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    All Forums | General Discussion

    Has Anyone Got Help On Their Mortgage?

    123 Next Last»
    TheTotalHunter
    depeche2
    wallstreetcappers
    NYY928
    DickyR
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    TheTotalHunter
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    Posted: Apr. 10, 2012 - 5:48 PM ET #1

    I bought my home in 2006 right at the top of the market. Anyways it is worth about 350K and I owe over 680K on it. GMAC refuses to do anything except give me the run around. I can't let it foreclose because my credit is all fucked up now and I could never get another loan.

    Reply
    To remove first post, remove entire topic.

    I bought my home in 2006 right at the top of the market. Anyways it is worth about 350K and I owe over 680K on it. GMAC refuses to do anything except give me the run around. I can't let it foreclose because my credit is all fucked up now and I could never get another loan.

     
    depeche2
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    Posted: Apr. 10, 2012 - 6:11 PM ET #2

    WoW!  Brutal.  I hear what you say about fucking up credit, but man, you might need to let that foreclose.  That is a huge amount to be underwater.  It usually takes a long time to foreclose.  Just live there rent-free for a couple years and then move out.  Save the cash up for rent.  Credit does get repaired even after foreclosure after maybe 3-5 years.  Paying into that seems like throwing good money after bad.
    Reply
    WoW!  Brutal.  I hear what you say about fucking up credit, but man, you might need to let that foreclose.  That is a huge amount to be underwater.  It usually takes a long time to foreclose.  Just live there rent-free for a couple years and then move out.  Save the cash up for rent.  Credit does get repaired even after foreclosure after maybe 3-5 years.  Paying into that seems like throwing good money after bad.
     
    wallstreetcappers
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    Posted: Apr. 10, 2012 - 6:14 PM ET #3

    Thats tough but you signed the documents, so if you CAN pay it you SHOULD pay it.

    It is unfortunate that our society wants to bail on obligations because the value of the house goes down or because others are bailing.

    What accelerated and keeps suppressing the market is people wanting to bail on their obligations, leaving those who are trying in the grasp of this situation.

    It might sound harsh but at some point if you sign the line and can make the payments you should continue to uphold your obligation.

    Reply
    Thats tough but you signed the documents, so if you CAN pay it you SHOULD pay it.

    It is unfortunate that our society wants to bail on obligations because the value of the house goes down or because others are bailing.

    What accelerated and keeps suppressing the market is people wanting to bail on their obligations, leaving those who are trying in the grasp of this situation.

    It might sound harsh but at some point if you sign the line and can make the payments you should continue to uphold your obligation.

     
    NYY928
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    Posted: Apr. 10, 2012 - 6:14 PM ET #4

    Foreclose and have a family member rent/buy for you next time
    Reply
    Foreclose and have a family member rent/buy for you next time
     
    DickyR
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    Posted: Apr. 10, 2012 - 6:43 PM ET #5

    Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:

    Thats tough but you signed the documents, so if you CAN pay it you SHOULD pay it.

    It is unfortunate that our society wants to bail on obligations because the value of the house goes down or because others are bailing.

    What accelerated and keeps suppressing the market is people wanting to bail on their obligations, leaving those who are trying in the grasp of this situation.

    It might sound harsh but at some point if you sign the line and can make the payments you should continue to uphold your obligation.



    People like you are the problem. This man will NEVER recover from the collapse.
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:

    Thats tough but you signed the documents, so if you CAN pay it you SHOULD pay it.

    It is unfortunate that our society wants to bail on obligations because the value of the house goes down or because others are bailing.

    What accelerated and keeps suppressing the market is people wanting to bail on their obligations, leaving those who are trying in the grasp of this situation.

    It might sound harsh but at some point if you sign the line and can make the payments you should continue to uphold your obligation.



    People like you are the problem. This man will NEVER recover from the collapse.
     
    DickyR
    DickyR
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    Posted: Apr. 10, 2012 - 6:45 PM ET #6

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTotalHunter:

    I bought my home in 2006 right at the top of the market. Anyways it is worth about 350K and I owe over 680K on it. GMAC refuses to do anything except give me the run around. I can't let it foreclose because my credit is all fucked up now and I could never get another loan.


    I am in the same boat brother. Been getting the run around by BOA for 3 years now. Lawyer involved too. Nothing we can do but foreclose or wait for the court system to force them into helping us.
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTotalHunter:

    I bought my home in 2006 right at the top of the market. Anyways it is worth about 350K and I owe over 680K on it. GMAC refuses to do anything except give me the run around. I can't let it foreclose because my credit is all fucked up now and I could never get another loan.


    I am in the same boat brother. Been getting the run around by BOA for 3 years now. Lawyer involved too. Nothing we can do but foreclose or wait for the court system to force them into helping us.
     
    wallstreetcappers
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    Posted: Apr. 10, 2012 - 7:09 PM ET #7

    Quote Originally Posted by DickyR:



    People like you are the problem. This man will NEVER recover from the collapse.

    Did you sign the mortgage document?

    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by DickyR:



    People like you are the problem. This man will NEVER recover from the collapse.

    Did you sign the mortgage document?

     
    Nut_Flopper
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    Posted: Apr. 10, 2012 - 7:42 PM ET #8

    You can get a new mortgage about 2 years after a foreclosure if your credit is spotless in those 2 years following. Christ 75% of the country has practically been foreclosed on lenders take it into consideration now. Still not an easy process, people with perfect credit and cash reserves can still have a difficult time getting a mortgage right now. Banks are still being tight with lending money.

    I agree with WSC, you made a bad decision like millions of people but it is still your obligation.

    People who want to live up to their obligations are the problem?
    Reply
    You can get a new mortgage about 2 years after a foreclosure if your credit is spotless in those 2 years following. Christ 75% of the country has practically been foreclosed on lenders take it into consideration now. Still not an easy process, people with perfect credit and cash reserves can still have a difficult time getting a mortgage right now. Banks are still being tight with lending money.

    I agree with WSC, you made a bad decision like millions of people but it is still your obligation.

    People who want to live up to their obligations are the problem?
     
    gfinger
    gfinger
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    Posted: Apr. 10, 2012 - 8:13 PM ET #9

    Pay the bank their money. You signed the mortgage right?
    Reply
    Pay the bank their money. You signed the mortgage right?
     
    THEMUGG
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    Posted: Apr. 10, 2012 - 8:27 PM ET #10

    Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:

    Thats tough but you signed the documents, so if you CAN pay it you SHOULD pay it.

    It is unfortunate that our society wants to bail on obligations because the value of the house goes down or because others are bailing.

    What accelerated and keeps suppressing the market is people wanting to bail on their obligations, leaving those who are trying in the grasp of this situation.

    It might sound harsh but at some point if you sign the line and can make the payments you should continue to uphold your obligation.


     Maybe he's at the end of his ARM & has been jacked. You know as well as anyone the action these MB's took to get everyone a loan, including telling many that "you can just re-fi out of this before your ARM runs out". Well guess what? The banks won't re-fi now that you're upside down.

     I understand, & for the most part agree with, your POV, wall. But everyone has to make their own "business decision".........just like banks do. Lenders are as much to blame as the borrowers that may have been ignorant or fell on hard times.
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:

    Thats tough but you signed the documents, so if you CAN pay it you SHOULD pay it.

    It is unfortunate that our society wants to bail on obligations because the value of the house goes down or because others are bailing.

    What accelerated and keeps suppressing the market is people wanting to bail on their obligations, leaving those who are trying in the grasp of this situation.

    It might sound harsh but at some point if you sign the line and can make the payments you should continue to uphold your obligation.


     Maybe he's at the end of his ARM & has been jacked. You know as well as anyone the action these MB's took to get everyone a loan, including telling many that "you can just re-fi out of this before your ARM runs out". Well guess what? The banks won't re-fi now that you're upside down.

     I understand, & for the most part agree with, your POV, wall. But everyone has to make their own "business decision".........just like banks do. Lenders are as much to blame as the borrowers that may have been ignorant or fell on hard times.
     
    t6rider
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    Posted: Apr. 10, 2012 - 8:30 PM ET #11

    It's a business decision to walk away. Fuck the banks. My wife went in for a minor surgery that ended up becoming major.  She was out of work for two years. We went through all of our savings and 401k and everything else we had.


    Bank of America would do nothing to help us. We ran out of options and filed Chapter 7. We haven't heard from the fuckers in 4 years. We even got another attorney for when they do eventually forelcose to make the process as smooth as possible.


    My wife and I are ready to move on, whether we rent or have enough saved up to pay cash for another. We were lucky, no house payment in almost 4 years. We did everything we could to make things right. It was the best decision we ever made.

    Reply

    It's a business decision to walk away. Fuck the banks. My wife went in for a minor surgery that ended up becoming major.  She was out of work for two years. We went through all of our savings and 401k and everything else we had.


    Bank of America would do nothing to help us. We ran out of options and filed Chapter 7. We haven't heard from the fuckers in 4 years. We even got another attorney for when they do eventually forelcose to make the process as smooth as possible.


    My wife and I are ready to move on, whether we rent or have enough saved up to pay cash for another. We were lucky, no house payment in almost 4 years. We did everything we could to make things right. It was the best decision we ever made.

     
    wallstreetcappers
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    Posted: Apr. 10, 2012 - 8:32 PM ET #12

    Mugg,

    Thus the first line.. if you CAN pay for it you should.

    I have friends who are in his EXACT position, bot in 06 on the highs, way underwater but they are fighting it out and will refi through HAMP II, right now ARM rates are lower to the point that they are paying less in interest than with the initial rate of the loan.

    Lenders are to blame and I agree, but that does not mean people should just give up and toss the result onto the payers.

    Banks do not absorb losses..they pass them onto the people who are not foreclosing in the way of higher fees on loans, higher fees on accounts, bailouts via the US Taxpayer.

    People bailing on their loans when they can pay are placing a direct tax on everyone who is paying.
    Reply
    Mugg,

    Thus the first line.. if you CAN pay for it you should.

    I have friends who are in his EXACT position, bot in 06 on the highs, way underwater but they are fighting it out and will refi through HAMP II, right now ARM rates are lower to the point that they are paying less in interest than with the initial rate of the loan.

    Lenders are to blame and I agree, but that does not mean people should just give up and toss the result onto the payers.

    Banks do not absorb losses..they pass them onto the people who are not foreclosing in the way of higher fees on loans, higher fees on accounts, bailouts via the US Taxpayer.

    People bailing on their loans when they can pay are placing a direct tax on everyone who is paying.
     
    DickyR
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    Posted: Apr. 10, 2012 - 10:03 PM ET #13

    Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:

    Mugg,

    Thus the first line.. if you CAN pay for it you should.

    I have friends who are in his EXACT position, bot in 06 on the highs, way underwater but they are fighting it out and will refi through HAMP II, right now ARM rates are lower to the point that they are paying less in interest than with the initial rate of the loan.

    Lenders are to blame and I agree, but that does not mean people should just give up and toss the result onto the payers.

    Banks do not absorb losses..they pass them onto the people who are not foreclosing in the way of higher fees on loans, higher fees on accounts, bailouts via the US Taxpayer.

    People bailing on their loans when they can pay are placing a direct tax on everyone who is paying.

    That's PURE BULLSHIT. People with perfect credit and good LTV right now are getting FREE MONEY to re-fi. The banks can no longer pass on bullshit fees to anyone. All of these banks that went belly up due to bad loans were just absorbed by other banks. It was OK for the banks to rake in billions in profits while screwing the borrowers every turn they could. I know this business inside out. I was mortgage banker. I worked it inside out. I would beg my CEO to turn down 75% of the loans we got. He laughed. Him and his son ran 39 bogus loans through our company walked away with 20 million in cash and all that happened to him was the company was shutdown and him and his son were banned from getting a license in the state of florida from the finance dept. The big boys did it to the tune of hundreds of millions or billions...
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:

    Mugg,

    Thus the first line.. if you CAN pay for it you should.

    I have friends who are in his EXACT position, bot in 06 on the highs, way underwater but they are fighting it out and will refi through HAMP II, right now ARM rates are lower to the point that they are paying less in interest than with the initial rate of the loan.

    Lenders are to blame and I agree, but that does not mean people should just give up and toss the result onto the payers.

    Banks do not absorb losses..they pass them onto the people who are not foreclosing in the way of higher fees on loans, higher fees on accounts, bailouts via the US Taxpayer.

    People bailing on their loans when they can pay are placing a direct tax on everyone who is paying.

    That's PURE BULLSHIT. People with perfect credit and good LTV right now are getting FREE MONEY to re-fi. The banks can no longer pass on bullshit fees to anyone. All of these banks that went belly up due to bad loans were just absorbed by other banks. It was OK for the banks to rake in billions in profits while screwing the borrowers every turn they could. I know this business inside out. I was mortgage banker. I worked it inside out. I would beg my CEO to turn down 75% of the loans we got. He laughed. Him and his son ran 39 bogus loans through our company walked away with 20 million in cash and all that happened to him was the company was shutdown and him and his son were banned from getting a license in the state of florida from the finance dept. The big boys did it to the tune of hundreds of millions or billions...
     
    DickyR
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    Posted: Apr. 10, 2012 - 10:07 PM ET #14

    Oh and the banks are now charging HIGHER FEES because they are blood sucking person and need to line the pockets of the greedy CEO's who needed to be paid $50 million while the government was bailing them out.

    TotalHunter......Here is the deal.

    Option 1. - Don't pay it. Let them take you to court. At that point you will have between 90-180 days before they can boot you out physically.

    Option 2. - File bankruptcy and protect your house and your ass.

    Option 3. Do all you can to re-fi till you have no options but keep detailed notes for the courts.
    Reply
    Oh and the banks are now charging HIGHER FEES because they are blood sucking person and need to line the pockets of the greedy CEO's who needed to be paid $50 million while the government was bailing them out.

    TotalHunter......Here is the deal.

    Option 1. - Don't pay it. Let them take you to court. At that point you will have between 90-180 days before they can boot you out physically.

    Option 2. - File bankruptcy and protect your house and your ass.

    Option 3. Do all you can to re-fi till you have no options but keep detailed notes for the courts.
     
    wallstreetcappers
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    Posted: Apr. 10, 2012 - 10:51 PM ET #15

    Quote Originally Posted by DickyR:


    That's PURE BULLSHIT. People with perfect credit and good LTV right now are getting FREE MONEY to re-fi. The banks can no longer pass on bullshit fees to anyone. All of these banks that went belly up due to bad loans were just absorbed by other banks. It was OK for the banks to rake in billions in profits while screwing the borrowers every turn they could. I know this business inside out. I was mortgage banker. I worked it inside out. I would beg my CEO to turn down 75% of the loans we got. He laughed. Him and his son ran 39 bogus loans through our company walked away with 20 million in cash and all that happened to him was the company was shutdown and him and his son were banned from getting a license in the state of florida from the finance dept. The big boys did it to the tune of hundreds of millions or billions...

    Oh really?

    So are fees higher or lower or the same for originations/lending/closing costs now vs in say 2006?

    Are standards tougher to obtain a loan now or in 2006?

    Are costs for PMI higher or lower now vs 2006?


    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by DickyR:


    That's PURE BULLSHIT. People with perfect credit and good LTV right now are getting FREE MONEY to re-fi. The banks can no longer pass on bullshit fees to anyone. All of these banks that went belly up due to bad loans were just absorbed by other banks. It was OK for the banks to rake in billions in profits while screwing the borrowers every turn they could. I know this business inside out. I was mortgage banker. I worked it inside out. I would beg my CEO to turn down 75% of the loans we got. He laughed. Him and his son ran 39 bogus loans through our company walked away with 20 million in cash and all that happened to him was the company was shutdown and him and his son were banned from getting a license in the state of florida from the finance dept. The big boys did it to the tune of hundreds of millions or billions...

    Oh really?

    So are fees higher or lower or the same for originations/lending/closing costs now vs in say 2006?

    Are standards tougher to obtain a loan now or in 2006?

    Are costs for PMI higher or lower now vs 2006?


     
    DickyR
    DickyR
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    Posted: Apr. 10, 2012 - 11:28 PM ET #16

    Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:


    Oh really?

    So are fees higher or lower or the same for originations/lending/closing costs now vs in say 2006? LOWER

    Are standards tougher to obtain a loan now or in 2006? TOUGHER

    Are costs for PMI higher or lower now vs 2006? HIGHER FOR OBVIOUS REASONS. MOST LENDERS ARE NOT LENDER ABOVE 80% ANYWAYS.


    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:


    Oh really?

    So are fees higher or lower or the same for originations/lending/closing costs now vs in say 2006? LOWER

    Are standards tougher to obtain a loan now or in 2006? TOUGHER

    Are costs for PMI higher or lower now vs 2006? HIGHER FOR OBVIOUS REASONS. MOST LENDERS ARE NOT LENDER ABOVE 80% ANYWAYS.


     
    D_Unit
    D_Unit
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    Posted: Apr. 10, 2012 - 11:33 PM ET #17

    Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:

    Thats tough but you signed the documents, so if you CAN pay it you SHOULD pay it.

    It is unfortunate that our society wants to bail on obligations because the value of the house goes down or because others are bailing.

    What accelerated and keeps suppressing the market is people wanting to bail on their obligations, leaving those who are trying in the grasp of this situation.

    It might sound harsh but at some point if you sign the line and can make the payments you should continue to uphold your obligation.



    You mean like most democrat voters? Yes i agree..
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:

    Thats tough but you signed the documents, so if you CAN pay it you SHOULD pay it.

    It is unfortunate that our society wants to bail on obligations because the value of the house goes down or because others are bailing.

    What accelerated and keeps suppressing the market is people wanting to bail on their obligations, leaving those who are trying in the grasp of this situation.

    It might sound harsh but at some point if you sign the line and can make the payments you should continue to uphold your obligation.



    You mean like most democrat voters? Yes i agree..
     
    wallstreetcappers
    wallstreetcappers
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    Posted: Apr. 10, 2012 - 11:38 PM ET #18

    Quote Originally Posted by D_Unit:



    You mean like most democrat voters? Yes i agree..


    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by D_Unit:



    You mean like most democrat voters? Yes i agree..


     
    mattbrot
    mattbrot
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    Posts: 6840
    Posted: Apr. 10, 2012 - 11:46 PM ET #19

    Quote Originally Posted by D_Unit:



    You mean like most democrat voters? Yes i agree..

    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by D_Unit:



    You mean like most democrat voters? Yes i agree..

     
    slikstiks99
    slikstiks99
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    Posted: Apr. 10, 2012 - 11:54 PM ET #20

    Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:

    Thats tough but you signed the documents, so if you CAN pay it you SHOULD pay it.

    It is unfortunate that our society wants to bail on obligations because the value of the house goes down or because others are bailing.

    What accelerated and keeps suppressing the market is people wanting to bail on their obligations, leaving those who are trying in the grasp of this situation.

    It might sound harsh but at some point if you sign the line and can make the payments you should continue to uphold your obligation.



    I suppose you are somewhat correct, but once you factor in inflation, I have a hard seeing him as anything, but a victim.
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:

    Thats tough but you signed the documents, so if you CAN pay it you SHOULD pay it.

    It is unfortunate that our society wants to bail on obligations because the value of the house goes down or because others are bailing.

    What accelerated and keeps suppressing the market is people wanting to bail on their obligations, leaving those who are trying in the grasp of this situation.

    It might sound harsh but at some point if you sign the line and can make the payments you should continue to uphold your obligation.



    I suppose you are somewhat correct, but once you factor in inflation, I have a hard seeing him as anything, but a victim.
     
    depeche2
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    Posted: Apr. 11, 2012 - 12:54 AM ET #21

    Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:


    Did you sign the mortgage document?



    It's not a crime to breach a contract.  You breach, you pay damages to the extent provided by contract and law.  Not saying it's a good idea, but it's not unethical or immoral IMO.
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:


    Did you sign the mortgage document?



    It's not a crime to breach a contract.  You breach, you pay damages to the extent provided by contract and law.  Not saying it's a good idea, but it's not unethical or immoral IMO.
     
    wallstreetcappers
    wallstreetcappers
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    Posted: Apr. 11, 2012 - 1:05 AM ET #22

    Quote Originally Posted by depeche2:



    It's not a crime to breach a contract.  You breach, you pay damages to the extent provided by contract and law.  Not saying it's a good idea, but it's not unethical or immoral IMO.

    Because we allow it here. Other countries the laws are a bit tougher. 

    Maybe if we had tougher laws with contracts, less people would break them.


    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by depeche2:



    It's not a crime to breach a contract.  You breach, you pay damages to the extent provided by contract and law.  Not saying it's a good idea, but it's not unethical or immoral IMO.

    Because we allow it here. Other countries the laws are a bit tougher. 

    Maybe if we had tougher laws with contracts, less people would break them.


     
    mattbrot
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    Posted: Apr. 11, 2012 - 1:15 AM ET #23

    Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:


    Because we allow it here. Other countries the laws are a bit tougher. 

    Maybe if we had tougher laws with contracts, less people would break them.



    Wall -- I typically always agree with you but this is a loaded situation.  So many scenarios at play. 

    There is the situation of a person just wanting to get out of his / her loan because of a severe drop in house worth.

    But how about the situation where a family / person simply can not make the payments anymore? He / she had a health issue, dealing with sick parents, sick children or any other scenario that is out of a persons control and is not financially feasible?

    Yes they signed the contract but I am guessing that in most cases their bank can give a shit about them.  

    Unfortunately there are "greedy pigs" on both sides of the current housing situation that many cities are in. 
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:


    Because we allow it here. Other countries the laws are a bit tougher. 

    Maybe if we had tougher laws with contracts, less people would break them.



    Wall -- I typically always agree with you but this is a loaded situation.  So many scenarios at play. 

    There is the situation of a person just wanting to get out of his / her loan because of a severe drop in house worth.

    But how about the situation where a family / person simply can not make the payments anymore? He / she had a health issue, dealing with sick parents, sick children or any other scenario that is out of a persons control and is not financially feasible?

    Yes they signed the contract but I am guessing that in most cases their bank can give a shit about them.  

    Unfortunately there are "greedy pigs" on both sides of the current housing situation that many cities are in. 
     
    wallstreetcappers
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    Posted: Apr. 11, 2012 - 1:21 AM ET #24

    I have more sympathy for sure about the health or job situation, which was included in my initial reply.

    In other countries mortgages have forced PMI, AND if the person bails, the other party can go after assets and future earnings.

    We really should have required PMI for an initial period of time with all mortgages..much like we require car insurance, we should require PMI for like the first 10 yrs.


    Reply
    I have more sympathy for sure about the health or job situation, which was included in my initial reply.

    In other countries mortgages have forced PMI, AND if the person bails, the other party can go after assets and future earnings.

    We really should have required PMI for an initial period of time with all mortgages..much like we require car insurance, we should require PMI for like the first 10 yrs.


     
     
    mattbrot
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    Posted: Apr. 11, 2012 - 1:33 AM ET #25

    Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:

    I have more sympathy for sure about the health or job situation, which was included in my initial reply.

    In other countries mortgages have forced PMI, AND if the person bails, the other party can go after assets and future earnings.

    We really should have required PMI for an initial period of time with all mortgages..much like we require car insurance, we should require PMI for like the first 10 yrs.



    Wall -- I hear your point and it is certainly valid. My point is that in some situations that response screams loudly of the typical KOAJ () tpye of thought process where "if it does not benefit me" than "screw it".

    not sure if that even makes sense but I think that you in someway understand.
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:

    I have more sympathy for sure about the health or job situation, which was included in my initial reply.

    In other countries mortgages have forced PMI, AND if the person bails, the other party can go after assets and future earnings.

    We really should have required PMI for an initial period of time with all mortgages..much like we require car insurance, we should require PMI for like the first 10 yrs.



    Wall -- I hear your point and it is certainly valid. My point is that in some situations that response screams loudly of the typical KOAJ () tpye of thought process where "if it does not benefit me" than "screw it".

    not sure if that even makes sense but I think that you in someway understand.
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