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    All Forums | Systems & Strategies

    A Theoretical Question..Good Answers Much Appreciated..

    w3rdy303
    nccashman
    tatehill2000
    SecondAgain
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    w3rdy303
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    Posted: Mar. 17, 2008 - 9:36 PM ET #1

    Hey all,
     
    I have a theoretical question to pose to the forum...This may seem a big long-winded but smart answers are much appreciated! Here's the scenario..
     
    Using the NBA as an example, we all know that NEARLY  50% of dogs and 50% of favorites cover against the pointspread over the Long Run. Long run will be defined here as 500 games of data.
     
    So, in assuming that dogs and favorites cover at 50%/50% against the spread over the long run..Here is my question:
     
    In the 4th quarter of an NBA game, if  TEAM X is down 3 points against the spread against TEAM Y and there are exactly 8 minutes left in the game, if I found and recorded the Cover/No Cover results of TEAM X being down 3 points on the spread for 500 games, would that percentage be reliable?
     
    An example scenario:
     
    The Kings are +3.5 dogs against the Spurs. The score is 90-84 Spurs. There are 8 Minutes left in the game, how many times are the Kings (Team X) going to make a 3-point comeback and cover the spread against the Spurs (Team Y)?   The resulting percentage we will call "Z."
     
    Essentially, the consistent variables being taken into account here are:
    1. Time Left in the Game (8 minutes in our example)
    2. Points Down on the Spread (3 points in our example)
    3. We assume Dogs and Favorites consistently hit at 50/50 when the score is 0-0 and there are 42 minutes left in the game.
     
    Is Z a reliable percentage to predict long run future results in that same scenario ( Team X Down 3 on the spread with 8 minutes left) once 500 Cover/No Cover results have been recorded?
     
     
    Thanks guys! Looking forward to your answers. Please feel free to pose clarification questions as well...
     
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    Hey all,
     
    I have a theoretical question to pose to the forum...This may seem a big long-winded but smart answers are much appreciated! Here's the scenario..
     
    Using the NBA as an example, we all know that NEARLY  50% of dogs and 50% of favorites cover against the pointspread over the Long Run. Long run will be defined here as 500 games of data.
     
    So, in assuming that dogs and favorites cover at 50%/50% against the spread over the long run..Here is my question:
     
    In the 4th quarter of an NBA game, if  TEAM X is down 3 points against the spread against TEAM Y and there are exactly 8 minutes left in the game, if I found and recorded the Cover/No Cover results of TEAM X being down 3 points on the spread for 500 games, would that percentage be reliable?
     
    An example scenario:
     
    The Kings are +3.5 dogs against the Spurs. The score is 90-84 Spurs. There are 8 Minutes left in the game, how many times are the Kings (Team X) going to make a 3-point comeback and cover the spread against the Spurs (Team Y)?   The resulting percentage we will call "Z."
     
    Essentially, the consistent variables being taken into account here are:
    1. Time Left in the Game (8 minutes in our example)
    2. Points Down on the Spread (3 points in our example)
    3. We assume Dogs and Favorites consistently hit at 50/50 when the score is 0-0 and there are 42 minutes left in the game.
     
    Is Z a reliable percentage to predict long run future results in that same scenario ( Team X Down 3 on the spread with 8 minutes left) once 500 Cover/No Cover results have been recorded?
     
     
    Thanks guys! Looking forward to your answers. Please feel free to pose clarification questions as well...
     
     
    nccashman
    nccashman
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    Posted: Mar. 17, 2008 - 9:46 PM ET #2

    May I ask why? Once the game is in the 4th quarter there is no chance to make money on it. So, respectfully, what's the point?
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    May I ask why? Once the game is in the 4th quarter there is no chance to make money on it. So, respectfully, what's the point?
     
    w3rdy303
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    Posted: Mar. 17, 2008 - 9:57 PM ET #3

    Quote Originally Posted by nccashman:

    May I ask why? Once the game is in the 4th quarter there is no chance to make money on it. So, respectfully, what's the point?

    Good point. It is merely a theoretical question, but once we have an answer I can explain how I'd like to apply it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nccashman:

    May I ask why? Once the game is in the 4th quarter there is no chance to make money on it. So, respectfully, what's the point?

    Good point. It is merely a theoretical question, but once we have an answer I can explain how I'd like to apply it.

     
    tatehill2000
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    Posted: Mar. 17, 2008 - 10:01 PM ET #4

    I think he may be refrencing it to a live betting scenerio???

    anyway, the answer saadly is no, it wont necessarily help you, my advice to you since you do seem to know capping, is look for the MIDDLES in this scenerio, take a position, then look to middle and get 6-8 points,,, 

    that is sage advice my frined

    tater

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    I think he may be refrencing it to a live betting scenerio???

    anyway, the answer saadly is no, it wont necessarily help you, my advice to you since you do seem to know capping, is look for the MIDDLES in this scenerio, take a position, then look to middle and get 6-8 points,,, 

    that is sage advice my frined

    tater

     
    tatehill2000
    tatehill2000
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    Posted: Mar. 17, 2008 - 10:01 PM ET #5

    I think he may be refrencing it to a live betting scenerio???

    anyway, the answer saadly is no, it wont necessarily help you, my advice to you since you do seem to know capping, is look for the MIDDLES in this scenerio, take a position, then look to middle and get 6-8 points,,, 

    that is sage advice my frined

    tater

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    I think he may be refrencing it to a live betting scenerio???

    anyway, the answer saadly is no, it wont necessarily help you, my advice to you since you do seem to know capping, is look for the MIDDLES in this scenerio, take a position, then look to middle and get 6-8 points,,, 

    that is sage advice my frined

    tater

     
    w3rdy303
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    Posted: Mar. 17, 2008 - 10:09 PM ET #6

    Quote Originally Posted by tatehill2000:

    I think he may be refrencing it to a live betting scenerio???

    anyway, the answer saadly is no, it wont necessarily help you, my advice to you since you do seem to know capping, is look for the MIDDLES in this scenerio, take a position, then look to middle and get 6-8 points,,, 

    that is sage advice my frined

    tater

     

    Thanks for the response tate. Would you mind elaborating on why it wouldnt help? I just cant get my head around it... given that the spread hits at 50% every year, why wouldnt the down 3 off spread % be the same if you are only taking time left and numeric deficit into account?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tatehill2000:

    I think he may be refrencing it to a live betting scenerio???

    anyway, the answer saadly is no, it wont necessarily help you, my advice to you since you do seem to know capping, is look for the MIDDLES in this scenerio, take a position, then look to middle and get 6-8 points,,, 

    that is sage advice my frined

    tater

     

    Thanks for the response tate. Would you mind elaborating on why it wouldnt help? I just cant get my head around it... given that the spread hits at 50% every year, why wouldnt the down 3 off spread % be the same if you are only taking time left and numeric deficit into account?

     
    w3rdy303
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    Posted: Mar. 17, 2008 - 10:47 PM ET #7

    I guess logically, being down 3 against the spread with 8 minutes left will comeback a greater % of the time than being down 4 over the long run....That should be a fact, no?

    but you're saying these two percentages will vary too greatly within those logical confines to be reliable over 500 games?

     

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    I guess logically, being down 3 against the spread with 8 minutes left will comeback a greater % of the time than being down 4 over the long run....That should be a fact, no?

    but you're saying these two percentages will vary too greatly within those logical confines to be reliable over 500 games?

     

     
    w3rdy303
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    Posted: Mar. 17, 2008 - 10:53 PM ET #8

    Also, let me clarify Team X varies from team to team..Its a different team almost every time, its simply a matter of situation (Being down 3 ATS with 8 minutes left)..
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    Also, let me clarify Team X varies from team to team..Its a different team almost every time, its simply a matter of situation (Being down 3 ATS with 8 minutes left)..
     
    tatehill2000
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    Posted: Mar. 17, 2008 - 11:26 PM ET #9

    w3rdy, the truth is with NBA(ugh) some teams will fight to the end, others will not, the questions you ask are extremely complex, lets say for example steve nash, he is thegrandmaster of clock management,  you want an OVER,,, he is who you want in that game lol,,,, (especially with his team down,,)

    the real question is what teams have alot of fight in them and can close a gap???? spurs,,,,, bost(finally),,,denver,,,

     the real quesiton is,,,, what teams dont giv a sht??? Miami Memphis seattle,,,,,,,

    Now PLUG those into your equation, and you will have a statistical lean as to gaining a tiny bit of advantage,  Now at this point you have to figure out how much a team wants to win, now with the NBA that could be ANYTIME???  thats why capping this sport is so dam hard,,,

    Your presumption that getting in at 8 mins left will gain you some advantage??? well,,, I definatley would advise you to track it with whats left of the season, but here again I believe your njumbers will be askew, as to who cares???? and whos given up???

    gl

    tater

     

     

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    w3rdy, the truth is with NBA(ugh) some teams will fight to the end, others will not, the questions you ask are extremely complex, lets say for example steve nash, he is thegrandmaster of clock management,  you want an OVER,,, he is who you want in that game lol,,,, (especially with his team down,,)

    the real question is what teams have alot of fight in them and can close a gap???? spurs,,,,, bost(finally),,,denver,,,

     the real quesiton is,,,, what teams dont giv a sht??? Miami Memphis seattle,,,,,,,

    Now PLUG those into your equation, and you will have a statistical lean as to gaining a tiny bit of advantage,  Now at this point you have to figure out how much a team wants to win, now with the NBA that could be ANYTIME???  thats why capping this sport is so dam hard,,,

    Your presumption that getting in at 8 mins left will gain you some advantage??? well,,, I definatley would advise you to track it with whats left of the season, but here again I believe your njumbers will be askew, as to who cares???? and whos given up???

    gl

    tater

     

     

     
    w3rdy303
    w3rdy303
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    Posted: Mar. 17, 2008 - 11:41 PM ET #10

    T-

    Very interesting response, but let me try to distance this from the betting standpoint.

    Lets make things a bit easier here with a simpler and more to-the-point theoretical question:

    If I pick a random team with 8 minutes in the 4th quarter 500 times:

    How many of those teams will beat the opponent by 3 points or more at the end of those 8 minutes?

    Say we get 44%. Meaning 44% of the time the team we chose will beat the opponent by 3 or more within that 8 minutes. Will this percentage be accurate over the next 500 random teams?

     

    ANSWER ME THIS, and i can go to bed sanely.

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    T-

    Very interesting response, but let me try to distance this from the betting standpoint.

    Lets make things a bit easier here with a simpler and more to-the-point theoretical question:

    If I pick a random team with 8 minutes in the 4th quarter 500 times:

    How many of those teams will beat the opponent by 3 points or more at the end of those 8 minutes?

    Say we get 44%. Meaning 44% of the time the team we chose will beat the opponent by 3 or more within that 8 minutes. Will this percentage be accurate over the next 500 random teams?

     

    ANSWER ME THIS, and i can go to bed sanely.

     
    tatehill2000
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    Posted: Mar. 18, 2008 - 12:17 AM ET #11

    Hmmmmm,,,, I am so sorry, but I dont have the answer,,, there are many numbers guys that will read this and Im sure chime in,, go to the main forums and Im 100% sure that youll get some solid responses,,,
     
    On a side note, 4 years ago I devised a system I called it the "quitfactor" I post mostly at the RX, anyway, IRONICLY it was based on teams quitting int he Final minutes!! lol
     
    anyway it hit solid as I back tested it for 8 years it hit the first 2 I used it2003-4 and 4-5, then failed in 2005-6 down a bit,,broke even 2006-7 ,, Im waiting till end of season to recheck it for this season,,,  anyway,,,
     
    good luck to uyou
    tater,,,
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    Hmmmmm,,,, I am so sorry, but I dont have the answer,,, there are many numbers guys that will read this and Im sure chime in,, go to the main forums and Im 100% sure that youll get some solid responses,,,
     
    On a side note, 4 years ago I devised a system I called it the "quitfactor" I post mostly at the RX, anyway, IRONICLY it was based on teams quitting int he Final minutes!! lol
     
    anyway it hit solid as I back tested it for 8 years it hit the first 2 I used it2003-4 and 4-5, then failed in 2005-6 down a bit,,broke even 2006-7 ,, Im waiting till end of season to recheck it for this season,,,  anyway,,,
     
    good luck to uyou
    tater,,,
     
     
    SecondAgain
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    Posted: Mar. 21, 2008 - 6:34 AM ET #12

    500 is never a large enough sample, always minimum 1000.

    What you need is a sample of 1000 IN THIS SITUATION. If you use 500 games, then the number of situations in the scenario you are looking for may only be a handful, and even then the sample maybe biased.
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    500 is never a large enough sample, always minimum 1000.

    What you need is a sample of 1000 IN THIS SITUATION. If you use 500 games, then the number of situations in the scenario you are looking for may only be a handful, and even then the sample maybe biased.
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