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    All Forums | NBA Betting Forum

    LeBron fans will say " Lebron cant do it by himself "

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    joshchs77
    StanThaCaddy
    lonniejoshua
    tjohnsont
    melossinglet
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    joshchs77
    joshchs77
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    Posted: Jun. 7, 2015 - 12:07 PM ET #1

    funny how when cavs or miami win a game Lebron's teammates dont matter, but when they lose, his teammates didnt do enough...i give up....Cavs did get hit with the injury bug, but thats what happens when you load up on superstars and try to bulid super teams
    Reply
    To remove first post, remove entire topic.
    funny how when cavs or miami win a game Lebron's teammates dont matter, but when they lose, his teammates didnt do enough...i give up....Cavs did get hit with the injury bug, but thats what happens when you load up on superstars and try to bulid super teams
     
    StanThaCaddy
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    Posted: Jun. 7, 2015 - 12:18 PM ET #2

    2 of the 3 worst supporting casts in NBA Finals history. However this team is head and shoulders better than the 07 team. I think 99% of the Lebron criticism is just pure envy and hate for the guy but I will say this... I watched Dwyane Wade in 2006 single handedly win a championship. Yes he had Shaq who was a very good second option averaging 18 ppg but outside of that it was Wade willing his team to 4 straight wins. Lebron is good enough to do that. If he loses this series and goes 2-4 I wouldnt give him a pass. But Id look at it as 2-3 because the first Cavs title appearance was a joke. 
    Reply
    2 of the 3 worst supporting casts in NBA Finals history. However this team is head and shoulders better than the 07 team. I think 99% of the Lebron criticism is just pure envy and hate for the guy but I will say this... I watched Dwyane Wade in 2006 single handedly win a championship. Yes he had Shaq who was a very good second option averaging 18 ppg but outside of that it was Wade willing his team to 4 straight wins. Lebron is good enough to do that. If he loses this series and goes 2-4 I wouldnt give him a pass. But Id look at it as 2-3 because the first Cavs title appearance was a joke. 
     
    lonniejoshua
    lonniejoshua
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    Posted: Jun. 7, 2015 - 12:30 PM ET #3

    Are you really comparing this cavs roster without love and irving to wades team he one with. Wade had Shaq and several other legit nba players
    Reply
    Are you really comparing this cavs roster without love and irving to wades team he one with. Wade had Shaq and several other legit nba players
     
    joshchs77
    joshchs77
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    Posted: Jun. 7, 2015 - 12:36 PM ET #4

    Wade did have Shaq but wade averaged 35 and 9 that finals series i believe...if chris bosh doesnt make an incredible rebound and ray allen doesnt hit an even more incredible corner 3 lebron would have only 1 ring, but nobody cares about Lebrons teamates when they win
    Reply
    Wade did have Shaq but wade averaged 35 and 9 that finals series i believe...if chris bosh doesnt make an incredible rebound and ray allen doesnt hit an even more incredible corner 3 lebron would have only 1 ring, but nobody cares about Lebrons teamates when they win
     
    StanThaCaddy
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    Posted: Jun. 7, 2015 - 1:07 PM ET #5

    Quote Originally Posted by joshchs77:

    Wade did have Shaq but wade averaged 35 and 9 that finals series i believe...if chris bosh doesnt make an incredible rebound and ray allen doesnt hit an even more incredible corner 3 lebron would have only 1 ring, but nobody cares about Lebrons teamates when they win

    True but Lebron also came out and dropped 37 in game 7. Everyone has had role players hit huge shots but people act like this Ray Allen shot was a half court fadeaway. It was a step back 3 by one of the best 3 point shooters of all time.
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by joshchs77:

    Wade did have Shaq but wade averaged 35 and 9 that finals series i believe...if chris bosh doesnt make an incredible rebound and ray allen doesnt hit an even more incredible corner 3 lebron would have only 1 ring, but nobody cares about Lebrons teamates when they win

    True but Lebron also came out and dropped 37 in game 7. Everyone has had role players hit huge shots but people act like this Ray Allen shot was a half court fadeaway. It was a step back 3 by one of the best 3 point shooters of all time.
     
    tjohnsont
    tjohnsont
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    Posted: Jun. 7, 2015 - 1:11 PM ET #6

    Quote Originally Posted by joshchs77:

    Wade did have Shaq but wade averaged 35 and 9 that finals series i believe...if chris bosh doesnt make an incredible rebound and ray allen doesnt hit an even more incredible corner 3 lebron would have only 1 ring, but nobody cares about Lebrons teamates when they win

    Yea, somehow that was the only close/lucky shot in NBA finals history.  Cuz other games are always blowouts.
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by joshchs77:

    Wade did have Shaq but wade averaged 35 and 9 that finals series i believe...if chris bosh doesnt make an incredible rebound and ray allen doesnt hit an even more incredible corner 3 lebron would have only 1 ring, but nobody cares about Lebrons teamates when they win

    Yea, somehow that was the only close/lucky shot in NBA finals history.  Cuz other games are always blowouts.
     
    melossinglet
    melossinglet
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    Posted: Jun. 7, 2015 - 1:12 PM ET #7

    no,youre 100% wrong...which seems like a pretty common theme for you...in reality,wen he loses its all his fault in the eyes of haters like yourself and then wen he wins its all cos" he ran off to build a superstar team with his buddies" and "he only won cos of a miracle shot,he shud be 0-1000 in finals" and "the league wants him to win and the refs always bail him out"...and on and on and on.


    thank you for giving up tho...another pointless poster spewing drivel based entirely on his dislike for a sportsman,real valuable
    Reply
    no,youre 100% wrong...which seems like a pretty common theme for you...in reality,wen he loses its all his fault in the eyes of haters like yourself and then wen he wins its all cos" he ran off to build a superstar team with his buddies" and "he only won cos of a miracle shot,he shud be 0-1000 in finals" and "the league wants him to win and the refs always bail him out"...and on and on and on.


    thank you for giving up tho...another pointless poster spewing drivel based entirely on his dislike for a sportsman,real valuable
     
    joshchs77
    joshchs77
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    Posted: Jun. 7, 2015 - 2:27 PM ET #8

    Quote Originally Posted by melossinglet:

    no,youre 100% wrong...which seems like a pretty common theme for you...in reality,wen he loses its all his fault in the eyes of haters like yourself and then wen he wins its all cos" he ran off to build a superstar team with his buddies" and "he only won cos of a miracle shot,he shud be 0-1000 in finals" and "the league wants him to win and the refs always bail him out"...and on and on and on.


    thank you for giving up tho...another pointless poster spewing drivel based entirely on his dislike for a sportsman,real valuable

    you failed to mention anything about his teams or teammates...which is exactly my point. i said when cavs or heat lose not when lebron loses

    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by melossinglet:

    no,youre 100% wrong...which seems like a pretty common theme for you...in reality,wen he loses its all his fault in the eyes of haters like yourself and then wen he wins its all cos" he ran off to build a superstar team with his buddies" and "he only won cos of a miracle shot,he shud be 0-1000 in finals" and "the league wants him to win and the refs always bail him out"...and on and on and on.


    thank you for giving up tho...another pointless poster spewing drivel based entirely on his dislike for a sportsman,real valuable

    you failed to mention anything about his teams or teammates...which is exactly my point. i said when cavs or heat lose not when lebron loses

     
    The Hawk
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    Posted: Jun. 7, 2015 - 2:37 PM ET #9

    NOBODY said his teammates didn't matter in Miami. Are you kidding? Wade, Bosh, end LeBron put that team together THEMSELVES.

    And for a guy "that only thinks of himself" TOOK LESS MONEY TO DO IT.
    Reply
    NOBODY said his teammates didn't matter in Miami. Are you kidding? Wade, Bosh, end LeBron put that team together THEMSELVES.

    And for a guy "that only thinks of himself" TOOK LESS MONEY TO DO IT.
     
    ybet
    ybet
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    Posted: Jun. 7, 2015 - 2:47 PM ET #10

    NBA franchise players are expected to win games. NBA greats are expected to win championships. Any presumed NBA future legend, should be expected to win championships without switching to another stars team to do so. Also they need to find a way to win when the chips are down. It was expected of Bird, Magic, Jordan, Kobe, and so on and so forth. Lebron is on his own team again, a team that was put together specifically to compliment him. He's not on Wades team anymore. Time to put up, and win! Injuries or not. This is the NBA and injuries happen. He's the leader of the team and he needs to find a way to win. No more excuses!
    Reply
    NBA franchise players are expected to win games. NBA greats are expected to win championships. Any presumed NBA future legend, should be expected to win championships without switching to another stars team to do so. Also they need to find a way to win when the chips are down. It was expected of Bird, Magic, Jordan, Kobe, and so on and so forth. Lebron is on his own team again, a team that was put together specifically to compliment him. He's not on Wades team anymore. Time to put up, and win! Injuries or not. This is the NBA and injuries happen. He's the leader of the team and he needs to find a way to win. No more excuses!
     
    The Hawk
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    Posted: Jun. 7, 2015 - 3:00 PM ET #11

    Injuries or not? 

    You got three All-Stars on your team.

    Two of them get injured..........

    It's on YOU, LeBron!

    Remember when MJ won when Pippen and Rodman were injured? 
    NEVER HAPPENED

    Remember when Bird won when Parish and McHale were injured?
    NEVER HAPPENED

    Remember when The Admiral won when Tim Duncan got injured?
    NEVER HAPPENED

    Injuries happen, just not to the team that wins............funny how that works out, isn't it?

    Let's get ready to hate, because let's face it, LeBron is all they have left, so if they lose, it's his fault. There should be no dropoff whatsoever going from Kyrie Irving to an Australian midget, right?
    Reply
    Injuries or not? 

    You got three All-Stars on your team.

    Two of them get injured..........

    It's on YOU, LeBron!

    Remember when MJ won when Pippen and Rodman were injured? 
    NEVER HAPPENED

    Remember when Bird won when Parish and McHale were injured?
    NEVER HAPPENED

    Remember when The Admiral won when Tim Duncan got injured?
    NEVER HAPPENED

    Injuries happen, just not to the team that wins............funny how that works out, isn't it?

    Let's get ready to hate, because let's face it, LeBron is all they have left, so if they lose, it's his fault. There should be no dropoff whatsoever going from Kyrie Irving to an Australian midget, right?
     
    The Hawk
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    Posted: Jun. 7, 2015 - 3:27 PM ET #12

    Pay attention. We're talking FINALS here, okay?

    Bulls actually lost EC semis two years in a row without MJ, winning 55, and then 47 games with Pippen as lead dog.

    MJ comes back, Bulls win 72 and 69 games. Notice a pattern there?

    We already know how Cavs play without James

    Tell us some more Bird playing with Russell and KC Jones stories......
    Reply
    Pay attention. We're talking FINALS here, okay?

    Bulls actually lost EC semis two years in a row without MJ, winning 55, and then 47 games with Pippen as lead dog.

    MJ comes back, Bulls win 72 and 69 games. Notice a pattern there?

    We already know how Cavs play without James

    Tell us some more Bird playing with Russell and KC Jones stories......
     
    ybet
    ybet
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    Posted: Jun. 7, 2015 - 4:02 PM ET #13

    Quote Originally Posted by The Hawk:

    Injuries or not? 

    You got three All-Stars on your team.

    Two of them get injured..........

    It's on YOU, LeBron!

    Remember when MJ won when Pippen and Rodman were injured? 
    NEVER HAPPENED

    Remember when Bird won when Parish and McHale were injured?
    NEVER HAPPENED

    Remember when The Admiral won when Tim Duncan got injured?
    NEVER HAPPENED

    Injuries happen, just not to the team that wins............funny how that works out, isn't it?

    Let's get ready to hate, because let's face it, LeBron is all they have left, so if they lose, it's his fault. There should be no dropoff whatsoever going from Kyrie Irving to an Australian midget, right?


    I guess we will just chalk Lebrons career up to many cases of bad luck then. At least when it comes to him having to lead "his own" team to a championship. Its unfortunate that his other two franchise players are injured, but somehow, someway Lebron seems to fall short.
    We're not talking about his Miami conquest. Imagine if Jordan went to the Pistons, or Magic went to the Celtics, maybe Kobe should have got traded to the Spurs. Why is this never brought into the conversation. Sure championships are championships, but look how it was done. We aren't talking about the journeyman Robert Horry, we are talking about King James, that left his team high and dry in pursuit of a title that he couldn't couldn't bring to Cleveland on a team that was led by him. Will Lebron ever when a title in Cleveland? Something always seems to happen. There is always a reason as to why he was unable to do it.
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by The Hawk:

    Injuries or not? 

    You got three All-Stars on your team.

    Two of them get injured..........

    It's on YOU, LeBron!

    Remember when MJ won when Pippen and Rodman were injured? 
    NEVER HAPPENED

    Remember when Bird won when Parish and McHale were injured?
    NEVER HAPPENED

    Remember when The Admiral won when Tim Duncan got injured?
    NEVER HAPPENED

    Injuries happen, just not to the team that wins............funny how that works out, isn't it?

    Let's get ready to hate, because let's face it, LeBron is all they have left, so if they lose, it's his fault. There should be no dropoff whatsoever going from Kyrie Irving to an Australian midget, right?


    I guess we will just chalk Lebrons career up to many cases of bad luck then. At least when it comes to him having to lead "his own" team to a championship. Its unfortunate that his other two franchise players are injured, but somehow, someway Lebron seems to fall short.
    We're not talking about his Miami conquest. Imagine if Jordan went to the Pistons, or Magic went to the Celtics, maybe Kobe should have got traded to the Spurs. Why is this never brought into the conversation. Sure championships are championships, but look how it was done. We aren't talking about the journeyman Robert Horry, we are talking about King James, that left his team high and dry in pursuit of a title that he couldn't couldn't bring to Cleveland on a team that was led by him. Will Lebron ever when a title in Cleveland? Something always seems to happen. There is always a reason as to why he was unable to do it.
     
    ybet
    ybet
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    Posted: Jun. 7, 2015 - 4:03 PM ET #14

    Oh and Pippen and Rodman were never franchise players. Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving were.
    Reply
    Oh and Pippen and Rodman were never franchise players. Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving were.
     
    lonniejoshua
    lonniejoshua
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    Posted: Jun. 7, 2015 - 6:43 PM ET #15

    Quote Originally Posted by ybet:

    NBA franchise players are expected to win games. NBA greats are expected to win championships. Any presumed NBA future legend, should be expected to win championships without switching to another stars team to do so. Also they need to find a way to win when the chips are down. It was expected of Bird, Magic, Jordan, Kobe, and so on and so forth. Lebron is on his own team again, a team that was put together specifically to compliment him. He's not on Wades team anymore. Time to put up, and win! Injuries or not. This is the NBA and injuries happen. He's the leader of the team and he needs to find a way to win. No more excuses!

    None of those players ever won anything until they had other legit nba stars around them.....plus do you find another thing with the players you name? They all play/drafted on big market teams......others wanted to go play in LA chicago and boston.....he could not get anyone to come play in cleveland.
    A. Small market
    b. Cleveland is a sucky place to live.
    c. Owners didn't want to spend any money they were making deep playoff runs on lebron shoulders. The problem he had compared to mj is lebron was too good to fast. It took jordan a while to get a team to/near the finals.....oh yeah and scottie pippen. ....oh yeah and most of the elite players of that era had just retired.
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by ybet:

    NBA franchise players are expected to win games. NBA greats are expected to win championships. Any presumed NBA future legend, should be expected to win championships without switching to another stars team to do so. Also they need to find a way to win when the chips are down. It was expected of Bird, Magic, Jordan, Kobe, and so on and so forth. Lebron is on his own team again, a team that was put together specifically to compliment him. He's not on Wades team anymore. Time to put up, and win! Injuries or not. This is the NBA and injuries happen. He's the leader of the team and he needs to find a way to win. No more excuses!

    None of those players ever won anything until they had other legit nba stars around them.....plus do you find another thing with the players you name? They all play/drafted on big market teams......others wanted to go play in LA chicago and boston.....he could not get anyone to come play in cleveland.
    A. Small market
    b. Cleveland is a sucky place to live.
    c. Owners didn't want to spend any money they were making deep playoff runs on lebron shoulders. The problem he had compared to mj is lebron was too good to fast. It took jordan a while to get a team to/near the finals.....oh yeah and scottie pippen. ....oh yeah and most of the elite players of that era had just retired.
     
    The Hawk
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    Posted: Jun. 7, 2015 - 7:12 PM ET #16

    Quote Originally Posted by ybet:

    Oh and Pippen and Rodman were never franchise players. Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving were.

    Scottie Pippen-Top 50 All-Time & HOF

    Dennis Rodman-Led league in rebounds 7 straight years & HOF

    But, you make a great point..................................not
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by ybet:

    Oh and Pippen and Rodman were never franchise players. Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving were.

    Scottie Pippen-Top 50 All-Time & HOF

    Dennis Rodman-Led league in rebounds 7 straight years & HOF

    But, you make a great point..................................not
     
    The Hawk
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    Posted: Jun. 7, 2015 - 7:14 PM ET #17

    Bonus Question:

    Name the player that DID win it all by himself!
    Reply
    Bonus Question:

    Name the player that DID win it all by himself!
     
    makusaki1337
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    Posted: Jun. 7, 2015 - 7:15 PM ET #18

    lets see lebum win tonight
    Reply
    lets see lebum win tonight
     
    ybet
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    Posted: Jun. 7, 2015 - 7:46 PM ET #19

    Quote Originally Posted by lonniejoshua:


    c. Owners didn't want to spend any money they were making deep playoff runs on lebron shoulders. The problem he had compared to mj is lebron was too good to fast. It took jordan a while to get a team to/near the finals.....oh yeah and scottie pippen. ....oh yeah and most of the elite players of that era had just retired.


    The question still remains. Whether it sucks to live in Cleveland or not., Lebron is from Ohio and clearly loves living there. Why not stick it out like Jordan and win a championship with the team that drafted him instead of going to Wade's team to do so?

    Not to toot the horn of the 2006- 2007 Cavs roster but Zydrunas Ilgauskas was a 2x NBA All Star going into the 07 season was second in scoring and led the team in rebounding averaging near 10 a game!  Drew Gooden was close to averaging a double double that season. Sasha Pavlovic, well he helped. Larry Hughes was NBA all defensive team and lead the NBA in steals going into 06 and did his part to support Lebron on the offensive end. Not the worst roster in the world for the SHAQ of small forwards and the supposed greatest of all time.
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by lonniejoshua:


    c. Owners didn't want to spend any money they were making deep playoff runs on lebron shoulders. The problem he had compared to mj is lebron was too good to fast. It took jordan a while to get a team to/near the finals.....oh yeah and scottie pippen. ....oh yeah and most of the elite players of that era had just retired.


    The question still remains. Whether it sucks to live in Cleveland or not., Lebron is from Ohio and clearly loves living there. Why not stick it out like Jordan and win a championship with the team that drafted him instead of going to Wade's team to do so?

    Not to toot the horn of the 2006- 2007 Cavs roster but Zydrunas Ilgauskas was a 2x NBA All Star going into the 07 season was second in scoring and led the team in rebounding averaging near 10 a game!  Drew Gooden was close to averaging a double double that season. Sasha Pavlovic, well he helped. Larry Hughes was NBA all defensive team and lead the NBA in steals going into 06 and did his part to support Lebron on the offensive end. Not the worst roster in the world for the SHAQ of small forwards and the supposed greatest of all time.
     
    ybet
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    Posted: Jun. 7, 2015 - 7:56 PM ET #20

    Quote Originally Posted by The Hawk:


    Scottie Pippen-Top 50 All-Time & HOF

    Dennis Rodman-Led league in rebounds 7 straight years & HOF

    But, you make a great point..................................not


    I'm a fan of Scottie Pippen but do you honestly think Pippen would be in the HOF, if he wasn't playing with Jordan his entire career?

    Great point about Rodman but he only was there for 3 of Jordan's rings. No comparison but Ben Wallace wasn't too shabby of a defensive player and rebounder himself.
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by The Hawk:


    Scottie Pippen-Top 50 All-Time & HOF

    Dennis Rodman-Led league in rebounds 7 straight years & HOF

    But, you make a great point..................................not


    I'm a fan of Scottie Pippen but do you honestly think Pippen would be in the HOF, if he wasn't playing with Jordan his entire career?

    Great point about Rodman but he only was there for 3 of Jordan's rings. No comparison but Ben Wallace wasn't too shabby of a defensive player and rebounder himself.
     
    The Hawk
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    Posted: Jun. 7, 2015 - 8:11 PM ET #21

    You think MJ wins 6 w/o Scottie Pippen? Considered to be the best "wingman" of all time?

    Somebody smarter than us voted him Top-50 All-Time. 

    The fact that Rodman was there "only" 3 rings reinforces my point. He was a HOFer before he got to Chicago..........

    I'll take the two HOFers, you can have Love and Kyrie..................
    Reply
    You think MJ wins 6 w/o Scottie Pippen? Considered to be the best "wingman" of all time?

    Somebody smarter than us voted him Top-50 All-Time. 

    The fact that Rodman was there "only" 3 rings reinforces my point. He was a HOFer before he got to Chicago..........

    I'll take the two HOFers, you can have Love and Kyrie..................
     
    ybet
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    Posted: Jun. 7, 2015 - 8:27 PM ET #22

    Pippen and Jordan needed each other. Agreed.

    Lebron, Kyrie, and Love along with a strong support cast have no excuse to not win a championship. HOF or not. 3 franchise players and Jr Smith is a ring or bust situation. That's no longer the case, now that Love, and Kyrie are out. Now we will have to see what James can do with the team he has. Honestly its not like they are playing a physically overwhelming team. They need to find a way to win.
    Reply
    Pippen and Jordan needed each other. Agreed.

    Lebron, Kyrie, and Love along with a strong support cast have no excuse to not win a championship. HOF or not. 3 franchise players and Jr Smith is a ring or bust situation. That's no longer the case, now that Love, and Kyrie are out. Now we will have to see what James can do with the team he has. Honestly its not like they are playing a physically overwhelming team. They need to find a way to win.
     
    bunny651
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    Posted: Jun. 7, 2015 - 8:38 PM ET #23

    Quote Originally Posted by The Hawk:

    Injuries or not? 

    You got three All-Stars on your team.

    Two of them get injured..........

    It's on YOU, LeBron!

    Remember when MJ won when Pippen and Rodman were injured? 
    NEVER HAPPENED

    Remember when Bird won when Parish and McHale were injured?
    NEVER HAPPENED

    Remember when The Admiral won when Tim Duncan got injured?
    NEVER HAPPENED

    Injuries happen, just not to the team that wins............funny how that works out, isn't it?

    Let's get ready to hate, because let's face it, LeBron is all they have left, so if they lose, it's his fault. There should be no dropoff whatsoever going from Kyrie Irving to an Australian midget, right?

    Exactly!

    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by The Hawk:

    Injuries or not? 

    You got three All-Stars on your team.

    Two of them get injured..........

    It's on YOU, LeBron!

    Remember when MJ won when Pippen and Rodman were injured? 
    NEVER HAPPENED

    Remember when Bird won when Parish and McHale were injured?
    NEVER HAPPENED

    Remember when The Admiral won when Tim Duncan got injured?
    NEVER HAPPENED

    Injuries happen, just not to the team that wins............funny how that works out, isn't it?

    Let's get ready to hate, because let's face it, LeBron is all they have left, so if they lose, it's his fault. There should be no dropoff whatsoever going from Kyrie Irving to an Australian midget, right?

    Exactly!

     
    ybet
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    Posted: Jun. 7, 2015 - 10:38 PM ET #24

    So answer this question everyone? Is Lebron's team good enough to help him win now? It sure doesn't look like he's doing it all by himself.
    Reply
    So answer this question everyone? Is Lebron's team good enough to help him win now? It sure doesn't look like he's doing it all by himself.
     
     
    melossinglet
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    Posted: Jun. 7, 2015 - 10:39 PM ET #25

    Quote Originally Posted by ybet:



    I'm a fan of Scottie Pippen but do you honestly think Pippen would be in the HOF, if he wasn't playing with Jordan his entire career?

    Great point about Rodman but he only was there for 3 of Jordan's rings. No comparison but Ben Wallace wasn't too shabby of a defensive player and rebounder himself.



    youre insane,pippen is easily a hall of famer in his own rite..check that mans body of work and also check wat he did to carry that weak as.s bulls team the season that jordan sat out.
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by ybet:



    I'm a fan of Scottie Pippen but do you honestly think Pippen would be in the HOF, if he wasn't playing with Jordan his entire career?

    Great point about Rodman but he only was there for 3 of Jordan's rings. No comparison but Ben Wallace wasn't too shabby of a defensive player and rebounder himself.



    youre insane,pippen is easily a hall of famer in his own rite..check that mans body of work and also check wat he did to carry that weak as.s bulls team the season that jordan sat out.
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