Margaret Thatcher said the problem with socialism is you eventually run out of other people's money. If taxpayers move out of cities/states that depend on tax dollars this much we are going to see this more and more (Scranton, Stockton, etc)
0
Margaret Thatcher said the problem with socialism is you eventually run out of other people's money. If taxpayers move out of cities/states that depend on tax dollars this much we are going to see this more and more (Scranton, Stockton, etc)
Well think it over, the reasons arent tough to understand.
There are a bunch of older cities in PA and other states like Ohio, Indiana, Michigan etc etc etc that are "rotting" like this one.
The reason these cities are falling apart are that most times the historical core businesses that kept the cities thriving have been shipped off to China or Mexico or anywhere else corporations can cut wages to make more money.
Then you have a dwindling tax base, dwindling property values, the city funds become smaller and smaller and even though the number of workers it takes to run a city declines, there is still basic costs of functioning and operating a city..which this exact article brings to light.
Why would the city need to cut wages to 7 bucks an hour? That isnt a slight cut or a little bit of sacrifice for all to keep things going, this is offering fast food wages to high need local government workers.
Pointing fingers at unions is absurd, the decay of these cities have been going on for a decade plus...and is indicative of the "rotting" of the middle class in this country.
So it is great that corporations can abandon communities and seek out the lowest cost of labor but the damage they leave behind is not so easy to abandon for people who have family, houses, obligations and a history/life living there.
This sort of story is saddening and sick, and there are multitudes of other cities with the exact same issues. It doesnt mean other cities are paying 7.50 an hour, but it means that services have been scrapped, the tax base gone, the destruction and ruin remain.
I guess the solution to some here would be to bribe a corporation by giving more freebies so they will come and then run to another town when another community gives even better freebies down the road.
0
Well think it over, the reasons arent tough to understand.
There are a bunch of older cities in PA and other states like Ohio, Indiana, Michigan etc etc etc that are "rotting" like this one.
The reason these cities are falling apart are that most times the historical core businesses that kept the cities thriving have been shipped off to China or Mexico or anywhere else corporations can cut wages to make more money.
Then you have a dwindling tax base, dwindling property values, the city funds become smaller and smaller and even though the number of workers it takes to run a city declines, there is still basic costs of functioning and operating a city..which this exact article brings to light.
Why would the city need to cut wages to 7 bucks an hour? That isnt a slight cut or a little bit of sacrifice for all to keep things going, this is offering fast food wages to high need local government workers.
Pointing fingers at unions is absurd, the decay of these cities have been going on for a decade plus...and is indicative of the "rotting" of the middle class in this country.
So it is great that corporations can abandon communities and seek out the lowest cost of labor but the damage they leave behind is not so easy to abandon for people who have family, houses, obligations and a history/life living there.
This sort of story is saddening and sick, and there are multitudes of other cities with the exact same issues. It doesnt mean other cities are paying 7.50 an hour, but it means that services have been scrapped, the tax base gone, the destruction and ruin remain.
I guess the solution to some here would be to bribe a corporation by giving more freebies so they will come and then run to another town when another community gives even better freebies down the road.
My comment about the unions was simply to state that if the town is all union folk and bosses then they can try and turn things around themselves. They can elect each other as officials and set about restoring the community to financial prosperity. I guess I would like to see how such an experiment would play out where a town is 100% union and what they would do to turn things around. In this secenario would they see companies in the same light that they do now and I an assuming that they feel that companies owe them something.
I would rather bribe a company to stay and keep people employed and shore up the community than see them leave......thats just my 2 cents.
While the unions are not the source of all the issues I do not think one can simply point to corps and say they are the sole problem either.
Wall, I do not like to see jobs go oversees and I am in an industry that has been hit hard by outsourcing.
Cities, states and this country as a whole has to cater to these types of companies to try and keep their workforce here.
My industry has seen a fair share of reshoring recently so maybe the pendulum will swing in our favor for awhile.
Time will tell and for every anti-business law that gets passed you can probably kiss more jobs goodbye.
0
My comment about the unions was simply to state that if the town is all union folk and bosses then they can try and turn things around themselves. They can elect each other as officials and set about restoring the community to financial prosperity. I guess I would like to see how such an experiment would play out where a town is 100% union and what they would do to turn things around. In this secenario would they see companies in the same light that they do now and I an assuming that they feel that companies owe them something.
I would rather bribe a company to stay and keep people employed and shore up the community than see them leave......thats just my 2 cents.
While the unions are not the source of all the issues I do not think one can simply point to corps and say they are the sole problem either.
Wall, I do not like to see jobs go oversees and I am in an industry that has been hit hard by outsourcing.
Cities, states and this country as a whole has to cater to these types of companies to try and keep their workforce here.
My industry has seen a fair share of reshoring recently so maybe the pendulum will swing in our favor for awhile.
Time will tell and for every anti-business law that gets passed you can probably kiss more jobs goodbye.
and remember, I think 70% of all jobs are created by small companies not the large multi-nationals so the solution and or problem is not a one size fits all
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and remember, I think 70% of all jobs are created by small companies not the large multi-nationals so the solution and or problem is not a one size fits all
Well think it over, the reasons arent tough to understand.
There are a bunch of older cities in PA and other states like Ohio, Indiana, Michigan etc etc etc that are "rotting" like this one.
The reason these cities are falling apart are that most times the historical core businesses that kept the cities thriving have been shipped off to China or Mexico or anywhere else corporations can cut wages to make more money.
Then you have a dwindling tax base, dwindling property values, the city funds become smaller and smaller and even though the number of workers it takes to run a city declines, there is still basic costs of functioning and operating a city..which this exact article brings to light.
Why would the city need to cut wages to 7 bucks an hour? That isnt a slight cut or a little bit of sacrifice for all to keep things going, this is offering fast food wages to high need local government workers.
Pointing fingers at unions is absurd, the decay of these cities have been going on for a decade plus...and is indicative of the "rotting" of the middle class in this country.
So it is great that corporations can abandon communities and seek out the lowest cost of labor but the damage they leave behind is not so easy to abandon for people who have family, houses, obligations and a history/life living there.
This sort of story is saddening and sick, and there are multitudes of other cities with the exact same issues. It doesnt mean other cities are paying 7.50 an hour, but it means that services have been scrapped, the tax base gone, the destruction and ruin remain.
I guess the solution to some here would be to bribe a corporation by giving more freebies so they will come and then run to another town when another community gives even better freebies down the road.
I think it would be great if companies stayed here but I don't own any company nor am I responsible for a budget of that size.
My first objective as a company owner is to maximize my profit. If that means shipping jobs overseas then that is what I am going to do.
No one starts a business to keep a city/state economy going. Bill Gates and Warren Buffett had to become billionaires before they could become philanthropist.
0
Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:
Well think it over, the reasons arent tough to understand.
There are a bunch of older cities in PA and other states like Ohio, Indiana, Michigan etc etc etc that are "rotting" like this one.
The reason these cities are falling apart are that most times the historical core businesses that kept the cities thriving have been shipped off to China or Mexico or anywhere else corporations can cut wages to make more money.
Then you have a dwindling tax base, dwindling property values, the city funds become smaller and smaller and even though the number of workers it takes to run a city declines, there is still basic costs of functioning and operating a city..which this exact article brings to light.
Why would the city need to cut wages to 7 bucks an hour? That isnt a slight cut or a little bit of sacrifice for all to keep things going, this is offering fast food wages to high need local government workers.
Pointing fingers at unions is absurd, the decay of these cities have been going on for a decade plus...and is indicative of the "rotting" of the middle class in this country.
So it is great that corporations can abandon communities and seek out the lowest cost of labor but the damage they leave behind is not so easy to abandon for people who have family, houses, obligations and a history/life living there.
This sort of story is saddening and sick, and there are multitudes of other cities with the exact same issues. It doesnt mean other cities are paying 7.50 an hour, but it means that services have been scrapped, the tax base gone, the destruction and ruin remain.
I guess the solution to some here would be to bribe a corporation by giving more freebies so they will come and then run to another town when another community gives even better freebies down the road.
I think it would be great if companies stayed here but I don't own any company nor am I responsible for a budget of that size.
My first objective as a company owner is to maximize my profit. If that means shipping jobs overseas then that is what I am going to do.
No one starts a business to keep a city/state economy going. Bill Gates and Warren Buffett had to become billionaires before they could become philanthropist.
The reason these cities are falling apart are that most times the
historical core businesses that kept the cities thriving have been
shipped off to China or Mexico or anywhere else corporations can cut
wages to make more money.
Then you have a
dwindling tax base, dwindling property values, the city funds become
smaller and smaller and even though the number of workers it takes to
run a city declines, there is still basic costs of functioning and
operating a city..which this exact article brings to light.
-------------------------------------------------
FALSE
Although, if it were true, that would be a good thing, rather than a problem as you suggest
Estimated median house or condo value in 2009: $110,700 (it was $78,400 in 2000)
scroll further down and you can click on mortgage data year by year, and the "values" of RE increased YoY throughout the decade
Property values SHOULD BE decreasing, so it begs the question, why were they increasing every single year, if jobs were leaving the area?
0
The reason these cities are falling apart are that most times the
historical core businesses that kept the cities thriving have been
shipped off to China or Mexico or anywhere else corporations can cut
wages to make more money.
Then you have a
dwindling tax base, dwindling property values, the city funds become
smaller and smaller and even though the number of workers it takes to
run a city declines, there is still basic costs of functioning and
operating a city..which this exact article brings to light.
-------------------------------------------------
FALSE
Although, if it were true, that would be a good thing, rather than a problem as you suggest
yes. stop taxing productive activities like working, and start funding government from the inherent value in the local community that is derived from the land (which nobody produces) and the community work done by/for the commons (roads,transit, utilities, infrastructure)
I live in one of those "old" pennsylvania towns. Why haven't all our global industry production facilities fled this area? I remember Hershey foods threatening to leave for Mexico, up from Hershey pa, and i think even they remained. here in Lancaster, there is too many big baller global industry to list,,,,,,all still here. Well, except for Armstrong, they folded up a large part of their operations after the Asbestos lawsuits, but they still have a large plant here
0
Any ideas?
yes. stop taxing productive activities like working, and start funding government from the inherent value in the local community that is derived from the land (which nobody produces) and the community work done by/for the commons (roads,transit, utilities, infrastructure)
I live in one of those "old" pennsylvania towns. Why haven't all our global industry production facilities fled this area? I remember Hershey foods threatening to leave for Mexico, up from Hershey pa, and i think even they remained. here in Lancaster, there is too many big baller global industry to list,,,,,,all still here. Well, except for Armstrong, they folded up a large part of their operations after the Asbestos lawsuits, but they still have a large plant here
All the more reason that people should've been paid according to their contributions from the start rather than being paid according to their needs.
The latter is what caused this problem.>>>
Actually, you have no idea what caused the problem. Would it surprise you to know that it is pretty much everything that was said in this thread.
A mixture of outsourcing, a failure of US adaptation to a global economy and a global (and cheaper workforce), a change in taxation of corporations, an increase in expenses for cities, a change in education funding requirements which causes finanacial strain for local economies, etc. etc. etc.
But by all means, keep parroting right wing talking points and blaming the US government worker.
0
Bowlslit said: <<<@WSC
All the more reason that people should've been paid according to their contributions from the start rather than being paid according to their needs.
The latter is what caused this problem.>>>
Actually, you have no idea what caused the problem. Would it surprise you to know that it is pretty much everything that was said in this thread.
A mixture of outsourcing, a failure of US adaptation to a global economy and a global (and cheaper workforce), a change in taxation of corporations, an increase in expenses for cities, a change in education funding requirements which causes finanacial strain for local economies, etc. etc. etc.
But by all means, keep parroting right wing talking points and blaming the US government worker.
get rid of all public workers, let people in each city take their own trash to the dumps, get their water from lakes or rivers, fight their own fires with garden hoses{thats right you cant do that, because you now get your water from the lake} be your own police officer, get rid of the jails {am sure be easy would like that, then he can sell his pot on the street corners} get rid of the court system, get rid of the roads etc etc etc. Hey why dont we just go back to living in the 1800's Honestly some of you guys on this site are just plain friggin stupid.
am sure bowlslit will chime in with his usual we dont have the money bullshit, all while making 100k a year selling insurance. Heres a thought, why dont we have money in the country? Could it be because there are no jobs in the country? why are there no jobs in the country? could it be because the filthy pig corporations are creating all the jobs in other countries? If people were working and making money they would be paying for public services that in case you guys didnt know is what a country like ours is about. If you dont like living in a free country with modern public services, there are a lot of countries you boneheads could move to, then maybe you will stop constantly crying about public service jobs and unions. Go work in somalia or ethiopia? you wont get all the m odern services you get in this country. See if your happy over there.
Everyday on this site its the same 10-15 people who do nothing but cry and complain about having to pay for modern services, that its become sickening to read.
Move if you dont like the type of society our country is about.
Bowlslit go try and peddle your insurance in a country that doesnt have modern shit
But you guys go right ahead and keep blaming the working man who just happens to have a job providing services to all of you on a daily basis, instead of blaming the real culprits, scumbag corporations who have killed our country and you can all thank your idol ronnie "worst president" reagan for starting the downfall.
The corporations must laugh their asses off, when they see people like you right wingers constantly defending them everyday. Take the blinders off.
lastly if you think that you can get all the public services that are out there done by private companies for less then what you pay in taxes, then you are either smoking crack or have gotton into beeasys stash of pot. You guys would be sick if you ever had to pay a private company for each public service you now get with your tax dollars.
some of you really need to grow up
0
get rid of all public workers, let people in each city take their own trash to the dumps, get their water from lakes or rivers, fight their own fires with garden hoses{thats right you cant do that, because you now get your water from the lake} be your own police officer, get rid of the jails {am sure be easy would like that, then he can sell his pot on the street corners} get rid of the court system, get rid of the roads etc etc etc. Hey why dont we just go back to living in the 1800's Honestly some of you guys on this site are just plain friggin stupid.
am sure bowlslit will chime in with his usual we dont have the money bullshit, all while making 100k a year selling insurance. Heres a thought, why dont we have money in the country? Could it be because there are no jobs in the country? why are there no jobs in the country? could it be because the filthy pig corporations are creating all the jobs in other countries? If people were working and making money they would be paying for public services that in case you guys didnt know is what a country like ours is about. If you dont like living in a free country with modern public services, there are a lot of countries you boneheads could move to, then maybe you will stop constantly crying about public service jobs and unions. Go work in somalia or ethiopia? you wont get all the m odern services you get in this country. See if your happy over there.
Everyday on this site its the same 10-15 people who do nothing but cry and complain about having to pay for modern services, that its become sickening to read.
Move if you dont like the type of society our country is about.
Bowlslit go try and peddle your insurance in a country that doesnt have modern shit
But you guys go right ahead and keep blaming the working man who just happens to have a job providing services to all of you on a daily basis, instead of blaming the real culprits, scumbag corporations who have killed our country and you can all thank your idol ronnie "worst president" reagan for starting the downfall.
The corporations must laugh their asses off, when they see people like you right wingers constantly defending them everyday. Take the blinders off.
lastly if you think that you can get all the public services that are out there done by private companies for less then what you pay in taxes, then you are either smoking crack or have gotton into beeasys stash of pot. You guys would be sick if you ever had to pay a private company for each public service you now get with your tax dollars.
The reason these cities are falling apart are that most times the
historical core businesses that kept the cities thriving have been
shipped off to China or Mexico or anywhere else corporations can cut
wages to make more money.
Then you have a
dwindling tax base, dwindling property values, the city funds become
smaller and smaller and even though the number of workers it takes to
run a city declines, there is still basic costs of functioning and
operating a city..which this exact article brings to light.
-------------------------------------------------
FALSE
Although, if it were true, that would be a good thing, rather than a problem as you suggest
Estimated median house or condo value in 2009: $110,700 (it was $78,400 in 2000)
scroll further down and you can click on mortgage data year by year, and the "values" of RE increased YoY throughout the decade
Property values SHOULD BE decreasing, so it begs the question, why were they increasing every single year, if jobs were leaving the area?
be easy, have prices fallen from 2009 to 2012? I would say positively they have.
Aside from that, what kind of tax base can you support on a 110k assessment average?
Over that same 10 yr period I am quite sure the cost of most all components for maintaining the city have gone DOWN too right?
Also, you do not really live in a town comparable to Scranton or Reading or Hazelton, Ive seen every one of these examples and Lancaster is not even close to the others mentioned and dramatically less reliant on the industry that Reading and Scranton was...notice I said WAS..not is.
Look at the median income for Scranton relative to the state in general..the median income of Scranton is below the poverty line nationally in 2009. The median property value for Scranton is 40% plus lower than the average for the state.
Scroll down and see the graph on home sales, tell me where it is trending? down..
I think the real problem with Scranton is that 75% of the population is Catholic.
Also, compare Scranton and Lancaster for common industries. Lancaster has manufacturing and construction making 35% of industry, Scranton has Construction, Healthcare, education, public administration and food service to make up 32%.
Which jobs would you prefer to have as the anchor of your community?
I do agree, both communities are quite low, but dont the Amish contribute to property taxes to a good extent vs aging row homes and fast food workers?
0
Quote Originally Posted by be easy:
The reason these cities are falling apart are that most times the
historical core businesses that kept the cities thriving have been
shipped off to China or Mexico or anywhere else corporations can cut
wages to make more money.
Then you have a
dwindling tax base, dwindling property values, the city funds become
smaller and smaller and even though the number of workers it takes to
run a city declines, there is still basic costs of functioning and
operating a city..which this exact article brings to light.
-------------------------------------------------
FALSE
Although, if it were true, that would be a good thing, rather than a problem as you suggest
Estimated median house or condo value in 2009: $110,700 (it was $78,400 in 2000)
scroll further down and you can click on mortgage data year by year, and the "values" of RE increased YoY throughout the decade
Property values SHOULD BE decreasing, so it begs the question, why were they increasing every single year, if jobs were leaving the area?
be easy, have prices fallen from 2009 to 2012? I would say positively they have.
Aside from that, what kind of tax base can you support on a 110k assessment average?
Over that same 10 yr period I am quite sure the cost of most all components for maintaining the city have gone DOWN too right?
Also, you do not really live in a town comparable to Scranton or Reading or Hazelton, Ive seen every one of these examples and Lancaster is not even close to the others mentioned and dramatically less reliant on the industry that Reading and Scranton was...notice I said WAS..not is.
Look at the median income for Scranton relative to the state in general..the median income of Scranton is below the poverty line nationally in 2009. The median property value for Scranton is 40% plus lower than the average for the state.
Scroll down and see the graph on home sales, tell me where it is trending? down..
I think the real problem with Scranton is that 75% of the population is Catholic.
Also, compare Scranton and Lancaster for common industries. Lancaster has manufacturing and construction making 35% of industry, Scranton has Construction, Healthcare, education, public administration and food service to make up 32%.
Which jobs would you prefer to have as the anchor of your community?
I do agree, both communities are quite low, but dont the Amish contribute to property taxes to a good extent vs aging row homes and fast food workers?
But Wall the corporations deserve everything they make, because its the way the free market works and they are the job creators, only thing is they arent creating jobs in the country they sell their crap in.
Its all the middle class to blame for not working for less, not giving up vacations, health insurance and pensions. If those darn middle class workers would only work for low wages
0
But Wall the corporations deserve everything they make, because its the way the free market works and they are the job creators, only thing is they arent creating jobs in the country they sell their crap in.
Its all the middle class to blame for not working for less, not giving up vacations, health insurance and pensions. If those darn middle class workers would only work for low wages
I think the real problem with Scranton is that 75% of the population is Catholic.
welcome back wall
I do agree, both communities are quite low, but dont the Amish
contribute to property taxes to a good extent vs aging row homes and
fast food workers?
how does the flow chart work for 'property taxes'? They are guite local everywhere, no?
When you say Lancaster are you referring to the city or the county? There's no amish farms in the city limits(that i know of). They do not support the local governments revenues. My property taxes are fairly reasonable, as are my assessments with the tax man (27% lower then the spread appraises for) but i don't live in the city, i live in the rich white part of town, and oddly enough i pay lower taxes then my city counterparts.
as a hole, for my monthly nut that covers my forced escrow mortgage, P&I makes upabout 65% vs T&I makes up 35%
That is absurd. for every two dollars i pay to own some RE i owe one to the fucking government?
0
I think the real problem with Scranton is that 75% of the population is Catholic.
welcome back wall
I do agree, both communities are quite low, but dont the Amish
contribute to property taxes to a good extent vs aging row homes and
fast food workers?
how does the flow chart work for 'property taxes'? They are guite local everywhere, no?
When you say Lancaster are you referring to the city or the county? There's no amish farms in the city limits(that i know of). They do not support the local governments revenues. My property taxes are fairly reasonable, as are my assessments with the tax man (27% lower then the spread appraises for) but i don't live in the city, i live in the rich white part of town, and oddly enough i pay lower taxes then my city counterparts.
as a hole, for my monthly nut that covers my forced escrow mortgage, P&I makes upabout 65% vs T&I makes up 35%
That is absurd. for every two dollars i pay to own some RE i owe one to the fucking government?
Cutting spending is the solution. Raising taxes on the rich is not.
I would have more respect for the left if they would just admit the reason they want to raise taxes on the rich is because of social justice. "I don't have that stuff so I don't want you to have that stuff either."
Govt spending is so out of control raising the tax rates on the rich will do nothing. The left must know that.
I read somewhere that if the tax rates goes back to pre-Bush rates on everyone making over $250K enough tax revenue will be accumulated to pay for only ten days of the year.
I would assume the left's solution to that would be to raise taxes again.
0
Cutting spending is the solution. Raising taxes on the rich is not.
I would have more respect for the left if they would just admit the reason they want to raise taxes on the rich is because of social justice. "I don't have that stuff so I don't want you to have that stuff either."
Govt spending is so out of control raising the tax rates on the rich will do nothing. The left must know that.
I read somewhere that if the tax rates goes back to pre-Bush rates on everyone making over $250K enough tax revenue will be accumulated to pay for only ten days of the year.
I would assume the left's solution to that would be to raise taxes again.
I don't know nor do i really care about Scrantons particular reasons why they find themselves here. Harrisburg is under conservatorship by the state currently, because they are beyond bankrupt, and the fed circuit judge or whomever has to approve their bankruptcy, told them NO SOUP FOR YOU.
Their proximity and being the state capital, i bothered to read up on their problems. i posted the articles here before, so rather then just make blind assertions, one could research why they are here. Harrisburg went into heavy debt to fix and remodel their incinerator plant, and they tried some new technology from some green type start up, and shit went awry before they knew it they were way over budget with NOTHING to show for it. So while people make the crazy black woman mayor (who is crazy like she makes monkey faces sticking her tongue out from her 2nd floor window when media and protestors chant outside her offices)to be at fault and union pensions, Harrisburg is beyond broke for reasons outside your normal blame cards
But why does lancaster still have all these ancient, global production facilities here? Some of the worlds largest companies have production plants. I'd assume, that like any other reason business locates, is location location location. We are within a couple 100 miles of everything in the NE, stretching back the other way south and west of here as well. Now still, the union type workys that put in the shift work standing around at the machines, have still been downsized by productivity gains and advances in technology, i'd assume over the last 40 years, it's safe to say that any of that type of plant work that can be replaced with technology now requires at most 1 person where it used to require 4 ( i tend to think that this is a good thing, not a bad thing as everyone always crys and complains about. who the fuck wants to waste their life away standing in a factory, when a robot could do the work (or for those of you that buy all the MADE IN CHINA crap) some chinaman can do it for pennies and we will fund it's safe passage via the petroleum network military complex that the statists survive on
0
I don't know nor do i really care about Scrantons particular reasons why they find themselves here. Harrisburg is under conservatorship by the state currently, because they are beyond bankrupt, and the fed circuit judge or whomever has to approve their bankruptcy, told them NO SOUP FOR YOU.
Their proximity and being the state capital, i bothered to read up on their problems. i posted the articles here before, so rather then just make blind assertions, one could research why they are here. Harrisburg went into heavy debt to fix and remodel their incinerator plant, and they tried some new technology from some green type start up, and shit went awry before they knew it they were way over budget with NOTHING to show for it. So while people make the crazy black woman mayor (who is crazy like she makes monkey faces sticking her tongue out from her 2nd floor window when media and protestors chant outside her offices)to be at fault and union pensions, Harrisburg is beyond broke for reasons outside your normal blame cards
But why does lancaster still have all these ancient, global production facilities here? Some of the worlds largest companies have production plants. I'd assume, that like any other reason business locates, is location location location. We are within a couple 100 miles of everything in the NE, stretching back the other way south and west of here as well. Now still, the union type workys that put in the shift work standing around at the machines, have still been downsized by productivity gains and advances in technology, i'd assume over the last 40 years, it's safe to say that any of that type of plant work that can be replaced with technology now requires at most 1 person where it used to require 4 ( i tend to think that this is a good thing, not a bad thing as everyone always crys and complains about. who the fuck wants to waste their life away standing in a factory, when a robot could do the work (or for those of you that buy all the MADE IN CHINA crap) some chinaman can do it for pennies and we will fund it's safe passage via the petroleum network military complex that the statists survive on
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