than that but those were the final scores). Those were games they DOMINATED (except Game 1 which was back and forth and the Pacers pulled away).

Could 5 be enough to cover for the Knicks in a loss? Could the Knicks actually get it back to the Garden where they might lose anyway?


This 5 (probably going to 5.5) worries me.

Woodson has shown no ability to juggle this lineup correctly so that is to the Pacers advantage in coaching.

It is at the Pacers (TOUGH place to play).

But I have three important questions:

1. Were the Pacers shooting woes in Game 5 - 36% from the floor (and an amazing 57% from the line!) - a function of no flow on offense because of no George Hill and can it continue?

2. Can the Knicks get to the line?

Look at the FT disparity in this series working from Game 5 backwards:

5
Pacers 33
Knicks 17

4
Pacers 30
Knicks 14

3
Pacers 23
Knicks 26

2
Pacers 18
Knicks 10

1
Pacers 26
Knicks 23


The refs not only have a bias for Indy but the Pacers are more aggressive in drawing fouls, partly due to Carmelo failing to drive because he doesn't want to get hacked in the lane and get injured worse. 

3. Can the other Knicks show up for once?

Regression to the mean. Can JR FINALLY give us 22/24 like the winning days of old? Can Tyson give us a big double double? Can Kenyon come back with some magic? Can Copeland keep the energy level up and give us another dozen or so in this game? Can Novak give anything, anything at all?

If you get three of five or four of five, you will get a Knicks win.

What's the problem? The Knicks ARE NOT going to convert back to that tremendous ball movement, balanced scoring Knicks team you saw during the 13 game winning streak. This is a beat up, floundering Knicks team who will need every ounce of heart and hot shooting to pull this one out. And Game 5 was disturbing. I had the Knicks and covered but I expected it to be a blowout. The Pacers hung around the whole game In the Garden in a must win for the Knicks. It was not a great win by any stretch for the Knicks, just a win to extend the series.

SO, your opinions.

Are you comfortable with the number, who are you taking and why?

I'd like to come to a conclusion and put a nice size bet on this game and discussion helps. Bator dropping in helps too.
 
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Posted: #3
It's 5. And only .5 less than the last game.

When I say that I am referring to the last game at Indy (Game 4) which opened at 5.5. This game is 5 which may not even be an adjustment for Hill at all and simply be based on the Knicks win in the previous game, for a .5 adjustment downward.

 
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Posted: #4
just take the under, the game wont break the 180 mark
 
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Posted: #5
Taking the Moneyline as there will be a game 7.
 
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Posted: #6
Closing games are always hard especially if you're Indiana without the services of your top contributers. Forget Granger, we're talking about George Hill. The Pacers ain't the Heat and certainly not the Grizzlies. They could not close this game.
 
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Posted: #7
Some interesting points you've made there, but there's one you're completely wrong about. This may be the biggest game for you in the last 14 years, however .....Prigioni played soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo many games bigger than this one in those 14 years he won't be feeling the pressure.
 
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Posted: #8
Quote Originally Posted by Gogic:

Some interesting points you've made there, but there's one you're completely wrong about. This may be the biggest game for you in the last 14 years, however .....Prigioni played soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo many games bigger than this one in those 14 years he won't be feeling the pressure.



Point taken but the Knicks are not going to lean on Pablo Prigioni for production anyhow. This is the NBA playoffs and you shorten lineups and play half court basketball. Carmelo Anthony isn't going to have Pablo Prigioni decide if he gets the ball or not.

You have a respect for the International game and that is fine. And America has been defeated on that stage in international competition.

But this is the grandest of all stages before the NBA finals. Pablo Prigioni is a name that sweeps that stage, he doesn't perform on it. He's a neophyte. He may very well have some meaningful contribution tonight but that will be due to the fact the Knicks have little to offer on the court otherwise and have struggled badly at times offensively.
 
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Posted: #9
Quote Originally Posted by Minesweeper:

just take the under, the game wont break the 180 mark



 
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Posted: #10
Quote Originally Posted by scalabrine:




Point taken but the Knicks are not going to lean on Pablo Prigioni for production anyhow. This is the NBA playoffs and you shorten lineups and play half court basketball. Carmelo Anthony isn't going to have Pablo Prigioni decide if he gets the ball or not.

You have a respect for the International game and that is fine. And America has been defeated on that stage in international competition.

But this is the grandest of all stages before the NBA finals. Pablo Prigioni is a name that sweeps that stage, he doesn't perform on it. He's a neophyte. He may very well have some meaningful contribution tonight but that will be due to the fact the Knicks have little to offer on the court otherwise and have struggled badly at times offensively.
scal-- i humbly disagree.  prigioni is a stud, though old.  he doens't make mistakes.  in playoffs 6 turnovers in 9 games.  20 minutes per game.  44 percent from three.  not bad for a rookie.  guy has veteran ice water.  won the bronze medal with argentina in 2008.  manu, his teamate, is recruiting him to replace corey joseph on san antonio.  when he was inserted into starting lineup that's when the knicks took off in february and march.  as i told you, when woodson panicked, and didn't start pablo in game four, he threw that game away.  when woodson inserted priogioni into the starting lineup on march 2, 2013 at utah, he saved their season.  new york won 13 straight.  finished the season 16-2.  hoops is a team game.  a steady point guard who doesn't turn the ball over, plays good defense and knows FLOW is something USA players could learn to comprehend.  Copeland, as well, plays more like an international player.   That's a compliment.  NBA has proven to be overrated, just like the US.  There are 7 billion people on the planet.  The US is about 314 million.  Look at baseball, our national pastime.  It can't produce the best players anymore.  That will soon be the case in hoops.
 
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Posted: #11
it all depends on whether hill plays.  he's to be tested before the game.  hill plays, indiana.  he doesn't play, new york.
 
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Posted: #12
Quote Originally Posted by stevenp:

it all depends on whether hill plays.  he's to be tested before the game.  hill plays, indiana.  he doesn't play, new york.

He's gotta be ruled out at this point and ESPNIndiana pretty much confirmed that last night.

https://www.thebiglead.com/index.php/2013/05/17/george-hill-sat-in-a-dark-room-before-the-pacers-lost-to-the-knicks-and-his-concussion-has-him-listed-as-doubtful-for-game-six/

I've had concussions. I've NEVER sat in a dark room before.
 
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Posted: #13
oh, btw, great write up?  this game is tough.  carmelo's left shoulder (thanks to garnett) is clearly bothering him.  copeland is GREAT.  kenyon is as great as kenyon can be.  Your points about pacer bench legit.  i love tyler hansborough, however,  gerald green's a bust, though he's streaky and hit some shots late.  sam young is a gritty veteran, but didn't play much of the year.  i like orlando johnson, but frank vogel's not playing him.  Lastly, and no mention in your writeup, VOGEL CAN COACH!!!!!!!  PLEASE GOD LET GEORGE HILL PLAY.
 
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Posted: #14
Quote Originally Posted by stevenp:

scal-- i humbly disagree.  prigioni is a stud, though old.  he doens't make mistakes.  in playoffs 6 turnovers in 9 games.  20 minutes per game.  44 percent from three.  not bad for a rookie.  guy has veteran ice water.  won the bronze medal with argentina in 2008.  manu, his teamate, is recruiting him to replace corey joseph on san antonio.  when he was inserted into starting lineup that's when the knicks took off in february and march.  as i told you, when woodson panicked, and didn't start pablo in game four, he threw that game away.  when woodson inserted priogioni into the starting lineup on march 2, 2013 at utah, he saved their season.  new york won 13 straight.  finished the season 16-2.  hoops is a team game.  a steady point guard who doesn't turn the ball over, plays good defense and knows FLOW is something USA players could learn to comprehend.  Copeland, as well, plays more like an international player.   That's a compliment.  NBA has proven to be overrated, just like the US.  There are 7 billion people on the planet.  The US is about 314 million.  Look at baseball, our national pastime.  It can't produce the best players anymore.  That will soon be the case in hoops.

All good points.

Here's the main problem with him.

He can't score and that's the also the main problem with the Knicks. Too many shots and too few points to go with them.

My money doesn't follow Pablo and the team you described on the 13 game win streak is no longer this team.

But yes, he can provide stability and flow but ultimately the ball goes to you know who and if he doesn't knock them, game over.

 
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Posted: #15
Quote Originally Posted by stevenp:

oh, btw, great write up?  this game is tough.  carmelo's left shoulder (thanks to garnett) is clearly bothering him.  copeland is GREAT.  kenyon is as great as kenyon can be.  Your points about pacer bench legit.  i love tyler hansborough, however,  gerald green's a bust, though he's streaky and hit some shots late.  sam young is a gritty veteran, but didn't play much of the year.  i like orlando johnson, but frank vogel's not playing him.  Lastly, and no mention in your writeup, VOGEL CAN COACH!!!!!!!  PLEASE GOD LET GEORGE HILL PLAY.

Yes, Vogel wins the coaching battle hands down.

Copeland is great for about 9 minutes a game. Then his flaws show up. He brings energy though and the Knicks need a lot of that.

I am very confident Hill will be out based on everything I am reading.

The concussion process the league has set up is EXTENSIVE. It's not just lickety-split.

A guy that was sitting in a dark room before game 5 is gonna have a VERy tough time starting in Game 6 even if there were no tests.

Count him out IMO.

So the question is, since I believe I know he will be out, do I jump on the 5 and the Knicks now?

God they disturb me in so many regards. 
 
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Posted: #16
the way I see it, it is all up to stern if he wants hill to play tonight
 
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Posted: #17
Nice write-up and i agree with what you are saying. i think from your writing, there is one conclusion: if hill plays, take the pacers, if hill doesnt play, stay the f*ck away, could go either way
 
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Posted: #18
Scalabrine excellent analysis as always. Bottom line Vogel out coaching Woodson and Pacers don't lose at home!  Knicks are not a good team..just a group of stat padders,Pacers play defense with relentless energy 0 give up!
 
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Posted: #19
Quote Originally Posted by bob696969:

Nice write-up and i agree with what you are saying. i think from your writing, there is one conclusion: if hill plays, take the pacers, if hill doesnt play, stay the f*ck away, could go either way
 
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Posted: #20
Quote Originally Posted by whicks25:

Scalabrine excellent analysis as always. Bottom line Vogel out coaching Woodson and Pacers don't lose at home!  Knicks are not a good team..just a group of stat padders,Pacers play defense with relentless energy 0 give up!

That is a good point and needs to be accentuated.

The pacers play like they are playing now, with clamp down D and energy, ALL YEAR LONG.

Playoff basketball is a seamless transition for them.

That is not the case for all teams. 

The Knicks are still transitioning. And worse, the winning basketball that got them here has completely disappeared after Game 3 of the Celtics series.

Big positive for the Pacers there.
 
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Posted: #21
scala, just post your play please, so I can make decision easier.

 
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Posted: #22
Pacers win. This is their Game 7 @ home as they don't want to go back to MSG. Hill in or out they find a way to win. They will have lots of energy on "D".
 
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Posted: #23
Quote Originally Posted by Melo7:

scala, just post your play please, so I can make decision easier.


Not posting plays anymore this year
 
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Posted: #24
Quote Originally Posted by scalabrine:

probably best advise.
 
 
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Posted: #25
Quote Originally Posted by 98ITR:

Pacers win. This is their Game 7 @ home as they don't want to go back to MSG. Hill in or out they find a way to win. They will have lots of energy on "D".

Yeah, but the problem is the line.

The ML doesn't appeal to me at -220 is too high without A starting PG and too high to make any real money anyhow.
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