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15 bucks to flip burgers in Seattle. Wow

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Posted: #151
moving on.....
 
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Posted: #152

""Min wage mandates have been in effect for at least 70 years and do
NOTHING to change poverty rates and likely make them worse.""


Well said by Qwan... and accurate, too..





 
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Posted: #153
The people against minimum wage hikes in this forum have probably never lived in a city like seattle or San Francisco. I've lived in both. The cost of living is extremely high. Everyone' regardless of there profession, deserves to make a living wage. I have no problem with this increasing the price of my next cheeseburger, my next pair of socks, my next shot of scotch. In larger cities with booming economies, a mandated min. wage is about protecting workers from being exploited as businesses increase their profits, not closing the doors of small mom & pop's. The small businesses in such cities are more likely to be shut down by skyrocketing rents than mandatory minimums. It boggles my mind that anyone would be against this.
TIME TO BRING BACK THE OBAMA CAGES!
 
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Posted: #154
Quote Originally Posted by StumpTownStu:

The people against minimum wage hikes in this forum have probably never lived in a city like seattle or San Francisco. I've lived in both. The cost of living is extremely high. Everyone' regardless of there profession, deserves to make a living wage. I have no problem with this increasing the price of my next cheeseburger, my next pair of socks, my next shot of scotch. In larger cities with booming economies, a mandated min. wage is about protecting workers from being exploited as businesses increase their profits, not closing the doors of small mom & pop's. The small businesses in such cities are more likely to be shut down by skyrocketing rents than mandatory minimums. It boggles my mind that anyone would be against this.


I've lived in NYC and Boston, decades in each place. Both are high cost of living cities. My observations tell me that we should all be opposed to well intentioned, stupid, regulatory initiatives imposed by career members of Congress. They have spent a lifetime feeding at the public trough, avoiding like the plague the need to try to succeed in private enterprise. Yet they feel qualified telling  successful entrepreneurs how to run their businesses. Best example of this: U.S. Senator George McGovern, who spent a lifetime embracing every crackpot regulation proposed by anyone on Capitol Hill. That is until he retired from there and tried to run a private inn in Connecticut. An honest but misguided fellow,
he later made a speech acknowledging his regulatory idiocy and lamenting his complete lack of understanding of the business world while in Congress.

www.techdirt.com/articles/20121022/13153120790/george-mcgovern-why-politicians-who-havent-built-business-are-bad-regulating.shtml

The above article is phenomenal reading on this subject. I hope people will give it a look.
 
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Posted: #155
Market Forces aren't repealled when Kind-hearted Progressives buy Votes with the Legion of Victims by passing min.wage laws that aren't based in the real Economic World.

 
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Posted: #156
Quote Originally Posted by 1129ken:



I've lived in NYC and Boston, decades in each place. Both are high cost of living cities. My observations tell me that we should all be opposed to well intentioned, stupid, regulatory initiatives imposed by career members of Congress. They have spent a lifetime feeding at the public trough, avoiding like the plague the need to try to succeed in private enterprise. Yet they feel qualified telling  successful entrepreneurs how to run their businesses. Best example of this: U.S. Senator George McGovern, who spent a lifetime embracing every crackpot regulation proposed by anyone on Capitol Hill. That is until he retired from there and tried to run a private inn in Connecticut. An honest but misguided fellow,
he later made a speech acknowledging his regulatory idiocy and lamenting his complete lack of understanding of the business world while in Congress.

www.techdirt.com/articles/20121022/13153120790/george-mcgovern-why-politicians-who-havent-built-business-are-bad-regulating.shtml

The above article is phenomenal reading on this subject. I hope people will give it a look.
If said businessmen are successful then they shouldn't have a problem paying their employees a fair wage. Some laws aren't 100% political and are actually there to protect/help people. I suppose we should do away with mandatory overtime as well. Maybe child labor laws as well. There is a long history of "successful business" who owe their success to unscrupulos business tactics and employee exploitation.
TIME TO BRING BACK THE OBAMA CAGES!
 
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Posted: #157
Quote Originally Posted by 1129ken:



I've lived in NYC and Boston, decades in each place. Both are high cost of living cities. My observations tell me that we should all be opposed to well intentioned, stupid, regulatory initiatives imposed by career members of Congress. They have spent a lifetime feeding at the public trough, avoiding like the plague the need to try to succeed in private enterprise. Yet they feel qualified telling  successful entrepreneurs how to run their businesses. Best example of this: U.S. Senator George McGovern, who spent a lifetime embracing every crackpot regulation proposed by anyone on Capitol Hill. That is until he retired from there and tried to run a private inn in Connecticut. An honest but misguided fellow,
he later made a speech acknowledging his regulatory idiocy and lamenting his complete lack of understanding of the business world while in Congress.

www.techdirt.com/articles/20121022/13153120790/george-mcgovern-why-politicians-who-havent-built-business-are-bad-regulating.shtml

The above article is phenomenal reading on this subject. I hope people will give it a look.



Min wage mandates are NOTHING MORE than window dressing by politicians making it look like they are doing something for the low end wage earner.

The best thing the US could do is DROP the min wage mandates totally and let the business create its own wage structure which is what a free market system would be.

Some will say, I will be exploited though. NO you wont, you increase your skill and desire to be the top dog at your company and try to increase their sales and see if your manager doesnt reward you for your desire to GROW THEIR COMPANY.

 If the manager does not see this and reward you with extra pay, then tell him you are going to his competitor. Which business do you think will survive in the long run(????) the one who tries to retain top people or lets them go???


The problem is that if we keep raising our wage structure we become too expensive for the rest of the world to buy our products.
This has been the theme of too high US wages vs the world for 50 years and we see where it has taken us.

Germany dropped its min wage requirements and its unemployment rate went DOWN. The US keeps raising min wage and US labor participation rates keep declining(less people want to work).

I've looked for the graph again but cant find it, but it shows jobs are NOT need in the low skilled sector and that amount will just continue to decrease as you enforce businesses with extra costs. Wendy's would not have thought of going to kiosks which will eliminate help if it were not because of the threat of increased labor costs.

 Industries are just begging for employees with some tech training like from junior colleges.At our college career fair, we had TEN employers talking with the FIVE who graduated in that field that year. Do you think that is a favorable ratio for the job seeker?

Free market systems WORK and every econ professor in the world worth his salt would endorse this.

 
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Posted: #158
Quote Originally Posted by Qwan61:




Min wage mandates are NOTHING MORE than window dressing by politicians making it look like they are doing something for the low end wage earner.

The best thing the US could do is DROP the min wage mandates totally and let the business create its own wage structure which is what a free market system would be.

Some will say, I will be exploited though. NO you wont, you increase your skill and desire to be the top dog at your company and try to increase their sales and see if your manager doesnt reward you for your desire to GROW THEIR COMPANY.

 If the manager does not see this and reward you with extra pay, then tell him you are going to his competitor. Which business do you think will survive in the long run(????) the one who tries to retain top people or lets them go???


The problem is that if we keep raising our wage structure we become too expensive for the rest of the world to buy our products.
This has been the theme of too high US wages vs the world for 50 years and we see where it has taken us.

Germany dropped its min wage requirements and its unemployment rate went DOWN. The US keeps raising min wage and US labor participation rates keep declining(less people want to work).

I've looked for the graph again but cant find it, but it shows jobs are NOT need in the low skilled sector and that amount will just continue to decrease as you enforce businesses with extra costs. Wendy's would not have thought of going to kiosks which will eliminate help if it were not because of the threat of increased labor costs.

 Industries are just begging for employees with some tech training like from junior colleges.At our college career fair, we had TEN employers talking with the FIVE who graduated in that field that year. Do you think that is a favorable ratio for the job seeker?

Free market systems WORK and every econ professor in the world worth his salt would endorse this.


I completely agree with you but Democrat politicians, or the Pimps of the Poor, would never let this fly.  
 
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Posted: #159
Quote Originally Posted by Qwan61:




Min wage mandates are NOTHING MORE than window dressing by politicians making it look like they are doing something for the low end wage earner.

The best thing the US could do is DROP the min wage mandates totally and let the business create its own wage structure which is what a free market system would be.

Some will say, I will be exploited though. NO you wont, you increase your skill and desire to be the top dog at your company and try to increase their sales and see if your manager doesnt reward you for your desire to GROW THEIR COMPANY.

 If the manager does not see this and reward you with extra pay, then tell him you are going to his competitor. Which business do you think will survive in the long run(????) the one who tries to retain top people or lets them go???


The problem is that if we keep raising our wage structure we become too expensive for the rest of the world to buy our products.
This has been the theme of too high US wages vs the world for 50 years and we see where it has taken us.

Germany dropped its min wage requirements and its unemployment rate went DOWN. The US keeps raising min wage and US labor participation rates keep declining(less people want to work).

I've looked for the graph again but cant find it, but it shows jobs are NOT need in the low skilled sector and that amount will just continue to decrease as you enforce businesses with extra costs. Wendy's would not have thought of going to kiosks which will eliminate help if it were not because of the threat of increased labor costs.

 Industries are just begging for employees with some tech training like from junior colleges.At our college career fair, we had TEN employers talking with the FIVE who graduated in that field that year. Do you think that is a favorable ratio for the job seeker?

Free market systems WORK and every econ professor in the world worth his salt would endorse this.

This is ridiculous. The kind of employers that pay minimum wage are not the kind of employers that are competitive for employees. The manager at McDonald's isn't worried about losing an employee to Taco Bell. Their employees are expendable therefore exploitable. You can spin it politically all you want but everybody deserves to make a?living wage, even if it's to flip burgers. And you're right, labor cost do make our goods more expensive. I buy American whenever possible even though it cost me more because I believe in supporting my own country and it's workers. Then you have those who say they support the Anerican worker but they wsnt them to get paid dogsh#t and not have benefits. And it's all to pad the pockets of rich businessmen.
TIME TO BRING BACK THE OBAMA CAGES!
 
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Posted: #160
Oh lovely the fictitious free market system college econ discussion raging again.

There is no such thing as free markets, what you are suggesting is not free markets at all rather less government.

Why is there government regulation in the first place? Abuses from corporations to the consumer or worker are why there are regulations and why said regulations become more and more complex. Businesses profit from exploitation, either exploitation of the consumer, of their supplier, of their labor, of their pricing..profit comes from a greater difference in cost of goods sold, the lesser the COGS the greater the profit. So how does one increase COGS? By exploiting the resources in their control.

Businesses will hire less or raise prices more when labor becomes more expensive and that is a tax on the current worker, if a business is not capable of existing then they exit and do not exist.

Suggesting that government is the cause of the ills of business is backwards, its like saying speed limits make the time to travel from one location to another longer...well of course they do but those limits are in place due to abuses and harm to the drivers from OTHER drivers.

I dont think that 15 an hour in high cost markets is too much at all, try living and working in those areas, try traveling from those areas to an affordable rent for living. 15 an hour is not living the life of luxury, before taxes that equates to 600 a week. If you have done the work for this wage, it is for sure not too high in my view. Working in the fast food service industry is very difficult, it is thankless, disgusting, fast paced and unpleasant. I think paying a strong wage for such a difficult job is fine with me.
 
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Posted: #161
Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:

Oh lovely the fictitious free market system college econ discussion raging again.

There is no such thing as free markets, what you are suggesting is not free markets at all rather less government.

Why is there government regulation in the first place? Abuses from corporations to the consumer or worker are why there are regulations and why said regulations become more and more complex. Businesses profit from exploitation, either exploitation of the consumer, of their supplier, of their labor, of their pricing..profit comes from a greater difference in cost of goods sold, the lesser the COGS the greater the profit. So how does one increase COGS? By exploiting the resources in their control.

Businesses will hire less or raise prices more when labor becomes more expensive and that is a tax on the current worker, if a business is not capable of existing then they exit and do not exist.

Suggesting that government is the cause of the ills of business is backwards, its like saying speed limits make the time to travel from one location to another longer...well of course they do but those limits are in place due to abuses and harm to the drivers from OTHER drivers.

I dont think that 15 an hour in high cost markets is too much at all, try living and working in those areas, try traveling from those areas to an affordable rent for living. 15 an hour is not living the life of luxury, before taxes that equates to 600 a week. If you have done the work for this wage, it is for sure not too high in my view. Working in the fast food service industry is very difficult, it is thankless, disgusting, fast paced and unpleasant. I think paying a strong wage for such a difficult job is fine with me.


Taxes(and this is a tax on business) have NEVER raised govt revenues. This is a continuous loop of stupidity you support.

YOU ARE AWARE(????) that min wage increases have NEVER worked????? If they did....then why are they still there?

The old adage still rules and people still ignore it :

If you keep doing what you are doing you will keep getting what you are getting.

Do you think this time in the min wage increase will be THEE answer? Maybe, if we try it just 100 more times it will finally become successful. Poverty rates still increase, crime is increasing, this is due to lack of jobs.

Taxing the business WILL NOT create new jobs.How many times do people have to be told this. And yet even IN SPITE of the looming and certain implementation of automation(kiosks) do they believe this. THE EVIDENCE IS SIMPLY NOT ENOUGH for the doubters.

Job creation drives wages NOT, NOT, NEVER does  wage increase( without productivity) drive job creation.

I would much rather see Trump get infrastructure job creation going which will dry up available labor and THEN you will see TRUE wage growth and INCREASED #'s of people working.

I dont want to get into this anymore... a 3rd grader gets this..



 
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Posted: #162
Well said, and at an MBA level at that !


 
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Posted: #163
Quote Originally Posted by Qwan61:



Taxes(and this is a tax on business) have NEVER raised govt revenues. This is a continuous loop of stupidity you support.

YOU ARE AWARE(????) that min wage increases have NEVER worked????? If they did....then why are they still there?

The old adage still rules and people still ignore it :

If you keep doing what you are doing you will keep getting what you are getting.

Do you think this time in the min wage increase will be THEE answer? Maybe, if we try it just 100 more times it will finally become successful. Poverty rates still increase, crime is increasing, this is due to lack of jobs.

Taxing the business WILL NOT create new jobs.How many times do people have to be told this. And yet even IN SPITE of the looming and certain implementation of automation(kiosks) do they believe this. THE EVIDENCE IS SIMPLY NOT ENOUGH for the doubters.

Job creation drives wages NOT, NOT, NEVER does  wage increase( without productivity) drive job creation.

I would much rather see Trump get infrastructure job creation going which will dry up available labor and THEN you will see TRUE wage growth and INCREASED #'s of people working.

I dont want to get into this anymore... a 3rd grader gets this..



Trump, the guy with a history of underpaying workers and even completely stiffing them is going to drive wage increases. You keep saying that min wage laws don't work and yet your basis is flawed. Min wage laws aren't there to reduce poverty. They are not there to create jobs. Yes, by their nature they will often slightly reduce the number of low paying entry level jobs. What they are there for is to simply protect workers from being exploited. There are there to make sure every workers wage, even the lowest paid, is commensurate with the cost of living and the rate off inflation. Yes, this does affect some small businesses but more than that it targets your fastfood restaurants, your big box stores, businesses that can afford to pay there employees better but would choose not to if not for mandatory minimun wages. I know you would like to live in a world where you can pay employees dogsh#t, give them no benefits whatsoever, and some how that's the American dream. That's the free market. Thank god we don't. Again, personally I don't mind if my socks or my cheeseburger cost me a little more if it goes to paying an American worker a decent wage. This isn't China. Paying lower and middle class workers is what stimulates the economy because they are the one's who actually spend money. Giving a break to the rich, whether through tax cuts or through doing away with things like minimum wages does nothing for the economy because that money sits in banks. It never actually leads to a boom in job growth. Yes, you'll see small growth in lower paying jobs but not enough to justify not paying the workers in said jobs a decent wage. Trickle down economics has never worked and never will. 
TIME TO BRING BACK THE OBAMA CAGES!
 
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Posted: #164
I mean, you say "if minimum wage increases work then why do we still have them..." like you've never heard of cost of living increases and inflation. Then you get all huffy like people in these forums don't understand basic economics when tou conveniently fail.to consider basic points such as these when making your aguments. A gallon of milk cost more than it did 10 years ago. A gallon of gas, a dozen eggs. Just because you've increases minimum wages in the past doesn't mean they won't have to be increased in the future. They'll always have to be increased. That's just.what the economy dictates.
TIME TO BRING BACK THE OBAMA CAGES!
 
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Posted: #165
Qwan,

I disagree with the adage of no taxation on corporations. Taxation exists for a variety of reasons, the cost of maintaining this country is borne by all citizens and takers of resources.

To me business consume a greater amount of resources and utilize more government benefit than citizens. Who pays for these resources and infrastructure, those "non" minimum wage workers or those poor on welfare?

Businesses are not above paying for access to infrastructure and government intervention. Private citizens should not be the only group that is taxed.

Min wage came into existence because of abuses from the private sector and the need to ensure a base level of compensation for labor.

To me businesses need much more oversight and regulation because the incentive to cheat is greater because of exact reason why free markets do not exist.

Free markets and freedom from government regulation can only exist when there is transparency, total and complete transparency and that can never happen and it has never happened. 

Free markets means both buyer and seller have full information, full transparency and a modest profit for the seller and marginal benefit for the buyer, and that is in all markets..including labor.


 
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Posted: #166
Quote Originally Posted by bandit1010:

People should not fear their government. The government should fear the people.





DING DING DING we have a winner!!!!


This is why I propose a new checks and balances for senator/congressman/presidency.

You as a politician made a promise to ME to vote a certain way on health care, taxes, whatever. OK....those promises are put on a webpage and monitored to whether you politician FOLLOWED THRU and represented your people.

Failure to do this can be voted on by the people to impeach this guy if necessary. Before he is possibly impeached his vote would NOT COUNT because he is voting the EXACT OPPOSITE of what he promised.If he misses the vote too he is suspect and better have a damn good reason why he didnt vote.

As you can see what happens here is that special interest groups will have NO POWER whatsoever to influence votes of elected officials.


 
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Posted: #167
Well said, and at an MBA level at that!
TIME TO BRING BACK THE OBAMA CAGES!
 
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Posted: #168
Quote Originally Posted by 1129ken:

Well said, and at an MBA level at that !






We'll just say "street level" MBA.

Like I said above, Ive been there and done that. We had our own rest business and paid higher than anyone in our town according to our CPA.

So... I get a kick out of pundits who read some news article and become overnight experts in rest wage structure.

This is no different than me telling an astronaut," you see mr astronaut you were taught all wrong. The moon surface has a very bouncy surface. That is why you jump so high".

I am now the self appointed expert on the moon surface of course never visiting it. The astronaut looks at me like, ok bud...

 
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Posted: #169
Quote Originally Posted by Qwan61:





We'll just say "street level" MBA.

Like I said above, Ive been there and done that. We had our own rest business and paid higher than anyone in our town according to our CPA.

So... I get a kick out of pundits who read some news article and become overnight experts in rest wage structure.

This is no different than me telling an astronaut," you see mr astronaut you were taught all wrong. The moon surface has a very bouncy surface. That is why you jump so high".

I am now the self appointed expert on the moon surface of course never visiting it. The astronaut looks at me like, ok bud...

Where was your business located? You can't come off like sn expert in businesses of every size, in every kind of environment be it urban, suburban, or rural, because your family had a restaurant. Especially since a family owned restaurant is a business that a mandatory minimum wage would be bad for. That's one business model though.
TIME TO BRING BACK THE OBAMA CAGES!
 
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Posted: #170
Quote Originally Posted by JEFFMARKETCAP:

I cannot believe this BS. You have got to be kidding me.  Now watch other cities follow. https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2014/06/02/seattle-minimum-wage-vote/9863061/

If you think it's so easy to flip burgers are not worthy of 15 bucks, quit your job and join them....
 
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Posted: #171
Quote Originally Posted by joe pockets:


If you think it's so easy to flip burgers are not worthy of 15 bucks, quit your job and join them....
What? 
Histrionic personality disorder. It's sad
 
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Posted: #172
Quote Originally Posted by wmi799:

What? 

I know.  Reading is difficult.  

Obviously he meant **and** instead of "are", but I can see how someone can be confused.  

Picking up a book every now and then can do wonders instead of making > 22,000 posts in a 7 year period.

Bah-lee dat.  The more you learn.....
 
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Posted: #173
Quote Originally Posted by Slobbasaurus:


I know.  Reading is difficult.  

Obviously he meant **and** instead of "are", but I can see how someone can be confused.  

Picking up a book every now and then can do wonders instead of making > 22,000 posts in a 7 year period.

Bah-lee dat.  The more you learn.....

Thanks Albert. As for reading? No issues. I knew what he meant. Read the sarcasm dumbass. I doubt you have ever opened a book that didn't have pictures. But, it was a good zinger from the junior high school days. Good one

As for post count? You actually care and or look at that? If so yours would be higher but all those times you're locked up the post don't get recorded. 

Histrionic personality disorder. It's sad
 
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Posted: #174
Aww, I hurt your feelings.

You're bitter guy, wmi.  The type that can deal it but has a hard time taking it.  And unfortunately, that's who you are and you'll never change Viejo.  

Now go get some sun.  People are a lot kinder in 3D.  
 
 
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Posted: #175
Quote Originally Posted by Slobbasaurus:

Aww, I hurt your feelings.

You're bitter guy, wmi.  The type that can deal it but has a hard time taking it.  And unfortunately, that's who you are and you'll never change Viejo.  

Now go get some sun.  People are a lot kinder in 3D.  
LOL! This all makes me bitter and you "hurt" my feelings? 

You are the poster child for hypocrisy. But, the liberal in you makes you this way. Which is okay. It takes all kinds. 
Histrionic personality disorder. It's sad
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