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    All Forums | General Discussion

    If Christ died on the cross for all of humanity

    «First Previous 404142 ... 213214215 Next Last»
    SYSTEM
    archsage
    KittyKatz286
    cave0707
    Quantum_Leap
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    SYSTEM
    SYSTEM
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    Posted: Oct. 31, 2011 - 5:46 PM ET #976

    Quote Originally Posted by SirJohnDrake:

    Sister system is just a confused gal...lol She is just being her normal self by spewing out inconsistent illogical explanations...in a nut shell that's a very good description of that confused gal...lol


    Ha Ha I get it, you're trying to call me a girl. Soooooooo clever 

    Please point out one inconsistent illogical explanation I've presented. I'll be waiting...


    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by SirJohnDrake:

    Sister system is just a confused gal...lol She is just being her normal self by spewing out inconsistent illogical explanations...in a nut shell that's a very good description of that confused gal...lol


    Ha Ha I get it, you're trying to call me a girl. Soooooooo clever 

    Please point out one inconsistent illogical explanation I've presented. I'll be waiting...


     
    SYSTEM
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    Posted: Oct. 31, 2011 - 6:10 PM ET #977

    Quote Originally Posted by archsage:

    Just to point out a single thing concerning your single "fact". You said, and I quote:
    • ...FACT that it is very improbable to die on the same day (friday) as you are placed on the cross.
    You do understand that the Christ was not just "placed on the cross", but tortured way before then, thus putting him in a near fatal state long before he even started walking down la Via Dolorosa? You also understand that the guy was pierced in his side by a Roman officer with a lance while he was still upon the Cross, right?

    Or did you just conveniently "forget" those?

    I'll repeat what I said again, if there is any kind of action I dislike more than anything, is the complete distortion of reality to suit some sort of worldview  -- something that only embraces unnecessary anti-intellectualism and encourages ignorance. It's the same foolishness that the European "Catholics" used to deceive Christians into fighting in pointless wars for a "pope", it's the same foolishness that politicians used to trick into voting them into unparallelled governmental power, it's the same foolishness atheistic naturalists use into creating superficial "schisms" between a person's faith and scientific phenomena and thus crippling the scientific community as a whole, it's the same foolishness many super-fundamentalist Christians use when they reject every thing that comes out of scientific academia, and it's the same foolishness that you are attempting to blaspheme the intelligence of posters here with.

    Either post with intellectual honesty or don't bother posting at all.

    Please list your sources outside of the bible. 
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by archsage:

    Just to point out a single thing concerning your single "fact". You said, and I quote:
    • ...FACT that it is very improbable to die on the same day (friday) as you are placed on the cross.
    You do understand that the Christ was not just "placed on the cross", but tortured way before then, thus putting him in a near fatal state long before he even started walking down la Via Dolorosa? You also understand that the guy was pierced in his side by a Roman officer with a lance while he was still upon the Cross, right?

    Or did you just conveniently "forget" those?

    I'll repeat what I said again, if there is any kind of action I dislike more than anything, is the complete distortion of reality to suit some sort of worldview  -- something that only embraces unnecessary anti-intellectualism and encourages ignorance. It's the same foolishness that the European "Catholics" used to deceive Christians into fighting in pointless wars for a "pope", it's the same foolishness that politicians used to trick into voting them into unparallelled governmental power, it's the same foolishness atheistic naturalists use into creating superficial "schisms" between a person's faith and scientific phenomena and thus crippling the scientific community as a whole, it's the same foolishness many super-fundamentalist Christians use when they reject every thing that comes out of scientific academia, and it's the same foolishness that you are attempting to blaspheme the intelligence of posters here with.

    Either post with intellectual honesty or don't bother posting at all.

    Please list your sources outside of the bible. 
     
    archsage
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    Posted: Oct. 31, 2011 - 9:13 PM ET #978

    Quote Originally Posted by SYSTEM:


    Please list your sources outside of the bible. 


    Why should I do that? If you reject the use of any text used to notify the death of an individual whose death would otherwise not be recorded as he'd be seen as an average usurper, then how would you expect me to rationally provide an adequate response? How dishonest of you.

    Not only is that academically dishonest, but it would also be incoherent given that Quantum_Leap uses the bible as a source for his argument. If you want to invalidate certain Biblical texts as a source, you'd have to (by the same criteria) discredit every single other source of antiquity.

    If you reject historical documents then how am I to prove history to you? i suppose I couldn't even prove to you the existence of Julius Caesar or Attila the Hun...
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by SYSTEM:


    Please list your sources outside of the bible. 


    Why should I do that? If you reject the use of any text used to notify the death of an individual whose death would otherwise not be recorded as he'd be seen as an average usurper, then how would you expect me to rationally provide an adequate response? How dishonest of you.

    Not only is that academically dishonest, but it would also be incoherent given that Quantum_Leap uses the bible as a source for his argument. If you want to invalidate certain Biblical texts as a source, you'd have to (by the same criteria) discredit every single other source of antiquity.

    If you reject historical documents then how am I to prove history to you? i suppose I couldn't even prove to you the existence of Julius Caesar or Attila the Hun...
     
    KittyKatz286
    KittyKatz286
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    Posted: Oct. 31, 2011 - 9:51 PM ET #979

    The problem is by that same logic, I can use Harry Potter to source the existence of magic. But surely you wouldn't permit me to use Harry Potter as a credible source?
    Reply
    The problem is by that same logic, I can use Harry Potter to source the existence of magic. But surely you wouldn't permit me to use Harry Potter as a credible source?
     
    archsage
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    Posted: Oct. 31, 2011 - 10:23 PM ET #980

    Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:

    The problem is by that same logic, I can use Harry Potter to source the existence of magic. But surely you wouldn't permit me to use Harry Potter as a credible source?


    By the same logic, you could not prove the existence of Alexander the Great, Hannibal, Attila the Hun, Julius Caesar, King Nebuchadnezzar, etc., or any other individual of antiquity.

    Or else, go ahead and prove their existence. But you can't use any sources of people who claimed to know them, or saw them. Don't you see how academically screwed such a thinking is? No one in serious academia holds to such scrutiny when it comes to historicity of subjects. Else nothing beyond the scope of one's own life could be rationally believed.

    In any event, KittyKatz, I've had very substantial responses to you in post #966 that you may have overlooked. I'd love to continue our discussion, if you are willing.
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:

    The problem is by that same logic, I can use Harry Potter to source the existence of magic. But surely you wouldn't permit me to use Harry Potter as a credible source?


    By the same logic, you could not prove the existence of Alexander the Great, Hannibal, Attila the Hun, Julius Caesar, King Nebuchadnezzar, etc., or any other individual of antiquity.

    Or else, go ahead and prove their existence. But you can't use any sources of people who claimed to know them, or saw them. Don't you see how academically screwed such a thinking is? No one in serious academia holds to such scrutiny when it comes to historicity of subjects. Else nothing beyond the scope of one's own life could be rationally believed.

    In any event, KittyKatz, I've had very substantial responses to you in post #966 that you may have overlooked. I'd love to continue our discussion, if you are willing.
     
    archsage
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    Posted: Oct. 31, 2011 - 10:24 PM ET #981

    Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:

    The problem is by that same logic, I can use Harry Potter to source the existence of magic. But surely you wouldn't permit me to use Harry Potter as a credible source?


    Just as another aside, what, exactly, is magic anyways?
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:

    The problem is by that same logic, I can use Harry Potter to source the existence of magic. But surely you wouldn't permit me to use Harry Potter as a credible source?


    Just as another aside, what, exactly, is magic anyways?
     
    cave0707
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    Posted: Oct. 31, 2011 - 10:30 PM ET #982

    and this thread is still going ... and going ....
    Reply
    and this thread is still going ... and going ....
     
    KittyKatz286
    KittyKatz286
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    Posted: Oct. 31, 2011 - 10:44 PM ET #983

    Magic is basically anything that defies the laws of physics
    Reply
    Magic is basically anything that defies the laws of physics
     
    Quantum_Leap
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    Posted: Nov. 1, 2011 - 3:49 AM ET #984

    people, get a life
    Reply
    people, get a life
     
    KittyKatz286
    KittyKatz286
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    Posted: Nov. 1, 2011 - 11:59 AM ET #985

    I'm sorry that having a discussion on a discussion board upsets you.
    Reply
    I'm sorry that having a discussion on a discussion board upsets you.
     
    E-Muffin
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    Posted: Nov. 1, 2011 - 1:56 PM ET #986

    Quote Originally Posted by archsage:



    By the same logic, you could not prove the existence of Alexander the Great, Hannibal, Attila the Hun, Julius Caesar, King Nebuchadnezzar, etc., or any other individual of antiquity.

    Or else, go ahead and prove their existence. But you can't use any sources of people who claimed to know them, or saw them. Don't you see how academically screwed such a thinking is? No one in serious academia holds to such scrutiny when it comes to historicity of subjects. Else nothing beyond the scope of one's own life could be rationally believed.

    In any event, KittyKatz, I've had very substantial responses to you in post #966 that you may have overlooked. I'd love to continue our discussion, if you are willing.

    WAY off base!! There are historical facts and actual evidence that these existed. With Jesus there is no conclusive evidence to back the literal interpretation of the Bible. I ask again because nobody answered my question a few weeks ago. How is there no evidence of the supposed most important and influential man in history and the son of God. No writings during his time, he was a carpenter.....nobody saved any of his things?? I would think anything the guy touched would be a hot commodity....yet nothing exists. Yet, other animals and people of no importance from much older times of history we have evidence of. I would love to hear how this is even possible......yet I keep seeing some of you on here say "prove to me he didn't exist"........well this is a pretty darn good start. Quit turning things around and do your part and prove he existed. The only logical reason you keep turning it around is because the fact is you CAN'T prove he even existed....yet there is much more evidence and logic that suggests he didn't exist.

    Reply

    Quote Originally Posted by archsage:



    By the same logic, you could not prove the existence of Alexander the Great, Hannibal, Attila the Hun, Julius Caesar, King Nebuchadnezzar, etc., or any other individual of antiquity.

    Or else, go ahead and prove their existence. But you can't use any sources of people who claimed to know them, or saw them. Don't you see how academically screwed such a thinking is? No one in serious academia holds to such scrutiny when it comes to historicity of subjects. Else nothing beyond the scope of one's own life could be rationally believed.

    In any event, KittyKatz, I've had very substantial responses to you in post #966 that you may have overlooked. I'd love to continue our discussion, if you are willing.

    WAY off base!! There are historical facts and actual evidence that these existed. With Jesus there is no conclusive evidence to back the literal interpretation of the Bible. I ask again because nobody answered my question a few weeks ago. How is there no evidence of the supposed most important and influential man in history and the son of God. No writings during his time, he was a carpenter.....nobody saved any of his things?? I would think anything the guy touched would be a hot commodity....yet nothing exists. Yet, other animals and people of no importance from much older times of history we have evidence of. I would love to hear how this is even possible......yet I keep seeing some of you on here say "prove to me he didn't exist"........well this is a pretty darn good start. Quit turning things around and do your part and prove he existed. The only logical reason you keep turning it around is because the fact is you CAN'T prove he even existed....yet there is much more evidence and logic that suggests he didn't exist.

     
    SirJohnDrake
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    Posted: Nov. 1, 2011 - 6:01 PM ET #987

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Muffin:

    I ask again because nobody answered my question a few weeks ago.

    If you look on pg. 28 #690 you will see I answered your question on the 23rd of Oct. just 2 days after you posted your question. Now go back to pg. 28 if you want to read my answer.

    Now if you are going to be involved in discussions here I suggest you pay more attention to what's going on, because who wants to keep answering the same questions over and over. You are like the system, she always asks the same question over and over no matter how many times we answer it...lol

    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by E-Muffin:

    I ask again because nobody answered my question a few weeks ago.

    If you look on pg. 28 #690 you will see I answered your question on the 23rd of Oct. just 2 days after you posted your question. Now go back to pg. 28 if you want to read my answer.

    Now if you are going to be involved in discussions here I suggest you pay more attention to what's going on, because who wants to keep answering the same questions over and over. You are like the system, she always asks the same question over and over no matter how many times we answer it...lol

     
    SYSTEM
    SYSTEM
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    Posted: Nov. 1, 2011 - 6:09 PM ET #988

    Quote Originally Posted by SirJohnDrake:

    If you look on pg. 28 #690 you will see I answered your question on the 23rd of Oct. just 2 days after you posted your question. Now go back to pg. 28 if you want to read my answer.

    Now if you are going to be involved in discussions here I suggest you pay more attention to what's going on, because who wants to keep answering the same questions over and over. You are like the system, she always asks the same question over and over no matter how many times we answer it...lol


    that's because I never get an answer, only circular reasoning... 
    the bible is the word of god, the bible tells us so, the bible is infallible, the bible is the word of god, the bible tells us so, the bible is infallible 

    sdj answers 
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by SirJohnDrake:

    If you look on pg. 28 #690 you will see I answered your question on the 23rd of Oct. just 2 days after you posted your question. Now go back to pg. 28 if you want to read my answer.

    Now if you are going to be involved in discussions here I suggest you pay more attention to what's going on, because who wants to keep answering the same questions over and over. You are like the system, she always asks the same question over and over no matter how many times we answer it...lol


    that's because I never get an answer, only circular reasoning... 
    the bible is the word of god, the bible tells us so, the bible is infallible, the bible is the word of god, the bible tells us so, the bible is infallible 

    sdj answers 
     
    SirJohnDrake
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    Posted: Nov. 1, 2011 - 6:53 PM ET #989

    Quote Originally Posted by archsage:



    Why should I do that? If you reject the use of any text used to notify the death of an individual whose death would otherwise not be recorded as he'd be seen as an average usurper, then how would you expect me to rationally provide an adequate response? How dishonest of you.

    Not only is that academically dishonest, but it would also be incoherent given that Quantum_Leap uses the bible as a source for his argument. If you want to invalidate certain Biblical texts as a source, you'd have to (by the same criteria) discredit every single other source of antiquity.

    If you reject historical documents then how am I to prove history to you? i suppose I couldn't even prove to you the existence of Julius Caesar or Attila the Hun...

    Reply

    Quote Originally Posted by archsage:



    Why should I do that? If you reject the use of any text used to notify the death of an individual whose death would otherwise not be recorded as he'd be seen as an average usurper, then how would you expect me to rationally provide an adequate response? How dishonest of you.

    Not only is that academically dishonest, but it would also be incoherent given that Quantum_Leap uses the bible as a source for his argument. If you want to invalidate certain Biblical texts as a source, you'd have to (by the same criteria) discredit every single other source of antiquity.

    If you reject historical documents then how am I to prove history to you? i suppose I couldn't even prove to you the existence of Julius Caesar or Attila the Hun...

     
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    Posted: Nov. 1, 2011 - 7:33 PM ET #990

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Muffin:

    WAY off base!! There are historical facts and actual evidence that these existed. With Jesus there is no conclusive evidence to back the literal interpretation of the Bible. I ask again because nobody answered my question a few weeks ago. How is there no evidence of the supposed most important and influential man in history and the son of God. No writings during his time, he was a carpenter.....nobody saved any of his things?? I would think anything the guy touched would be a hot commodity....yet nothing exists. Yet, other animals and people of no importance from much older times of history we have evidence of. I would love to hear how this is even possible......yet I keep seeing some of you on here say "prove to me he didn't exist"........well this is a pretty darn good start. Quit turning things around and do your part and prove he existed. The only logical reason you keep turning it around is because the fact is you CAN'T prove he even existed....yet there is much more evidence and logic that suggests he didn't exist.

    Yet just after Jesus died, there was an explosion in Christianity and the number of Christian churches.....pretty strange occurence if Jesus never existed.........

    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by E-Muffin:

    WAY off base!! There are historical facts and actual evidence that these existed. With Jesus there is no conclusive evidence to back the literal interpretation of the Bible. I ask again because nobody answered my question a few weeks ago. How is there no evidence of the supposed most important and influential man in history and the son of God. No writings during his time, he was a carpenter.....nobody saved any of his things?? I would think anything the guy touched would be a hot commodity....yet nothing exists. Yet, other animals and people of no importance from much older times of history we have evidence of. I would love to hear how this is even possible......yet I keep seeing some of you on here say "prove to me he didn't exist"........well this is a pretty darn good start. Quit turning things around and do your part and prove he existed. The only logical reason you keep turning it around is because the fact is you CAN'T prove he even existed....yet there is much more evidence and logic that suggests he didn't exist.

    Yet just after Jesus died, there was an explosion in Christianity and the number of Christian churches.....pretty strange occurence if Jesus never existed.........

     
    ABooksNightmare
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    Posted: Nov. 1, 2011 - 8:05 PM ET #991

    God reached out and told me to tell all of you to stop this shit.....the guy is trying to be low key and here you all go with a 40 page thread about em....

     

     

    God has spoken.....You shall listen or you will have sinned....

    COVERS allows u to tell someone they are sexually frustrated so long as ur hands are clean
    Reply

    God reached out and told me to tell all of you to stop this shit.....the guy is trying to be low key and here you all go with a 40 page thread about em....

     

     

    God has spoken.....You shall listen or you will have sinned....

     
    houguy28
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    Posted: Nov. 1, 2011 - 8:33 PM ET #992

    Quote Originally Posted by ad1260:

    These threads never end...believe what you want and carry on 
    Grown men acting like high school girls, especially the atheists.
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by ad1260:

    These threads never end...believe what you want and carry on 
    Grown men acting like high school girls, especially the atheists.
     
    houguy28
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    Posted: Nov. 1, 2011 - 8:35 PM ET #993

    Quote Originally Posted by Quantum_Leap:

    people, get a life
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by Quantum_Leap:

    people, get a life
     
    Droxside
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    Posted: Nov. 1, 2011 - 9:07 PM ET #994

    Quote Originally Posted by archsage:

    Just to point out a single thing concerning your single "fact". You said, and I quote:
    • ...FACT that it is very improbable to die on the same day (friday) as you are placed on the cross.
    You do understand that the Christ was not just "placed on the cross", but tortured way before then, thus putting him in a near fatal state long before he even started walking down la Via Dolorosa? You also understand that the guy was pierced in his side by a Roman officer with a lance while he was still upon the Cross, right?

    Or did you just conveniently "forget" those?

    I'll repeat what I said again, if there is any kind of action I dislike more than anything, is the complete distortion of reality to suit some sort of worldview  -- something that only embraces unnecessary anti-intellectualism and encourages ignorance. It's the same foolishness that the European "Catholics" used to deceive Christians into fighting in pointless wars for a "pope", it's the same foolishness that politicians used to trick into voting them into unparallelled governmental power, it's the same foolishness atheistic naturalists use into creating superficial "schisms" between a person's faith and scientific phenomena and thus crippling the scientific community as a whole, it's the same foolishness many super-fundamentalist Christians use when they reject every thing that comes out of scientific academia, and it's the same foolishness that you are attempting to blaspheme the intelligence of posters here with.

    Either post with intellectual honesty or don't bother posting at all.


    Very impressive. Thank you for stating what so many miss, you are spot on in every since...
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by archsage:

    Just to point out a single thing concerning your single "fact". You said, and I quote:
    • ...FACT that it is very improbable to die on the same day (friday) as you are placed on the cross.
    You do understand that the Christ was not just "placed on the cross", but tortured way before then, thus putting him in a near fatal state long before he even started walking down la Via Dolorosa? You also understand that the guy was pierced in his side by a Roman officer with a lance while he was still upon the Cross, right?

    Or did you just conveniently "forget" those?

    I'll repeat what I said again, if there is any kind of action I dislike more than anything, is the complete distortion of reality to suit some sort of worldview  -- something that only embraces unnecessary anti-intellectualism and encourages ignorance. It's the same foolishness that the European "Catholics" used to deceive Christians into fighting in pointless wars for a "pope", it's the same foolishness that politicians used to trick into voting them into unparallelled governmental power, it's the same foolishness atheistic naturalists use into creating superficial "schisms" between a person's faith and scientific phenomena and thus crippling the scientific community as a whole, it's the same foolishness many super-fundamentalist Christians use when they reject every thing that comes out of scientific academia, and it's the same foolishness that you are attempting to blaspheme the intelligence of posters here with.

    Either post with intellectual honesty or don't bother posting at all.


    Very impressive. Thank you for stating what so many miss, you are spot on in every since...
     
    Droxside
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    Posted: Nov. 1, 2011 - 9:21 PM ET #995

    Christianity is the largest cult in the U.S...The fact that Christians do not realize that they are brainwashed from birth as my 95 year old grand mother foolishly believes when she dies she will actually be going to this fantasy place. The sad fact is that she gets barely enough from social security to pay her bills, yet the first check she writes on the 3rd each month is for 10% of her $662 social security check. I make sure she is taken care of, but how sad a religion takes advantage of people like this, taking money based on a faith that is impossible to prove. As I said before, no one here is over 100 years old within reason, you are going by here say, that cannot be debated by anyone who is rational or not brainwashed as so common with cults.

    While I am at it has anyone watched the Jim Bakker show lately, it would be funny if not so sad. The gut is selling can good packets ans "annointed" bottled water for the end of times upon us for a mere $1000...Take 10 minutes, find his show and watch a true showman at work. He rivals Benny Hinn and several other con artists, only they are better at making it seem real, he is really getting old and losing his touch... 

    While
    Reply
    Christianity is the largest cult in the U.S...The fact that Christians do not realize that they are brainwashed from birth as my 95 year old grand mother foolishly believes when she dies she will actually be going to this fantasy place. The sad fact is that she gets barely enough from social security to pay her bills, yet the first check she writes on the 3rd each month is for 10% of her $662 social security check. I make sure she is taken care of, but how sad a religion takes advantage of people like this, taking money based on a faith that is impossible to prove. As I said before, no one here is over 100 years old within reason, you are going by here say, that cannot be debated by anyone who is rational or not brainwashed as so common with cults.

    While I am at it has anyone watched the Jim Bakker show lately, it would be funny if not so sad. The gut is selling can good packets ans "annointed" bottled water for the end of times upon us for a mere $1000...Take 10 minutes, find his show and watch a true showman at work. He rivals Benny Hinn and several other con artists, only they are better at making it seem real, he is really getting old and losing his touch... 

    While
     
    Rostos
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    Posted: Nov. 1, 2011 - 10:52 PM ET #996

    Quote Originally Posted by Droxside:

    Christianity is the largest cult in the U.S...The fact that Christians do not realize that they are brainwashed from birth as my 95 year old grand mother foolishly believes when she dies she will actually be going to this fantasy place. The sad fact is that she gets barely enough from social security to pay her bills, yet the first check she writes on the 3rd each month is for 10% of her $662 social security check. I make sure she is taken care of, but how sad a religion takes advantage of people like this, taking money based on a faith that is impossible to prove. As I said before, no one here is over 100 years old within reason, you are going by here say, that cannot be debated by anyone who is rational or not brainwashed as so common with cults.

    While I am at it has anyone watched the Jim Bakker show lately, it would be funny if not so sad. The gut is selling can good packets ans "annointed" bottled water for the end of times upon us for a mere $1000...Take 10 minutes, find his show and watch a true showman at work. He rivals Benny Hinn and several other con artists, only they are better at making it seem real, he is really getting old and losing his touch... 

    While

    And what about people who never believed until there early 20's, 30's etc etc....

    Where is your brainwashed from birth argument there?

    Reply

    Quote Originally Posted by Droxside:

    Christianity is the largest cult in the U.S...The fact that Christians do not realize that they are brainwashed from birth as my 95 year old grand mother foolishly believes when she dies she will actually be going to this fantasy place. The sad fact is that she gets barely enough from social security to pay her bills, yet the first check she writes on the 3rd each month is for 10% of her $662 social security check. I make sure she is taken care of, but how sad a religion takes advantage of people like this, taking money based on a faith that is impossible to prove. As I said before, no one here is over 100 years old within reason, you are going by here say, that cannot be debated by anyone who is rational or not brainwashed as so common with cults.

    While I am at it has anyone watched the Jim Bakker show lately, it would be funny if not so sad. The gut is selling can good packets ans "annointed" bottled water for the end of times upon us for a mere $1000...Take 10 minutes, find his show and watch a true showman at work. He rivals Benny Hinn and several other con artists, only they are better at making it seem real, he is really getting old and losing his touch... 

    While

    And what about people who never believed until there early 20's, 30's etc etc....

    Where is your brainwashed from birth argument there?

     
    archsage
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    Posted: Nov. 1, 2011 - 11:02 PM ET #997

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Muffin:

    WAY off base!! There are historical facts and actual evidence that these existed.


    With Jesus there is no conclusive evidence to back the literal interpretation of the Bible. I ask again because nobody answered my question a few weeks ago. How is there no evidence of the supposed most important and influential man in history and the son of God. No writings during his time, he was a carpenter.....nobody saved any of his things?? I would think anything the guy touched would be a hot commodity....yet nothing exists. Yet, other animals and people of no importance from much older times of history we have evidence of. I would love to hear how this is even possible......yet I keep seeing some of you on here say "prove to me he didn't exist"........well this is a pretty darn good start. Quit turning things around and do your part and prove he existed. The only logical reason you keep turning it around is because the fact is you CAN'T prove he even existed....yet there is much more evidence and logic that suggests he didn't exist.



    I've isolated and put into bold the part of your post that really needs to be analyzed. Can you justify that initial premise of yours?
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by E-Muffin:

    WAY off base!! There are historical facts and actual evidence that these existed.


    With Jesus there is no conclusive evidence to back the literal interpretation of the Bible. I ask again because nobody answered my question a few weeks ago. How is there no evidence of the supposed most important and influential man in history and the son of God. No writings during his time, he was a carpenter.....nobody saved any of his things?? I would think anything the guy touched would be a hot commodity....yet nothing exists. Yet, other animals and people of no importance from much older times of history we have evidence of. I would love to hear how this is even possible......yet I keep seeing some of you on here say "prove to me he didn't exist"........well this is a pretty darn good start. Quit turning things around and do your part and prove he existed. The only logical reason you keep turning it around is because the fact is you CAN'T prove he even existed....yet there is much more evidence and logic that suggests he didn't exist.



    I've isolated and put into bold the part of your post that really needs to be analyzed. Can you justify that initial premise of yours?
     
    archsage
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    Posted: Nov. 1, 2011 - 11:11 PM ET #998

    Quote Originally Posted by Droxside:

    Christianity is the largest cult in the U.S...The fact that Christians do not realize that they are brainwashed from birth...


    I really, really wanted to take you seriously. But rhetoric like this is very disheartening to hear. First you say that Christianity is the largest cult in the US. So far, you could be validated. You could even extend your post and say that Christianity is perhaps the largest cult in the world (depending, of course, upon the connotative and denotative meanings inflected on the term "cult").

    Where your post begins to err rhetorically, is the second premise:
    • Christians are brainwashed from birth
    Not only is this is logically invalid (as it is logically false to state that ?x((C(x)?B(x)), where x=a person, C(x)=x is a Christian, and B(x)=x was brainwashed from birth into Christianity), but it is also very misleading.

    Are you meaning to say that teaching children things from when they are very young is brainwashing, and therefore wrong? Is teaching our children mathematics from birth, brainwashing? Again, this seems to be another example of intellectual dishonesty -- you would reject one instance of a certain procedure, but you would accept another instance of the same procedure. I would argue it to be quite hypocritical.
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by Droxside:

    Christianity is the largest cult in the U.S...The fact that Christians do not realize that they are brainwashed from birth...


    I really, really wanted to take you seriously. But rhetoric like this is very disheartening to hear. First you say that Christianity is the largest cult in the US. So far, you could be validated. You could even extend your post and say that Christianity is perhaps the largest cult in the world (depending, of course, upon the connotative and denotative meanings inflected on the term "cult").

    Where your post begins to err rhetorically, is the second premise:
    • Christians are brainwashed from birth
    Not only is this is logically invalid (as it is logically false to state that ?x((C(x)?B(x)), where x=a person, C(x)=x is a Christian, and B(x)=x was brainwashed from birth into Christianity), but it is also very misleading.

    Are you meaning to say that teaching children things from when they are very young is brainwashing, and therefore wrong? Is teaching our children mathematics from birth, brainwashing? Again, this seems to be another example of intellectual dishonesty -- you would reject one instance of a certain procedure, but you would accept another instance of the same procedure. I would argue it to be quite hypocritical.
     
    archsage
    archsage
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    Posted: Nov. 1, 2011 - 11:20 PM ET #999

    I'm sorry, it looks like these forums do not allow for any other characters to be posted besides the typical ASCII language. Therefore the logic displayed in post #999 displayed question marks instead of the actual logical quantifiers and operators. Let me then go over it again:

    • ?x((C(x)?B(x)
    The first question mark was to be the logical quantifier "For all", which is symbolized as an upside down "A", which is available in Unicode but not in ASCII.

    The second question mark was to be the logical operator "if-then", which is symbolized by something looking like an arrow pointing to the right, kind of like "-->", again something that is available in Unicode but not ASCII.

    All in all the logical sentence would be rendered into plain english as the following:
    • For every person X, if X is a Christian then X was brainwashed from birth into Christianity
    This argument is quite obviously false, which is what I was trying to say. Again, I'm sorry that I didn't realize these forums only accepted ASCII characters.
    Reply
    I'm sorry, it looks like these forums do not allow for any other characters to be posted besides the typical ASCII language. Therefore the logic displayed in post #999 displayed question marks instead of the actual logical quantifiers and operators. Let me then go over it again:

    • ?x((C(x)?B(x)
    The first question mark was to be the logical quantifier "For all", which is symbolized as an upside down "A", which is available in Unicode but not in ASCII.

    The second question mark was to be the logical operator "if-then", which is symbolized by something looking like an arrow pointing to the right, kind of like "-->", again something that is available in Unicode but not ASCII.

    All in all the logical sentence would be rendered into plain english as the following:
    • For every person X, if X is a Christian then X was brainwashed from birth into Christianity
    This argument is quite obviously false, which is what I was trying to say. Again, I'm sorry that I didn't realize these forums only accepted ASCII characters.
     
     
    SirJohnDrake
    SirJohnDrake
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    Posted: Nov. 1, 2011 - 11:35 PM ET #1000

    Quote Originally Posted by Droxside:

    Christianity is the largest cult in the U.S...The fact that Christians do not realize that they are brainwashed from birth as my 95 year old grand mother foolishly believes when she dies she will actually be going to this fantasy place.

    I wholeheartedly disagree with you, Biblical-based Christianity is not a cult and does not support the use of cultic practices. When people say that a religious group is a cult, they typically mean that it has one or more of the following characteristics: 1. Overly aggressive recruitment/evangelization. 2. False/deceptive teaching including hyperexclusivism. Prior to the beginning of the group, everyone was lost, condemned, without any true knowledge. Only a very small exclusive set of people will be saved and enter heaven. 3. Use of brainwashing techniques, including: Questioning of the group's teaching of leadership forbidden. Isolation (physical or forced isolation, or encouragement to break contact with family and friends). Sleep deprivation and other abusive practices. 4. Financial exploitation of members, that ultimately profiting the leaders. 5. Emotional exploitation of young adults, the elderly, etc.

    Unfortunately, there are Christian and pseudo-Christian individuals and groups who exhibit one or more of the above characteristics but the reality is Biblical-based Christianity is not a cult and does not support the use of cultic practices.

    1. Overly aggressive evangelization

    There are many Christians who are too aggressive in their attempts to share their faith, not to mention times in history when people were forcibly converted. Yet forced evangelism and/or conversion are not supported by the Bible. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience. (1 Pet. 3:15-16)

    When Jesus sent his disciples out to preach, he told them to leave towns that didn't welcome them. When the disciples wanted to punish a town that rejected Him, rather than accepting their offer, He rebuked them.

    2. False teaching: Hyperexclusivism

    Of course, whether or not basic Christianity is true or false is a topic of much debate, but one can provide many reasons to believe in its truth. However, when any group claims to have an exclusive hold on truth, we tend to immediately doubt the claims of that group as is the case here on this thread here at covers.

    Does Christianity make such a claim? It does claim that Jesus is the only way to God, but it also claims that this path is available to everyone and has been taken by people throughout all of history. It does not restrict membership in heaven to a certain number of people, a certain ethnic race, or those who joined a very specific church or denomination. Nor does it claim that before the appearance of Jesus (or Abraham or Moses), no one had any access to truth or knowledge of God.

    3. Brainwashing

    Does Christianity forbid asking hard questions about its doctrines? Again, while some individual Christians have frowned on skeptics, inquisitive children and others who ask hard questions, this is not something prohibited by the Bible, but rather encouraged by it. Jesus not only answered questions from his disciples and nonbelievers, he even brought up a hard question of his own: Then Jesus presented them with a question. "Why is it that the Messiah is said to be the son of David? For David himself wrote in the book of Psalms: The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit in the place of honor at my right hand until I humble your enemies, making them a footstool under your feet." Since David called the Messiah 'Lord,' how can the Messiah be his son?" (Luke 20:41-44)

    Does Christianity forbid questioning of its leaders and their doctrine or behavior? While the Bible does teach respect for authority figures, it also teaches that all people fall short of perfection. Accusations can be brought against church leaders, if there is a reasonable amount of evidence.

    Does Christianity promote isolation of Christians from nonbelievers and their views? While the Bible does caution against being influenced by the evils present in society, it doesn't advocate isolation from society, but rather says that believers ought to participate in society in order to influence it.

    Finally, it should go without saying that Christianity is opposed to all forms of physical and emotional abuse. Not only is one of the central tenents of Christianity to love other people as one loves oneself, the Bible also teaches that harming another person is harming someone created by God and loved by God and is comparable to harming God himself.

    4. Financial exploitation

    Unfortunately, there are Christian organizations whose primary focus is fundraising and who may even resort to deception in order to line the pockets of their leaders. This practice is directly opposed to the teachings of the Bible, which condemns greed and trusting in wealth, giving under compulsion and exploitation of the poor. Despite what such organizations might claim, the Bible doesn't promise material riches to those who follow God or make large donations.

    The apostle Paul explained his attitude towards profiting from his preaching in 1 Corinthians 9:11-18. While pastors and missionaries do have a right to be paid for their work, he voluntarily waived this right so that people wouldn't think he was motivated by greed.

    5. Emotional exploitation

    Do Christians target young adults, the elderly and others who might be vulnerable to exploitation? Christians often do focus evangelistic efforts on a particular segment of society. Is this exploitation? It might be if the evangelists used some of the techniques listed above to bully or deceive their audience, or if their teaching is false and ultimately harmful.

    However, the question assumes that evangelization in general, and Christianity in particular, is harmful, which is not necessarily the case. If Christianity is true, then becoming a Christian is not harmful, but is beneficial in many ways. Since Christianity does fulfill needs, it should be no surprise that people with deeply felt needs are often the ones who become Christians.

    If Christians are following Biblical principles when evangelizing, then they are letting people know in a gentle and respectful manner that God cares for them and is able to meet their needs. This is no more exploitive than a food pantry or homeless shelter advertising its services to those it was intended to provide for. Just as churches and religious groups may be exploitive, a homeless shelter could be abusive by harrassing people on the streets, bullying them to come inside and then prohibiting them from leaving. The fact that such an organization can be abusive doesn't mean that all such organizations are abusive or that having such organizations is a bad idea.

    Reply

    Quote Originally Posted by Droxside:

    Christianity is the largest cult in the U.S...The fact that Christians do not realize that they are brainwashed from birth as my 95 year old grand mother foolishly believes when she dies she will actually be going to this fantasy place.

    I wholeheartedly disagree with you, Biblical-based Christianity is not a cult and does not support the use of cultic practices. When people say that a religious group is a cult, they typically mean that it has one or more of the following characteristics: 1. Overly aggressive recruitment/evangelization. 2. False/deceptive teaching including hyperexclusivism. Prior to the beginning of the group, everyone was lost, condemned, without any true knowledge. Only a very small exclusive set of people will be saved and enter heaven. 3. Use of brainwashing techniques, including: Questioning of the group's teaching of leadership forbidden. Isolation (physical or forced isolation, or encouragement to break contact with family and friends). Sleep deprivation and other abusive practices. 4. Financial exploitation of members, that ultimately profiting the leaders. 5. Emotional exploitation of young adults, the elderly, etc.

    Unfortunately, there are Christian and pseudo-Christian individuals and groups who exhibit one or more of the above characteristics but the reality is Biblical-based Christianity is not a cult and does not support the use of cultic practices.

    1. Overly aggressive evangelization

    There are many Christians who are too aggressive in their attempts to share their faith, not to mention times in history when people were forcibly converted. Yet forced evangelism and/or conversion are not supported by the Bible. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience. (1 Pet. 3:15-16)

    When Jesus sent his disciples out to preach, he told them to leave towns that didn't welcome them. When the disciples wanted to punish a town that rejected Him, rather than accepting their offer, He rebuked them.

    2. False teaching: Hyperexclusivism

    Of course, whether or not basic Christianity is true or false is a topic of much debate, but one can provide many reasons to believe in its truth. However, when any group claims to have an exclusive hold on truth, we tend to immediately doubt the claims of that group as is the case here on this thread here at covers.

    Does Christianity make such a claim? It does claim that Jesus is the only way to God, but it also claims that this path is available to everyone and has been taken by people throughout all of history. It does not restrict membership in heaven to a certain number of people, a certain ethnic race, or those who joined a very specific church or denomination. Nor does it claim that before the appearance of Jesus (or Abraham or Moses), no one had any access to truth or knowledge of God.

    3. Brainwashing

    Does Christianity forbid asking hard questions about its doctrines? Again, while some individual Christians have frowned on skeptics, inquisitive children and others who ask hard questions, this is not something prohibited by the Bible, but rather encouraged by it. Jesus not only answered questions from his disciples and nonbelievers, he even brought up a hard question of his own: Then Jesus presented them with a question. "Why is it that the Messiah is said to be the son of David? For David himself wrote in the book of Psalms: The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit in the place of honor at my right hand until I humble your enemies, making them a footstool under your feet." Since David called the Messiah 'Lord,' how can the Messiah be his son?" (Luke 20:41-44)

    Does Christianity forbid questioning of its leaders and their doctrine or behavior? While the Bible does teach respect for authority figures, it also teaches that all people fall short of perfection. Accusations can be brought against church leaders, if there is a reasonable amount of evidence.

    Does Christianity promote isolation of Christians from nonbelievers and their views? While the Bible does caution against being influenced by the evils present in society, it doesn't advocate isolation from society, but rather says that believers ought to participate in society in order to influence it.

    Finally, it should go without saying that Christianity is opposed to all forms of physical and emotional abuse. Not only is one of the central tenents of Christianity to love other people as one loves oneself, the Bible also teaches that harming another person is harming someone created by God and loved by God and is comparable to harming God himself.

    4. Financial exploitation

    Unfortunately, there are Christian organizations whose primary focus is fundraising and who may even resort to deception in order to line the pockets of their leaders. This practice is directly opposed to the teachings of the Bible, which condemns greed and trusting in wealth, giving under compulsion and exploitation of the poor. Despite what such organizations might claim, the Bible doesn't promise material riches to those who follow God or make large donations.

    The apostle Paul explained his attitude towards profiting from his preaching in 1 Corinthians 9:11-18. While pastors and missionaries do have a right to be paid for their work, he voluntarily waived this right so that people wouldn't think he was motivated by greed.

    5. Emotional exploitation

    Do Christians target young adults, the elderly and others who might be vulnerable to exploitation? Christians often do focus evangelistic efforts on a particular segment of society. Is this exploitation? It might be if the evangelists used some of the techniques listed above to bully or deceive their audience, or if their teaching is false and ultimately harmful.

    However, the question assumes that evangelization in general, and Christianity in particular, is harmful, which is not necessarily the case. If Christianity is true, then becoming a Christian is not harmful, but is beneficial in many ways. Since Christianity does fulfill needs, it should be no surprise that people with deeply felt needs are often the ones who become Christians.

    If Christians are following Biblical principles when evangelizing, then they are letting people know in a gentle and respectful manner that God cares for them and is able to meet their needs. This is no more exploitive than a food pantry or homeless shelter advertising its services to those it was intended to provide for. Just as churches and religious groups may be exploitive, a homeless shelter could be abusive by harrassing people on the streets, bullying them to come inside and then prohibiting them from leaving. The fact that such an organization can be abusive doesn't mean that all such organizations are abusive or that having such organizations is a bad idea.

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