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    All Forums | Pro Golf

    Serious question. Please help end a debate

    «First Previous 456 ... 567 Next Last»
    ApocalypseLater
    SuperiorInsight
    mudpie
    Bluefin
    Yumdog
    ...
    Participants:
    Search model icon
    Views: 9320
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    «First Previous 456 ... 567 Next Last»
     
    ApocalypseLater
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    Posted: Aug. 22, 2010 - 12:38 AM ET #76

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperiorInsight:

    I straight STUMPED and OWNED everyone in this thread.

    wish i could meet you in real life... you would make an incredible case study...

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperiorInsight:

    I straight STUMPED and OWNED everyone in this thread.

    wish i could meet you in real life... you would make an incredible case study...

     
    SuperiorInsight
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    Posted: Aug. 22, 2010 - 7:55 AM ET #77

    Quote Originally Posted by ApocalypseLater:

    wish i could meet you in real life... you would make an incredible case study...

    ice4blood I'm just asking but why not use that acccount? Why do you want to go undercover and hide?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ApocalypseLater:

    wish i could meet you in real life... you would make an incredible case study...

    ice4blood I'm just asking but why not use that acccount? Why do you want to go undercover and hide?

     
    mudpie
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    Posted: Aug. 22, 2010 - 8:53 AM ET #78

    quite a stretch calling this a serious question.....
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    quite a stretch calling this a serious question.....
     
    ApocalypseLater
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    Posted: Aug. 22, 2010 - 3:11 PM ET #79

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperiorInsight:

    ice4blood I'm just asking but why not use that acccount? Why do you want to go undercover and hide?

    truly fascinating......

    i don't suppose you would tell me the truth if i asked how old you are, would you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperiorInsight:

    ice4blood I'm just asking but why not use that acccount? Why do you want to go undercover and hide?

    truly fascinating......

    i don't suppose you would tell me the truth if i asked how old you are, would you?

     
    Bluefin
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    Posted: Aug. 23, 2010 - 1:45 PM ET #80

    Back to the game if you guys need a rules official I'm available I even hold the cash and your car keys while you play.No Worries makes you itchy hearing this talk .

    I wanted  to put together a covers tournament were all the bullshit stops and those that play on all levels can get in on the action above board handicaps verified, and a pro divsion. 3 day thing reporting the results on Covers for the 1st 2 days then holding a Calcutta last day, but no one seemed to interested.Maybe Covers would put up some do ray me for the publicity I have a perfect course we could take right over cheap, great course,great facility,great food plenty of place right on the course to stay and cheap.

    The idea of gamblers golf tournament always seemed to appeal to me.The calcutta could be huge with the right group  

    Reply
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    Back to the game if you guys need a rules official I'm available I even hold the cash and your car keys while you play.No Worries makes you itchy hearing this talk .

    I wanted  to put together a covers tournament were all the bullshit stops and those that play on all levels can get in on the action above board handicaps verified, and a pro divsion. 3 day thing reporting the results on Covers for the 1st 2 days then holding a Calcutta last day, but no one seemed to interested.Maybe Covers would put up some do ray me for the publicity I have a perfect course we could take right over cheap, great course,great facility,great food plenty of place right on the course to stay and cheap.

    The idea of gamblers golf tournament always seemed to appeal to me.The calcutta could be huge with the right group  

     
    Yumdog
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    Posted: Aug. 23, 2010 - 4:28 PM ET #81

     77  He has been shooting close to that with his vision 100% ...
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     77  He has been shooting close to that with his vision 100% ...
     
    SuperiorInsight
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    Posted: Aug. 23, 2010 - 5:05 PM ET #82

    SuperiorInsight View Space | Blog | Friends | Playbook
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    #237
    Posted: 8/19/2010 5:40:34 AM
    QUOTE Originally Posted by ApocalypseLater:

     

    see, this is exactly why i think this was an interesting topic... that's a great question!

    first off, i would have to ask... how do you determine the "top 100 poker players in the world"?  is it based on tournament winnings?  all earnings?  consistent top finishes?  public opinion?

    beyond that, i think there are two ways to look at it...

    1) obviously guys like Phil Ivey and Doyle Brunson would be among the favorites... first, because they are popular public personalities, and second because they are at the highest skill level...

    2) a smart oddsmaker would not skew the field very much from top to bottom... allow the public to load up on the favorites, because, when it comes down to it, everyone would have a fairly equal chance of winning the whole thing... not truly equal, but also not as skewed as most people would like to believe...

     

    just my opinion... remember, you are going to have guys like Daniel Negreanu, Tom Dwan, Mike Matusow, Eric Seidel, Chris Hansen, Jesus Ferguson, Eric Lindgren, Johnny Chan, Patrick Antonius, Men the Master, etc.... it is a pretty deep field... there is very little separating the top 20-50 players... so it would come down to who gets the cards at the right time...

    the only reason to skew the top few players is because of name recognition and public foolishness...

    let's compare the typing. These are three different posts that you made. You don't ever use Captial letters in your sentences BESDIES when naming people. You always use short paragraphs and always seem to press the enter button. Another thing is you always end your sentencce is .....

    First Post

    for those interested in basketball analysis (i know... what site do i think i am on, right?)...

    tonight's officials are 4-0 SU and 3-1 ATS favoring the home team in the playoffs... same crew that was assigned to Bos-Orl game 6 (leading Donaghy to suggest Orlando should get their golf clubs ready)... and also game 1 of this series (where Ray Allen and Tony Allen were hit with 5 fouls in the first 10 minutes of the game, leaving nobody to defend Kobe for the rest of the game)... both Pierce and Allen spent most of the game in foul trouble...

    these refs have one job in the NBA... get the home team a win...

     

    Cs are the better team, and i never bet ON the refs, and i rarely bet ON the inferior team... but i do stay away from any big bets when i know i am against them...

    fair warning...

     

    Another Post

    i never said this series was over... YOU said the series was over after game 3, and that anyone who had money on Boston should buy out of their bet laying (-300) on the Lakers...

    anybody who followed your advice had a gun to their head after game 5... whereas, anyone who followed my advice was able to cash out their bet at (-110) instead of (-300)... guaranteed profit...

    since i was already up 13 units, i decided to ride my bets...

    but unlike you, i have never said the series was over...

    Last Post

    Mods... pure and simple... i'm giving you 12 hours...

    ultimatum time... get your shit together or i'm outta here... and while i know that is exactly what you want... some of your most respected cappers do not want me to leave, and are going to be really fucking pissed when they find out that i left because you guys failed to ban someone who obviously should have been banned about 10 death threats ago...

     

    https://www.covers.com/postingforum/post01/showmessage.aspx?spt=41&sub=100770477&page=3

    Post #12, 47, 51

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    SuperiorInsight View Space | Blog | Friends | Playbook
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    #237
    Posted: 8/19/2010 5:40:34 AM
    QUOTE Originally Posted by ApocalypseLater:

     

    see, this is exactly why i think this was an interesting topic... that's a great question!

    first off, i would have to ask... how do you determine the "top 100 poker players in the world"?  is it based on tournament winnings?  all earnings?  consistent top finishes?  public opinion?

    beyond that, i think there are two ways to look at it...

    1) obviously guys like Phil Ivey and Doyle Brunson would be among the favorites... first, because they are popular public personalities, and second because they are at the highest skill level...

    2) a smart oddsmaker would not skew the field very much from top to bottom... allow the public to load up on the favorites, because, when it comes down to it, everyone would have a fairly equal chance of winning the whole thing... not truly equal, but also not as skewed as most people would like to believe...

     

    just my opinion... remember, you are going to have guys like Daniel Negreanu, Tom Dwan, Mike Matusow, Eric Seidel, Chris Hansen, Jesus Ferguson, Eric Lindgren, Johnny Chan, Patrick Antonius, Men the Master, etc.... it is a pretty deep field... there is very little separating the top 20-50 players... so it would come down to who gets the cards at the right time...

    the only reason to skew the top few players is because of name recognition and public foolishness...

    let's compare the typing. These are three different posts that you made. You don't ever use Captial letters in your sentences BESDIES when naming people. You always use short paragraphs and always seem to press the enter button. Another thing is you always end your sentencce is .....

    First Post

    for those interested in basketball analysis (i know... what site do i think i am on, right?)...

    tonight's officials are 4-0 SU and 3-1 ATS favoring the home team in the playoffs... same crew that was assigned to Bos-Orl game 6 (leading Donaghy to suggest Orlando should get their golf clubs ready)... and also game 1 of this series (where Ray Allen and Tony Allen were hit with 5 fouls in the first 10 minutes of the game, leaving nobody to defend Kobe for the rest of the game)... both Pierce and Allen spent most of the game in foul trouble...

    these refs have one job in the NBA... get the home team a win...

     

    Cs are the better team, and i never bet ON the refs, and i rarely bet ON the inferior team... but i do stay away from any big bets when i know i am against them...

    fair warning...

     

    Another Post

    i never said this series was over... YOU said the series was over after game 3, and that anyone who had money on Boston should buy out of their bet laying (-300) on the Lakers...

    anybody who followed your advice had a gun to their head after game 5... whereas, anyone who followed my advice was able to cash out their bet at (-110) instead of (-300)... guaranteed profit...

    since i was already up 13 units, i decided to ride my bets...

    but unlike you, i have never said the series was over...

    Last Post

    Mods... pure and simple... i'm giving you 12 hours...

    ultimatum time... get your shit together or i'm outta here... and while i know that is exactly what you want... some of your most respected cappers do not want me to leave, and are going to be really fucking pissed when they find out that i left because you guys failed to ban someone who obviously should have been banned about 10 death threats ago...

     

    https://www.covers.com/postingforum/post01/showmessage.aspx?spt=41&sub=100770477&page=3

    Post #12, 47, 51

     
    SuperiorInsight
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    Posted: Aug. 23, 2010 - 5:08 PM ET #83

  • For each and every one of those 4 accounts, it was made by the same IP address. So you can say what you want from that.
  • Read post 237, 239. 
  • You guys have the same personality, type the EXACT SAME WAY IN EVERY ASPECT and sorry to say but there is nothing you can say to defend yourself. 
  • Welcome back ice4blood
  • You always have ..... in the middle of your sentence. Or you end your sentence in .....
  • Never ever capilitize the first letter in your sentence.
  • Always have very short paragraphs.
  • Both you guys have a extrememly strong personality.
  • Face the facts, face the music. Welcome back ice4blood
  •  

    It's basic simple COMMON SENSE. Even a 5 year old can figure this out. Your perosnality is SO SO strong, it's easy to figure it out.

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  • For each and every one of those 4 accounts, it was made by the same IP address. So you can say what you want from that.
  • Read post 237, 239. 
  • You guys have the same personality, type the EXACT SAME WAY IN EVERY ASPECT and sorry to say but there is nothing you can say to defend yourself. 
  • Welcome back ice4blood
  • You always have ..... in the middle of your sentence. Or you end your sentence in .....
  • Never ever capilitize the first letter in your sentence.
  • Always have very short paragraphs.
  • Both you guys have a extrememly strong personality.
  • Face the facts, face the music. Welcome back ice4blood
  •  

    It's basic simple COMMON SENSE. Even a 5 year old can figure this out. Your perosnality is SO SO strong, it's easy to figure it out.

     
    SuperiorInsight
    SuperiorInsight
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    Posted: Aug. 25, 2010 - 8:43 AM ET #84

    Exactly............nothing to say.
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    Exactly............nothing to say.
     
    NoWorries21
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    Posted: Aug. 25, 2010 - 9:51 AM ET #85

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluefin:

    Back to the game if you guys need a rules official I'm available I even hold the cash and your car keys while you play.No Worries makes you itchy hearing this talk .

    I wanted  to put together a covers tournament were all the bullshit stops and those that play on all levels can get in on the action above board handicaps verified, and a pro divsion. 3 day thing reporting the results on Covers for the 1st 2 days then holding a Calcutta last day, but no one seemed to interested.Maybe Covers would put up some do ray me for the publicity I have a perfect course we could take right over cheap, great course,great facility,great food plenty of place right on the course to stay and cheap.

    The idea of gamblers golf tournament always seemed to appeal to me.The calcutta could be huge with the right group  

    I think its funny that no one replies to me. Both of them talk a ton of crap but wont play. Its just funny. Gotta be kids.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluefin:

    Back to the game if you guys need a rules official I'm available I even hold the cash and your car keys while you play.No Worries makes you itchy hearing this talk .

    I wanted  to put together a covers tournament were all the bullshit stops and those that play on all levels can get in on the action above board handicaps verified, and a pro divsion. 3 day thing reporting the results on Covers for the 1st 2 days then holding a Calcutta last day, but no one seemed to interested.Maybe Covers would put up some do ray me for the publicity I have a perfect course we could take right over cheap, great course,great facility,great food plenty of place right on the course to stay and cheap.

    The idea of gamblers golf tournament always seemed to appeal to me.The calcutta could be huge with the right group  

    I think its funny that no one replies to me. Both of them talk a ton of crap but wont play. Its just funny. Gotta be kids.

     
    Bluefin
    Bluefin
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    Posted: Aug. 25, 2010 - 9:56 AM ET #86

    Very few in golf look for an even game everyone wants the edge I guess they know you are way to good for them.
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    Very few in golf look for an even game everyone wants the edge I guess they know you are way to good for them.
     
    ApocalypseLater
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    Posted: Aug. 25, 2010 - 1:23 PM ET #87

    Quote Originally Posted by Yumdog:

     77  He has been shooting close to that with his vision 100% ...

    my point exactly!  and guys who practice and play blind all the time can't break 80 on kiddie-courses, so how is a guy who has never played a blind round supposed to break 80 on a PGA course...

    i guess all of my logic is wasted on this topic...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yumdog:

     77  He has been shooting close to that with his vision 100% ...

    my point exactly!  and guys who practice and play blind all the time can't break 80 on kiddie-courses, so how is a guy who has never played a blind round supposed to break 80 on a PGA course...

    i guess all of my logic is wasted on this topic...

     
    ApocalypseLater
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    Posted: Aug. 25, 2010 - 1:26 PM ET #88

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperiorInsight:

  • For each and every one of those 4 accounts, it was made by the same IP address. So you can say what you want from that.
  •  

    It's basic simple COMMON SENSE. Even a 5 year old can figure this out. Your perosnality is SO SO strong, it's easy to figure it out.

    look bud!  i have one computer, in one house, with one IP address... it never changes... lived here for 20 years, and not moving any time soon... and you are really one to talk about having a "strong personality"... i mean it was funny for awhile, but what is this all about, really?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperiorInsight:

  • For each and every one of those 4 accounts, it was made by the same IP address. So you can say what you want from that.
  •  

    It's basic simple COMMON SENSE. Even a 5 year old can figure this out. Your perosnality is SO SO strong, it's easy to figure it out.

    look bud!  i have one computer, in one house, with one IP address... it never changes... lived here for 20 years, and not moving any time soon... and you are really one to talk about having a "strong personality"... i mean it was funny for awhile, but what is this all about, really?

     
    ApocalypseLater
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    Posted: Aug. 25, 2010 - 1:27 PM ET #89

    i get it!  you don't like me... won't be losing any sleep over it...

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    i get it!  you don't like me... won't be losing any sleep over it...

     
    The Hawk
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    Posted: Aug. 26, 2010 - 10:26 PM ET #90

    Your right. Unless................

    You're wrong.............

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    Your right. Unless................

    You're wrong.............

     
    lifemisspent
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    Posted: Aug. 26, 2010 - 10:33 PM ET #91

    Not hidding dude, im here.................you took a while to respond to my last reply so figured you bailed...............You are a pro who plays on tours, Im a good amateur who would be playing in your home state, but Im a scratch...............If you want to play for fun or a few bucks thats cool with me.........

     

     

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    Not hidding dude, im here.................you took a while to respond to my last reply so figured you bailed...............You are a pro who plays on tours, Im a good amateur who would be playing in your home state, but Im a scratch...............If you want to play for fun or a few bucks thats cool with me.........

     

     

     
    SuperiorInsight
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    Posted: Aug. 26, 2010 - 10:46 PM ET #92

    Quote Originally Posted by lifemisspent:

    Not hidding dude, im here.................you took a while to respond to my last reply so figured you bailed...............You are a pro who plays on tours, Im a good amateur who would be playing in your home state, but Im a scratch...............If you want to play for fun or a few bucks thats cool with me.........

     

     

    Im a pro on tours.....what are you talking about. I'm a 2 handicapper with my good drives going around 325 yards. I'd love to play you, just for chump change though. 10k is fine with me. Let me know

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    Quote Originally Posted by lifemisspent:

    Not hidding dude, im here.................you took a while to respond to my last reply so figured you bailed...............You are a pro who plays on tours, Im a good amateur who would be playing in your home state, but Im a scratch...............If you want to play for fun or a few bucks thats cool with me.........

     

     

    Im a pro on tours.....what are you talking about. I'm a 2 handicapper with my good drives going around 325 yards. I'd love to play you, just for chump change though. 10k is fine with me. Let me know

     
    lifemisspent
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    Posted: Aug. 27, 2010 - 7:38 AM ET #93

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperiorInsight:

    Im a pro on tours.....what are you talking about. I'm a 2 handicapper with my good drives going around 325 yards. I'd love to play you, just for chump change though. 10k is fine with me. Let me know

     

    Why do you have no shame ? You humiliate yourself over and over again.......This is about the fourht straight time you have given non sensical answers . You know nothing about golf and have never even played golf. It's doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure this out based on your comments.

    Go away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperiorInsight:

    Im a pro on tours.....what are you talking about. I'm a 2 handicapper with my good drives going around 325 yards. I'd love to play you, just for chump change though. 10k is fine with me. Let me know

     

    Why do you have no shame ? You humiliate yourself over and over again.......This is about the fourht straight time you have given non sensical answers . You know nothing about golf and have never even played golf. It's doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure this out based on your comments.

    Go away.

     
    SuperiorInsight
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    Posted: Aug. 27, 2010 - 12:36 PM ET #94

    Quote Originally Posted by lifemisspent:

     

    Why do you have no shame ? You humiliate yourself over and over again.......This is about the fourht straight time you have given non sensical answers . You know nothing about golf and have never even played golf. It's doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure this out based on your comments.

    Go away.

    Really dude? Is that your best defense for yourself? You want to play a golf match for money? What the fuck is wrong with you. Your so off topic that you should get slaped into a coma

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    Quote Originally Posted by lifemisspent:

     

    Why do you have no shame ? You humiliate yourself over and over again.......This is about the fourht straight time you have given non sensical answers . You know nothing about golf and have never even played golf. It's doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure this out based on your comments.

    Go away.

    Really dude? Is that your best defense for yourself? You want to play a golf match for money? What the fuck is wrong with you. Your so off topic that you should get slaped into a coma

     
    SlimSem
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    Posted: Aug. 27, 2010 - 1:21 PM ET #95

    I cant believe this thread is still going on...

    obviously superior has no clue what hes talking about when it comes to golf.  A real 2 handicapper knows that it doesnt matter how far their drives go when they hit them "good"
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    I cant believe this thread is still going on...

    obviously superior has no clue what hes talking about when it comes to golf.  A real 2 handicapper knows that it doesnt matter how far their drives go when they hit them "good"
     
    lifemisspent
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    Posted: Aug. 27, 2010 - 2:54 PM ET #96

    I really don't want to go over this point by point .............But superior must be in the guiness book of world records as the first 2 handicap to play on a pro tour, ever.

    He tried to quantify how good of a golfer he is by saying " I shot 72 and 73 my last two rounds but that was playing from the front tees and the course was playing short. So he has the game backwards , it's such a joke for me to waste my time responding to this idiocy...........but it's like just having to look at a car wreck, I cant help it.

     

     

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    I really don't want to go over this point by point .............But superior must be in the guiness book of world records as the first 2 handicap to play on a pro tour, ever.

    He tried to quantify how good of a golfer he is by saying " I shot 72 and 73 my last two rounds but that was playing from the front tees and the course was playing short. So he has the game backwards , it's such a joke for me to waste my time responding to this idiocy...........but it's like just having to look at a car wreck, I cant help it.

     

     

     
    SuperiorInsight
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    Posted: Aug. 28, 2010 - 5:31 AM ET #97

    Quote Originally Posted by lifemisspent:

    I really don't want to go over this point by point .............But superior must be in the guiness book of world records as the first 2 handicap to play on a pro tour, ever.

    He tried to quantify how good of a golfer he is by saying " I shot 72 and 73 my last two rounds but that was playing from the front tees and the course was playing short. So he has the game backwards , it's such a joke for me to waste my time responding to this idiocy...........but it's like just having to look at a car wreck, I cant help it.

     

     

    You keep mentioning pro tour? I never did say I was a pro. Why the fuck do you keep menioning that? Straight fucken ture moron you are. It depends on who I play, determines the tee. If I play with business, I'm not going to be the only player thats playing from the blue.

    10k lets play. Set the time and place. Let me know

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    Quote Originally Posted by lifemisspent:

    I really don't want to go over this point by point .............But superior must be in the guiness book of world records as the first 2 handicap to play on a pro tour, ever.

    He tried to quantify how good of a golfer he is by saying " I shot 72 and 73 my last two rounds but that was playing from the front tees and the course was playing short. So he has the game backwards , it's such a joke for me to waste my time responding to this idiocy...........but it's like just having to look at a car wreck, I cant help it.

     

     

    You keep mentioning pro tour? I never did say I was a pro. Why the fuck do you keep menioning that? Straight fucken ture moron you are. It depends on who I play, determines the tee. If I play with business, I'm not going to be the only player thats playing from the blue.

    10k lets play. Set the time and place. Let me know

     
    SuperiorInsight
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    Posted: Aug. 28, 2010 - 5:33 AM ET #98

    Quote Originally Posted by lifemisspent:

    I really don't want to go over this point by point .............But superior must be in the guiness book of world records as the first 2 handicap to play on a pro tour, ever.

    He tried to quantify how good of a golfer he is by saying " I shot 72 and 73 my last two rounds but that was playing from the front tees and the course was playing short. So he has the game backwards , it's such a joke for me to waste my time responding to this idiocy...........but it's like just having to look at a car wreck, I cant help it.

     

     

    You are so OWNED right it's actually quite funny. Pro tour this and pro tour that. You make like I should worshop your opinion.

    Funny is what you really are. LOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by lifemisspent:

    I really don't want to go over this point by point .............But superior must be in the guiness book of world records as the first 2 handicap to play on a pro tour, ever.

    He tried to quantify how good of a golfer he is by saying " I shot 72 and 73 my last two rounds but that was playing from the front tees and the course was playing short. So he has the game backwards , it's such a joke for me to waste my time responding to this idiocy...........but it's like just having to look at a car wreck, I cant help it.

     

     

    You are so OWNED right it's actually quite funny. Pro tour this and pro tour that. You make like I should worshop your opinion.

    Funny is what you really are. LOL

     
    lifemisspent
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    Posted: Aug. 28, 2010 - 7:42 AM ET #99

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperiorInsight:

    Im a pro on tours.....what are you talking about. I'm a 2 handicapper with my good drives going around 325 yards. I'd love to play you, just for chump change though. 10k is fine with me. Let me know

     

    Then he says "

    "You keep mentioning pro tour? I never did say I was a pro."

     

    You are sick dude, you have real problems. Good luck with them, medication can do wonders these days, I hope you find the help you so badly need. Hang in there.

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperiorInsight:

    Im a pro on tours.....what are you talking about. I'm a 2 handicapper with my good drives going around 325 yards. I'd love to play you, just for chump change though. 10k is fine with me. Let me know

     

    Then he says "

    "You keep mentioning pro tour? I never did say I was a pro."

     

    You are sick dude, you have real problems. Good luck with them, medication can do wonders these days, I hope you find the help you so badly need. Hang in there.

     

     
     
    Bluefin
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    Posted: Aug. 28, 2010 - 9:00 AM ET #100

    Lifemisspent Go play the guy if you have the 10k see if he shows up could be a good match, the hustlers challenge you pick the place I'll pick the course and the tee's bring a third party and have at it.We'll run a Calccuta from right here. You may be confusing your challengers with that badass No Worries. I'd throttle back if you thinking of playing him. I think that striker is for real. 
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    Lifemisspent Go play the guy if you have the 10k see if he shows up could be a good match, the hustlers challenge you pick the place I'll pick the course and the tee's bring a third party and have at it.We'll run a Calccuta from right here. You may be confusing your challengers with that badass No Worries. I'd throttle back if you thinking of playing him. I think that striker is for real. 
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